Re: [GNC] Crypto trade directly - not converting to local currency first

[Michael or Penny Novack]

Are there any folks in Ithaca NY using gnucash to track the local 
"currency"? << or in the other places where a "local currency" is in 
use >> For those who don;t know what I am talking about, the "Ithaca 
Hour" is a work exchange currency. Nominally pegged at $10/US but 
there is not supposed to be currency exchange << is there a "black 
market" exchange rate? >>


Using a non-currency for trade is barter. 
https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420 sketches the reporting 
requirements for US taxpayers.


That is precisely why I used this particular example. While the "Ithaca 
hour" has a nominal exchange value, the way the IRS reckons, its value 
would be determined according to how used and how obtained. . The 
problem here is that the IRS is assuming that barter exchange is taking 
place "at fair market value" when in the case of something like the 
"Ithaca Hour", not so*. I bet the IRS has never decided how they want 
gains/losses accounted for. Because gains and losses would be a 
consequence of trying to place a "fair market value" on them.


Maybe they use the nominal value  << at the time it was supposed to be 
an estimate of the hourly rate averaged over all occupations; total 
pay/total hours >>


Michael D Novack

* I used to design/write/test software so an hour of my time had a fair 
market value of .. But I'd rather spend an hour designing/writing/ 
testing software than an hour digging a ditch. Perfectly willing to 
barter hours, It's simply a very different way of figuring "fair exchange".







___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Crypto trade directly - not converting to local currency first

[john]

> On May 23, 2022, at 5:32 AM, Michael or Penny Novack 
>  wrote:
> 
> Are there any folks in Ithaca NY using gnucash to track the local "currency"? 
> << or in the other places where a "local currency" is in use >> For those who 
> don;t know what I am talking about, the "Ithaca Hour" is a work exchange 
> currency. Nominally pegged at $10/US but there is not supposed to be currency 
> exchange << is there a "black market" exchange rate? >>

Using a non-currency for trade is barter. https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420 
 sketches the reporting requirements for 
US taxpayers.

Regards,
John Ralls
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Crypto trade directly - not converting to local currency first

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 5/23/2022 6:26 AM, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:


Realistically, if you are in situation where you want (and can!) treat
cryptos as full currencies, you'll likely be better served by abusing
another random currency in the list of known currencies and treat it as
btc/eth.   See:


Gnucash or other applications can be used exactly this was if the 
bookkeeping is for a "currency" that is not subject to exchange to other 
currencies (or not supposed to be exchanged)


Are there any folks in Ithaca NY using gnucash to track the local 
"currency"? << or in the other places where a "local currency" is in use 
>> For those who don;t know what I am talking about, the "Ithaca Hour" 
is a work exchange currency. Nominally pegged at $10/US but there is not 
supposed to be currency exchange << is there a "black market" exchange 
rate? >>


If no exchange is taking place, using any of the currency symbols not 
otherwise needed makes perfect sense to me and is not serious ":abuse". 
The meaning of ANY symbol is convention.


Since I asked about Ithaca, how about anybody here from Yap? There are 
also "ceremonial currencies" in other parts of the world. This is 
"money" used only for very specific/special exchanges. It might be 
possible to buy or sell for some other currency but this would be 
frowned upon -- normally acquired or expended in the exchanges for which 
meant. You should best think of them as "placeholders" for the special 
things they are exchanged for, land, women, etc.


The "Ithaca Hour" was supposed to be exchanged for somebody's time, 
treating everybody's time as of equal value. Again I have no idea what 
sort of "black market' unequal exchange might be taking place. The only 
place I ever visited that had a non-currency exchange going on there was 
no physical currency to mark the amount of time or things owed, just 
kept in people's heads << very small back of the beyond community >> 
They assured me that the place wasn't as poor as it appeared "on the 
books" because so much of their local economy wasn't in measured currency.


Michael D Novack


___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Crypto trade directly - not converting to local currency first

[Suseno Dermawan]

Thanks Mattia for the explanation,

I think I'll keep it as trade between stock and made a final expenses
adjustment in local currency.

