Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account
Hi. I've haven't finalized my method to accomplish the fund transfer at cost, but it does involve selling the specified number of fund units, using the lots utility and scrubbing. This will generate an orphan capital gain which can then be used to calculate the cost basis for the specified units. The entries from the scrubbing are then deleted from the account and the sell transaction is modified with the value of the calculated cost basis. The lot and scrubbing utility are again used and should produce a total orphan capital gain of 0 and the proper entries and transfer to the other account. This procedure will also create incorrect entries into the price database for the respective mutual fund units, which should be deleted. I'm not quite finished looking into this but it seems to be the way to go since scrubbing maintains the allotment of the units on a FIFO basis and future transfers can be done on the remaining lots. -Original Message- From: gnucash-user On Behalf Of D via gnucash-user Sent: February 6, 2019 7:38 AM To: alen siljak@gmx. com ; Gnucash Users Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account On February 6, 2019, at 2:10 PM, cicko wrote: >Hi, Harry, >What I do is simply create a transaction which subtracts shares from >one accounts and puts them into the other. >This, of course, does not track the original prices. For that you'd >need to do something similar to what scrubbing does. Note that I don't >use scrubbing as I found it makes things worse for me rather than >better. To my understanding, scrubbing will work at all only if you >sell. It will then match the sold split(s) to the purchased split(s). >However, if you buy 10 units twice (10 + 10) at different prices, and >then sell (or move) 15 at once, I don't GnuCash will help you much in >keeping track of original purchase prices for the lot. Cicko, you're wrong on this point. Gnucash does keep track of each of these lots, and will calculate gains on the separate lots when you scrub lots. The scrub function in this case will actually take your original sell transaction and create lot-based sell splits, and then separate gains transactions for each lot. I have found these transactions to be accurate for mutual funds, where commissions and fees are not specified. With stock sales, I get tripped up by the fees and commissions, which I manually adjust after the fact. Some have noted that a user could record their stock purchases in the same way (i.e., roll the fees into the purchase price) but that rubs my sensibilities (such as they are) the wrong way.I David >In that regard, I'm also interested in what others are doing. For those >rare cases when I do sell, I created a Python script that performs "scrubbing" >in-memory and calculates the original prices for the lots but does not >write anything to the book. Then I can create transactions manually to >reflect the real life. I actually use it mostly for the accurate >calculation of the average purchase price as it takes into account only >the prices for the shares I actually own, assuming FIFO, of course. >-- >Sent from: >https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgnucas >h.1415818.n4.nabble.com%2FGnuCash-User-f1415819.html&data=02%7C01%7 >C%7C7a4b1647d8fb49ad0fa308d68c388322%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 >%7C1%7C0%7C636850571671394911&sdata=d4MJb%2FQ%2FRqsaKh69kz7G2HxFy2O >7wZ4PYjsztwMykTM%3D&reserved=0 >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists >.gnucash.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgnucash-user&data=02%7C01%7C%7C >7a4b1647d8fb49ad0fa308d68c388322%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1 >%7C0%7C636850571671404917&sdata=%2FnWyjr5No27KGsXf2Q2Pe81KG8EzwZyQc >QlpL%2Bcz4YA%3D&reserved=0 If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please >see https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.gnuca sh.org%2Fwiki%2FMailing_Lists&data=02%7C01%7C%7C7a4b1647d8fb49ad0fa308d6 8c388322%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636850571671404917& ;sdata=U%2BQTH1ogqmxcApdhboDu3x5AVNv0I051Uuc%2FxEE9Zmo%3D&reserved=0 for more information. >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.gnuc ash.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgnucash-user&data=02%7C01%7C%7C7a4b1647d8 fb49ad0fa308d68c388322%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435
Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account
On February 6, 2019, at 2:10 PM, cicko wrote: >Hi, Harry, >What I do is simply create a transaction which subtracts shares from one >accounts and puts them into the other. >This, of course, does not track the original prices. For that you'd need to >do something similar to what scrubbing does. Note that I don't use scrubbing >as I found it makes things worse for me rather than better. To my >understanding, scrubbing will work at all only if you sell. It will then >match the sold split(s) to the purchased split(s). However, if you buy 10 >units twice (10 + 10) at different prices, and then sell (or move) 15 at >once, I don't GnuCash will help you much in keeping track of original >purchase prices for the lot. Cicko, you're wrong on this point. Gnucash does keep track of each of these lots, and will calculate gains on the separate lots when you scrub lots. The scrub function in this case will actually take your original sell transaction and create lot-based sell splits, and then separate gains transactions for each lot. I have found these transactions to be accurate for mutual funds, where commissions and fees are not specified. With stock sales, I get tripped up by the fees and commissions, which I manually adjust after the fact. Some have noted that a user could record their stock purchases in the same way (i.e., roll the fees into the purchase price) but that rubs my sensibilities (such as they are) the wrong way.I David >In that regard, I'm also interested in what others are doing. For those rare >cases when I do sell, I created a Python script that performs "scrubbing" >in-memory and calculates the original prices for the lots but does not write >anything to the book. Then I can create transactions manually to reflect the >real life. I actually use it mostly for the accurate calculation of the >average purchase price as it takes into account only the prices for the >shares I actually own, assuming FIFO, of course. >-- >Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see >https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account
