Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[Paul Kroitor]

Or just fire up your OS's favourite hypervisor (Hyper-V for Windows, KVM on
Linux, etc) and run multiple instances.

In fact, with a single Windows VM, you can keep a tree of alternate
realities (i.e., checkpoints), and jump back and forth between different
scenarios. For example, running 4.10, you can take a checkpoint, install
5.0, test, then revert to 4.10, install 4.14, work, jump back to 5.0, and so
on. Checkpointing isn't only about reversion to past situations -- it can be
used to manage alternative presents too.

Paul

-Original Message-
From: gnucash-user  On
Behalf Of flywire
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2023 7:51 PM
To: Gnucash Users 
Subject: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

> If the new version could be installed alongside the current version 
> and
data files kept separate

It's not necessarily new version and current version. Two versions, same
computer -
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-March/105955.html

In Windows, use GnuCash installed on system for testing and the desired
GnuCashPortable version for the real books.
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[GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[flywire]

> If the new version could be installed alongside the current version and
data files kept separate

It's not necessarily new version and current version. Two versions, same
computer -
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2023-March/105955.html

In Windows, use GnuCash installed on system for testing and the desired
GnuCashPortable version for the real books.
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Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[Carsten Hütter]

Hello Gyle!

It's not that hard to install and run two (ore more) gnucash versions
in the Windows environment side by side. Just rename the gnucash program folder 
to e. g. "gnucash 5.1-15 nightly" (or any other name that seems appropriate). 
Then start a different gnucash setup. A new "gnucash" folder will be created in 
the program directory. You can navigate to the preferred gnucash folder to get 
the application started, and you can create an appropriate link on your desktop 
or start menu for easier access. BTDT.

Greetings

Carsten
⁣

Am 20. Mai 2023, 23:57, um 23:57, Gyle McCollam  schrieb:
>If the new version could be installed alongside the current version and
>data files kept separate, I for one would be happy to enter my
>transactions in both the new and old to test the new.  However, since
>the warnings are to not use for production or live data, I don't test
>the new.  I wouldn't know how to do that in Windows, but it would be
>nice to be able to do that.
>
>
>Thank You,
>
>Gyle McCollam
>
>Gyle McCollam
>
>gmccol...@live.com<mailto:gmccol...@gyleshomes.com>   email
>
>
>From: gnucash-user 
>on behalf of Michael or Penny Novack 
>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2023 5:25 PM
>To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org 
>Subject: Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers
>
>Precisely because I am a retired pro, I have not worked on development
>in this volunteer environment.
>
>See, my experience was in a different environment when we had end user
>commitment to the project. By which I mean end user TIME. Not "I want"
>but "I am willing to commit to the end user part of software
>development". In the work world I came from, about 20% of the project
>time was at the start formalizing the requirements (what is this thing
>supposed to do). So yes, we business analysts and systems analysts took
>part in that phase, but mainly asking questions of the clients/users
>"OK, but what do you want it to do in THIS situation?" << because
>initially, all the clients/users picture is how it is to work normally
>-- NOT picturing all the rare cases/exceptions that might come up --
>and
>roughly 80% of the code will end up being what handles these odd
>situations >>
>
>THEN maybe 30% of the time to make really formal definition and spec it
>out and 30% to code it.
>
>But at the end, the clients/users need to come back to provide the
>testers, the final 20%. In other words, about 40% of the time
>commitment
>would not be us analysts and programmers but USERS.
>
>Of course in that "world" the users were there because they were being
>paid to be there just like we analysts/programmers were. Sorry, but in
>this voluntary environment I am NOT seeing the users who are saying
>that
>they want thus and ALSO saying ":and to get that, we will commit to our
>part of the project"
>
>
>Michael D Novack
>
>
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Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[Gyle McCollam]

If the new version could be installed alongside the current version and data 
files kept separate, I for one would be happy to enter my transactions in both 
the new and old to test the new.  However, since the warnings are to not use 
for production or live data, I don't test the new.  I wouldn't know how to do 
that in Windows, but it would be nice to be able to do that.


Thank You,

Gyle McCollam

Gyle McCollam

gmccol...@live.com<mailto:gmccol...@gyleshomes.com>   email


From: gnucash-user  on 
behalf of Michael or Penny Novack 
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2023 5:25 PM
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org 
Subject: Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

Precisely because I am a retired pro, I have not worked on development
in this volunteer environment.

