Re: Default command key under X11
On 3 May 2011, at 21:09, Ivan Vučica wrote: > On 3. svi. 2011., at 22:06, Eric Wasylishen wrote: >> My complaint with the default binding applies only to people used to a >> keyboard layout lacking separate Command and Control keys, (i.e. all non-Mac >> users). > > > Command key is also known as the Windows key or as the Super key. So, the > actual number of desktop computers without a Command key is relatively > insignificant. Not entirely - ThinkPads lack this key (at least, the IBM ones did, not sure about the Lenovo ones). I do agree that using left-alt is wrong though - no idea why that's the default, but it always bugs me. David -- Sent from my Difference Engine ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
On 3. svi. 2011., at 22:06, Eric Wasylishen wrote: > My complaint with the default binding applies only to people used to a > keyboard layout lacking separate Command and Control keys, (i.e. all non-Mac > users). Command key is also known as the Windows key or as the Super key. So, the actual number of desktop computers without a Command key is relatively insignificant. -- Ivan Vučica i...@vucica.net - http://ivan.vucica.net/ Coming soon for iPhone, Zombie Ball - http://j.mp/zbivmail smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
> Short: Control is for terminal, Command is for GUI – don't mix this Right. I prefer the Mac keyboard layout myself that has separate physical keys for these. My complaint with the default binding applies only to people used to a keyboard layout lacking separate Command and Control keys, (i.e. all non-Mac users). The GNUstep default puts the Control function on the best matching physical key, Ctrl, and puts Command on a 'wrong' key (left alt). One can argue that this makes sense because Ctrl has an established meaning in the termainal and emacs. However, I would rather have Command on the best matching physical key (Ctrl) and Control on some other key, because the cost of having Command on the wrong key is higher for me than having Control on the wrong key. I hope I clarified that point of view - both options are equally 'bad' - they put an important modifier on the wrong physical key. The GS default favours the terminal key (Control) over the GUI key (Command), which I don't like. In the end this is a small detail since it's configurable. But I think "good defaults" are really important in any UI. Eric ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 4:31 AM, Robert Slover wrote: > While I agree with Lars that the other tool kits (including windows) have it > wrong, I would not have a problem with the as-shipped default matching other > X11 toolkits. I would simply set it back to the more sensible definition it > has now, and would then forget about it. I do not use Gnome or KDE at all > (mostly use aterm and emacs, so I like emacs key bindings to remain > unmolested). BTW, I think it could be simpler these days if we focus on end products, like avoiding pure system like KDE or GNOME and target Ubuntu (Unity), Meego etc. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
Hi, I think this is a reasonable way. We already allow remapping. Control, alt, meta... are all going to create conflicts. Since I use use GNUstep alone, I am happy with the current bindings. SystemPreferences allows you to change the defaults and if you need "CUA" compatible bindings, it makes sense to activate them with a cua-following theme. Standard GNUstep doesn't follow CUA to begin with. Riccardo In data 02 maggio 2011 alle ore 11:09:20, Richard Frith-Macdonald ha scritto: On 2 May 2011, at 04:36, Eric Wasylishen wrote: Hey, Why don't we change the default command key under X11 to Control? My reasoning is that the most important uses of keyboard modifiers (by far) are the CUA key combinations like ctrl+c for copy, ctrl-v for paste, ctrl+z for undo, etc., and since every other X11 toolkit uses the Control key for these by default, I think GS should as well. It's really jarring to have to switch between Ctrl when using non-GNUstep apps and Alt when using GS apps. I know you can configure this using user defaults, but we should be using settings that fit in with gtk/qt by default, I think. Thoughts? I would say ... because the control key is already defined and has its own uses ... control and command keys are separate ... I imagine it would mess lots of stuff up if you tried to use one key for two purposes. Probably what you are really looking for is an alternative mapping of keyboard shortcuts ...I would have thought it would make sense to define a theme to remap standard shortcuts any way you like, without conflating the concepts of the different keys as far as the API is concerned. So, when using a gnome theme, you would remap the keyboard shortcuts in the menus to match whatever is normal in gnome ... but the gui internals and API would remain consistent and OSX/OpenStep compatible. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev -- Creato con il rivoluzionario client email di Opera: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