Thank you

On Mon, 23 May 2022, 17:26 Mattia Rizzolo,  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> yes, in that example the 50 and the 4M are in local currency.
> Expenses (which are fondamentally a type of Equity) in gnucash can only
> be defined and valued in a Currency that is recognized by gnucash as
> such.
>
> Realistically, if you are in situation where you want (and can!) treat
> cryptos as full currencies, you'll likely be better served by abusing
> another random currency in the list of known currencies and treat it as
> btc/eth.   See:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2022-April/100780.html
> (which is a recent thread explaining why equities needs to be valued
> with a currency).
>
> On Sun, May 22, 2022 at 12:55:15AM +0700, Suseno Dermawan wrote:
> > Hi Mattia,
> >
> > Thank you for the explanation.
> >
> > just a couple question,
> > in this example:
> >
> > Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
> > Assets:ETH   456 8,934.38   4,074,079
> > Expenses:CryptoFees50
> > Trading:Crypto:BTC..
> > Trading:Crypto:ETH..
> >
> > is the value is in local currency (e.g. USD)? and expenses also in local
> > currency ?
> > because the trading place it charges the expenses in the crypto currency,
> > for example.
> > if trade BTC to ETH, then the expenses is in ETH,
> > if trade from ETH to BTC, the expenses is in BTC.
> >
> > if this is the case, then the expenses is converted to local currency ?
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Suseno
> >
> >
> > On Sat, May 21, 2022 at 11:49 PM Mattia Rizzolo 
> wrote:
> >
> > > Nothing particularly odd about that.  You'll have to do something like:
> > >
> > >
> > >tot shares   price   tot buy   tot sell
> > > Assets:BTC  -123
> > > Assets:ETH   456
> > > Trading:Crypto:BTC   123
> > > Trading:Crypto:ETH  -456
> > >
> > > (the Trading: splits should be created automatically, but regardless,
> > > that's how it'll look).
> > >
> > > leave empty the 3 columns on the right, just touch the first column
> > > labeled "tot shares"; that column is visible only for "Stock" or
> "Mutual
> > > fund" kind of accounts, which is what I already expect your accounts to
> > > be like.
> > >
> > > Then again, it might make sense to give value to those shares.  If so,
> > > you could do this:
> > >
> > > Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
> > > Assets:ETH   456 8,934.49   4,074,129
> > > Trading:Crypto:BTC..
> > > Trading:Crypto:ETH..
> > >
> > > (I made up the values of BTC and ETH here…)
> > >
> > >
> > > This will also make possible to track the relevant fees in doing such
> > > transaction:
> > >
> > > Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
> > > Assets:ETH   456 8,934.38   4,074,079
> > > Expenses:CryptoFees50
> > > Trading:Crypto:BTC..
> > > Trading:Crypto:ETH..
> > >
> > > That most likely make a lot of sense.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > That's something very commonly done when, for example, mutual funds are
> > > merged into each other, redefined, or something else.  Or when you
> > > instruct your asset management company to switch your investments from
> > > one fund to another without cashing out in-between.
> > > Something similar is also done when there are stock splitoffs (but it's
> > > not exactly the same).
> > >
> > >
> > > BTW, it's not possible to "add btc as a currency type", as the currency
> > > types in gnucash are hardcoded and only formal currencies as to defined
> > > by ISO 4217.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 20, 2022 at 07:10:22AM +0700, Suseno Dermawan wrote:
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > I've been wondering, is there a way to trade between 1 crypto token
> to
> > > > another directly?
> > > > My use case as follows:
> > > >
> > > > Ideally able to trade "btc -> eth" vice versa.
> > > >
> > > > But for now, I use the registering method as follows:
> > > >
> > > > "btc -> local currency -> eth" vice versa
> > > > Btc sell to local currency, then from local currency buy eth.
> > > >
> > > > Btw, I use crypto type as FUND.
> > > >
> > > > With using "btc - local currency - eth" way of registering the
> > > transaction,
> > > > I found that the loss n gain report is not really accurate.
> > > >
> > > > Is it possible to have btc to eth directly? I imagine this will need
> to
> > > add
> > > > both btc n eth as a currency type?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your help
> > > >
> > > > Suseno
> > > > ___
> > > > gnucash-user mailing list
> > > > gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> > > > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > > > 

