Re: Talks about HTTP server (Was: Re: Function move request.)
Well the work on this server is progressing fast. I finished its HTTP protocol stack, using a library called GCDAsyncSocket (a public domain software) but sadly it depends on Apple's Security.framework and CFSocket. Can any of your guys go check it out a little and maybe port it to GNUstep using GSSocket and direct access to libssl? 发自我的 iPad 在 2013-5-17，17:53，Ivan Vučica ivuc...@gmail.com 写道： I recently tried GNUstepWeb and it worked for me on Debian. I think I used everything from trunk. Regarding WebUIKit, don't forget about Objective-J language and Cappuccino framework. You convert xibs into cibs and load them directly. I'm writing a university project in that plus Django; while everyone else is doing old school work with PHP and possibly a templating system, plus either JavaScript or lower level JS libraries, I was lazy. I hacked together a simple model with Django and exposed it via a RESTlike API using Django REST Framework. I put together user interface in Interface Builder, linked it to NSArrayControllers and linked array controllers to simple wrapper objects around Ratatosk (an Objective-J framework for accessing RESTlike APIs). It worked on day one; my mockups were screenshots, my static HTML was a functional app, my database design was the Python code for creating Django models. Not to mention 90% based on a tutorial I found, and more than compliant with requirements for the class. By far easiest web stuff I did, and I really recommend any Objective-C developer that has to write a web application to look into Cappuccino and Ratatosk. It's only suitable for full-blown desktop-like web apps, and not for embedding into existing pages. But if you need a beautiful and complex web app, this is something you should look at. And if you'll be writing WebUIKit, why not base it on Objective-J and Cappuccino's Foundation library? :-) Sent from my iPad On 17. 5. 2013., at 01:28, Chan Maxthon xcvi...@me.com wrote: Well that thing never compiled for me, using trunk libobjc2 and trunk llvm/clang on my server, let alone I have portability in mind (Written under OS X, it is required to build on Linux as well, using trunk libobjc2, trunk llvm/clang and full Objective-C ARC.). And the reason I spawned this project is not only make a server, but also make using it easier. WebUIKit mimics iOS UIKit in behavior, very closely. (hence the namesake) To the extent that I will even create a way to write pages with embedded WebUIKit objects just like xibs. 发自我的 iPad 在 2013-5-17，6:25，Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf lars.sonchocky-helld...@hamburg.de 写道： Am 16.05.2013 um 21:50 schrieb Maxthon Chan: Well it turned out that my darned project is forced into using CoreFoundation (I need CFRunLoop to manage some BSD sockets' lifetime, as it is a portable HTTP server written in Objective-C.) If I recalled right, the first HTTP stack is written in Objective-C, on a NeXT box. I have some web development experienced with ASP.net (as my current website homepage is written in C# hosted on a Linux server using Mono) while the web development suite for Objective-C, an equally powerful language as C#, is pretty much dead. I analysed and discovered that in order to get the most out of ASP.net, Microsoft written their IIS in .net (version 7 up, I have a copy of Windows Server 2012 as a secondary OS on my MacBook Pro and the IIS 8 shipped with it is pretty much all .net). This lead me to think: can I write an equally powerful HTTP server in an equally powerful language, Objective-C, given its significance in the history of World Wide Web. And since the Objective-C language have improved vastly over decades, can I implement something similar to ASP.net, hosted on this server which is itself written in Objective-C? Have you ever heard of WebObjects? WebObjects was started by NeXT in 1995 and is an object oriented web framework originally written in ObjC (up to version 4.5) but nowadays in Java (up to version 5.4.3) While still in use at Apple internally (for the iTunes Store for instance) the last public release was in 2008 and it has been deprecated by Apple. Never the less it is still one of the most advanced web frameworks out there. Nowadays it is still in use in several companies (like the one I work for) and has been extended by a community driven effort (Project WOnder). And now the best part: There is an free software clone of WebObjects 4.5 available. It is called GNUstepWeb. Get it here: http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstepWeb http://svn.gna.org/svn/gnustep/libs/gsweb/trunk/ The documentation is still available at Apple: http://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/#documentation/LegacyTechnologies/WebObjects/WebObjects_4.5/webobjects.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40006775 cheers, Lars ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list
Re: Talks about HTTP server (Was: Re: Function move request.)
On 18 May 2013, at 18:06, Chan Maxthon xcvi...@me.com wrote: Well the work on this server is progressing fast. I finished its HTTP protocol stack, using a library called GCDAsyncSocket (a public domain software) but sadly it depends on Apple's Security.framework and CFSocket. Can any of your guys go check it out a little and maybe port it to GNUstep using GSSocket and direct access to libssl? Please don't cross-post to gnustep-dev and etoile-discuss. It is highly unlikely that something will be on-topic for both. This thread is off-topic for both lists. David -- This email complies with ISO 3103 ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Talks about HTTP server (Was: Re: Function move request.)
