Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Mattia Rizzolo]

On Fri, Dec 03, 2021 at 06:52:57PM -0500, D. via gnucash-user wrote:
> Placeholder account registers are displayed as greyed out. While it's
> not necessarily obvious upon first viewing, it becomes clearer when
> you try to add a transaction (and it prevents you).

Indeed, I agree there are plenty of details that are telling you to not
touch those splits (the number and effectivness of which depends from
where you are actually trying to touch them).  But well, it feels like
all of them are subpar.

> I do agree with the OP that the way gnucash handles transactions in
> placeholder accounts is very confusing. I've raised this point in the
> past
> (https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-devel/2017-February/040345.html).
> 
> Clearly, it's a complicated issue.

I have a feeling that this "placeholder" flag ought to be split.

It might just the way I'm using gnucash, but the way I started using
placeholder accounts is basically to use them only as an internal nodes
(), which do not
contain any data (transactions in this case) (incidentally, I also do
not have any internal node that is not a placeholder account).

I think that ought to be the real "placeholder", whereas a separate
"read-only" flag coule be useful to set for all the other cases where
you want to freeze the account from any possible future change
whatsoever.

However I realize such change is likely to be:
 1) not trivial to implement
 2) not easy at all to deploy to already existing books (because neither
the "new placeholder" I described above nor the "read-only" flags
match the current behaviour)
 3) possibly controversial due to the plenty of ways one might be
managing their books


So I guess for now the way is to set them to placeholder and pay
attention to the edits one does :D

-- 
regards,
Mattia Rizzolo

GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540  .''`.
More about me:  https://mapreri.org : :'  :
Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri  `. `'`
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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[D. via gnucash-user]

Adrien, 

Placeholder account registers are displayed as greyed out. While it's not 
necessarily obvious upon first viewing, it becomes clearer when you try to add 
a transaction (and it prevents you).

I do agree with the OP that the way gnucash handles transactions in placeholder 
accounts is very confusing. I've raised this point in the past 
(https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-devel/2017-February/040345.html).

Clearly, it's a complicated issue. 

David T.


 Original Message 
From: Adrien Monteleone 
Sent: Fri Dec 03 13:22:58 EST 2021
To: gnucash-u...@lists.gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

Maybe the warning could be more helpful. (via a more accurate description)

If the issue involves affecting a placeholder account that shouldn't be 
edited, and *not* just the editing of a reconciled transaction, the 
warning should inform the user this is the case. (or maybe the register 
should show some special designation for placeholder accounts, so the 
user would catch this at a glance)

While the rules around the reconciled warning have been relaxed, there 
are times where editing them is acceptable, but without remembering 
which accounts were marked placeholders, this incomplete warning can 
result in 'unexpected' behavior.

Though I'll concede this particular case still at least prevents 
'inadvertent' editing since you have to dismiss the warning.

Regards,
Adrien

On 12/3/21 8:37 AM, Derek Atkins wrote:
> HI,
> 
> On Fri, December 3, 2021 9:17 am, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 02, 2021 at 08:33:51PM -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
>>> Mark the account as a PlaceHolder account and it'll be read-only.
>>
>> Oh, that's a nice trick I didn't think of!  Thanks!
>>
>> Howver, it seems to me that it doesn't fully lock down the account.  If
>> I tried to change a split belonging to that account from "the other
>> side", it first nags me about changing a reconciled split, then it
>> errors out saying that "the account doesn't allow transactions" (because
>> it's read-only), but it then still proceeds to record the changes,
>> regardless of the warning.
>> Is that the expected behaviour?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> GnuCash told you "don't do that" but you did it anyways.
> 
> -derek
> 

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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Adrien Monteleone]

On 12/3/21 12:31 PM, Derek Atkins wrote:

Technically, I don't think "placeholder" is fully read-only.  It will warn
you if you open the account, and it will prevent you entering transactions
in the account.  But I don't think it is designed to (or will) prevent
modification of entries in the account.

-derek


Maybe I read Mattia's comment wrong, but it appeared that despite the 
warning, and *not* choosing to commit the edit, the edit was happening 
anyway.


