Re: Company sponsored stock plan

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 1/1/2018 4:01 PM, Klaus Dahlke wrote:




Stop --- this advice depends on jurisdiction (in the US, the
contributions if "pretax" are taxed only at distribution time many years
down the road). But there may be other complications. The employer
contribution is usually "conditional" becoming vested over time.

   Accounting for a 401k is complicated.


Acutally, I am not sure whether Wolfgang is engaged in a 401k plan or he just 
enjoyes 'share based compensation' as in my case (not unusual these days in 
Germany). The company shares I buy I can sell the next day I have acces to. 
Wolfgang mentioned reporting in Euro, so my inital guess was that it is plain 
'share based compensation'.

I did say "depends on jurisdiction".

 And we have "share based compensation" here in the US too. And that 
MAY be like you described "I can sell the next day" or maybe not (not 
until a certain amount of time has passed) and there might be other 
complications like given OPTIONS to purchase shares (so things like 
value of option till exercised or expired -- and shares so purchased 
MIGHT also have restrictions on sale attached). I suspect that at least 
some of the complications I just described might exist in Europe as well 
as other places.


But do note, ONE of the possibilities for 401k plans here IS 
contributions of company stock. A 401k does not HAVE to offer a wide 
range of investment options.


Michael




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Re: Company sponsored stock plan

[Klaus Dahlke]

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 10:00:55 -0500
Mike or Penny Novack  wrote:

> On 12/30/2017 4:39 PM, Klaus Dahlke wrote:
> > Hi Wolfgang,
> > I have modeled a comparable plan as follows: first of all, I record my 
> > salary only net. Salary is what is posted to my bank account after all 
> > deductions.
> >
> > I you don't participate in such plan, posting is straight forward, e.g.:
> > Bank <-> Income:salary -> 1000
> >
> > If you participate in the plan, a further account is helpful to show the 
> > plan contribution. Also, the amount transferred from your company to your 
> > bank is reduced by your own contribution and the taxation for companies' 
> > addition.
> Stop --- this advice depends on jurisdiction (in the US, the 
> contributions if "pretax" are taxed only at distribution time many years 
> down the road). But there may be other complications. The employer 
> contribution is usually "conditional" becoming vested over time.
> 
>   Accounting for a 401k is complicated.
> 

Acutally, I am not sure whether Wolfgang is engaged in a 401k plan or he just 
enjoyes 'share based compensation' as in my case (not unusual these days in 
Germany). The company shares I buy I can sell the next day I have acces to. 
Wolfgang mentioned reporting in Euro, so my inital guess was that it is plain 
'share based compensation'.

Let's wait and see whether Wofgang gives more information.

Best regards,
Klaus
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Re: Company sponsored stock plan

[Mike or Penny Novack]

On 12/30/2017 4:39 PM, Klaus Dahlke wrote:

Hi Wolfgang,
I have modeled a comparable plan as follows: first of all, I record my salary 
only net. Salary is what is posted to my bank account after all deductions.

I you don't participate in such plan, posting is straight forward, e.g.:
Bank <-> Income:salary -> 1000

If you participate in the plan, a further account is helpful to show the plan 
contribution. Also, the amount transferred from your company to your bank is 
reduced by your own contribution and the taxation for companies' addition.
Stop --- this advice depends on jurisdiction (in the US, the 
contributions if "pretax" are taxed only at distribution time many years 
down the road). But there may be other complications. The employer 
contribution is usually "conditional" becoming vested over time.


 Accounting for a 401k is complicated.

I'm at the other end of this process. But were I using gnucash during 
the money going in phase I probably would account for the 401k on a 
separate set of books. Like I said, the "net worth" of a 401k depends on 
lots of things like vesting and current age (can money be received 
without penalty tax in addition) and even can be conditional on why 
money taken out, and whether taken out or borrowed (if the plan allows 
that)


Michael D Novack

Michael D Novack
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Re: Company sponsored stock plan

[Klaus Dahlke]

Hi Wolfgang,
I have modeled a comparable plan as follows: first of all, I record my salary 
only net. Salary is what is posted to my bank account after all deductions.

