Re: Tracking a TIAA mixed fund account

[David T. via gnucash-user]

I may be misunderstanding,  but it seems like the following would work:
Assets:TIAA (cash)Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 1 (commodity)Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 2 
(commodity)Assets:TIAA:TIAA Mutual Fund (commodity)
My experience of the so called "Lifecycle" funds is that they are just like any 
other mutual funds. 
When I handle payroll deductions, the dollars go into the cash account, and a 
separate purchase transaction moves the cash into fund shares. It's a little 
cumbersome, but it allows me to ensure that the right numbers get in. 
HTH, David
 
 
  On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 8:38, AC wrote:   I want to 
start tracking my TIAA retirement portfolio for informational
purposes (no reporting needs, filings, etc.) but I need some suggestions
on structuring the account trees so that it doesn't affect my existing
accounts.  However, possibly later I'll edit things so that the paycheck
contributions are directed accordingly so I'd want the new accounts to
allow that eventually (i.e. for now I'll add contributions manually
using a virtual source and eventually go back through and move those to
withdraw from my paycheck, the amount withheld is already accounted)

The trick with my TIAA portfolio is that it has three different products
within it.  Two of them are TIAA funds (one of the lifecycle multi-asset
funds) that does not have a breakdown of the individual holdings (like a
mutual fund).  These two only document the employer contributions, my
contributions, shares and interest/dividends.  The third product is a
TIAA mutual fund for which the individual holdings are broken out with
all the same data as a typical mutual fund (shares, prices, etc.)

What I expect to have is some type of top-level account that tracks the
overall value of the portfolio in dollars and then either within that or
somewhere nearby an account or account tree for each of the three
products.  At first I had considered just making the two TIAA funds into
an account that was basically a mutual fund with a single holding but I
wasn't quite sure how to combine that with the one real mutual fund when
each of the three funds receives different amounts of contributions and
individual dividends.  Perhaps it would be a top-level account then
three sub-accounts that are all mutual funds with two of them having one
holding and the last is the broken out holding?

I don't plan on using this for any official reporting (I get those
documents already), and I don't plan on downloading statements, quotes,
or anything else.  I'll just manually track things as my statements come
in and I enter the data from those, perhaps updating symbol share prices
manually if I'm interested at a particular time.  I don't currently use
much reporting as is with my existing accounts except an occasional cash
flow report so as long as that isn't affected I'm fine.  I do currently
have a mutual fund being tracked so I want to be careful not to cause
trouble for that either.
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Re: Tracking a TIAA mixed fund account

[AC]

Seems like it might but what I want is to have the top level account
(let's just call it TIAA) follow the entire value of the portfolio.
Underneath that I want to see what the three individual funds are doing
(the two lifecycles and the mutual).  In the case of the lifecycle,
you're correct that it sort of looks like a mutual fund except that I
don't know what's actually inside it unlike a traditional MF where I
know the individual distribution of shares that make up the overall MF.

In this case then there would be three under TIAA, TIAA LC 1, TIAA LC2
and TIAA MF and I would want to see the individual values (in dollars)
of those three including the contributions to each, whatever dividends
they earn and then, in the case of TIAA MF, I'd want to have the
underlying distributions recorded just like a normal MF account.

I suppose the sticky point is having the value tracking of the whole
portfolio in addition to the individual fund values and then the MF
distributions.  Trying to get the cascade to work right.

