Re: [GNC] Negative attitudes [was: Re: Negative numbers]

[ToddAndMargo via gnucash-user]

On 2020-09-13 03:31, Liz wrote:

On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 22:37:02 -0700
ToddAndMargo via gnucash-user  wrote:


Folks do not understand that Open Source is not free.


We have a way of describing this to deal with the various meanings of
"free" in English.

You are describing "free as in beer". Others are describing some of the
further meanings of "free" that FSF refers to

Freedom to use for any purpose; freedom to examine the code; freedom to
share; freedom to improve (and share those improvements).


You can read more about the matters here
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

Liz


Hi Liz,

That is only half the story.  A nice half though!

Here is the rest of the story:

Open-source economics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_economics

   Open-source for-profit businesses:

   Numerous companies have created businesses around
   open-source software. They do this by publishing
   all of their code open-source, then charging for
   training, certifications, add-ons, and other
   services. One example is Red Hat, which produces
   operating systems. Red Hat sells services such as
   24/7 support, integration into company's products,
   and training. Red Hat was the pioneer for the open
   source business model, and was valued at approximately
   $16 billion as of April 2017. Other examples
   include Google, which created Android, an open-source
   mobile operating system based on Linux.

-T
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Re: [GNC] Negative attitudes [was: Re: Negative numbers]

[Dean Gibson]

[see below]

On 2020-09-13 13:42, Dean Gibson wrote:
I don't want to beat this dead horse too much more, but I do want to 
address an aspect of the general issue of entitlement that I have not 
seen addressed (and may not be immediately relatable to the current 
issue at hand):


...

There's an old saying about giving a man a fish vs. teaching him how 
to fish.


I used to offer help here, but it quickly became obvious to me that 
many questioners simply wanted to solve the immediate problem at hand, 
rather than LEARN concepts behind what they are asking. So, I don't 
participate any more, but I read the message traffic, which reinforces 
my opinion.  Not sorry.  Sorry.


Sincerely, Dean


I _DO_ want to express my appreciation for the several persistent souls 
on this forum that repeatedly answer the same old questions, day after 
day, year after year.


-- Dean
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Re: [GNC] Negative attitudes [was: Re: Negative numbers]

[David H]

Ah well said, couldn't agree more.

Regards David H.

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 at 06:45, Dean Gibson  wrote:

> I don't want to beat this dead horse too much more, but I do want to
> address an aspect of the general issue of entitlement that I have not
> seen addressed (and may not be immediately relatable to the current
> issue at hand):
>
> It's one thing to complain about features that you want, or want
> differently.
>
> It's entirely another thing to come on this forum and expect help because:
>
> 1. You don't understand the basics of how to use the operating system
> you have.  There are lots of books & other resources that are available
> to LEARN how to install/uninstall programs & find, create, delete, &
> backup your data, for whichever operating system you have chosen.
>
> 2. You are too cheap to buy Windows, & then need an education on using &
> navigating Linux.  (This isn't a Windows vs Linux thing; I run two Linux
> file servers at home, plus two at Amazon Web Services Linux servers for
> web/mail/dns/database services.)
>
> 3. You don't understand the basics of elementary accounting &
> bookkeeping, & repeatedly ask questions about how to do something in
> GnuCash, when in reality the answer is obvious to someone who has taken
> the time to LEARN (there's that word again). Again, there are lots of
> books & other resources that are available to LEARN basic bookkeeping &
> accounting.
>
> 4. You sign up for a 3rd party message system, because you don't want to
> deal with the current, EASY TO USE, system, & then complain here about
> getting duplicate messages, because you don't take the time to LEARN
> what you are doing or how things work.
>
> There's an old saying about giving a man a fish vs. teaching him how to
> fish.
>
> I used to offer help here, but it quickly became obvious to me that many
> questioners simply wanted to solve the immediate problem at hand, rather
> than LEARN concepts behind what they are asking.  So, I don't
> participate any more, but I read the message traffic, which reinforces
> my opinion.  Not sorry.  Sorry.
>
> Sincerely, Dean
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Re: [GNC] Negative attitudes [was: Re: Negative numbers]

[Dean Gibson]

I don't want to beat this dead horse too much more, but I do want to 
address an aspect of the general issue of entitlement that I have not 
seen addressed (and may not be immediately relatable to the current 
issue at hand):


It's one thing to complain about features that you want, or want 
differently.


