Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
People aren't reading the GnuCash documents. What makes you think they'll read a text on accounting? David T. On Dec 15, 2022, 6:49 PM, at 6:49 PM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: > >> I'm not sure what you mean when you say "documentation," but I don't >think the Guide or the Help would be appropriate places to make such >references. Section 2.1 of the Guide gives a few basic explanations on >underlying accounting concepts. This section, in fact, states that "you >do not need to have a complete understanding of accounting principles >to find it useful." > > >Misunderstanding? (at least what I have had to say) > > I did not write that "you do not have to have a complete >understanding principles to find it useful (gnucash)" That's not quite >a >wrong statement, but I would not have worded it that way because open >to >misinterpretation. Which is what appears to be going on here. > >a) Disagreement about what is "basics". You do not have to have a >complete understanding (or any understanding) of the parts of >accounting >that you do not use. You don't have fixed assets that are being >depreciated? Fine, then you need to know nothing about that part of the > >accounting process. . > >b) We are seeing a lot of questions about things I would consider >"basics". Is what is in the Guide enough? I can't judge that because I >am not a teacher of accounting and there is nothing in there that I >didn't already know. It might perfectly well be adequate IF new people >studied it carefully and played around with test books before trying to > >use gnucash "in production". > >c) It could conceivably be better with the suggestion that people >entirely new to double entry bookkeeping try "formal" and "journal" >mode >since that closer to what is actually being modeled. Allowing the >simplest transactions (just two accounts, one debit and one credit) to >skip entering as if in the journal saves a great deal of time once you >know what you are modeling as they make up the vast majority of >transactions. > > It would definitely be better if it suggest "FIRST" create a set of > >test books with just a handful of accounts and a small number of >transactions to be entered and then the reports that you plan to use >run, etc. don't just jump right in. The "jump right in" is OK for folks > >who already know double entry bookkeeping and especially OK for folks >who have used other accounting software (QuickBooks, Sage, etc) and so >are only needing to learn the things different "the gnucash way". It is > >not OK for folks coming from a "single entry" system. Double entry is >a >different concept. > >Michael D Novack > > > >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "documentation," but I don't think the Guide or the Help would be appropriate places to make such references. Section 2.1 of the Guide gives a few basic explanations on underlying accounting concepts. This section, in fact, states that "you do not need to have a complete understanding of accounting principles to find it useful." Misunderstanding? (at least what I have had to say) I did not write that "you do not have to have a complete understanding principles to find it useful (gnucash)" That's not quite a wrong statement, but I would not have worded it that way because open to misinterpretation. Which is what appears to be going on here. a) Disagreement about what is "basics". You do not have to have a complete understanding (or any understanding) of the parts of accounting that you do not use. You don't have fixed assets that are being depreciated? Fine, then you need to know nothing about that part of the accounting process. . b) We are seeing a lot of questions about things I would consider "basics". Is what is in the Guide enough? I can't judge that because I am not a teacher of accounting and there is nothing in there that I didn't already know. It might perfectly well be adequate IF new people studied it carefully and played around with test books before trying to use gnucash "in production". c) It could conceivably be better with the suggestion that people entirely new to double entry bookkeeping try "formal" and "journal" mode since that closer to what is actually being modeled. Allowing the simplest transactions (just two accounts, one debit and one credit) to skip entering as if in the journal saves a great deal of time once you know what you are modeling as they make up the vast majority of transactions. It would definitely be better if it suggest "FIRST" create a set of test books with just a handful of accounts and a small number of transactions to be entered and then the reports that you plan to use run, etc. don't just jump right in. The "jump right in" is OK for folks who already know double entry bookkeeping and especially OK for folks who have used other accounting software (QuickBooks, Sage, etc) and so are only needing to learn the things different "the gnucash way". It is not OK for folks coming from a "single entry" system. Double entry is a different concept. Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
Dr. Kirkby, I don't know what you did here, but this is what I see (i.e., nothing) in two different mail clients. I can see the info on the list website, though. To respond, it's a bad idea to add references to books that few will read (your own story underscores the point), no one will monitor, and no one will approve. And my experience with GnuCash and its documentation is that information that gets in is very difficult to get back out, and sits in circulation for years after its relevance or accuracy. Further, Section 2.1.4 specifically explains the fundamental aspect of double entry accounting thus: "The accounting equation is the very heart of a/double entry accounting system/. For every change in value of one account in the Accounting Equation, there must be a balancing change in another. This concept is known as the/Principle of Balance/, and is of fundamental importance for understanding*|GnuCash|*and other double entry accounting systems. When you work with*|GnuCash|*, you will always be concerned with at least 2 accounts, to keep the accounting equation balanced." While this may not be as prominently-placed as some may wish, it *does* cover the concept concisely and accurately. Other sections explain the process of actually entering transactions. It's not clear to me that adding yet another layer of information that nobody reads is a solution to the problem. David T. On 12/15/2022 10:36 AM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 05:35, David T. via gnucash-user wrote: David, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "documentation," but I don't think the Guide or the Help would be appropriate places to make such references. Section 2.1 of the Guide gives a few basic explanations on underlying accounting concepts. This section, in fact, states that "you do not need to have a complete understanding of accounting principles to find it useful." This contradicts what you and Michael want to say. Perhaps a balance in the advice in the Guide could be found, one that reassures the new user that they can effectively use GnuCash, and suggests consulting additional resources on double entry accounting. It does seem to me that the section starts from the very basics Equity = Assets - Liabilities but then doesn’t provide enough information about double entry accounting to make use of the software. If one asks on this mailing list people are generally very helpful, but at least some people feel that they should not need to explain how to do double entry accounting principles. Yet the manual does start like that. However, if the manual started with “It is assumed that the reader understands double entry accounting “, then 90% of people would just uninstall the software. As for including actual references, I have misgivings. Two huge issues: 1. Who would decide on the titles that would be sanctioned for inclusion? Ask people for suggestions. Might I suggest https://www.amazon.co.uk/Accounts-Demystified-Astonishingly-Simple-Accounting/dp/1292084847/ It’s in its 7th edition, so it is obviously selling well. It is not written by an accountant. As someone wrote earlier, the ability to do a job doesn’t imply the ability to teach the job. However, I must admit I do have some reservations about the fact that the author is not a qualified accountant. But the fact it has gone though multiple editions, and sold millions of copies, suggests any significant errors would have been bought to the attention of the author. 2. Who would monitor the literature to ensure that the list was kept up to date? Don’t know Once you get into these issues, the idea becomes much more challenging, and I'm not sure it would change anything in the long run. People would just not read those books. Some will, but I have a confession to make about the above book. I bought a copy, read it a little, found it boring, so put it down. I really don’t find the subject that interesting. Then forget that I had it, so ordered a copy. One day I discovered that I have two copies of the book, although one is an edition previous to the other. I must make an effort to read it. Adding a brief summary about PayPal/Venmo to the Using GnuCash wiki page would at least give people who use these a source they could consult to help set them up. It does seem to come up on the lists somewhat frequently. There’s no doubt that small businesses, which the software is aimed at, often use PayPal. Large businesses, which is not what the software is suitable for, will rarely accept PayPal. I think some statements about how to handle fees when selling , as charged by credit card companies, PayPal, Amazon, Alibaba etc would be useful. David T. Dave. -- Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd, drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ Telephone