Re: [GNC] Crypto trade directly - not converting to local currency first

[Mattia Rizzolo]

Hi,

yes, in that example the 50 and the 4M are in local currency.
Expenses (which are fondamentally a type of Equity) in gnucash can only
be defined and valued in a Currency that is recognized by gnucash as
such.

Realistically, if you are in situation where you want (and can!) treat
cryptos as full currencies, you'll likely be better served by abusing
another random currency in the list of known currencies and treat it as
btc/eth.   See:
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2022-April/100780.html
(which is a recent thread explaining why equities needs to be valued
with a currency).

On Sun, May 22, 2022 at 12:55:15AM +0700, Suseno Dermawan wrote:
> Hi Mattia,
> 
> Thank you for the explanation.
> 
> just a couple question,
> in this example:
> 
> Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
> Assets:ETH   456 8,934.38   4,074,079
> Expenses:CryptoFees50
> Trading:Crypto:BTC..
> Trading:Crypto:ETH..
> 
> is the value is in local currency (e.g. USD)? and expenses also in local
> currency ?
> because the trading place it charges the expenses in the crypto currency,
> for example.
> if trade BTC to ETH, then the expenses is in ETH,
> if trade from ETH to BTC, the expenses is in BTC.
> 
> if this is the case, then the expenses is converted to local currency ?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Suseno
> 
> 
> On Sat, May 21, 2022 at 11:49 PM Mattia Rizzolo  wrote:
> 
> > Nothing particularly odd about that.  You'll have to do something like:
> >
> >
> >tot shares   price   tot buy   tot sell
> > Assets:BTC  -123
> > Assets:ETH   456
> > Trading:Crypto:BTC   123
> > Trading:Crypto:ETH  -456
> >
> > (the Trading: splits should be created automatically, but regardless,
> > that's how it'll look).
> >
> > leave empty the 3 columns on the right, just touch the first column
> > labeled "tot shares"; that column is visible only for "Stock" or "Mutual
> > fund" kind of accounts, which is what I already expect your accounts to
> > be like.
> >
> > Then again, it might make sense to give value to those shares.  If so,
> > you could do this:
> >
> > Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
> > Assets:ETH   456 8,934.49   4,074,129
> > Trading:Crypto:BTC..
> > Trading:Crypto:ETH..
> >
> > (I made up the values of BTC and ETH here…)
> >
> >
> > This will also make possible to track the relevant fees in doing such
> > transaction:
> >
> > Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
> > Assets:ETH   456 8,934.38   4,074,079
> > Expenses:CryptoFees50
> > Trading:Crypto:BTC..
> > Trading:Crypto:ETH..
> >
> > That most likely make a lot of sense.
> >
> >
> >
> > That's something very commonly done when, for example, mutual funds are
> > merged into each other, redefined, or something else.  Or when you
> > instruct your asset management company to switch your investments from
> > one fund to another without cashing out in-between.
> > Something similar is also done when there are stock splitoffs (but it's
> > not exactly the same).
> >
> >
> > BTW, it's not possible to "add btc as a currency type", as the currency
> > types in gnucash are hardcoded and only formal currencies as to defined
> > by ISO 4217.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 20, 2022 at 07:10:22AM +0700, Suseno Dermawan wrote:
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I've been wondering, is there a way to trade between 1 crypto token to
> > > another directly?
> > > My use case as follows:
> > >
> > > Ideally able to trade "btc -> eth" vice versa.
> > >
> > > But for now, I use the registering method as follows:
> > >
> > > "btc -> local currency -> eth" vice versa
> > > Btc sell to local currency, then from local currency buy eth.
> > >
> > > Btw, I use crypto type as FUND.
> > >
> > > With using "btc - local currency - eth" way of registering the
> > transaction,
> > > I found that the loss n gain report is not really accurate.
> > >
> > > Is it possible to have btc to eth directly? I imagine this will need to
> > add
> > > both btc n eth as a currency type?
> > >
> > > Thanks for your help
> > >
> > > Suseno
> > > ___
> > > gnucash-user mailing list
> > > gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> > > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> > > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> > > -
> > > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> > > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
> >
> > --
> > regards,
> > Mattia Rizzolo
> >
> > GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540  .''`.
> > More about me:  