Regards,
Adrien

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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Derek Atkins]

Adrien,

On Fri, December 3, 2021 1:24 pm, Adrien Monteleone wrote:
> I forgot to mention that if it errors out due to a read-only condition,
> but *still* changes the data, that would be a bug. Either it is
> read-only, or it is not.

Technically, I don't think "placeholder" is fully read-only.  It will warn
you if you open the account, and it will prevent you entering transactions
in the account.  But I don't think it is designed to (or will) prevent
modification of entries in the account.

> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
> You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.

-derek

-- 
   Derek Atkins 617-623-3745
   de...@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com
   Computer and Internet Security Consultant

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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Adrien Monteleone]

Maybe slow down and be careful when editing transactions?

And as you pointed out, they are reconciled, so you get a warning that 
helps you slow down. That can help prevent 'inadvertent' edits, but it 
won't stop a deliberate change. (as you discovered)


Regards,
Adrien

On 12/3/21 11:43 AM, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:

You can see it similarly to when you close a bank account or a credit
card: you totally want to keep it around, but you don't want to touch
the transactions involved with it anymore.
In those cases, do you just go on with life hoping you're not going to
mess with it?


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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Adrien Monteleone]

I forgot to mention that if it errors out due to a read-only condition, 
but *still* changes the data, that would be a bug. Either it is 
read-only, or it is not.


Regards,
Adrien

On 12/3/21 8:37 AM, Derek Atkins wrote:

HI,

On Fri, December 3, 2021 9:17 am, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:

On Thu, Dec 02, 2021 at 08:33:51PM -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:

Mark the account as a PlaceHolder account and it'll be read-only.


Oh, that's a nice trick I didn't think of!  Thanks!

Howver, it seems to me that it doesn't fully lock down the account.  If
I tried to change a split belonging to that account from "the other
side", it first nags me about changing a reconciled split, then it
errors out saying that "the account doesn't allow transactions" (because
it's read-only), but it then still proceeds to record the changes,
regardless of the warning.
Is that the expected behaviour?


Yes.

GnuCash told you "don't do that" but you did it anyways.

-derek



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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Adrien Monteleone]

Maybe the warning could be more helpful. (via a more accurate description)

If the issue involves affecting a placeholder account that shouldn't be 
edited, and *not* just the editing of a reconciled transaction, the 
warning should inform the user this is the case. (or maybe the register 
should show some special designation for placeholder accounts, so the 
user would catch this at a glance)


While the rules around the reconciled warning have been relaxed, there 
are times where editing them is acceptable, but without remembering 
which accounts were marked placeholders, this incomplete warning can 
result in 'unexpected' behavior.


Though I'll concede this particular case still at least prevents 
'inadvertent' editing since you have to dismiss the warning.


Regards,
Adrien

On 12/3/21 8:37 AM, Derek Atkins wrote:

HI,

On Fri, December 3, 2021 9:17 am, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:

On Thu, Dec 02, 2021 at 08:33:51PM -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:

Mark the account as a PlaceHolder account and it'll be read-only.


Oh, that's a nice trick I didn't think of!  Thanks!

Howver, it seems to me that it doesn't fully lock down the account.  If
I tried to change a split belonging to that account from "the other
side", it first nags me about changing a reconciled split, then it
errors out saying that "the account doesn't allow transactions" (because
it's read-only), but it then still proceeds to record the changes,
regardless of the warning.
Is that the expected behaviour?


Yes.

GnuCash told you "don't do that" but you did it anyways.

-derek



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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Mattia Rizzolo]

On Fri, Dec 03, 2021 at 11:50:11AM -0500, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:
> On 12/3/2021 10:27 AM, Glenn Fowler wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > What about just making the file read only with no write permission?
> > 
> > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 9:17 AM Mattia Rizzolo  wrote:
> 
> THAT is looking in the right direction. If you want to "freeze" the books as
> of a certain state make a copy of the file that is "read only". You could
> use the Julian date in the name you give this file so you can tell it apart
> from "freezes" made at other times.


Oh, reading it again my mail I noticed I wrote "I reconciled the whole
book" - apologies, that wasn't what I meant.  I accidentally typed
"book" instead of "account".


I'm really only referring to a single account across the whole book,
that is still otherwise in active use.


You can see it similarly to when you close a bank account or a credit
card: you totally want to keep it around, but you don't want to touch
the transactions involved with it anymore.
In those cases, do you just go on with life hoping you're not going to
mess with it?