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 05:35, David T. via gnucash-user < gnucash-user@gnucash.org> wrote: > David, > > I'm not sure what you mean when you say "documentation," but I don't think > the Guide or the Help would be appropriate places to make such references. > Section 2.1 of the Guide gives a few basic explanations on underlying > accounting concepts. This section, in fact, states that "you do not need to > have a complete understanding of accounting principles to find it useful." > This contradicts what you and Michael want to say. Perhaps a balance in the > advice in the Guide could be found, one that reassures the new user that > they can effectively use GnuCash, and suggests consulting additional > resources on double entry accounting. It does seem to me that the section starts from the very basics Equity = Assets - Liabilities but then doesn’t provide enough information about double entry accounting to make use of the software. If one asks on this mailing list people are generally very helpful, but at least some people feel that they should not need to explain how to do double entry accounting principles. Yet the manual does start like that. However, if the manual started with “It is assumed that the reader understands double entry accounting “, then 90% of people would just uninstall the software. > As for including actual references, I have misgivings. Two huge issues: > > 1. Who would decide on the titles that would be sanctioned for inclusion? Ask people for suggestions. Might I suggest https://www.amazon.co.uk/Accounts-Demystified-Astonishingly-Simple-Accounting/dp/1292084847/ It’s in its 7th edition, so it is obviously selling well. It is not written by an accountant. As someone wrote earlier, the ability to do a job doesn’t imply the ability to teach the job. However, I must admit I do have some reservations about the fact that the author is not a qualified accountant. But the fact it has gone though multiple editions, and sold millions of copies, suggests any significant errors would have been bought to the attention of the author. > 2. Who would monitor the literature to ensure that the list was kept up to > date? Don’t know Once you get into these issues, the idea becomes much more challenging, and > I'm not sure it would change anything in the long run. People would just > not read those books. Some will, but I have a confession to make about the above book. I bought a copy, read it a little, found it boring, so put it down. I really don’t find the subject that interesting. Then forget that I had it, so ordered a copy. One day I discovered that I have two copies of the book, although one is an edition previous to the other. I must make an effort to read it. Adding a brief summary about PayPal/Venmo to the Using GnuCash wiki page > would at least give people who use these a source they could consult to > help set them up. It does seem to come up on the lists somewhat frequently. There’s no doubt that small businesses, which the software is aimed at, often use PayPal. Large businesses, which is not what the software is suitable for, will rarely accept PayPal. I think some statements about how to handle fees when selling , as charged by credit card companies, PayPal, Amazon, Alibaba etc would be useful. > David T. Dave. > > -- Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd, drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
David, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "documentation," but I don't think the Guide or the Help would be appropriate places to make such references. Section 2.1 of the Guide gives a few basic explanations on underlying accounting concepts. This section, in fact, states that "you do not need to have a complete understanding of accounting principles to find it useful." This contradicts what you and Michael want to say. Perhaps a balance in the advice in the Guide could be found, one that reassures the new user that they can effectively use GnuCash, and suggests consulting additional resources on double entry accounting. As for including actual references, I have misgivings. Two huge issues: 1. Who would decide on the titles that would be sanctioned for inclusion? 2. Who would monitor the literature to ensure that the list was kept up to date? Once you get into these issues, the idea becomes much more challenging, and I'm not sure it would change anything in the long run. People would just not read those books. Adding a brief summary about PayPal/Venmo to the Using GnuCash wiki page would at least give people who use these a source they could consult to help set them up. It does seem to come up on the lists somewhat frequently. David T. On Dec 15, 2022, 12:41 AM, at 12:41 AM, David Cousens wrote: >Michael, >I agree that rather than trying to include Accounting 101 in the >GnuCash >documentation is likely inapprpriate. It may be appropriate however to >provide a >list of basic accounting textbooks that new users can refer to >including books >from a number of the different jurisdictions and in the different >languages that >Gnucash encompasses. AFAIK most of the English language books I am >familiar with >are available in US, Australian and UK editions with the same basic >common >format from the major publishers. I think there is enough in the guide >at the >moment to make new users aware that GnuCash has an inbuilt double entry >approach >and that they need to understand that to utilize GnuCash effectively. > >David Cousens > >On Wed, 2022-12-14 at 09:23 -0500, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: >> >> > > Given the length of this thread and the apparent confusion >documenting >> > > PayPal in GnuCash, it might be helpful for someone to add a >section to the >> > > wiki page at "Using GnuCash" on the different methods people have >> > > outlined. >> > > IMHO, the Guide and Help cover the overall concepts well enough. >> > > >> I think it would perhaps be better if instead the Guide and Help >> provided some suggested, readily available Accounting 101 (or even >more >> basic Bookkeeping 101) texts. >> >> The gnucash guide should be more focused on "Keeping double entry >books >> using gnucash" (what in gnucash might be different). An introduction >to >> the concept of double entry bookkeeping, yes, but not details like >what >> is being discussed here and certainly not "all the different ways >people >> have chosen to do this, whether right or wrong in the accounting >sense". >> >> The guide to a word processor, for example, should be about using the > >> tool, but not trying to include things like "how to write a god >essay". >> >> But IF it was wanted (to include a more comprehensive guide) the >> qualifications to write such a thing NOT "experienced using gnucash" >(an >> experienced user) or "experienced designing/writing gnucash" (a >> developer) but "an experienced teacher of accounting". Sorry, I am >> experienced doing double entry bookkeeping and in my day have taught >> many subjects, but not accounting. Note that I am not saying enough >to >> be an accountant, because being able to do something well does not >mean >> that one can teach it well. >> >> Michael D Novack >> >> >> >> ___ >> gnucash-user mailing list >> gnucash-user@gnucash.org >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >> - >> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