See, my experience was in a different environment when we had end user
commitment to the project. By which I mean end user TIME. Not "I want"
but "I am willing to commit to the end user part of software
development". In the work world I came from, about 20% of the project
time was at the start formalizing the requirements (what is this thing
supposed to do). So yes, we business analysts and systems analysts took
part in that phase, but mainly asking questions of the clients/users
"OK, but what do you want it to do in THIS situation?" << because
initially, all the clients/users picture is how it is to work normally
-- NOT picturing all the rare cases/exceptions that might come up -- and
roughly 80% of the code will end up being what handles these odd
situations >>

THEN maybe 30% of the time to make really formal definition and spec it
out and 30% to code it.

But at the end, the clients/users need to come back to provide the
testers, the final 20%. In other words, about 40% of the time commitment
would not be us analysts and programmers but USERS.

Of course in that "world" the users were there because they were being
paid to be there just like we analysts/programmers were. Sorry, but in
this voluntary environment I am NOT seeing the users who are saying that
they want thus and ALSO saying ":and to get that, we will commit to our
part of the project"


Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[Michael or Penny Novack]

Precisely because I am a retired pro, I have not worked on development 
in this volunteer environment.


See, my experience was in a different environment when we had end user 
commitment to the project. By which I mean end user TIME. Not "I want" 
but "I am willing to commit to the end user part of software 
development". In the work world I came from, about 20% of the project 
time was at the start formalizing the requirements (what is this thing 
supposed to do). So yes, we business analysts and systems analysts took 
part in that phase, but mainly asking questions of the clients/users 
"OK, but what do you want it to do in THIS situation?" << because 
initially, all the clients/users picture is how it is to work normally 
-- NOT picturing all the rare cases/exceptions that might come up -- and 
roughly 80% of the code will end up being what handles these odd 
situations >>


THEN maybe 30% of the time to make really formal definition and spec it 
out and 30% to code it.


But at the end, the clients/users need to come back to provide the 
testers, the final 20%. In other words, about 40% of the time commitment 
would not be us analysts and programmers but USERS.


Of course in that "world" the users were there because they were being 
paid to be there just like we analysts/programmers were. Sorry, but in 
this voluntary environment I am NOT seeing the users who are saying that 
they want thus and ALSO saying ":and to get that, we will commit to our 
part of the project"



Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[John Dablin via gnucash-user]

On 20/05/2023 20:05, Vincent Dawans wrote:

In my (long gone) days as a paid software
developer, we had access to a QA/test team that would give us all the
feedback we needed.


In my own (also long gone) days as a software developer I remember 
reading a (partly) humorous  article that reckoned the best QA tester 
was someone with long greasy hair, who looked (and smelt) like he hadn't 
showered for a month, was highly opinionated, and his one aim in life 
was to prove the developers were useless bunch of f*g idiots. I 
thought at the time there was probably some truth in that! 


John Dablin
(Happy gnucash user who is content to let Ubuntu decide when to 
distribute an upgrade).


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Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[Stan Brown]

On 2023-05-20 12:05, Vincent Dawans wrote:
> When you compile from source on Linux in particular, as a developer this is
> super easy and allows you to install as many versions of gnucash
> concurrently as you want. However I don't think it's possible to install
> concurrent versions from official builds, even nightly builds. I think it
> would go a long way if we could have a testing version (could be a nightly
> build as well) that can be installed concurrently in a separate file
> structure, including user settings, database and everything.

With the free Oracle VirtualBox software, it's not hard to set up a
virtual machine on which to install a test version of GnuCash. This
effectively prevents different versions of GC from interfering with each
other. Windows users can have Windows or Linux in the virtual machine;
Linux users can have Linux or Windows.

While not _completely_ trivial, it's quite easy to set up Windows 10
without a license or a Microsoft account on a virtual machine. YouTube
videos guide you through the process. And of course setting up Linux
doesn't raise license issues in the first place.

Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
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Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[Vincent Dawans]

I think Geert puts the issue clearly in highlighting the need for more
testing, a weak spot in any open source software. This is even more so with
gnuCash because we are dealing with critical financial data, both in terms
of the importance of testing but also the challenge since we don't want
users to "risk" their live data on testing. Possibly there is something we
can do to improve this. In my (long gone) days as a paid software
developer, we had access to a QA/test team that would give us all the
feedback we needed. Of course that's what money gets you. One important
aspect I recall at the time is that the testers were not developers. In
fact that was an important aspect. The least they knew about how things are
made to work the better, because there can be a bias in testing when you
understand what the code is supposed to do, you often avoid doing (without
even knowing it) things that you should "avoid" doing, hence your testing
is inherently biased. The testers' job was to be nitpickers and actually
try to actively break things; some were really good at it. The flip side is
therefore that setting up a test environment should be simple since the
testers aren't developers.