On 2017-07-22 21:17, David T. wrote:
> I may be misunderstanding,  but it seems like the following would work:
> 
> Assets:TIAA (cash)
> Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 1 (commodity)
> Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 2 (commodity)
> Assets:TIAA:TIAA Mutual Fund (commodity)
> 
> My experience of the so called "Lifecycle" funds is that they are just like 
> any 
> other mutual funds.
> 
> When I handle payroll deductions, the dollars go into the cash account, and a 
> separate purchase transaction moves the cash into fund shares. It's a little 
> cumbersome, but it allows me to ensure that the right numbers get in.
> 
> HTH,
> David
> 
> On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 8:38, AC
>  wrote:
> I want to start tracking my TIAA retirement portfolio for informational
> purposes (no reporting needs, filings, etc.) but I need some suggestions
> on structuring the account trees so that it doesn't affect my existing
> accounts.  However, possibly later I'll edit things so that the paycheck
> contributions are directed accordingly so I'd want the new accounts to
> allow that eventually (i.e. for now I'll add contributions manually
> using a virtual source and eventually go back through and move those to
> withdraw from my paycheck, the amount withheld is already accounted)
> 
> The trick with my TIAA portfolio is that it has three different products
> within it.  Two of them are TIAA funds (one of the lifecycle multi-asset
> funds) that does not have a breakdown of the individual holdings (like a
> mutual fund).  These two only document the employer contributions, my
> contributions, shares and interest/dividends.  The third product is a
> TIAA mutual fund for which the individual holdings are broken out with
> all the same data as a typical mutual fund (shares, prices, etc.)
> 
> What I expect to have is some type of top-level account that tracks the
> overall value of the portfolio in dollars and then either within that or
> somewhere nearby an account or account tree for each of the three
> products.  At first I had considered just making the two TIAA funds into
> an account that was basically a mutual fund with a single holding but I
> wasn't quite sure how to combine that with the one real mutual fund when
> each of the three funds receives different amounts of contributions and
> individual dividends.  Perhaps it would be a top-level account then
> three sub-accounts that are all mutual funds with two of them having one
> holding and the last is the broken out holding?
> 
> I don't plan on using this for any official reporting (I get those
> documents already), and I don't plan on downloading statements, quotes,
> or anything else.  I'll just manually track things as my statements come
> in and I enter the data from those, perhaps updating symbol share prices
> manually if I'm interested at a particular time.  I don't currently use
> much reporting as is with my existing accounts except an occasional cash
> flow report so as long as that isn't affected I'm fine.  I do currently
> have a mutual fund being tracked so I want to be careful not to cause
> trouble for that either.
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Re: Tracking a TIAA mixed fund account

[David T. via gnucash-user]

The proposed structure is set up precisely as you want, down to the naming, and 
it will show total portfolio. At least it does for me.

Personally, I don’t know the precise share holdings for any of the mutual funds 
I own, so the Lifecycle funds are, for me, exactly the same.

David

P.S. Dale’s comment about the income accounts is useful, and what I do as well.

> On Jul 23, 2017, at 10:36 AM, AC  wrote:
> 
> Seems like it might but what I want is to have the top level account
> (let's just call it TIAA) follow the entire value of the portfolio.
> Underneath that I want to see what the three individual funds are doing
> (the two lifecycles and the mutual).  In the case of the lifecycle,
> you're correct that it sort of looks like a mutual fund except that I
> don't know what's actually inside it unlike a traditional MF where I
> know the individual distribution of shares that make up the overall MF.
> 
> In this case then there would be three under TIAA, TIAA LC 1, TIAA LC2
> and TIAA MF and I would want to see the individual values (in dollars)
> of those three including the contributions to each, whatever dividends
> they earn and then, in the case of TIAA MF, I'd want to have the
> underlying distributions recorded just like a normal MF account.
> 
> I suppose the sticky point is having the value tracking of the whole
> portfolio in addition to the individual fund values and then the MF
> distributions.  Trying to get the cascade to work right.
> 
> On 2017-07-22 21:17, David T. wrote:
>> I may be misunderstanding,  but it seems like the following would work:
>> 
>> Assets:TIAA (cash)
>> Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 1 (commodity)
>> Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 2 (commodity)
>> Assets:TIAA:TIAA Mutual Fund (commodity)
>> 
>> My experience of the so called "Lifecycle" funds is that they are just like 
>> any 
>> other mutual funds.
>> 
>> When I handle payroll deductions, the dollars go into the cash account, and 
>> a 
>> separate purchase transaction moves the cash into fund shares. It's a little 
>> cumbersome, but it allows me to ensure that the right numbers get in.
>> 
>> HTH,
>> David
>> 
>>On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 8:38, AC
>> wrote:
>>I want to start tracking my TIAA retirement portfolio for informational
>>purposes (no reporting needs, filings, etc.) but I need some suggestions
>>on structuring the account trees so that it doesn't affect my existing
>>accounts.  However, possibly later I'll edit things so that the paycheck
>>contributions are directed accordingly so I'd want the new accounts to
>>allow that eventually (i.e. for now I'll add contributions manually
>>using a virtual source and eventually go back through and move those to
>>withdraw from my paycheck, the amount withheld is already accounted)
>> 
>>The trick with my TIAA portfolio is that it has three different products
>>within it.  Two of them are TIAA funds (one of the lifecycle multi-asset
>>funds) that does not have a breakdown of the individual holdings (like a
>>mutual fund).  These two only document the employer contributions, my
>>contributions, shares and interest/dividends.  The third product is a
>>TIAA mutual fund for which the individual holdings are broken out with
>>all the same data as a typical mutual fund (shares, prices, etc.)
>> 
>>What I expect to have is some type of top-level account that tracks the
>>overall value of the portfolio in dollars and then either within that or
>>somewhere nearby an account or account tree for each of the three
>>products.  At first I had considered just making the two TIAA funds into
>>an account that was basically a mutual fund with a single holding but I
>>wasn't quite sure how to combine that with the one real mutual fund when
>>each of the three funds receives different amounts of contributions and
>>individual dividends.  Perhaps it would be a top-level account then
>>three sub-accounts that are all mutual funds with two of them having one
>>holding and the last is the broken out holding?
>> 
>>I don't plan on using this for any official reporting (I get those
>>documents already), and I don't plan on downloading statements, quotes,
>>or anything else.  I'll just manually track things as my statements come
>>in and I enter the data from those, perhaps updating symbol share prices
>>manually if I'm interested at a particular time.  I don't currently use
>>much reporting as is with my existing accounts except an occasional cash
>>flow report so as long as that isn't affected I'm fine.  I do currently
>>have a mutual fund being tracked so I want to be careful not to cause
>>trouble for that either.
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Re: Tracking a TIAA mixed fund account