This have a clearly different aim. Despite starting this server is as simple as a call -[CGIServer start] but it is intended to be used as independent server. 发自我的 iPad 在 2013-5-17，13:52，Richard Frith-Macdonald richardfrithmacdon...@gmail.com 写道： On 16 May 2013, at 20:50, Maxthon Chan xcvi...@me.com wrote: Well it turned out that my darned project is forced into using CoreFoundation (I need CFRunLoop to manage some BSD sockets' lifetime, as it is a portable HTTP server written in Objective-C.) If I recalled right, the first HTTP stack is written in Objective-C, on a NeXT box. I have some web development experienced with ASP.net (as my current website homepage is written in C# hosted on a Linux server using Mono) while the web development suite for Objective-C, an equally powerful language as C#, is pretty much dead. I analysed and discovered that in order to get the most out of ASP.net, Microsoft written their IIS in .net (version 7 up, I have a copy of Windows Server 2012 as a secondary OS on my MacBook Pro and the IIS 8 shipped with it is pretty much all .net). This lead me to think: can I write an equally powerful HTTP server in an equally powerful language, Objective-C, given its significance in the history of World Wide Web. And since the Objective-C language have improved vastly over decades, can I implement something similar to ASP.net, hosted on this server which is itself written in Objective-C? I have some previous experience writing a HTTP server in both Objective-C and Visual Basic .net (sibling of C#, essentially the same language expressed in another flavor), but either (for Objective-C) a library I used or (for Visual Basic .net) a lack of progress in Mono's vbmc compiler prevented them from being ported. Now I am starting over, implementing this server again, following more tightly as how Microsoft did to their IIS, but using direct access to Berkeley sockets and native features of either Apple's Foundation or GNUstep. And this server is designed to serve WebUIKit, my ASP.net clone in Objective-C best, just like what IIS did. (If you have ever ported an ASP.net from IIS to Apache/Mono stack you know the pains.) What's more, the nature of Objective-C even allows me to wrap modules from other UNIX-based HTTP servers (like Apache's) into my design, without losing any compatibility. That is a bonus comparing to IIS (which did it over P/Invoke, which is in no way portable), seamless compatibility. (We all know how bundles work, and NDISWrapper is a good example in wrapping programs from one platform to another.) However, this project is too big for my to finish myself. I hope any of you can come and help. This project license is yet to be decided (temporarily licensed under 2-clause BSD, subject to later change) If you are interested, send me an issue on GitHub, https://github.com/xcvista/ohttpd2 or reply to this email, please. If you teams want it, I can sign the related documents. You might be interested in WebServer ... written in Objective-C entirely using gnustep-base (you can find it in the developer libraries in gnustep svn). This is what I use, but it's aim is somewhat different ... it's supposed to be a web server embedded into applications, primarily so that those applications can handle incoming web service requests. ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Talks about HTTP server (Was: Re: Function move request.)
I recently tried GNUstepWeb and it worked for me on Debian. I think I used everything from trunk. Regarding WebUIKit, don't forget about Objective-J language and Cappuccino framework. You convert xibs into cibs and load them directly. I'm writing a university project in that plus Django; while everyone else is doing old school work with PHP and possibly a templating system, plus either JavaScript or lower level JS libraries, I was lazy. I hacked together a simple model with Django and exposed it via a RESTlike API using Django REST Framework. I put together user interface in Interface Builder, linked it to NSArrayControllers and linked array controllers to simple wrapper objects around Ratatosk (an Objective-J framework for accessing RESTlike APIs). It worked on day one; my mockups were screenshots, my static HTML was a functional app, my database design was the Python code for creating Django models. Not to mention 90% based on a tutorial I found, and more than compliant with requirements for the class. By far easiest web stuff I did, and I really recommend any Objective-C developer that has to write a web application to look into Cappuccino and Ratatosk. It's only suitable for full-blown desktop-like web apps, and not for embedding into existing pages. But if you need a beautiful and complex web app, this is something you should look at. And if you'll be writing WebUIKit, why not base it on Objective-J and Cappuccino's Foundation library? :-) Sent from my iPad On 17. 5. 2013., at 01:28, Chan Maxthon xcvi...@me.com wrote: Well that thing never compiled for me, using trunk libobjc2 and trunk llvm/clang on my server, let alone I have portability in mind (Written under OS X, it is required to build on Linux as well, using trunk libobjc2, trunk llvm/clang and full Objective-C ARC.). And the reason I spawned this project is not only make a server, but also make using it easier. WebUIKit mimics iOS UIKit in behavior, very closely. (hence the namesake) To the extent that I will even create a way to write pages with embedded WebUIKit objects just like xibs. 