Michael, I agree that rather than trying to include Accounting 101 in the GnuCash documentation is likely inapprpriate. It may be appropriate however to provide a list of basic accounting textbooks that new users can refer to including books from a number of the different jurisdictions and in the different languages that Gnucash encompasses. AFAIK most of the English language books I am familiar with are available in US, Australian and UK editions with the same basic common format from the major publishers. I think there is enough in the guide at the moment to make new users aware that GnuCash has an inbuilt double entry approach and that they need to understand that to utilize GnuCash effectively. David Cousens On Wed, 2022-12-14 at 09:23 -0500, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: > > > > Given the length of this thread and the apparent confusion documenting > > > PayPal in GnuCash, it might be helpful for someone to add a section to the > > > wiki page at "Using GnuCash" on the different methods people have > > > outlined. > > > IMHO, the Guide and Help cover the overall concepts well enough. > > > > I think it would perhaps be better if instead the Guide and Help > provided some suggested, readily available Accounting 101 (or even more > basic Bookkeeping 101) texts. > > The gnucash guide should be more focused on "Keeping double entry books > using gnucash" (what in gnucash might be different). An introduction to > the concept of double entry bookkeeping, yes, but not details like what > is being discussed here and certainly not "all the different ways people > have chosen to do this, whether right or wrong in the accounting sense". > > The guide to a word processor, for example, should be about using the > tool, but not trying to include things like "how to write a god essay". > > But IF it was wanted (to include a more comprehensive guide) the > qualifications to write such a thing NOT "experienced using gnucash" (an > experienced user) or "experienced designing/writing gnucash" (a > developer) but "an experienced teacher of accounting". Sorry, I am > experienced doing double entry bookkeeping and in my day have taught > many subjects, but not accounting. Note that I am not saying enough to > be an accountant, because being able to do something well does not mean > that one can teach it well. > > Michael D Novack > > > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
Michael, I'll note that my suggestion was specifically and purposefully to add the text to the wiki, and not to the Guide or Help. David T. On Dec 14, 2022, 5:25 PM, at 5:25 PM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: > >>> Given the length of this thread and the apparent confusion >documenting >>> PayPal in GnuCash, it might be helpful for someone to add a section >to the >>> wiki page at "Using GnuCash" on the different methods people have >outlined. >>> IMHO, the Guide and Help cover the overall concepts well enough. >>> >I think it would perhaps be better if instead the Guide and Help >provided some suggested, readily available Accounting 101 (or even more > >basic Bookkeeping 101) texts. > >The gnucash guide should be more focused on "Keeping double entry books > >using gnucash" (what in gnucash might be different). An introduction to > >the concept of double entry bookkeeping, yes, but not details like what > >is being discussed here and certainly not "all the different ways >people >have chosen to do this, whether right or wrong in the accounting >sense". > >The guide to a word processor, for example, should be about using the >tool, but not trying to include things like "how to write a god essay". > >But IF it was wanted (to include a more comprehensive guide) the >qualifications to write such a thing NOT "experienced using gnucash" >(an >experienced user) or "experienced designing/writing gnucash" (a >developer) but "an experienced teacher of accounting". Sorry, I am >experienced doing double entry bookkeeping and in my day have taught >many subjects, but not accounting. Note that I am not saying enough to >be an accountant, because being able to do something well does not mean > >that one can teach it well. > >Michael D Novack > > > >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
Given the length of this thread and the apparent confusion documenting PayPal in GnuCash, it might be helpful for someone to add a section to the wiki page at "Using GnuCash" on the different methods people have outlined. IMHO, the Guide and Help cover the overall concepts well enough. I think it would perhaps be better if instead the Guide and Help provided some suggested, readily available Accounting 101 (or even more basic Bookkeeping 101) texts. The gnucash guide should be more focused on "Keeping double entry books using gnucash" (what in gnucash might be different). An introduction to the concept of double entry bookkeeping, yes, but not details like what is being discussed here and certainly not "all the different ways people have chosen to do this, whether right or wrong in the accounting sense". The guide to a word processor, for example, should be about using the tool, but not trying to include things like "how to write a god essay". But IF it was wanted (to include a more comprehensive guide) the qualifications to write such a thing NOT "experienced using gnucash" (an experienced user) or "experienced designing/writing gnucash" (a developer) but "an experienced teacher of accounting". Sorry, I am experienced doing double entry bookkeeping and in my day have taught many subjects, but not accounting. Note that I am not saying enough to be an accountant, because being able to do something well does not mean that one can teach it well. Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
I think you're thinking of so-called "suspense" accounts? It would seem to me that tracking what PayPal won't release isn't necessary in my books-- any more than I need to track when the bank freezes a large check I deposit. I just carry that balance until it can be used. David T. On Dec 14, 2022, 2:48 PM, at 2:48 PM, "Dr. David Kirkby" wrote: >On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 at 05:04, David T. wrote: > >> Given the length of this thread and the apparent confusion >documenting >> PayPal in GnuCash, it might be helpful for someone to add a section >to the >> wiki page at "Using GnuCash" on the different methods people have >outlined. >> IMHO, the Guide and Help cover the overall concepts well enough. >> > >Once I get a bit more proficient at the program, I would not mind doing >this. > >I saw another thread once on PayPal here about "Pending transactions" >Someone suggested an account was set up for those. I have one such >transaction at the minute, as someone bought a calibration kit, but >PayPal >is not going to release all of the money until it is delivered - only >part >of it. So I withdrew some, but other money is pending - I don't have >access >to it now, but expect to later. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
On Wed, 14 Dec 2022 at 05:04, David T. wrote: > Given the length of this thread and the apparent confusion documenting > PayPal in GnuCash, it might be helpful for someone to add a section to the > wiki page at "Using GnuCash" on the different methods people have outlined. > IMHO, the Guide and Help cover the overall concepts well enough. > Once I get a bit more proficient at the program, I would not mind doing this. I saw another thread once on PayPal here about "Pending transactions" Someone suggested an account was set up for those. I have one such transaction at the minute, as someone bought a calibration kit, but PayPal is not going to release all of the money until it is delivered - only part of it. So I withdrew some, but other money is pending - I don't have access to it now, but expect to later. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