Hi, Harry, What I do is simply create a transaction which subtracts shares from one accounts and puts them into the other. This, of course, does not track the original prices. For that you'd need to do something similar to what scrubbing does. Note that I don't use scrubbing as I found it makes things worse for me rather than better. To my understanding, scrubbing will work at all only if you sell. It will then match the sold split(s) to the purchased split(s). However, if you buy 10 units twice (10 + 10) at different prices, and then sell (or move) 15 at once, I don't GnuCash will help you much in keeping track of original purchase prices for the lot. In that regard, I'm also interested in what others are doing. For those rare cases when I do sell, I created a Python script that performs "scrubbing" in-memory and calculates the original prices for the lots but does not write anything to the book. Then I can create transactions manually to reflect the real life. I actually use it mostly for the accurate calculation of the average purchase price as it takes into account only the prices for the shares I actually own, assuming FIFO, of course. -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account
Harry, The procedures associated with buying and selling Stock in the Guide https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest-buy-stock1.html https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest-stockprice1.html https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest-sell1.html aprticularly the section on selling with lots. along with https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Concept_of_Lots The transfer can likely be handled as two transactions, one selling units in the fund you are transferring units from and the other buying units in the fund you are transferring to. Any expenses would be charged to an appropriate brokerage expenses accounts. In this case since their is no capital gain or loss involved presumably the buying and selling price will be the cost price for the lots involved. This should make any capital gains and loss calculations 0. One side effect of this approach is that the recording of the purchase date for a lot of the first fund will not transfer to thelot for the second fund which may affect future capital gains/loss calculations. These would have to be calculated manually. Both of the above transactions will require a transfer account which could be a brokerage account under which both fund accounts live for example (see the guide on setting up invetment accounts https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest_accounts1.html for how to do this). There should be a credit to the account you are transferring funds from and a debit to the brokerage account. Then there should be a credit from the Brokerage account and a debit to the account for the new fund for the money going into the new fund. If there are expenses involved these will a credit to the brokerage account and debit to the appropriate expense account. The amounts of the credit for expense and the credit for the transfer to the new fund from the brokerage account should sum to equal the debit to the brokerage account associated with the transfer of funds from the old account. Both the buy and sell transactions will obviously occur at the same time. Using this approach may also attempt to generate transactions for 0 amounts to accounts associated with recording capital gains and losses. I don't know how and if GnuCash handles this case. It should not create the 0 amount transactions but if it does you could report it as a bug. The above is a generic description of one possible approach to handling the type of transfer you describe and should not be interpreted as accounting advice or even as the only or correct way to handle the transactions involved. Whether it is appropriate for your case will depend on the details of the transactions involved given in the statements from your broker or institution handlng the funds and your local financial regulations and how they impact the treatment. Intuit/Quicken as a commercial product may be able to provide an exact methodology as they will have legal and accounting experts employed who can give jurisdiction tailored advice and customize their software for a specific jurisdiction. GnuCash has no such specific expertise available as it is free software and totally developed and maintained by volunteers (in many jurisdictions around the world) as Michael Novak and others have indicated. David Cousens - David Cousens -- Sent from: http://gnucash.1415818.n4.nabble.com/GnuCash-User-f1415819.html ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account
On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 10:17 AM Harry Foerster wrote: > It seems this email request has gone sideways a bit. > > The actual transactions are being handled by the financial institutions > accordingly and reported to me in statements. I fully believe their > accountants are following the proper Canadian financial security laws. > > The crust of my request for assistance was how I could personally record > these transaction into Gnucash; what steps or procedures does Gnucash have > to allow the transfer, on the cost basis, of units between accounts in > Gnucash. Any suggestions or hints on a path to follow is appreciated. > > Technically, our answer remains the same, 'Ask your accountant.' However, once your accountant has given you an answer regarding how Canadian accountants handle such transactions in their accounting reports to the government, you can go the the GnuCash Tutorial. There you can read the Investments section which only covers certain specific cases but describes a lot of detail about the inner workings of GnuCash and often leads users to their own creative solutions to coaxing GnuCash into generating similar reports. There has also been a lot of discussion in this maillist over the years and sometimes a user can describe details about, say, how the 'Lots' feature works or how unrealized income is calculated in reports. Your question probably revolves around when and how to track unrealized gains or convert them to realized gains. While I know absolutely nothing about how you do that in Canada, I do know it is far different from the way it is done in the US, and Carte Blanche assumptions are probably wrong. There may be some Canadian users able to share how they track similar situations, perhaps at your local library. Most of what you will find here is based on the assumption that the stock or fund is bought or sold from the same security account at the same brokerage house, not 'in kind' transfers between brokers or from your safety deposit box to your broker. Good Luck, David Carlson ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account