It's entirely another thing to come on this forum and expect help because:

1. You don't understand the basics of how to use the operating system 
you have.  There are lots of books & other resources that are available 
to LEARN how to install/uninstall programs & find, create, delete, & 
backup your data, for whichever operating system you have chosen.


2. You are too cheap to buy Windows, & then need an education on using & 
navigating Linux.  (This isn't a Windows vs Linux thing; I run two Linux 
file servers at home, plus two at Amazon Web Services Linux servers for 
web/mail/dns/database services.)


3. You don't understand the basics of elementary accounting & 
bookkeeping, & repeatedly ask questions about how to do something in 
GnuCash, when in reality the answer is obvious to someone who has taken 
the time to LEARN (there's that word again). Again, there are lots of 
books & other resources that are available to LEARN basic bookkeeping & 
accounting.


4. You sign up for a 3rd party message system, because you don't want to 
deal with the current, EASY TO USE, system, & then complain here about 
getting duplicate messages, because you don't take the time to LEARN 
what you are doing or how things work.


There's an old saying about giving a man a fish vs. teaching him how to 
fish.


I used to offer help here, but it quickly became obvious to me that many 
questioners simply wanted to solve the immediate problem at hand, rather 
than LEARN concepts behind what they are asking.  So, I don't 
participate any more, but I read the message traffic, which reinforces 
my opinion.  Not sorry.  Sorry.


Sincerely, Dean
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Re: [GNC] Negative attitudes [was: Re: Negative numbers]

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 9/13/2020 1:37 AM, ToddAndMargo via gnucash-user wrote:



Great exposition!

I use Fedora in my business.  It is a wonderful example of
"Kaisen", meaning constant improvement.  I am totally spoiled
by their responsiveness to users, including me.  I presume
"someone" is paying them, but I do not know where they are
getting their funding.  I certainly an not put one more
person on my payroll.


The entities like Fedora, Red Hat, etc. get funded by by their (larger) 
business users. Businesses that while not small, not large enough to 
justify the cost of their own "tech support" department. You see here 
plenty of mention of not being able to use the latest gnucash version 
because dependencies not right in the stable linux distro. Well a 
business that had to have than application would need help "fixing" 
those dependencies.


For example, when I first played around some with Linux << after I took 
a very generous post Y2K package and retired early -- within months back 
there "consulting" >>  I BOUGHT a distro because for a very reasonable 
price had a far superior installer, well tested distro, plus install 
support included with the price. You likely won't have heard of this 
distro as no more. The person doing it became ill and died a few years 
later.


Keep in mind, especially back then, usually a fair amount of fiddling 
around to get all the computer's stuff working. Particularly annoying on 
the linux forums to look at advice for installing the totally free stuff 
on this or that machine commonly ending up with "got everything working 
except the phone modem but nobody uses dial-up anymore" << which was 
obviously a sine qua non for me -- broadband cables didn't reach here 
until two years ago! >>


Michael D Novack

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Re: [GNC] Negative attitudes [was: Re: Negative numbers]

[Liz]

On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 22:37:02 -0700
ToddAndMargo via gnucash-user  wrote:

> Folks do not understand that Open Source is not free.

We have a way of describing this to deal with the various meanings of
"free" in English.

You are describing "free as in beer". Others are describing some of the
further meanings of "free" that FSF refers to

Freedom to use for any purpose; freedom to examine the code; freedom to
share; freedom to improve (and share those improvements).


You can read more about the matters here
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

Liz
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Re: [GNC] Negative attitudes [was: Re: Negative numbers]

[ToddAndMargo via gnucash-user]

On 2020-09-12 19:26, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:


ToddAndMargo, I don't know what to conclude from what you are saying. 
One sentence seems to show you understand that GnuCash only reaches 
you by lots of people doing lots of things. The next sentence seems to 
show you having a tremendous sense of entitlement to getting something 
for nothing, and blaming the generous people who give you 10 gifts 
when you don't get the 11th gift you want.