I think that documentation might best be generalized to apply to Venmo and other payment services besides the :"traditional" credit cards. On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 11:05 PM David T. via gnucash-user < gnucash-user@gnucash.org> wrote: > Given the length of this thread and the apparent confusion documenting > PayPal in GnuCash, it might be helpful for someone to add a section to the > wiki page at "Using GnuCash" on the different methods people have outlined. > IMHO, the Guide and Help cover the overall concepts well enough. > > David T. > > On Dec 14, 2022, 6:41 AM, at 6:41 AM, R Losey wrote: > >True... I don't get income via Paypal... I just pay for stuff using it. > > > > > >On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 10:45 PM Dr. David Kirkby < > >drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 at 23:01, R Losey wrote: > >> > >> > I'm very simple-minded, I guess. > >> > > >> > I treat Paypal just an an expense... so, for the transaction above, > >I > >> > would enter in the Bank account > >> > > >> > Payee: Paypal (Google) > >> > with the expense category Expenses->Utilities->Internet > >> > > >> > >> I would have suggested that the GnuCash documentation should have > >something > >> about how to handle PayPal, but it seems as though multiple people > >handle > >> it multiple different ways. You treat PayPal as an expensive, but I > >see it > >> as an asset. > >> > >> Dave > >> -- > >> Dr. David Kirkby, > >> Kirkby Microwave Ltd, > >> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk > >> https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ > >> Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 > >> > >> Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. > >> Registered office: > >> Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, > >United > >> Kingdom > >> ___ > >> gnucash-user mailing list > >> gnucash-user@gnucash.org > >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > >> - > >> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > >> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > >> > > > > > >-- > >_ > >Richard Losey > >rlo...@gmail.com > >Micah 6:8 > >___ > >gnucash-user mailing list > >gnucash-user@gnucash.org > >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > >- > >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > -- David Carlson ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
Given the length of this thread and the apparent confusion documenting PayPal in GnuCash, it might be helpful for someone to add a section to the wiki page at "Using GnuCash" on the different methods people have outlined. IMHO, the Guide and Help cover the overall concepts well enough. David T. On Dec 14, 2022, 6:41 AM, at 6:41 AM, R Losey wrote: >True... I don't get income via Paypal... I just pay for stuff using it. > > >On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 10:45 PM Dr. David Kirkby < >drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: > >> On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 at 23:01, R Losey wrote: >> >> > I'm very simple-minded, I guess. >> > >> > I treat Paypal just an an expense... so, for the transaction above, >I >> > would enter in the Bank account >> > >> > Payee: Paypal (Google) >> > with the expense category Expenses->Utilities->Internet >> > >> >> I would have suggested that the GnuCash documentation should have >something >> about how to handle PayPal, but it seems as though multiple people >handle >> it multiple different ways. You treat PayPal as an expensive, but I >see it >> as an asset. >> >> Dave >> -- >> Dr. David Kirkby, >> Kirkby Microwave Ltd, >> drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk >> https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ >> Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 >> >> Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. >> Registered office: >> Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, >United >> Kingdom >> ___ >> gnucash-user mailing list >> gnucash-user@gnucash.org >> To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >> https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >> - >> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. >> > > >-- >_ >Richard Losey >rlo...@gmail.com >Micah 6:8 >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
Yes, I eventually realized that you hold money in Paypal, so it would need to be an asset account like any other checking account. On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 11:35 PM Dr. David Kirkby < drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: > On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 at 23:07, R Losey wrote: > > > Ah; if you're going to hold money in the PayPal account, I think it would > > be an asset account, from which you transfer money from the bank to > Paypal > > whenever, and then you reduce money when you purchase something via > Paypal. > > > > I have in the past removed any money asap, as they can lock accounts for > “your own security”. However, despite being in the UK, I have some > customers who want to pay in Euros or USD, despite I make it clear I charge > more. When USD arrives in my account, it makes little sense to pay currency > conversion fees to convert to GBP, then later buy something in USD, paying > more currency conversion fees. So if I don’t need the money, there are > financial advantages to holding USD and Euros, rather than converting to > GBP. > > My accountant told me to treat PayPal as an asset, which was my original > reason for doing so. > > Dave > -- > Dr. David Kirkby, > Kirkby Microwave Ltd, > drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk > https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ > Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 > > Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. > Registered office: > Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United > Kingdom > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > -- _ Richard Losey rlo...@gmail.com Micah 6:8 ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
True... I don't get income via Paypal... I just pay for stuff using it. On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 10:45 PM Dr. David Kirkby < drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: > On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 at 23:01, R Losey wrote: > > > I'm very simple-minded, I guess. > > > > I treat Paypal just an an expense... so, for the transaction above, I > > would enter in the Bank account > > > > Payee: Paypal (Google) > > with the expense category Expenses->Utilities->Internet > > > > I would have suggested that the GnuCash documentation should have something > about how to handle PayPal, but it seems as though multiple people handle > it multiple different ways. You treat PayPal as an expensive, but I see it > as an asset. > > Dave > -- > Dr. David Kirkby, > Kirkby Microwave Ltd, > drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk > https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ > Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 > > Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. > Registered office: > Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United > Kingdom > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > -- _ Richard Losey rlo...@gmail.com Micah 6:8 ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 at 23:07, R Losey wrote: > Ah; if you're going to hold money in the PayPal account, I think it would > be an asset account, from which you transfer money from the bank to Paypal > whenever, and then you reduce money when you purchase something via Paypal. > I have in the past removed any money asap, as they can lock accounts for “your own security”. However, despite being in the UK, I have some customers who want to pay in Euros or USD, despite I make it clear I charge more. When USD arrives in my account, it makes little sense to pay currency conversion fees to convert to GBP, then later buy something in USD, paying more currency conversion fees. So if I don’t need the money, there are financial advantages to holding USD and Euros, rather than converting to GBP. My accountant told me to treat PayPal as an asset, which was my original reason for doing so. Dave -- Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd, drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 at 23:01, R Losey wrote: > I'm very simple-minded, I guess. > > I treat Paypal just an an expense... so, for the transaction above, I > would enter in the Bank account > > Payee: Paypal (Google) > with the expense category Expenses->Utilities->Internet > I would have suggested that the GnuCash documentation should have something about how to handle PayPal, but it seems as though multiple people handle it multiple different ways. You treat PayPal as an expensive, but I see it as an asset. Dave -- Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd, drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