It seems this email request has gone sideways a bit. The actual transactions are being handled by the financial institutions accordingly and reported to me in statements. I fully believe their accountants are following the proper Canadian financial security laws. The crust of my request for assistance was how I could personally record these transaction into Gnucash; what steps or procedures does Gnucash have to allow the transfer, on the cost basis, of units between accounts in Gnucash. Any suggestions or hints on a path to follow is appreciated. -Original Message- From: gnucash-user On Behalf Of Michael or Penny Novack Sent: February 5, 2019 8:58 AM To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org Subject: Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account On 2/4/2019 8:09 PM, David Carlson wrote: > If you are in the US and both funds are within the same custodial > account the answer is trivial, just sell one and buy the other. It > only matters when you withdraw cash. > > If you are somehow moving shares from one custodian to another, that > is more complicated. > > If they are non-custodial accounts ask your accountant. > > David Carlson > This (correct) answer points out that this was NOT a gnucash question but rather a question about how to account for a transaction of this sort no matter what was being used for the bookkeeping (even old fashioned pen and ink on paper). The problem with questions of this sort is that while many of us here do know the answer (and "allowed" to use that knowledge for our own books, few if any of us hold the "credentials" allowing us to advise others. That's why we have to say "ask your accountant". Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.gnuc ash.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fgnucash-user&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce56a3fc006 da4d11c64608d68b7a7976%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C63684975 5465077636&sdata=xhU08OV4oFifkESEK51d%2FOY%2BB1wmHHdKXDib4Vxx%2B74%3D&am p;reserved=0 If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.gnuca sh.org%2Fwiki%2FMailing_Lists&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ce56a3fc006da4d11c64608d6 8b7a7976%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636849755465077636& ;sdata=0pPAgKPt%2B2xVBID7YueviGHqp8CUJW216kL3eQDr4nE%3D&reserved=0 for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account
On 2/4/2019 8:09 PM, David Carlson wrote: If you are in the US and both funds are within the same custodial account the answer is trivial, just sell one and buy the other. It only matters when you withdraw cash. If you are somehow moving shares from one custodian to another, that is more complicated. If they are non-custodial accounts ask your accountant. David Carlson This (correct) answer points out that this was NOT a gnucash question but rather a question about how to account for a transaction of this sort no matter what was being used for the bookkeeping (even old fashioned pen and ink on paper). The problem with questions of this sort is that while many of us here do know the answer (and "allowed" to use that knowledge for our own books, few if any of us hold the "credentials" allowing us to advise others. That's why we have to say "ask your accountant". Michael D Novack ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account
Feel free to experiment your transactions; I'd recommend doing a simplified transfer on a simple data file first and testing the output. Please test the portfolio and advanced portfolio reports because they may not handle these types of transfers, and file bugs on bugzilla if the reports produce undesirable output. On Tue., 5 Feb. 2019, 08:37 Harry Foerster Hello I'm a recent user of Gnucash coming over from the Quicken world. > > > > I would like to get some guidance on how to properly transfer a portion of > a > mutual fund total units in account X into another mutual fund account Y. > The > transferred units from account X are taken out on a FIFO basis and into > account Y maintaining the cost basis. This transfer is not a sale and > purchase and as such does not involve capital gains or losses. I've looked > at the concept of lots and scrubbing but I'm uncertain on how the transfer > gets into the other account. > > > > Thanks > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Transferring portion of mutual fund account to another fund account
If you are in the US and both funds are within the same custodial account the answer is trivial, just sell one and buy the other. It only matters when you withdraw cash. If you are somehow moving shares from one custodian to another, that is more complicated. If they are non-custodial accounts ask your accountant. David Carlson On Mon, Feb 4, 2019, 6:37 PM Harry Foerster Hello I'm a recent user of Gnucash coming over from the Quicken world. > > > > I would like to get some guidance on how to properly transfer a portion of > a > mutual fund total units in account X into another mutual fund account Y. > The > transferred units from account X are taken out on a FIFO basis and into > account Y maintaining the cost basis. This transfer is not a sale and > purchase and as such does not involve capital gains or losses. I've looked > at the concept of lots and scrubbing but I'm uncertain on how the transfer > gets into the other account. > > > > Thanks > > ___ > gnucash-user mailing list > gnucash-user@gnucash.org > To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: > https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user > If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see > https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. > - > Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. > You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. > ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists for more information. - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