While I agree with Lars that the other tool kits (including windows) have it wrong, I would not have a problem with the as-shipped default matching other X11 toolkits. I would simply set it back to the more sensible definition it has now, and would then forget about it. I do not use Gnome or KDE at all (mostly use aterm and emacs, so I like emacs key bindings to remain unmolested). The MacOS Keyboard Preferences allow selection of the key code a modifier is assigned to and assignment of keyboard shortcuts to be controlled independently, per keyboard. Changing the modifier assignments doesn't alter their appearance in menus or anything (e.g., swapping Control and Command modifiers doesn't suddenly turn lozenge-Q in menus to caret-Q). It only effects what the interface believes you held down when it sees certain key codes. It would be nice if GNUStep allowed both the modifier assignments and the string used to represent the modifier in menu entries to be altered by user preference. In that way, a user could make the menus actually represent their keyboard (for example, the goofy Microsoft keyboard I am using right now has an asterisk on the Control key, instead of the traditional caret symbol, and the Alt key displays nothing but 'Alt'). That preference pane on the Mac is also nice in that it lets you assign preferences for menu key bindings both globally and per-app. It is very handy when the application is missing bindings for things you use often. Setting these does effect menus -- the new bindings display beside the menu title in every app they effect. --Robert On May 2, 2011, at 4:14 PM, Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf wrote: > > Am 02.05.2011 um 05:36 schrieb Eric Wasylishen: > >> Hey, >> >> Why don't we change the default command key under X11 to Control? >> >> My reasoning is that the most important uses of keyboard modifiers (by far) >> are the CUA key combinations like ctrl+c for copy, ctrl-v for paste, ctrl+z >> for undo, etc., and since every other X11 toolkit uses the Control key for >> these by default, I think GS should as well. It's really jarring to have to >> switch between Ctrl when using non-GNUstep apps and Alt when using GS apps. >> I know you can configure this using user defaults, but we should be using >> settings that fit in with gtk/qt by default, I think. Thoughts? > > Using Ctrl is historically younger than using cmd (on the Mac) or meta (on > other platforms) and stems from the omittance of such a key on the > (historical) standard PC keyboard layout. It conflicts with the Ctrl-Key > usage in terminal windows (where Ctrl-C means something completely different) > and is a typical quick and dirty Windows-Workaround that somehow became "the > standard™" like many of such Windows misconceptions. > > Short: Control is for terminal, Command is for GUI – don't mix this > >> >> Cheers. >> Eric >> ___ >> Gnustep-dev mailing list >> Gnustep-dev@gnu.org >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev > > > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
Short: Control is for terminal, Command is for GUI – don't mix this ++ ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
Am 02.05.2011 um 05:36 schrieb Eric Wasylishen: > Hey, > > Why don't we change the default command key under X11 to Control? > > My reasoning is that the most important uses of keyboard modifiers (by far) > are the CUA key combinations like ctrl+c for copy, ctrl-v for paste, ctrl+z > for undo, etc., and since every other X11 toolkit uses the Control key for > these by default, I think GS should as well. It's really jarring to have to > switch between Ctrl when using non-GNUstep apps and Alt when using GS apps. I > know you can configure this using user defaults, but we should be using > settings that fit in with gtk/qt by default, I think. Thoughts? Using Ctrl is historically younger than using cmd (on the Mac) or meta (on other platforms) and stems from the omittance of such a key on the (historical) standard PC keyboard layout. It conflicts with the Ctrl-Key usage in terminal windows (where Ctrl-C means something completely different) and is a typical quick and dirty Windows-Workaround that somehow became "the standard™" like many of such Windows misconceptions. Short: Control is for terminal, Command is for GUI – don't mix this > > Cheers. > Eric > ___ > Gnustep-dev mailing list > Gnustep-dev@gnu.org > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
On 2. svi. 2011., at 11:09, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote: > > On 2 May 2011, at 04:36, Eric Wasylishen wrote: > >> Hey, >> >> Why don't we change the default command key under X11 to Control? >> >> My reasoning is that the most important uses of keyboard modifiers (by far) >> are the CUA key combinations like ctrl+c for copy, ctrl-v for paste, ctrl+z >> for undo, etc., and since every other X11 toolkit uses the Control key for >> these by default, I think GS should as well. It's really jarring to have to >> switch between Ctrl when using non-GNUstep apps and Alt when using GS apps. >> I know you can configure this using user defaults, but we should be using >> settings that fit in with gtk/qt by default, I think. Thoughts? > > I would say ... because the control key is already defined and has its own > uses ... control and command keys are separate ... I imagine it would mess > lots of stuff up if you tried to use one key for two purposes. > Probably what you are really looking for is an alternative mapping of > keyboard shortcuts ...I would have thought it would make sense to define a > theme to remap standard shortcuts any way you like, without conflating the > concepts of the different keys as far as the API is concerned. > > So, when using a gnome theme, you would remap the keyboard shortcuts in the > menus to match whatever is normal in gnome ... but the gui internals and API > would remain consistent and OSX/OpenStep compatible. Agreed here. When rebooting into Linux on my tripleboot Mac, I love being able to keep the shortcuts as they were, but I understand the needs of GNOME/Windows users. Themes should perhaps be able to suggest switching the mappings. -- Ivan Vučica i...