Ah; if you're going to hold money in the PayPal account, I think it would be an asset account, from which you transfer money from the bank to Paypal whenever, and then you reduce money when you purchase something via Paypal. On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 6:52 AM Dr. David Kirkby < drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: > On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 at 01:28, David Cousens > wrote: > > > > > Dave, > > > > The different approaches with this mainly reflect different > circumstances. > > > Yes, I can see that. > > > > > PayPal to some extent acts a bit like a bank so my first thought would be > > to > > treat them the same as you would treat a bank account, but the > appropriate > > way > > to treat it depends on how you actually use your account with them. > > > > If you maintain a positive balance in the Paypal account from which > > payments are > > made to vendors then it is reasonable to treat a PayPal account as an > asset > > account of type bank as they are not extending credit to you. > > > I do not have any credit facilities with PayPal. I have in the past > withdrawn funds immediately. However, I am likely to stop this and maintain > positive balances for USD and Euro because I make the occasional sales in > USD and Euros, and frequently buy in those currencies. Keeping positive > balances will reduce currency conversion fees. So I would definitely > consider PayPal an asset, not a liability. > > > If they extend credit to you, i.e. they pay the vendors immediately and > > then you > > pay out the balance owing to them at the end of the month, i.e. the > account > > balance is negative the majority of the time, then they are functioning > > more as > > a credit provider and a Liability account is a more appropriate way to > > treat the > > account. > > > That’s not the case with me. > > You wouldn't necessarily need to raise an invoice to cover a payment to > > PayPal > > just as you wouldn't when you pay off your credit card with a bank. > > > > Okay, so if I think the following is a reasonable way to transfer money > from the bank account to pay for goods with PayPal, with PayPal configured > as an asset > > 1) Open bank account in GnuCash > 2) Perform a transfer between the two assets > Debit account: Assets -> PayPal > GBP > Credit account: Assets -> Bank account > > > > > The main purpose of Customers and Vendors and the business features > around > > them > > is to avoid having to maintain individual accounts receivable and > accounts > > payable accounts for each customer or vendor you interact with and to > > provide > > the information to manage the credit that is extended to you by vendors > > and the > > credit you extend to your customers and the effect it has on cash flow. > > > We are required here to keep records of “who you bought and sold to (unless > you run a retail business)” > > https://www.gov.uk/running-a-limited-company/company-and-accounting-records > > I believe that my accountant told me that should be name and address. For > me at least, having everyone as a vendor or customer makes some sense and > consistently, but I think a transfer between the two assets makes more > sense for transfers between PayPal and the bank account. > > Hope this clarifies things a bit. > > > Yes, it is becoming clearer. > > > > David > > > Dave > -- > Dr. David Kirkby, > Kirkby Microwave Ltd, > drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk > https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ > Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 > > Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. > Registered office: > Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United > Kingdom > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > -- _ Richard Losey rlo...@gmail.com Micah 6:8 ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
I'm very simple-minded, I guess. I treat Paypal just an an expense... so, for the transaction above, I would enter in the Bank account Payee: Paypal (Google) with the expense category Expenses->Utilities->Internet On Fri, Dec 9, 2022 at 2:01 PM Dr. David Kirkby < drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote: > I have the following accounts, and am buying something in GBP. > > Assets -> Accounts Receivable -> GBP > Assets -> Bank account > Assets -> PayPal -> GBP > Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet > Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP > > I paid Google £15 for using some cloud storage (OneDrive) using PayPal. So > PayPal took the money from the bank account and paid Google. > > *If I were NOT using PayPal, this is the process I would go through.* > > *Under Business -> Vendor -> New Bill* > Create a bill and post that to these accounts > *Expense Account:* Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet > *Post to Account: * Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP > > *Under Business -> Vendor -> Process Payment* > Process the payment > *, using these accounts* > *Post to*: Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP > *Transfer Account:* Assets -> Bank account > > Am I doing that all correctly done, if not using PayPal ? > > Assuming that is, how can I modify the process so the account* Assets -> > PayPal -> GBP* account gets used? > > Dr David Kirkby Ph.D > Email: drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk Web: > https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ > Kirkby Microwave Ltd (Tel 01621-680100 / +44 1621-680100) > Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT. > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > -- _ Richard Losey rlo...@gmail.com Micah 6:8 ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
On Sun, 11 Dec 2022 at 01:28, David Cousens wrote: > > Dave, > > The different approaches with this mainly reflect different circumstances. Yes, I can see that. > > PayPal to some extent acts a bit like a bank so my first thought would be > to > treat them the same as you would treat a bank account, but the appropriate > way > to treat it depends on how you actually use your account with them. > > If you maintain a positive balance in the Paypal account from which > payments are > made to vendors then it is reasonable to treat a PayPal account as an asset > account of type bank as they are not extending credit to you. I do not have any credit facilities with PayPal. I have in the past withdrawn funds immediately. However, I am likely to stop this and maintain positive balances for USD and Euro because I make the occasional sales in USD and Euros, and frequently buy in those currencies. Keeping positive balances will reduce currency conversion fees. So I would definitely consider PayPal an asset, not a liability. If they extend credit to you, i.e. they pay the vendors immediately and > then you > pay out the balance owing to them at the end of the month, i.e. the account > balance is negative the majority of the time, then they are functioning > more as > a credit provider and a Liability account is a more appropriate way to > treat the > account. That’s not the case with me. You wouldn't necessarily need to raise an invoice to cover a payment to > PayPal > just as you wouldn't when you pay off your credit card with a bank. Okay, so if I think the following is a reasonable way to transfer money from the bank account to pay for goods with PayPal, with PayPal configured as an asset 1) Open bank account in GnuCash 2) Perform a transfer between the two assets Debit account: Assets -> PayPal > GBP Credit account: Assets -> Bank account > > The main purpose of Customers and Vendors and the business features around > them > is to avoid having to maintain individual accounts receivable and accounts > payable accounts for each customer or vendor you interact with and to > provide > the information to manage the credit that is extended to you by vendors > and the > credit you extend to your customers and the effect it has on cash flow. We are required here to keep records of “who you bought and sold to (unless you run a retail business)” https://www.gov.uk/running-a-limited-company/company-and-accounting-records I believe that my accountant told me that should be name and address. For me at least, having everyone as a vendor or customer makes some sense and consistently, but I think a transfer between the two assets makes more sense for transfers between PayPal and the bank account. Hope this clarifies things a bit. Yes, it is becoming clearer. > David Dave -- Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd, drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
