The need for an official GNUstep desktop
All,All of this discussion on the list has made my consider that GNUstep needs to resolve this confusion once and for all. Are we a desktop or a development environment? I believe that we can, and should, be both. One of the steps we need to take towards doing this is the creation of another project which will be the official GNUstep desktop.Up until now we've had 4 or 5 projects playing at being the official desktop in an effort to fill the void.I believe that all of this is senseless duplication and that what we need is a *coordinated* effort towards making a cohesive and attractive GNUstep desktop environment. We need to focus on what will make an exciting and easy experience for both users and developers. Whether it is done in the same repository as GNUstep or in a separate one, that's up for debug.Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas on the above?Thanks, GJC--Gregory John Casamento___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: The need for an official GNUstep desktop
Gregory John Casamento wrote: All, All of this discussion on the list has made my consider that GNUstep needs to resolve this confusion once and for all. Are we a desktop or a development environment? I believe that we can, and should, be both. One of the steps we need to take towards doing this is the creation of another project which will be the official GNUstep desktop. Up until now we've had 4 or 5 projects playing at being the official desktop in an effort to fill the void. I believe that all of this is senseless duplication and that what we need is a *coordinated* effort towards making a cohesive and attractive GNUstep desktop environment. We need to focus on what will make an exciting and easy experience for both users and developers. Whether it is done in the same repository as GNUstep or in a separate one, that's up for debug. Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas on the above? Thanks, GJC -- Gregory John Casamento ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev I'd much rather prefer GNUstep to stay a cross-platform API and development environment, rather than trying to be a bit of everything. It would hurt commercial applicability of GNUstep, such as we do at our company, if I had to deploy tons of other software together with my GNUstep app. Some for of coordination between a full-blown desktop and the GNUstep development framework would be nice, of course, but it should not directly affect GNUstep development. I'd rather see the relationship between GNUstep and it's "official" desktop be something like GTK+ or Qt are to all DEs built on it - they are foundations of them, but is also usable to build stand-alone apps. -- Saso ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: The need for an official GNUstep desktop
On 8/27/06, Sašo Kiselkov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd much rather prefer GNUstep to stay a cross-platform API and
development environment, rather than trying to be a bit of everything.
It would hurt commercial applicability of GNUstep, such as we do at our
company, if I had to deploy tons of other software together with my
GNUstep app. Some for of coordination between a full-blown desktop and
the GNUstep development framework would be nice, of course, but it
should not directly affect GNUstep development. I'd rather see the
relationship between GNUstep and it's "official" desktop be something
like GTK+ or Qt are to all DEs built on it - they are foundations of
them, but is also usable to build stand-alone apps.
I agree. Other reasons are that you'd need to reach an agreement about
what exactly this yet-another-gnustep-desktop project would be, which
in my experience is not that simple ^_^ , particularly if it's
supposed to be the "official one", and also that considering that not
many persons are working on the existing gnustep desktop projects _at
the moment_ (I mean, not many persons are working on gnustep itself
!), I don't really know how much persons will work in the end on this
hypothetical new desktop.
In fact... I'm starting more and more to think that GNUstep, instead
of trying to be a jack of all trades -- I mean, it's a programming
toolkit, no, a development environment with RAD, no, a web application
server, no, a desktop with a filemanager... etc. -- should "split"
into its sub projects ("technically" not, perhaps, but "publically"
yes).
Letting each sub-project stands on its own would enormously improve
the outside readability of the whole, and, I think, help attracting
new people more easily. It's perhaps a simple as (yet again) working
on the website to put everything into a "GNUstep" umbrella, but having
different, clearly separated sections...
Beside, coming back on the desktop idea, what exactly is wrong with,
ah, say, étoilé ;-) ? (it's not like we are not happily welcoming new
members or not doing any progresses)
--
Nicolas Roard
"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly
by." -- Douglas Adams
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Re: The need for an official GNUstep desktop
On 2006-08-27 22:35:37 +0200 Nicolas Roard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
[...]
In fact... I'm starting more and more to think that GNUstep, instead
of trying to be a jack of all trades -- I mean, it's a programming
toolkit, no, a development environment with RAD, no, a web application
server, no, a desktop with a filemanager... etc. -- should "split"
into its sub projects ("technically" not, perhaps, but "publically"
yes).
[...]
I am aware that I do not have much say in this issue, but nevertheless
I think Nicolas is absolutely right here.
As Greg points out, GNUstep CAN be both, but as Saso indicates,
GNUstep is first and foremost a development framework.
However, the above has some merit -- why not 'split' GNUstep in two
_official_ parts (and I think that is what Greg had in mind)
a) GNUstep Core -- the development framework, as it is right now
b) GNUstep Desktop -- well, the desktop itself.
The advantage would be that man-power can be pooled. So instead of
several people trying to re-invent the wheel, they will focus on ONE
(hopefully) perfect desktop, instead of several, and instead of trying
to figure out work-arounds, fixes will float back into GNUstep-Core.