I am going to jump in here because I am old enough to have been around 
for the original discussions out of which "free software" movement came.


a) First of all, it was in rebellion to high priced software under 
restrictive license. It was NOT about "make software free as in free 
lunch".


b) The rallying cry was "software for the price of a book" (and by book, 
being academics, they pictured like the price of a college text, not 
trivial)


c) The LICENSE was to be free. If anybody wanted to compile the source 
code and give away free copies, they could do that. Somebody still could 
SELL copies. Of course they couldn't charge more than fair or somebody 
would do it cheaper or for free. Even for the open source code itself 
could be charged a "reasonable fee for supplying a copy on standard 
medium" << remember, no free downloads from the internet in those days 
 >> And that was just the SOURCE CODE. Perfectly OK for somebody to 
charge you for a compiled executable you could run on your machine << 
remember, at this time almost every machine had specific 
assemblers/compilers, far less standardization  than in recent decades>>


d) These were people who expected to make their livings from software. 
What is the outrage about? Nobody promised you FREE SUPPORT along with 
the free software. Nothing against selling you a book "how to use 
software app X". Or for debugging your problems.


e) Your entitlement (under free software rules) is JUST a free copy of 
the source code << now should be free as in free lunch because of 
downloads >> You are NOT (actually) entitled to an executable for your 
machine  or its installer for free, though that is customary nowadays 
since developers don't need to supply very many versions.


Michael D Novack

PS: And here I am not doing my bit to help development. But that's 
because spoiled by my working days when clients who wanted something 
were willing to put in their share of the work. I've seen lots of "I 
want this or that" but when challenged "OK, I'll design.code, test, but 
FIRST you commit to the "requirements meetings" << unless what software 
is SUPPOSED TO DO is fully defined I won't touch it >> and commit to the 
testing process. No? Then forget it.


Hi Michael,

Great exposition!

I use Fedora in my business.  It is a wonderful example of
"Kaisen", meaning constant improvement.  I am totally spoiled
by their responsiveness to users, including me.  I presume
"someone" is paying them, but I do not know where they are
getting their funding.  I certainly an not put one more
person on my payroll.

Folks do not understand that Open Source is not free.  If
the funding is not there, there is only so much a "volunteer"
can do.  At some point, they need to be paid for their work.
This means in some projects, a lot of stuff does not get
worked on, Kaisen stops, and a project spirals down.  The
only thing that gets worked on are those things the
"volunteers" need.  They are a victim of their own
economic model.

"In general", I find open source to be of higher quality
than paid software.  There are notable exceptions.

Gnu Cash has one of the steepest learning curves I have come
across, but if you put the work into learning it, it shines.
I almost pulled all my hair out learning it. Boy did it
even come through doing my business taxes.

-T


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Re: [GNC] Negative attitudes [was: Re: Negative numbers]

[Michael or Penny Novack]

ToddAndMargo, I don't know what to conclude from what you are saying. 
One sentence seems to show you understand that GnuCash only reaches 
you by lots of people doing lots of things. The next sentence seems to 
show you having a tremendous sense of entitlement to getting something 
for nothing, and blaming the generous people who give you 10 gifts 
when you don't get the 11th gift you want.


I am going to jump in here because I am old enough to have been around 
for the original discussions out of which "free software" movement came.


a) First of all, it was in rebellion to high priced software under 
restrictive license. It was NOT about "make software free as in free lunch".


b) The rallying cry was "software for the price of a book" (and by book, 
being academics, they pictured like the price of a college text, not 
trivial)


c) The LICENSE was to be free. If anybody wanted to compile the source 
code and give away free copies, they could do that. Somebody still could 
SELL copies. Of course they couldn't charge more than fair or somebody 
would do it cheaper or for free. Even for the open source code itself 
could be charged a "reasonable fee for supplying a copy on standard 
medium" << remember, no free downloads from the internet in those days 
>> And that was just the SOURCE CODE. Perfectly OK for somebody to 
charge you for a compiled executable you could run on your machine << 
remember, at this time almost every machine had specific 
assemblers/compilers, far less standardization  than in recent decades>>


d) These were people who expected to make their livings from software. 
What is the outrage about? Nobody promised you FREE SUPPORT along with 
the free software. Nothing against selling you a book "how to use 
software app X". Or for debugging your problems.


e) Your entitlement (under free software rules) is JUST a free copy of 
the source code << now should be free as in free lunch because of 
downloads >> You are NOT (actually) entitled to an executable for your 
machine  or its installer for free, though that is customary nowadays 
since developers don't need to supply very many versions.