Re: [GNC] Crypto trade directly - not converting to local currency first

[Dr. David Kirkby]

On Sat, 21 May 2022 at 17:49, Mattia Rizzolo  wrote:

> BTW, it's not possible to "add btc as a currency type", as the currency
> types in gnucash are hardcoded and only formal currencies as to defined
> by ISO 4217.
>

BTH and ETH *could *be added. The developers are *choosing *to use ISO
4217, but there is no need to do so.

I did not realise until recently that around 50% of Nigerians don't have
banking facilities, which is why crypto is very common in Nigeria.
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

Re: [GNC] Crypto trade directly - not converting to local currency first

[Suseno Dermawan]

Hi Mattia,

Thank you for the explanation.

just a couple question,
in this example:

Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
Assets:ETH   456 8,934.38   4,074,079
Expenses:CryptoFees50
Trading:Crypto:BTC..
Trading:Crypto:ETH..

is the value is in local currency (e.g. USD)? and expenses also in local
currency ?
because the trading place it charges the expenses in the crypto currency,
for example.
if trade BTC to ETH, then the expenses is in ETH,
if trade from ETH to BTC, the expenses is in BTC.

if this is the case, then the expenses is converted to local currency ?

Thank you

Suseno


On Sat, May 21, 2022 at 11:49 PM Mattia Rizzolo  wrote:

> Nothing particularly odd about that.  You'll have to do something like:
>
>
>tot shares   price   tot buy   tot sell
> Assets:BTC  -123
> Assets:ETH   456
> Trading:Crypto:BTC   123
> Trading:Crypto:ETH  -456
>
> (the Trading: splits should be created automatically, but regardless,
> that's how it'll look).
>
> leave empty the 3 columns on the right, just touch the first column
> labeled "tot shares"; that column is visible only for "Stock" or "Mutual
> fund" kind of accounts, which is what I already expect your accounts to
> be like.
>
> Then again, it might make sense to give value to those shares.  If so,
> you could do this:
>
> Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
> Assets:ETH   456 8,934.49   4,074,129
> Trading:Crypto:BTC..
> Trading:Crypto:ETH..
>
> (I made up the values of BTC and ETH here…)
>
>
> This will also make possible to track the relevant fees in doing such
> transaction:
>
> Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
> Assets:ETH   456 8,934.38   4,074,079
> Expenses:CryptoFees50
> Trading:Crypto:BTC..
> Trading:Crypto:ETH..
>
> That most likely make a lot of sense.
>
>
>
> That's something very commonly done when, for example, mutual funds are
> merged into each other, redefined, or something else.  Or when you
> instruct your asset management company to switch your investments from
> one fund to another without cashing out in-between.
> Something similar is also done when there are stock splitoffs (but it's
> not exactly the same).
>
>
> BTW, it's not possible to "add btc as a currency type", as the currency
> types in gnucash are hardcoded and only formal currencies as to defined
> by ISO 4217.
>
>
> On Fri, May 20, 2022 at 07:10:22AM +0700, Suseno Dermawan wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've been wondering, is there a way to trade between 1 crypto token to
> > another directly?
> > My use case as follows:
> >
> > Ideally able to trade "btc -> eth" vice versa.
> >
> > But for now, I use the registering method as follows:
> >
> > "btc -> local currency -> eth" vice versa
> > Btc sell to local currency, then from local currency buy eth.
> >
> > Btw, I use crypto type as FUND.
> >
> > With using "btc - local currency - eth" way of registering the
> transaction,
> > I found that the loss n gain report is not really accurate.
> >
> > Is it possible to have btc to eth directly? I imagine this will need to
> add
> > both btc n eth as a currency type?
> >
> > Thanks for your help
> >
> > Suseno
> > ___
> > gnucash-user mailing list
> > gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> > -
> > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
> --
> regards,
> Mattia Rizzolo
>
> GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540  .''`.
> More about me:  https://mapreri.org : :'  :
> Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri  `. `'`
> Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia  `-
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
>
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 