[Eric Siegerman]

(Lost the attribution; sorry):
> Assets:TIAA (cash)
> Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 1 (commodity)
> Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 2 (commodity)
> Assets:TIAA:TIAA Mutual Fund (commodity)

I've never heard of TIAA before, but from what's been said, I
infer that an account there behaves enough like a normal
investment account for what follows to make sense, i.e. that it
can hold numerous securities, but can also directly hold cash.

If that's so, I'd make one small change to the suggested layout:
track the cash holdings in a fourth subaccount, rather than
dumping them into the parent account, like so:

Assets:TIAA (placeholder -- see below)
Assets:TIAA:Cash (cash)
Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 1 (commodity)
etc.

That way you can see at a glance how much uninvested cash the
TIAA account holds, while the parent Assets:TIAA GNC account
shows its total value.

In this scheme, you'd never enter transactions directly into
Assets:TIAA, but only into its subaccounts.  Turning the former
into a "placeholder account" would help prevent mistakes in that
regard, but is entirely optional.

  - Eric
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Re: Tracking a TIAA mixed fund account

[AC]

On 2017-07-26 12:17, Eric Siegerman wrote:
> (Lost the attribution; sorry):
>> Assets:TIAA (cash)
>> Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 1 (commodity)
>> Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 2 (commodity)
>> Assets:TIAA:TIAA Mutual Fund (commodity)
> 
> I've never heard of TIAA before, but from what's been said, I
> infer that an account there behaves enough like a normal
> investment account for what follows to make sense, i.e. that it
> can hold numerous securities, but can also directly hold cash.
> 
> If that's so, I'd make one small change to the suggested layout:
> track the cash holdings in a fourth subaccount, rather than
> dumping them into the parent account, like so:
> 
> Assets:TIAA (placeholder -- see below)
> Assets:TIAA:Cash (cash)
> Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 1 (commodity)
> etc.
> 
> That way you can see at a glance how much uninvested cash the
> TIAA account holds, while the parent Assets:TIAA GNC account
> shows its total value.
> 
> In this scheme, you'd never enter transactions directly into
> Assets:TIAA, but only into its subaccounts.  Turning the former
> into a "placeholder account" would help prevent mistakes in that
> regard, but is entirely optional.


The account does not have the ability to hold cash, whatever is sent
over to them from my paycheck is directly invested in one of the three
commodities.  The only thing the account has is a current cash value
based on the current market values of the commodities.  I'm going to try
the structure in a new file and see how it behaves.  If everything looks
ok then I'll recreate the structure in my main file and start entering
the data.
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Re: Tracking a TIAA mixed fund account

[Eric Siegerman]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 07:27:34PM -0700, AC wrote:
> The account does not have the ability to hold cash

I misunderstood the "(cash)" in:
> >> Assets:TIAA (cash)

I guess it's just the GC account type.