Michael D Novack

PS: And here I am not doing my bit to help development. But that's 
because spoiled by my working days when clients who wanted something 
were willing to put in their share of the work. I've seen lots of "I 
want this or that" but when challenged "OK, I'll design.code, test, but 
FIRST you commit to the "requirements meetings" << unless what software 
is SUPPOSED TO DO is fully defined I won't touch it >> and commit to the 
testing process. No? Then forget it.


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[GNC] Negative attitudes [was: Re: Negative numbers]

[Jim DeLaHunt]

On 2020-09-12 14:40, ToddAndMargo via gnucash-user wrote:


On 2020-09-12 10:27, John Ralls wrote:


On Sep 11, 2020, at 11:33 PM, ToddAndMargo via gnucash-user 
 wrote:

On 2020-09-10 21:42, ToddAndMargo via gnucash-user wrote:

[…snip…]

On 2020-09-09 13:18, Stephen M. Butler wrote:

You may also enter an enhancement request in bugzilla.


Will do!
RFE: add ledger style negative number input
https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797939
RFE: please give the ability to add notes to simple ledger view
https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797940


Both were duplicates of four year or more old bugs.
Shades of Libre Office and Wine.  User input
is ignored unless you can pony up.  This is sad.
But it is the open source model.  Give the code away
for free and charge for maintenance



There is no "pony up".

GnuCash is a *gift* of tens of thousands of hours work by a few dozen 
*unpaid* individuals over 20 years. All of the people on this list 
who have helped you are also unpaid volunteers. All of the 
infrastructure is provided and supported by volunteers who also 
donate the power and connectivity to keep the servers running and 
usable. While donations to the "tip jar" are surely welcome--and paid 
for a new server last year--the only solicitation is a link on the 
web page.


Regards,
John Ralls


You ever get a letter from Red hat or Wine or Libre
Office explaining that you need to "hire" them to
get your bugs fixed?  This is the open source model.
Open source is not a free lunch.

Individuals can never afford to put their developers
on the payroll.  They want a whole lot more that a
tip jar too.  And they do seriously deserve to be
paid for what they do.  They ARE providing a service.

Lets hope Gnu Cash's developers are a little more
responsive to requests from underfunded users in
the future.  Or at least tag requests over a year
old as "won't fix" so folks will quit asking for it.


ToddAndMargo, I don't know what to conclude from what you are saying. 
One sentence seems to show you understand that GnuCash only reaches you 
by lots of people doing lots of things. The next sentence seems to show 
you having a tremendous sense of entitlement to getting something for 
nothing, and blaming the generous people who give you 10 gifts when you 
don't get the 11th gift you want.


The open source model is . The source code 
is open, right there. Copy it, use it. No "pony up" necessary.


What you find there is, as John Ralls says, a gift to you — and to me 
and to many others — from many people who made voluntary contributions 
over many years. You don't have to express appreciation for a gift, but 
my grandma taught me it was churlish not to.


If you want improvements, then contribute them. See instructions at 
. We would love 
to have your positive efforts. Don't have the skills or the time to 
contribute the improvement you seek?  Then ask nicely for someone to do 
what you want. The people you are asking are, as John observes, 
volunteers. They probably get a kick out of being able to help. But they 
also have their own improvements which they want to contribute, for 
their own reasons. Your desires may or may not overlap with their 
priorities.


If you don't like the narrowness of the overlap between your desires and 
their priorities, well, that's where paid support could potentially come 
in. Maybe you can find someone who is in the business of satisfying your 
desires in exchange for money. As far as I know, none of the major 
contributors to GnuCash are in that business, and I haven't heard about 
someone offering paid support for GnuCash. But maybe you can find 
someone. I hope they give you want you seek. And, I hope you and they 
will contribute back the improvements. And if so, you are now a 
contributor to GnuCash.  Thank you.


No-one is forcing you to use GnuCash, and you are not entitled to 
require others gift you the changes you want. To gripe about the GnuCash 
developers from whom you receive this gift not being "responsive" enough 
is, for me, unpleasant to listen to and unfair to them. It is a 
detraction rather than a contribution.


    —Jim "in appreciation for GnuCash 3.10 build (2020-04-11)" 
DeLaHunt, Vancouver, Canada



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