Re: [GNC] Crypto trade directly - not converting to local currency first

[Mattia Rizzolo]

Nothing particularly odd about that.  You'll have to do something like:


   tot shares   price   tot buy   tot sell
Assets:BTC  -123
Assets:ETH   456
Trading:Crypto:BTC   123
Trading:Crypto:ETH  -456

(the Trading: splits should be created automatically, but regardless,
that's how it'll look).

leave empty the 3 columns on the right, just touch the first column
labeled "tot shares"; that column is visible only for "Stock" or "Mutual
fund" kind of accounts, which is what I already expect your accounts to
be like.

Then again, it might make sense to give value to those shares.  If so,
you could do this:

Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
Assets:ETH   456 8,934.49   4,074,129
Trading:Crypto:BTC..
Trading:Crypto:ETH..

(I made up the values of BTC and ETH here…)


This will also make possible to track the relevant fees in doing such
transaction:

Assets:BTC  -12333,123.00   4,074,129
Assets:ETH   456 8,934.38   4,074,079
Expenses:CryptoFees50
Trading:Crypto:BTC..
Trading:Crypto:ETH..

That most likely make a lot of sense.



That's something very commonly done when, for example, mutual funds are
merged into each other, redefined, or something else.  Or when you
instruct your asset management company to switch your investments from
one fund to another without cashing out in-between.
Something similar is also done when there are stock splitoffs (but it's
not exactly the same).


BTW, it's not possible to "add btc as a currency type", as the currency
types in gnucash are hardcoded and only formal currencies as to defined
by ISO 4217.


On Fri, May 20, 2022 at 07:10:22AM +0700, Suseno Dermawan wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I've been wondering, is there a way to trade between 1 crypto token to
> another directly?
> My use case as follows:
> 
> Ideally able to trade "btc -> eth" vice versa.
> 
> But for now, I use the registering method as follows:
> 
> "btc -> local currency -> eth" vice versa
> Btc sell to local currency, then from local currency buy eth.
> 
> Btw, I use crypto type as FUND.
> 
> With using "btc - local currency - eth" way of registering the transaction,
> I found that the loss n gain report is not really accurate.
> 
> Is it possible to have btc to eth directly? I imagine this will need to add
> both btc n eth as a currency type?
> 
> Thanks for your help
> 
> Suseno
> ___
> gnucash-user mailing list
> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
> If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
> -
> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

-- 
regards,
Mattia Rizzolo

GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540  .''`.
More about me:  https://mapreri.org : :'  :
Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri  `. `'`
Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia  `-


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

[GNC] Crypto trade directly - not converting to local currency first

[Suseno Dermawan]

Hi All,

I've been wondering, is there a way to trade between 1 crypto token to
another directly?
My use case as follows:

Ideally able to trade "btc -> eth" vice versa.

But for now, I use the registering method as follows:

"btc -> local currency -> eth" vice versa
Btc sell to local currency, then from local currency buy eth.

Btw, I use crypto type as FUND.

With using "btc - local currency - eth" way of registering the transaction,
I found that the loss n gain report is not really accurate.

Is it possible to have btc to eth directly? I imagine this will need to add
both btc n eth as a currency type?

Thanks for your help

Suseno
___
gnucash-user mailing list
gnucash-user@gnucash.org
To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see 
https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information.
-
Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.