Which means my suggestion doesn't in fact make sense for a TIAA.

  - Eric
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Re: Tracking a TIAA mixed fund account

[Mike Alexander]

> On Jul 26, 2017, at 10:27 PM, AC  wrote:
> 
> I'm going to try
> the structure in a new file and see how it behaves.  If everything looks
> ok then I'll recreate the structure in my main file and start entering
> the data.

For what it’s worth, I’ve been doing it that way for years and it’s worked well.

One thing you might want to be aware of is that it works better if you have a 
separate top level account for each TIAA account.  I have three (a 401A and two 
403Bs) and by putting each in  separate account I can import the transaction 
files I download from the TIAA web site easily.  This makes entering my monthly 
MDO payout much easier.  The MDO payout is a retirement payment that I’m 
required by the IRS to take (so they can tax me on it).  It consists of a small 
sale in each of my funds followed by a transfer to my bank account.  Entering 
all this by hand is a real pain.

Mike

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Fwd: Re: Tracking a TIAA mixed fund account

[Dale Alspach]

I have two TIAA contracts which contain mutual funds and other similar
investments. I have a top level asset account named Retirement and below
that are asset accounts for each contract. Under each contract are accounts
for each mutual fund, ETF, etc. As far as I am aware all TIAA funds now
have symbols and quotes can be obtained from Yahoo. The only exception is
the TIAA guaranteed or stable-value fund. For that one I use pseudo shares
with 1 dollar = 1 share. So each underlying mutual fund is setup to use
prices updated by finance-quote. I download transactions
once a month from the TIAA site.

To keep things organized I have separate income accounts for tax sheltered
income and taxed income. Transactions
under the Retirement account only affect the tax sheltered income accounts.

Dale

On Jul 22, 2017 10:38 PM, "AC"  wrote:

> I may be misunderstanding,  but it seems like the following would work:
> Assets:TIAA (cash)Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 1 (commodity)Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle
> 2 (commodity)Assets:TIAA:TIAA Mutual Fund (commodity)
> My experience of the so called "Lifecycle" funds is that they are just
> like any other mutual funds.
> When I handle payroll deductions, the dollars go into the cash account,
> and a separate purchase transaction moves the cash into fund shares. It's a
> little cumbersome, but it allows me to ensure that the right numbers get
> in.
> HTH, David
>
>
>   On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 8:38, AC wrote:   I want
> to start tracking my TIAA retirement portfolio for informational
> purposes (no reporting needs, filings, etc.) but I need some suggestions
> on structuring the account trees so that it doesn't affect my existing
> accounts.  However, possibly later I'll edit things so that the paycheck
> contributions are directed accordingly so I'd want the new accounts to
> allow that eventually (i.e. for now I'll add contributions manually
> using a virtual source and eventually go back through and move those to
> withdraw from my paycheck, the amount withheld is already accounted)
>
> The trick with my TIAA portfolio is that it has three different products
> within it.  Two of them are TIAA funds (one of the lifecycle multi-asset
> funds) that does not have a breakdown of the individual holdings (like a
> mutual fund).  These two only document the employer contributions, my
> contributions, shares and interest/dividends.  The third product is a
> TIAA mutual fund for which the individual holdings are broken out with
> all the same data as a typical mutual fund (shares, prices, etc.)
>
> What I expect to have is some type of top-level account that tracks the
> overall value of the portfolio in dollars and then either within that or
> somewhere nearby an account or account tree for each of the three
> products.  At first I had considered just making the two TIAA funds into
> an account that was basically a mutual fund with a single holding but I
> wasn't quite sure how to combine that with the one real mutual fund when
> each of the three funds receives different amounts of contributions and
> individual dividends.  Perhaps it would be a top-level account then
> three sub-accounts that are all mutual funds with two of them having one
> holding and the last is the broken out holding?
>
> I don't plan on using this for any official reporting (I get those
> documents already), and I don't plan on downloading statements, quotes,
> or anything else.  I'll just manually track things as my statements come
> in and I enter the data from those, perhaps updating symbol share prices
> manually if I'm interested at a particular time.  I don't currently use
> much reporting as is with my existing accounts except an occasional cash
> flow report so as long as that isn't affected I'm fine.  I do currently
> have a mutual fund being tracked so I want to be careful not to cause
> trouble for that either.
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Re: Fwd: Re: Tracking a TIAA mixed fund account

[AC]

Yes they do all have symbols but I have no plans to download the quotes
directly from any source.  What I'm asking about is setting up the
account tree to track the numbers I'm looking for:  total value of the
whole portfolio, value of the individual products, and tracking of the
underlying mutual fund distributions in the one particular MF product.