Another advantage, as already pointed out by Greg, would be
_coordination_ which currently IS missing with the development of
Etoile and GWorkspace (sorry to say that). Not to mention the ones
that never meet the light of day err are released into the public due
to lack of man-power...
Plus, since it would be an official desktop, the source could (or
should) be located in the same SVN as GNUstep (Core), so it will be
much easier to get to it. Right now, you will have to KNOW where to
get GNUstep, Etoile, etc. Having a complete development and desktop
environment downloadable from ONE location, would be a tremendous
advantage.
Just my .02c
--
Chris
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Re: Re: The need for an official GNUstep desktop
Many usable applications are scattering around and most of them are one-man-projects. Below is the list I have in mind. To me, these applications are sufficient to be a nice desktop environment after some polish. I think it will be better to have everything in one place and all developers can peek into each project from time to time. And regarding to the vision of desktop environment, let's have a regular one before an evolutionary one. GWorkspace (http://www.gnustep.it/enrico/gworkspace/) GNUMail (http://www.collaboration-world.com/gnumail) Terminal (http://www.nongnu.org/backbone) Azalea (http://www.etoile-project.org) - window manager EtoileMenuServer (http://www.etoile-project.org) - menu bar Camaelon (http://www.etoile-project.org) - theme engine TalkSoup (http://talksoup.aeruder.net/) - IRC client Grr (http://www.etoile-project.org) - RSS reader Dictionary (http://www.etoile-project.org) Preview (http://home.gna.org/gsimageapps/) - image viewer Vindaloo (http://home.gna.org/gsimageapps/) - PDF viewer Affiche (http://www.collaboration-world.com/affiche), a post-it application Yen-Ju ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Re: Re: The need for an official GNUstep desktop
On 8/27/06, Yen-Ju Chen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Many usable applications are scattering around and most of them are one-man-projects. Below is the list I have in mind. To me, these applications are sufficient to be a nice desktop environment after some polish. I think it will be better to have everything in one place and all developers can peek into each project from time to time. While I think it is a good idea to have applications of a desktop environment in one place, it may not be with GNUstep "core". Here is an argument for similar situation: http://www.rubyinside.com/does-ruby-need-more-opinions-207.html GNUstep is more powerful than a foundation for a desktop environment. Because of the tight relation between GTK/GNOME, Qt/KDE, no one will try to use GTK and Qt to write server applications. ( Well, the argument here is not completely right here since GTK and Qt start as widget toolkit for xwindow. ) If we have a desktop environment with GNUstep "core" in one place, people might think GNUstep is just like GTK/Qt. Having GNUstep "core" and desktop environment in two places is not too bad for users. At least GNUstep won't be shadowed if the desktop environment successes. Yen-Ju ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Upcoming release...
I am going to create the release for both Gorm, gui and back at about midnight tonight. Please let me know when you guys decide to do the release for make and base.GJC--Gregory John Casamento___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Upcoming release...
On 2006-08-27 17:41:21 -0600 Gregory John Casamento <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I am going to create the release for both Gorm, gui and back at about midnight tonight. Please let me know when you guys decide to do the release for make and base. I'll make one for base/make real soon now... ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: GUI/Gorm code freeze
On 2006-08-26 11:01:39 -0600 Chris Vetter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Let's say there's a framework that implements one or more 'wanted' classes but are licensed under, say, BSDL. Would it be permissible to add those classes to GNUstep (since it's LGPL) or would those classes have to be 'handed over' to FSF, changing the license in the process? I would prefer that classes that we consider part of the 'core' system be assigned to the FSF and integrated as LGPL. I don't think other frameworks have to be handled that way. In many cases this can provide more flexibility for development. The only problem with separate frameworks, though, is that they have to be distributed and installed separately. With the lack of a package manager, this makes things very hard for the user. And what if the author doesn't want to change the original license but adds a section that additionally puts the code under LGPL (that is, as a dual license) provided / as long as the code is used in GNUstep? Yes, that would be much easier that having to figure out how GNUstep should be used under multiple licenses. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
[Gnustep-cvs] gnustep README
CVSROOT:/cvsroot/gnustep Module name:gnustep Changes by: Adam Fedor 06/08/28 04:10:11 Added files: . : README Log message: CVS is Obsolete CVSWeb URLs: http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewcvs/gnustep/README?cvsroot=gnustep&rev=1.1
[Gnustep-cvs] gnustep/core README.IMPORTANT
CVSROOT:/cvsroot/gnustep Module name:gnustep Changes by: Adam Fedor 06/08/28 04:10:44 Added files: core : README.IMPORTANT Log message: CVS is Obsolete CVSWeb URLs: http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewcvs/gnustep/core/README.IMPORTANT?cvsroot=gnustep&rev=1.1
[Gnustep-cvs] gnustep/Startup README.IMPORTANT
CVSROOT:/cvsroot/gnustep Module name:gnustep Changes by: Adam Fedor 06/08/28 04:10:55 Added files: Startup: README.IMPORTANT Log message: CVS is Obsolete CVSWeb URLs: http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewcvs/gnustep/Startup/README.IMPORTANT?cvsroot=gnustep&rev=1.1