I you don't participate in such plan, posting is straight forward, e.g.:
Bank <-> Income:salary -> 1000

If you participate in the plan, a further account is helpful to show the plan 
contribution. Also, the amount transferred from your company to your bank is 
reduced by your own contribution and the taxation for companies' addition. 
Assuming you participate with 10% of your monthly gross (e.g.150) and your 
employer will add 20% of our contribution (30 in this example) which is then 
taxed at 50% (incl all statutory taxes) the postings will be then:

Bank <-> Income:salary -> 835 (1000 - 150 -15) (typically retrieved via 
aqbanking/HBCI)
PlanContribution <-> Income:salary -> 180 (manual posting)

When the shares are bought, this transaction is typically independent of 
currency because only the number of shares count:

PlanContribution <-> Investments:MyCompanyStock -> -180 (or whatever the amount 
is if no fractions can be bought, manual posting).

On the Investment:MyCompanyStock account you set the transaction to the correct 
number of shares bought (manual posting).

I do assume that you will not have a separate bank account transactions in USD. 
The dividend payment will be then calculated by your bank and posted in Euro to 
your bank account:

Bank <-> Income:interest -> 0.10 (this is the Euro equivalent of the 0.12 USD 
dividend (HBCI retrieval )

You need the USD<-> EUR exchange rate for the correct valuation of the 
Investments:MyCompanyStock account which you track probably in USD.

BR,
Klaus




On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 21:27:19 +
Wolfgang Paul Rauchholz  wrote:

> Trying to set the following up, but can‘t get it right. I hope to find help
> here. That is the scheme:
> The base currency is in €.
> 
> 1) monthly, a certain amount (in €) is taken off salary and invested in
>  stocks (in USD)
> 2) the company adds X-% on top of the amount and stock (in USD) is bought
> 3) Reporting is done in base currency €.
> 
> Once this is done,  I need to add quarterly dividends, but I believe I saw
> something in the manual.
> 
> Thx for your help.
> -- 
> 
> Wolfgang Rauchholz
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Re: Company sponsored stock plan

[David Carlson]

It sounds like your company is setting up an account similar to what we
usually call a 401-K in the US.

Whether it actually is a 401-K or not, you can track the account in the
same way, except for the tax related issues.

You can set up GnuCash to have a brokerage account similar to the example
in the Tutorial with Security accounts as child accounts taking care to
fund them with the correct currency.  As Ignacio mentioned, it may not be
tracked correctly in the advanced portfolio report unless you modify the
example as documented in other discussions here about the Advanced
portfolio report..

Since your base currency is Euros, you will also need to take care which
transactions are in which currency and which ones handle conversions from
USD to Euros.

Good Luck

David C


On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Ignacio Fernandez Ortega  wrote:

> If you are using the multicurrency example from the guide I am sure is not
> going to work
> I dealt with the same issue last week. Take a look at
> https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2017-December/073686.html
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Wolfgang Paul Rauchholz <
> wp.rauchh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Trying to set the following up, but can‘t get it right. I hope to find
> help
> > here. That is the scheme:
> > The base currency is in €.
> >
> > 1) monthly, a certain amount (in €) is taken off salary and invested in
> >  stocks (in USD)
> > 2) the company adds X-% on top of the amount and stock (in USD) is bought
> > 3) Reporting is done in base currency €.
> >
> > Once this is done,  I need to add quarterly dividends, but I believe I
> saw
> > something in the manual.
> >
> > Thx for your help.
> > --
> >
> > Wolfgang Rauchholz
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Re: Company sponsored stock plan

[Ignacio Fernandez Ortega]

If you are using the multicurrency example from the guide I am sure is not
going to work
I dealt with the same issue last week. Take a look at
https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2017-December/073686.html


On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Wolfgang Paul Rauchholz <
wp.rauchh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Trying to set the following up, but can‘t get it right. I hope to find help
> here. That is the scheme:
> The base currency is in €.
>
> 1) monthly, a certain amount (in €) is taken off salary and invested in
>  stocks (in USD)
> 2) the company adds X-% on top of the amount and stock (in USD) is bought
> 3) Reporting is done in base currency €.
>
> Once this is done,  I need to add quarterly dividends, but I believe I saw
> something in the manual.
>
> Thx for your help.
> --
>
> Wolfgang Rauchholz
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> Please remember to CC this list on all your replies.
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