-- 
regards,
Mattia Rizzolo

GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540  .''`.
More about me:  https://mapreri.org : :'  :
Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri  `. `'`
Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia  `-


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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Michael or Penny Novack]

On 12/3/2021 10:27 AM, Glenn Fowler wrote:

Hi,

What about just making the file read only with no write permission?

On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 9:17 AM Mattia Rizzolo  wrote:


THAT is looking in the right direction. If you want to "freeze" the 
books as of a certain state make a copy of the file that is "read only". 
You could use the Julian date in the name you give this file so you can 
tell it apart from "freezes" made at other times.


Can be done with permissions (but that CAN be overridden) or making that 
copy to medium that is "write once/read many" like burning to a DVD..


Michael D Novack


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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Glenn Fowler]

Hi,

What about just making the file read only with no write permission?

On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 9:17 AM Mattia Rizzolo  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 02, 2021 at 08:33:51PM -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
> > Mark the account as a PlaceHolder account and it'll be read-only.
>
> Oh, that's a nice trick I didn't think of!  Thanks!
>
> Howver, it seems to me that it doesn't fully lock down the account.  If
> I tried to change a split belonging to that account from "the other
> side", it first nags me about changing a reconciled split, then it
> errors out saying that "the account doesn't allow transactions" (because
> it's read-only), but it then still proceeds to record the changes,
> regardless of the warning.
> Is that the expected behaviour?
>
> --
> regards,
> Mattia Rizzolo
>
> GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540  .''`.
> More about me:  https://mapreri.org : :'  :
> Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri  `. `'`
> Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia  `-
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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Derek Atkins]

HI,

On Fri, December 3, 2021 9:17 am, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 02, 2021 at 08:33:51PM -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
>> Mark the account as a PlaceHolder account and it'll be read-only.
>
> Oh, that's a nice trick I didn't think of!  Thanks!
>
> Howver, it seems to me that it doesn't fully lock down the account.  If
> I tried to change a split belonging to that account from "the other
> side", it first nags me about changing a reconciled split, then it
> errors out saying that "the account doesn't allow transactions" (because
> it's read-only), but it then still proceeds to record the changes,
> regardless of the warning.
> Is that the expected behaviour?

Yes.

GnuCash told you "don't do that" but you did it anyways.

-derek

-- 
   Derek Atkins 617-623-3745
   de...@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com
   Computer and Internet Security Consultant

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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Mattia Rizzolo]

On Thu, Dec 02, 2021 at 08:33:51PM -0500, Derek Atkins wrote:
> Mark the account as a PlaceHolder account and it'll be read-only.

Oh, that's a nice trick I didn't think of!  Thanks!

Howver, it seems to me that it doesn't fully lock down the account.  If
I tried to change a split belonging to that account from "the other
side", it first nags me about changing a reconciled split, then it
errors out saying that "the account doesn't allow transactions" (because
it's read-only), but it then still proceeds to record the changes,
regardless of the warning.
Is that the expected behaviour?

-- 
regards,
Mattia Rizzolo

GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540  .''`.
More about me:  https://mapreri.org : :'  :
Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri  `. `'`
Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia  `-
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Re: [GNC] read-only accounts

[Derek Atkins]

Hi,

On Thu, December 2, 2021 7:25 pm, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:
> Hi!
>
> while moving data that I used to keep into spreadsheets into more decent
> books, I found myself looking for a way to mark whole accounts as
> "read-only".
>
> For example: here I have an Income account that records all of the rent
> that came through a given tenant in a given apartment.
> Everything's great, but now I'd really like to make sure I'm not going
> to accidentally edit that data, while still keeping it there and
> visible.  I reconciled the whole book, which helps a bit, but I'd like
> something more… "hard" (for lack of better words right now".")
>
>
> Do anybody have any good suggestion for such use case? :)

Mark the account as a PlaceHolder account and it'll be read-only.

-derek

>
> TIA!
>
> --
> regards,
> Mattia Rizzolo
>
> GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18  4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540  .''`.
> More about me:  https://mapreri.org : :'  :
> Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri  `. `'`
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-- 
   Derek Atkins 617-623-3745
   de...@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com
   Computer and Internet Security Consultant

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