When you compile from source on Linux in particular, as a developer this is
super easy and allows you to install as many versions of gnucash
concurrently as you want. However I don't think it's possible to install
concurrent versions from official builds, even nightly builds. I think it
would go a long way if we could have a testing version (could be a nightly
build as well) that can be installed concurrently in a separate file
structure, including user settings, database and everything. So even all
your setting files, registry entry, etc would be different. Possibly
gnucash-testing or whatever the name is, separate from gnucash. It would
need to be available on Windows as well since a large number of users are
on Windows. Then a group of volunteers could more easily install and update
a test version concurrent to their main version without cross-over. As for
data files, it would be a separate database or file, with recommendation to
not mix them. In fact we could even possibly put a restriction to avoid
errors, such as (if using xml file) the file name needing the
gnucash-testing extension to open. For databases some similar mechanism.
Users could be given instructions on how to create a testing copy of their
userfile or database to test with "real" data. Possibly then a larger group
of volunteers could come together and create an actual semi official tester
group without the need for any technical skills (these might even be
discouraged).

Cheers,

Vincent

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 3:01 AM Maf. King  wrote:

> Thank you Geert, for a considered response and reminder of the limitations
> of
> a (all?) volunteer groups.
>
> I can imagine that it was disheartening for the dev team to be met with so
> many bugs and so much vitriol over the issues some use-cases found with
> the
> 5.0 release.  I can also understand the reluctance of the user base to
> beta-
> test, given the nature of GC as a product and the "don't use this on
> important
> data" warnings. it is clear from the list that many users don't get
> the
> idea of the GC data file being "outside" the GC program on disk
>
> You guys are appreciated for your time and effort on GC, that can not be
> repeated too often - devs, translators, testers, and the guys on here who
> are
> able to help other users.
>
> 
>
> Maf.
>
>
>
> On Saturday, 20 May 2023 10:32:32 BST Geert Janssens wrote:
> > I really shouldn't answer this, but it's too painful to read...
> >
> > Perhaps the user's expectations are too high for a volunteer project
> such as
> > gnucash. It's true, things go wrong. Especially with major releases which
> > typically have changes accumulating over the longer development cycle
> which
> > gets very little end user testing. we do encourage this by the way but we
> > get surprisingly little of it. I suppose end users are volunteers as well
> > and have limited time to help out in testing.
> >
> > That aside, we do take these issues seriously. From what I can tell
> almost
> > **all** the changes that went into gnucash 5.1 were to solve problems
> that
> > appeared in the 5.0 release. There were more than we could handle in the
> > single month between these two releases. We're still working on fixing
> more
> > for the next release.
> >
> > Those include the issue with entering descriptions in the register and
> the
> > broken multi- column reports.Please do understand that while it's
> sometimes
> > easy to point out a problem, it does take time for a proper fix.
> >
> > Yesterday we added a fix for the multi column report which we hope should
> > solve the issue. You are most welcome to download the latest nightly
> builds
> > to help us verify this.
> >
> > The other one has a patch waiting, which is still under discussion. It
> has
> > high priority but we 

Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[Maf. King]

Thank you Geert, for a considered response and reminder of the limitations of 
a (all?) volunteer groups.

I can imagine that it was disheartening for the dev team to be met with so 
many bugs and so much vitriol over the issues some use-cases found with the 
5.0 release.  I can also understand the reluctance of the user base to beta-
test, given the nature of GC as a product and the "don't use this on important 
data" warnings. it is clear from the list that many users don't get the 
idea of the GC data file being "outside" the GC program on disk

You guys are appreciated for your time and effort on GC, that can not be 
repeated too often - devs, translators, testers, and the guys on here who are 
able to help other users.



Maf.