The easier way to approach this is to ask yourself, "what happens in the real world?" Then model that in your accounts and transactions. Thus, do you transmit funds in advance to the PayPal account? If so, make that transaction, with PayPal as an asset (just like another Bank account) then make payments from it as you finalize purchases. If not, and PayPal auto-debits in some fashion as you make purchases, then you have the option to do so as separate or in the same transaction, or simply putting 'via PayPal' in the Description, Notes or Memo as preferred. If PayPal extends credit that you then have to 'cover', then treat that as a Liability account, similar to a credit card. If the answer is, "it depends on the situation, but one or more of the above" then put the account wherever you 'normally' have a non-contra balance and proceed as above. That way, if ever you end up with a contra-balance, you'd know things are not 'normal', though that condition may be expected depending on circumstances. - I would only use Bills for actual vendors that I routinely owe for a particular purpose, not occasional or one-off purchases/charges. Utilities, Rent, Professional Services, Insurances, Inventory, et cetera are good candidates here. Even regular 'grocery' or other purchases don't quite fit the concept of 'vendor'. (an accountant can give you actual guidance for your particular use case—I'm speaking in very generic terms.) You don't have to stick to a hard and fast rule concerning accruals, just keep it simple. For example, I pay my insurance in advance, but treat them as a 'vendor'. But when I buy from Wal-Mart, that's just an expense, even though it may happen more frequently than the insurance payment. (and in that case, without accrual either) If you regularly pay your Internet service for example with PayPal, the ISP would be the vendor for which you raise a Bill, not PayPal. (and in that case 'PayPal' would be equivalent to 'VISA' or 'Checking' as an example - the source of funds, but not a vendor) Regards, Adrien On 12/10/22 12:25 PM, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: I'm intending to use the Vendors and Customers under the Business menu. Do I need to make two totally separate transactions (one bill, one invoice) to fund the PayPal account from the bank account, and the other for PayPal to pay the vendor? In which case, does PayPal need to be entered as a vendor so I can pay PayPal? Sorry, I'm really confused, and it seems multiple people have different ways of doing this - most not using the Customer/Vendor facility. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
That is not categorically true. Sellers (some at least) have the option to pass on the fees. Not sure if that is relevant to the OP's case, but the possibility does exist. Regards, Adrien On 12/10/22 11:09 AM, Chris Skudder wrote: When you BUY something using paypal, the SELLER pays their fees, not you. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
I'm looking at paypal as identical to venmo. If I do not pull payments out immediately, venmo will use the balance to pay anyone I owe. That said, I continue to use venmo as a method of payment or cost in the checking account which pays the bills. I see no reason to treat paypal differently. If I pay someone using venmo, I go to the checking account and use venmo as the "check number" , enter the debit and I'm done. If someone pays me on venmo I use venmo as the "check number" and enter the credit in the checking account that accepts the deposit. Voila. KISS! On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 7:29 PM David Cousens wrote: > > Dave, > > The different approaches with this mainly reflect different circumstances. > > PayPal to some extent acts a bit like a bank so my first thought would be > to > treat them the same as you would treat a bank account, but the appropriate > way > to treat it depends on how you actually use your account with them. > > If you maintain a positive balance in the Paypal account from which > payments are > made to vendors then it is reasonable to treat a PayPal account as an asset > account of type bank as they are not extending credit to you. > > If they extend credit to you, i.e. they pay the vendors immediately and > then you > pay out the balance owing to them at the end of the month, i.e. the account > balance is negative the majority of the time, then they are functioning > more as > a credit provider and a Liability account is a more appropriate way to > treat the > account. > > I chose to treat my Paypal account as a liability account, more for > historical > reasons than the current use of the account, but I could equally have > treated it > as an asset account for my purposes ( All that does is reverse the debit > and > credit entries to the relevant accounts), as I indicate in my reply to > Michael. > The function for me is primarily to make reconciliation and matching to > receipts > simpler. > > You wouldn't necessarily need to raise an invoice to cover a payment to > PayPal > just as you wouldn't when you pay off your credit card with a bank. > > The main purpose of Customers and Vendors and the business features around > them > is to avoid having to maintain individual accounts receivable and accounts > payable accounts for each customer or vendor you interact with and to > provide > the information to manage the credit that is extended to you by vendors > and the > credit you extend to your customers and the effect it has on cash flow. > > Hope this clarifies things a bit. > > David > > > > > On Sat, 2022-12-10 at 18:25 +, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: > > On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 at 17:09, Chris Skudder > wrote: > > > > >When you BUY something using paypal, the SELLER pays their fees, not > > >you. > > >So recording a purchase for which you paid using paypal is no > different > > >than any other purchase: > > >Debit: expense (or asset, if you're buying something that you'll > > >recognize as an asset on your balance sheet) > > >Credit: your paypal asset account if you carry a balance in it; or > > >credit a credit card account if your paypal purchases pull money > > >directly from a credit card. > > >Chris > > > > > > > I'm intending to use the Vendors and Customers under the Business menu. > Do > > I need to make two totally separate transactions (one bill, one invoice) > to > > fund the PayPal account from the bank account, and the other for PayPal > to > > pay the vendor? In which case, does PayPal need to be entered as a vendor > > so I can pay PayPal? > > > > Sorry, I'm really confused, and it seems multiple people have different > > ways of doing this - most not using the Customer/Vendor facility. > > > > Dave > > ___ > > gnucash-user mailing list > > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > > - > > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
Dave, The different approaches with this mainly reflect different circumstances. PayPal to some extent acts a bit like a bank so my first thought would be to treat them the same as you would treat a bank account, but the appropriate way to treat it depends on how you actually use your account with them. If you maintain a positive balance in the Paypal account from which payments are made to vendors then it is reasonable to treat a PayPal account as an asset account of type bank as they are not extending credit to you. If they extend credit to you, i.e. they pay the vendors immediately and then you pay out the balance owing to them at the end of the month, i.e. the account balance is negative the majority of the time, then they are functioning more as a credit provider and a Liability account is a more appropriate way to treat the account. I chose to treat my Paypal account as a liability account, more for historical reasons than the current use of the account, but I could equally have treated it as an asset account for my purposes ( All that does is reverse the debit and credit entries to the relevant accounts), as I indicate in my reply to Michael. The function for me is primarily to make reconciliation and matching to receipts simpler. You wouldn't necessarily need to raise an invoice to cover a payment to PayPal just as you wouldn't when you pay off your credit card with a bank. The main purpose of Customers and Vendors and the business features around them is to avoid having to maintain individual accounts receivable and accounts payable accounts for each customer or vendor you interact with and to provide the information to manage the credit that is extended to you by vendors and the credit you extend to your customers and the effect it has on cash flow. Hope this clarifies things a bit. David On Sat, 2022-12-10 at 18:25 +, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: > On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 at 17:09, Chris Skudder wrote: > > > When you BUY something using paypal, the SELLER pays their fees, not > > you. > > So recording a purchase for which you paid using paypal is no different > > than any other purchase: > > Debit: expense (or asset, if you're buying something that you'll > > recognize as an asset on your balance sheet) > > Credit: your paypal asset account if you carry a balance in it; or > > credit a credit card account if your paypal purchases pull money > > directly from a credit card. > > Chris > > > > I'm intending to use the Vendors and Customers under the Business menu. Do > I need to make two totally separate transactions (one bill, one invoice) to > fund the PayPal account from the bank account, and the other for PayPal to > pay the vendor? In which case, does PayPal need to be entered as a vendor > so I can pay PayPal? > > Sorry, I'm really confused, and it seems multiple people have different > ways of doing this - most not using the Customer/Vendor facility. > > Dave > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 at 17:09, Chris Skudder wrote: >When you BUY something using paypal, the SELLER pays their fees, not >you. >So recording a purchase for which you paid using paypal is no different >than any other purchase: >Debit: expense (or asset, if you're buying something that you'll >recognize as an asset on your balance sheet) >Credit: your paypal asset account if you carry a balance in it; or >credit a credit card account if your paypal purchases pull money >directly from a credit card. >Chris > I'm intending to use the Vendors and Customers under the Business menu. Do I need to make two totally separate transactions (one bill, one invoice) to fund the PayPal account from the bank account, and the other for PayPal to pay the vendor? In which case, does PayPal need to be entered as a vendor so I can pay PayPal? Sorry, I'm really confused, and it seems multiple people have different ways of doing this - most not using the Customer/Vendor facility. Dave ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
When you BUY something using paypal, the SELLER pays their fees, not you. So recording a purchase for which you paid using paypal is no different than any other purchase: Debit: expense (or asset, if you're buying something that you'll recognize as an asset on your balance sheet) Credit: your paypal asset account if you carry a balance in it; or credit a credit card account if your paypal purchases pull money directly from a credit card. Chris __ From: [1]gnucash-user-requ...@gnucash.org Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2022, 12:00 PM To: [2]gnucash-user@gnucash.org Subject: gnucash-user Digest, Vol 237, Issue 31 Message: 2 Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2022 14:50:05 + From: "Dr. David Kirkby" [3] To: [4]stepbystepf...@comcast.net Cc: [5]gnucash-user@gnucash.org Subject: Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction? Message-ID: [6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 at 01:19, Michael or Penny Novack < [7]stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote: On 12/9/2022 7:01 PM, David Cousens wrote: However, I do NOT understand why you were treating your Paypal account as a liability. AFAIK, Paypal does not offer credit. PayPal do offer credit [8]https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/paypal-virtual-credit although I consider the PayPal account an asset. It's much like a bank account - money goes in and out. It's a bit more complicated though, as often transactions involve another currency. Selling things with PayPal obviously adds another bit of complexity as there are fees then, but for now I just want to sort out how to record purchases - I will worry about sales later. Michael D Novack Dave References 1. mailto:gnucash-user-requ...@gnucash.org 2. mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org 3. mailto:drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk 4. mailto:stepbystepf...@comcast.net 5. mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org 6. mailto:canx10hafdo7ipn4xzyvmghsaa250yk4vofbcxr5jx4a-gt3...@mail.gmail.com 7. mailto:stepbystepf...@comcast.net 8. https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/paypal-virtual-credit ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 at 00:01, David Cousens wrote: > David > > I treat my Paypal account as a Liability account, As I wrote earlier, I treat mine as an Asset. To use the business features, so you have the vendor record, I would have a > separate PayPal Liability account. On purchase record the bill to credit > Accounts payable and debit the appropriate expense account as normal. To > record > PayPal paying the vendor, debit the Accounts Payable and credit the Paypal > Liability, essential make a payment from the Paypal Liability account. I > don't > know if the account checking on the business features payment process will > prevent this or not. > > Then to record the transfer of funds from your bank account to Paypal > credit the > bank account and debit the Paypal liability account. > Thank you for the suggestion. I tried that, by creating Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> PayPal (GBP) Then I created a billl, and posted it to that account. However, when I paid the bill from my bank account, there's no record of the transaction in Assets -> PayPal (GBP) account. The only record of the transaction is in the bank account. All I have achieved is creating another Accounts Payable account, with a different name. There's no connection whatsoever between that and the PayPal account. I must be doing something wrong. > David Cousens > Dave ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 at 01:19, Michael or Penny Novack < stepbystepf...@comcast.net> wrote: > On 12/9/2022 7:01 PM, David Cousens wrote: > > However, I do NOT understand why you were treating your Paypal account > as a liability. AFAIK, Paypal does not offer credit. PayPal do offer credit https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/paypal-virtual-credit although I consider the PayPal account an asset. It's much like a bank account - money goes in and out. It's a bit more complicated though, as often transactions involve another currency. Selling things with PayPal obviously adds another bit of complexity as there are fees then, but for now I just want to sort out how to record purchases - I will worry about sales later. Michael D Novack > Dave ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
Michael You are right but I just find it convenient to reconcile the Paypal account against my statement from them and my bank account against the statement from the bank, rather than having to find the payments to Paypal in my bank account records. I could just as easily use an asset account with reversed debit credits of course. My bank account records don't have a description of the purchase whereas the Paypal records do. Makes it easier to select the appropriate expense account to assign a particular purchase. The additional work in maintaining the Paypal account offsets any extra work in having to match the amounts in the bank records to receipts to identify the appropriate expense account. I was assuming David Kirby was wanting to use the business features to maintain a trail to the vendors On Fri, 2022-12-09 at 20:19 -0500, Michael or Penny Novack wrote: > On 12/9/2022 7:01 PM, David Cousens wrote: > > > > I treat my Paypal account as a Liability account, just as you would treat > > purchases with a credit card. Mine is linked to a bank account from which > > funds > > are automatically transferred to keep the balance in the PayPal account at > > 0. ( > > I no longer accept payments through it and only use it for purchases). I > > also > > don't use the business features anymore. > > OK, while you HAVE a "Paypal Account" it appears that in this case > Paypal is being used just as an agent << not unlike when I purchase > something online paying with a credit card and the vendor is using > Paypal as the agent >> > > So your transaction could simply be debit the expense and credit the > bank account. > > However, I do NOT understand why you were treating your Paypal account > as a liability. AFAIK, Paypal does not offer credit. Look, people can > make on-line purchases with a credit card but also often with a debit > card. The former is a liability account, the latter is not. This sort of > thing is not "by company". This we would think of VISA as a credit card > (what they do) BUT they also issue debit cards << often given as gifts > >> When you pay using a VISA credit card you are incurring liability > but when paying with a VISA debit card (a gift card) you are paying with > an asset. > > > Michael D Novack > > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