So it's basically a cascade of accounts with a top level and multiple
sublevels and I'm just trying to get that correct so that it doesn't
cause issues with the rest of my accounts (mainly a cash flow report).

On 2017-07-22 21:55, Dale Alspach wrote:
> I have two TIAA contracts which contain mutual funds and other similar
> investments. I have a top level asset account named Retirement and below
> that are asset accounts for each contract. Under each contract are accounts
> for each mutual fund, ETF, etc. As far as I am aware all TIAA funds now
> have symbols and quotes can be obtained from Yahoo. The only exception is
> the TIAA guaranteed or stable-value fund. For that one I use pseudo shares
> with 1 dollar = 1 share. So each underlying mutual fund is setup to use
> prices updated by finance-quote. I download transactions
> once a month from the TIAA site.
> 
> To keep things organized I have separate income accounts for tax sheltered
> income and taxed income. Transactions
> under the Retirement account only affect the tax sheltered income accounts.
> 
> Dale
> 
> On Jul 22, 2017 10:38 PM, "AC"  wrote:
> 
>> I may be misunderstanding,  but it seems like the following would work:
>> Assets:TIAA (cash)Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle 1 (commodity)Assets:TIAA:Lifecycle
>> 2 (commodity)Assets:TIAA:TIAA Mutual Fund (commodity)
>> My experience of the so called "Lifecycle" funds is that they are just
>> like any other mutual funds.
>> When I handle payroll deductions, the dollars go into the cash account,
>> and a separate purchase transaction moves the cash into fund shares. It's a
>> little cumbersome, but it allows me to ensure that the right numbers get
>> in.
>> HTH, David
>>
>>
>>   On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 8:38, AC wrote:   I want
>> to start tracking my TIAA retirement portfolio for informational
>> purposes (no reporting needs, filings, etc.) but I need some suggestions
>> on structuring the account trees so that it doesn't affect my existing
>> accounts.  However, possibly later I'll edit things so that the paycheck
>> contributions are directed accordingly so I'd want the new accounts to
>> allow that eventually (i.e. for now I'll add contributions manually
>> using a virtual source and eventually go back through and move those to
>> withdraw from my paycheck, the amount withheld is already accounted)
>>
>> The trick with my TIAA portfolio is that it has three different products
>> within it.  Two of them are TIAA funds (one of the lifecycle multi-asset
>> funds) that does not have a breakdown of the individual holdings (like a
>> mutual fund).  These two only document the employer contributions, my
>> contributions, shares and interest/dividends.  The third product is a
>> TIAA mutual fund for which the individual holdings are broken out with
>> all the same data as a typical mutual fund (shares, prices, etc.)
>>
>> What I expect to have is some type of top-level account that tracks the
>> overall value of the portfolio in dollars and then either within that or
>> somewhere nearby an account or account tree for each of the three
>> products.  At first I had considered just making the two TIAA funds into
>> an account that was basically a mutual fund with a single holding but I
>> wasn't quite sure how to combine that with the one real mutual fund when
>> each of the three funds receives different amounts of contributions and
>> individual dividends.  Perhaps it would be a top-level account then
>> three sub-accounts that are all mutual funds with two of them having one
>> holding and the last is the broken out holding?
>>
>> I don't plan on using this for any official reporting (I get those
>> documents already), and I don't plan on downloading statements, quotes,
>> or anything else.  I'll just manually track things as my statements come
>> in and I enter the data from those, perhaps updating symbol share prices
>> manually if I'm interested at a particular time.  I don't currently use
>> much reporting as is with my existing accounts except an occasional cash
>> flow report so as long as that isn't affected I'm fine.  I do currently
>> have a mutual fund being tracked so I want to be careful not to cause
>> trouble for that either.
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