On Saturday, 20 May 2023 10:32:32 BST Geert Janssens wrote:
> I really shouldn't answer this, but it's too painful to read...
> 
> Perhaps the user's expectations are too high for a volunteer project such as
> gnucash. It's true, things go wrong. Especially with major releases which
> typically have changes accumulating over the longer development cycle which
> gets very little end user testing. we do encourage this by the way but we
> get surprisingly little of it. I suppose end users are volunteers as well
> and have limited time to help out in testing.
> 
> That aside, we do take these issues seriously. From what I can tell almost
> **all** the changes that went into gnucash 5.1 were to solve problems that
> appeared in the 5.0 release. There were more than we could handle in the
> single month between these two releases. We're still working on fixing more
> for the next release.
> 
> Those include the issue with entering descriptions in the register and the
> broken multi- column reports.Please do understand that while it's sometimes
> easy to point out a problem, it does take time for a proper fix.
> 
> Yesterday we added a fix for the multi column report which we hope should
> solve the issue. You are most welcome to download the latest nightly builds
> to help us verify this.
> 
> The other one has a patch waiting, which is still under discussion. It has
> high priority but we don't want to make it a half-baked solution.
> 
> More hands helping out are always welcome by the way. In the absence of more
> helping hands, things proceed at the pace the current development team can
> handle. You're free to feel happy or sad about that.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Geert
> 
> Op zaterdag 20 mei 2023 09:37:08 CEST schreef G R Hewitt:
> > I agree with the sentiments WM expressed; I have had the growing feeling
> > from reading the emails that pet projects are worked on in isolation to
> > the
> > main.
> > It kind of reminds me of a model railway exhibition I once went to many
> > moons ago. On one large display, all nicely set out, no trains were
> > running
> > as everyone involved was working on their particular pet project; the
> > signals weren't working as they were all in bits as 'something new was
> > being tried out',
> > the power to the track wasn't on for the same reason, and people with
> > trains to run were just hanging about with a cup of tea flicking switches
> > in the
> > hope that it, somehow, might work beyond the odd pulse of power that moved
> > the train a few inches and then stopped - or worse ran the train backwards
> > so it came off the lines.
> > 
> > On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 22:41, Wm  wrote:
> > > I think the balance between users of gnc and developers of gnc has
> > > broken down.
> > > 
> > > My personal instinct is inclined towards development, towards software
> > > getting better, being more inclusive, making things easier, you get the
> > > drift.
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately it seems some personal projects got in the way of making
> > > gnc 5 better for everyone.
> > > 
> > > The most obvious interaction fail is transaction completion which should
> > > have been an improvement but has ended up as an "I'm right, you are all
> > > wrong" issue :(
> > > see 798829 – 5.0 transaction completion features are buggy (gnucash.org)
> > >  for details :(
> > > 
> > > For small organizations / charitable organizations / whatever they are
> > > in your locale, v5 broke reporting in a significant way.
> > > see 798809 – Multicolumn report error when reopened after saving.
> > > (gnucash.org) 
> > > why? because preparing a standard set of reports is what is expected of
> > > small businesses, etc
> > > it is understood, pretty much in every jurisdiction, that you start with
> > > last year's balance sheet, you add in the income statement for the last
> 
> ___
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Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[Geert Janssens]

I really shouldn't answer this, but it's too painful to read...

Perhaps the user's expectations are too high for a volunteer project such as 
gnucash. It's 
true, things go wrong. Especially with major releases which typically have 
changes 
accumulating over the longer development cycle which gets very little end user 
testing. we 
do encourage this by the way but we get surprisingly little of it. I suppose 
end users are 
volunteers as well and have limited time to help out in testing.

That aside, we do take these issues seriously. From what I can tell almost 
**all** the 
changes that went into gnucash 5.1 were to solve problems that appeared in the 
5.0 release. 
There were more than we could handle in the single month between these two 
releases. 
We're still working on fixing more for the next release.

Those include the issue with entering descriptions in the register and the 
broken multi-
column reports.Please do understand that while it's sometimes easy to point out 
a problem, 
it does take time for a proper fix.

Yesterday we added a fix for the multi column report which we hope should solve 
the issue. 
You are most welcome to download the latest nightly builds to help us verify 
this.

The other one has a patch waiting, which is still under discussion. It has high 
priority but we 
don't want to make it a half-baked solution.

More hands helping out are always welcome by the way. In the absence of more 
helping 
hands, things proceed at the pace the current development team can handle. 
You're free to 
feel happy or sad about that.

Regards,

Geert

Op zaterdag 20 mei 2023 09:37:08 CEST schreef G R Hewitt:
> I agree with the sentiments WM expressed; I have had the growing feeling
> from reading the emails that pet projects are worked on in isolation to the
> main.
> It kind of reminds me of a model railway exhibition I once went to many
> moons ago. On one large display, all nicely set out, no trains were running
> as everyone involved was working on their particular pet project; the
> signals weren't working as they were all in bits as 'something new was
> being tried out',
> the power to the track wasn't on for the same reason, and people with
> trains to run were just hanging about with a cup of tea flicking switches
> in the
> hope that it, somehow, might work beyond the odd pulse of power that moved
> the train a few inches and then stopped - or worse ran the train backwards
> so it came off the lines.
> 
> On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 22:41, Wm  wrote:
> > I think the balance between users of gnc and developers of gnc has
> > broken down.
> > 
> > My personal instinct is inclined towards development, towards software
> > getting better, being more inclusive, making things easier, you get the
> > drift.
> > 
> > Unfortunately it seems some personal projects got in the way of making
> > gnc 5 better for everyone.
> > 
> > The most obvious interaction fail is transaction completion which should
> > have been an improvement but has ended up as an "I'm right, you are all
> > wrong" issue :(
> > see 798829 – 5.0 transaction completion features are buggy (gnucash.org)
> >  for details :(
> > 
> > For small organizations / charitable organizations / whatever they are
> > in your locale, v5 broke reporting in a significant way.
> > see 798809 – Multicolumn report error when reopened after saving.
> > (gnucash.org) 
> > why? because preparing a standard set of reports is what is expected of
> > small businesses, etc
> > it is understood, pretty much in every jurisdiction, that you start with
> > last year's balance sheet, you add in the income statement for the last
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Re: [GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[G R Hewitt]