On 12/9/2022 7:01 PM, David Cousens wrote: I treat my Paypal account as a Liability account, just as you would treat purchases with a credit card. Mine is linked to a bank account from which funds are automatically transferred to keep the balance in the PayPal account at 0. ( I no longer accept payments through it and only use it for purchases). I also don't use the business features anymore. OK, while you HAVE a "Paypal Account" it appears that in this case Paypal is being used just as an agent << not unlike when I purchase something online paying with a credit card and the vendor is using Paypal as the agent >> So your transaction could simply be debit the expense and credit the bank account. However, I do NOT understand why you were treating your Paypal account as a liability. AFAIK, Paypal does not offer credit. Look, people can make on-line purchases with a credit card but also often with a debit card. The former is a liability account, the latter is not. This sort of thing is not "by company". This we would think of VISA as a credit card (what they do) BUT they also issue debit cards << often given as gifts >> When you pay using a VISA credit card you are incurring liability but when paying with a VISA debit card (a gift card) you are paying with an asset. Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
David I treat my Paypal account as a Liability account, just as you would treat purchases with a credit card. Mine is linked to a bank account from which funds are automatically transferred to keep the balance in the PayPal account at 0. ( I no longer accept payments through it and only use it for purchases). I also don't use the business features anymore. To use the business features, so you have the vendor record, I would have a separate PayPal Liability account. On purchase record the bill to credit Accounts payable and debit the appropriate expense account as normal. To record PayPal paying the vendor, debit the Accounts Payable and credit the Paypal Liability, essential make a payment from the Paypal Liability account. I don't know if the account checking on the business features payment process will prevent this or not. Then to record the transfer of funds from your bank account to Paypal credit the bank account and debit the Paypal liability account. David Cousens On Fri, 2022-12-09 at 20:00 +, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: > I have the following accounts, and am buying something in GBP. > > Assets -> Accounts Receivable -> GBP > Assets -> Bank account > Assets -> PayPal -> GBP > Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet > Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP > > I paid Google £15 for using some cloud storage (OneDrive) using PayPal. So > PayPal took the money from the bank account and paid Google. > > *If I were NOT using PayPal, this is the process I would go through.* > > *Under Business -> Vendor -> New Bill* > Create a bill and post that to these accounts > *Expense Account:* Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet > *Post to Account: * Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP > > *Under Business -> Vendor -> Process Payment* > Process the payment > *, using these accounts* > *Post to*: Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP > *Transfer Account:* Assets -> Bank account > > Am I doing that all correctly done, if not using PayPal ? > > Assuming that is, how can I modify the process so the account* Assets -> > PayPal -> GBP* account gets used? > > Dr David Kirkby Ph.D > Email: drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk Web: > https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ > Kirkby Microwave Ltd (Tel 01621-680100 / +44 1621-680100) > Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT. > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
On Fri, 9 Dec 2022 at 20:20, wrote: > Hello, David: > > I have the same kind of transactions in my small business bookkeeping as > you describe here. My responses are interleaved below. I think most businesses will use PayPal at some point. > > > *If I were NOT using PayPal, this is the process I would go through.* > > > > *Under Business -> Vendor -> New Bill* > > Create a bill and post that to these accounts > > *Expense Account:* Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet > > *Post to Account: * Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP > > > > *Under Business -> Vendor -> Process Payment* > > Process the payment > > *, using these accounts* > > *Post to*: Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP > > *Transfer Account:* Assets -> Bank account > > > > Am I doing that all correctly done, if not using PayPal ? > > I do not use the Business -> Vendor features to handle such > transactions, even for business expenses. If the funds are leaving my > possession as part of the payment, I do not see a reason to involve > Accounts Payable. I can understand that. But I asked another question the other day, and was told that vendor reports (or similar wording / implications) we possible if one went via Accounts Payable. Can you generate reports for specific vendors with your system? So I follow this process: > > Create a simple transaction with these accounts > *Asset Account:* Assets -> Bank account > *Other Account:* Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet > > > ...how can I modify the process so the account* Assets -> > > PayPal -> GBP* account gets used? > If I am using Paypal, which keeps a zero balance, then as soon as I pay > for something with Paypal, Paypal funds that amount by charging my bank > account (or credit card, sometimes). I follow a process with two simple > transactions: I like to keep a zero PayPal balance, but find it’s not always possible. Also, if one buys and sells multiple currencies, as I do, it saves on currency conversion fees if one keeps USD and GBP separately. > > *Asset Account:* Assets -> Paypal account -> GBP > *Expense Account:* Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet > > *Asset Account:* Assets -> Paypal account -> GBP > *Other Account:* Assets -> Bank account > > This means that the expense is recorded in the Expense Account, the > Paypal ledger has two matching transactions to reconcile against my > Paypal statement, and the Bank account ledger has a single transaction > to reconcile against the Bank statement. I have not tried reconciling PayPal yet. That looks to be tricky, as you can not go back and see the balance at some time in the past. I would be interested to hear from others about this. I would rather not put two entirely separate transactions - I thought splits was a way around that, but I might be wrong. > > > Hope this helps! Yes, it does. If nobody else comes up with another way, I will do two transactions like you. > > >—Jim DeLaHunt > > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > -- Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd, drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Buying with PayPal - how do I split the transaction?
Hello, David: I have the same kind of transactions in my small business bookkeeping as you describe here. My responses are interleaved below. On 2022-12-09 12:00, Dr. David Kirkby wrote: I have the following accounts, and am buying something in GBP. Assets -> Accounts Receivable -> GBP Assets -> Bank account Assets -> PayPal -> GBP Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP I paid Google £15 for using some cloud storage (OneDrive) using PayPal. So PayPal took the money from the bank account and paid Google. *If I were NOT using PayPal, this is the process I would go through.* *Under Business -> Vendor -> New Bill* Create a bill and post that to these accounts *Expense Account:* Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet *Post to Account: * Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP *Under Business -> Vendor -> Process Payment* Process the payment *, using these accounts* *Post to*: Liabilities -> Accounts Payable -> GBP *Transfer Account:* Assets -> Bank account Am I doing that all correctly done, if not using PayPal ? I do not use the Business -> Vendor features to handle such transactions, even for business expenses. If the funds are leaving my possession as part of the payment, I do not see a reason to involve Accounts Payable. So I follow this process: Create a simple transaction with these accounts *Asset Account:* Assets -> Bank account *Other Account:* Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet ...how can I modify the process so the account* Assets -> PayPal -> GBP* account gets used? If I am using Paypal, which keeps a zero balance, then as soon as I pay for something with Paypal, Paypal funds that amount by charging my bank account (or credit card, sometimes). I follow a process with two simple transactions: *Asset Account:* Assets -> Paypal account -> GBP *Expense Account:* Expenses -> Utilities -> Internet *Asset Account:* Assets -> Paypal account -> GBP *Other Account:* Assets -> Bank account This means that the expense is recorded in the Expense Account, the Paypal ledger has two matching transactions to reconcile against my Paypal statement, and the Bank account ledger has a single transaction to reconcile against the Bank statement. Hope this helps! —Jim DeLaHunt ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