@vucica.net - http://ivan.vucica.net/ Coming soon for iPhone, Zombie Ball - http://j.mp/zbivmail smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote: > I would say ... because the control key is already defined and has its own > uses ... control and command keys are separate ... I imagine it would mess > lots of stuff up if you tried to use one key for two purposes. > Probably what you are really looking for is an alternative mapping of > keyboard shortcuts ...I would have thought it would make sense to define a > theme to remap standard shortcuts any way you like, without conflating the > concepts of the different keys as far as the API is concerned. > > So, when using a gnome theme, you would remap the keyboard shortcuts in the > menus to match whatever is normal in gnome ... but the gui internals and API > would remain consistent and OSX/OpenStep compatible. -- ++ Aaa ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
On 2 May 2011, at 04:36, Eric Wasylishen wrote: > Hey, > > Why don't we change the default command key under X11 to Control? > > My reasoning is that the most important uses of keyboard modifiers (by far) > are the CUA key combinations like ctrl+c for copy, ctrl-v for paste, ctrl+z > for undo, etc., and since every other X11 toolkit uses the Control key for > these by default, I think GS should as well. It's really jarring to have to > switch between Ctrl when using non-GNUstep apps and Alt when using GS apps. I > know you can configure this using user defaults, but we should be using > settings that fit in with gtk/qt by default, I think. Thoughts? I would say ... because the control key is already defined and has its own uses ... control and command keys are separate ... I imagine it would mess lots of stuff up if you tried to use one key for two purposes. Probably what you are really looking for is an alternative mapping of keyboard shortcuts ...I would have thought it would make sense to define a theme to remap standard shortcuts any way you like, without conflating the concepts of the different keys as far as the API is concerned. So, when using a gnome theme, you would remap the keyboard shortcuts in the menus to match whatever is normal in gnome ... but the gui internals and API would remain consistent and OSX/OpenStep compatible. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
Eric Wasylishen wrote: Why don't we change the default command key under X11 to Control? My reasoning is that the most important uses of keyboard modifiers (by far) are the CUA key combinations like ctrl+c for copy, ctrl-v for paste, ctrl+z for undo, etc., and since every other X11 toolkit uses the Control key for these by default, I think GS should as well. It's really jarring to have to switch between Ctrl when using non-GNUstep apps and Alt when using GS apps. I know you can configure this using user defaults, but we should be using settings that fit in with gtk/qt by default, I think. Thoughts? I'd feel rather unhappy with that change as it will break many emacs key bindings in NSTextView. Here are my favorite four: Ctrl-A: "move to beginning of line" vs. Cmd-A "select all" Ctrl-B: "move one char backward" vs. Cmd-B "bold" Ctrl-E: "move to end of line"vs. Cmd-E "enter selection into find panel" (if you have one) Ctrl-F: "move one char forward" vs. Cmd-F "find panel" (and don't tell me that char backward and forward are on the arrow keys; its faster to type control-char combinations when you are entering text), Wolfgang ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
Am 02.05.2011 um 05:36 schrieb Eric Wasylishen: > Hey, > > Why don't we change the default command key under X11 to Control? > > My reasoning is that the most important uses of keyboard modifiers (by far) > are the CUA key combinations like ctrl+c for copy, ctrl-v for paste, ctrl+z > for undo, etc., and since every other X11 toolkit uses the Control key for > these by default, I think GS should as well. It's really jarring to have to > switch between Ctrl when using non-GNUstep apps and Alt when using GS apps. I > know you can configure this using user defaults, but we should be using > settings that fit in with gtk/qt by default, I think. Thoughts? I am not sure if, it can conflict with other uses of the Control key, e.g. ctrl-Z == ^Z. And, what style do we want to follow: the MacOS definition or the Windows definition? Linux and X11 toolkits (gtk/qt) appear to follow Windows (or does Windows follow X10???). -- hns ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Default command key under X11
++ -- Sent from my GNU/Linux N900 ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Default command key under X11
Hey, Why don't we change the default command key under X11 to Control? My reasoning is that the most important uses of keyboard modifiers (by far) are the CUA key combinations like ctrl+c for copy, ctrl-v for paste, ctrl+z for undo, etc., and since every other X11 toolkit uses the Control key for these by default, I think GS should as well. It's really jarring to have to switch between Ctrl when using non-GNUstep apps and Alt when using GS apps. I know you can configure this using user defaults, but we should be using settings that fit in with gtk/qt by default, I think. Thoughts? Cheers. Eric ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