I agree with the sentiments WM expressed; I have had the growing feeling
from reading the emails that pet projects are worked on in isolation to the
main.
It kind of reminds me of a model railway exhibition I once went to many
moons ago. On one large display, all nicely set out, no trains were running
as everyone involved was working on their particular pet project; the
signals weren't working as they were all in bits as 'something new was
being tried out',
the power to the track wasn't on for the same reason, and people with
trains to run were just hanging about with a cup of tea flicking switches
in the
hope that it, somehow, might work beyond the odd pulse of power that moved
the train a few inches and then stopped - or worse ran the train backwards
so it came off the lines.

On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 22:41, Wm  wrote:

> I think the balance between users of gnc and developers of gnc has
> broken down.
>
> My personal instinct is inclined towards development, towards software
> getting better, being more inclusive, making things easier, you get the
> drift.
>
> Unfortunately it seems some personal projects got in the way of making
> gnc 5 better for everyone.
>
> The most obvious interaction fail is transaction completion which should
> have been an improvement but has ended up as an "I'm right, you are all
> wrong" issue :(
> see 798829 – 5.0 transaction completion features are buggy (gnucash.org)
>  for details :(
>
> For small organizations / charitable organizations / whatever they are
> in your locale, v5 broke reporting in a significant way.
> see 798809 – Multicolumn report error when reopened after saving.
> (gnucash.org) 
> why? because preparing a standard set of reports is what is expected of
> small businesses, etc
> it is understood, pretty much in every jurisdiction, that you start with
> last year's balance sheet, you add in the income statement for the last
> year and present this year's balance sheet
> we call this accounting
> we call this reporting
> it is "where we were", "what happened", "where we are"
>
> Unfortunately, gnc5 *BROKE* the reporting mechanism that was working
> before.
>
> In fact, it is sufficiently broken that gnc5 CAN NOT BE USED for any set
> of accounts if a *single* date or *single* account needs to be changed.
>
> Basically, if you have organised a good set of accounts, carefully put
> them together and saved them,  YOU ARE *insert your worst word*.  It is
> that bad.
>
> Fun fact? The people that broke this don't seem concerned.
>
>
>
> --
> Wm ...
> ___
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> gnucash-user@gnucash.org
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[GNC] balance of interests between users and developers

[Wm]

I think the balance between users of gnc and developers of gnc has 
broken down.


My personal instinct is inclined towards development, towards software 
getting better, being more inclusive, making things easier, you get the 
drift.


Unfortunately it seems some personal projects got in the way of making 
gnc 5 better for everyone.


The most obvious interaction fail is transaction completion which should 
have been an improvement but has ended up as an "I'm right, you are all 
wrong" issue :(
see 798829 – 5.0 transaction completion features are buggy (gnucash.org) 
 for details :(


For small organizations / charitable organizations / whatever they are 
in your locale, v5 broke reporting in a significant way.
see 798809 – Multicolumn report error when reopened after saving. 
(gnucash.org) 
why? because preparing a standard set of reports is what is expected of 
small businesses, etc
it is understood, pretty much in every jurisdiction, that you start with 
last year's balance sheet, you add in the income statement for the last 
year and present this year's balance sheet

we call this accounting
we call this reporting
it is "where we were", "what happened", "where we are"

Unfortunately, gnc5 *BROKE* the reporting mechanism that was working before.

In fact, it is sufficiently broken that gnc5 CAN NOT BE USED for any set 
of accounts if a *single* date or *single* account needs to be changed.


Basically, if you have organised a good set of accounts, carefully put 
them together and saved them,  YOU ARE *insert your worst word*.  It is 
that bad.


Fun fact? The people that broke this don't seem concerned.



--
Wm ...
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