发自我的 iPad 在 2013-5-17，6:25，Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf lars.sonchocky-helld...@hamburg.de 写道： Am 16.05.2013 um 21:50 schrieb Maxthon Chan: Well it turned out that my darned project is forced into using CoreFoundation (I need CFRunLoop to manage some BSD sockets' lifetime, as it is a portable HTTP server written in Objective-C.) If I recalled right, the first HTTP stack is written in Objective-C, on a NeXT box. I have some web development experienced with ASP.net (as my current website homepage is written in C# hosted on a Linux server using Mono) while the web development suite for Objective-C, an equally powerful language as C#, is pretty much dead. I analysed and discovered that in order to get the most out of ASP.net, Microsoft written their IIS in .net (version 7 up, I have a copy of Windows Server 2012 as a secondary OS on my MacBook Pro and the IIS 8 shipped with it is pretty much all .net). This lead me to think: can I write an equally powerful HTTP server in an equally powerful language, Objective-C, given its significance in the history of World Wide Web. And since the Objective-C language have improved vastly over decades, can I implement something similar to ASP.net, hosted on this server which is itself written in Objective-C? Have you ever heard of WebObjects? WebObjects was started by NeXT in 1995 and is an object oriented web framework originally written in ObjC (up to version 4.5) but nowadays in Java (up to version 5.4.3) While still in use at Apple internally (for the iTunes Store for instance) the last public release was in 2008 and it has been deprecated by Apple. Never the less it is still one of the most advanced web frameworks out there. Nowadays it is still in use in several companies (like the one I work for) and has been extended by a community driven effort (Project WOnder). And now the best part: There is an free software clone of WebObjects 4.5 available. It is called GNUstepWeb. Get it here: http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstepWeb http://svn.gna.org/svn/gnustep/libs/gsweb/trunk/ The documentation is still available at Apple: http://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/#documentation/LegacyTechnologies/WebObjects/WebObjects_4.5/webobjects.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40006775 cheers, Lars ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Talks about HTTP server (Was: Re: Function move request.)
Well it turned out that my darned project is forced into using CoreFoundation (I need CFRunLoop to manage some BSD sockets' lifetime, as it is a portable HTTP server written in Objective-C.) If I recalled right, the first HTTP stack is written in Objective-C, on a NeXT box. I have some web development experienced with ASP.net (as my current website homepage is written in C# hosted on a Linux server using Mono) while the web development suite for Objective-C, an equally powerful language as C#, is pretty much dead. I analysed and discovered that in order to get the most out of ASP.net, Microsoft written their IIS in .net (version 7 up, I have a copy of Windows Server 2012 as a secondary OS on my MacBook Pro and the IIS 8 shipped with it is pretty much all .net). This lead me to think: can I write an equally powerful HTTP server in an equally powerful language, Objective-C, given its significance in the history of World Wide Web. And since the Objective-C language have improved vastly over decades, can I implement something similar to ASP.net, hosted on this server which is itself written in Objective-C? I have some previous experience writing a HTTP server in both Objective-C and Visual Basic .net (sibling of C#, essentially the same language expressed in another flavor), but either (for Objective-C) a library I used or (for Visual Basic .net) a lack of progress in Mono's vbmc compiler prevented them from being ported. Now I am starting over, implementing this server again, following more tightly as how Microsoft did to their IIS, but using direct access to Berkeley sockets and native features of either Apple's Foundation or GNUstep. And this server is designed to serve WebUIKit, my ASP.net clone in Objective-C best, just like what IIS did. (If you have ever ported an ASP.net from IIS to Apache/Mono stack you know the pains.) What's more, the nature of Objective-C even allows me to wrap modules from other UNIX-based HTTP servers (like Apache's) into my design, without losing any compatibility. That is a bonus comparing to IIS (which did it over P/Invoke, which is in no way portable), seamless compatibility. (We all know how bundles work, and NDISWrapper is a good example in wrapping programs from one platform to another.) However, this project is too big for my to finish myself. I hope any of you can come and help. This project license is yet to be decided (temporarily licensed under 2-clause BSD, subject to later change) If you are interested, send me an issue on GitHub, https://github.com/xcvista/ohttpd2 or reply to this email, please. If you teams want it, I can sign the related documents. 在 2013-5-17，上午3:30，Luboš Doležel lu...@dolezel.info 写道： On 05/16/2013 08:26 PM, Maxthon Chan wrote: Well Apple documented CFRetain and CFRelease as replacements of retain/release methods on NSObject which is prohibited with ARC, and from an incident I discovered that: 1) objc_retain and objc_release does exist on Apple's libobjc2, but are private API that is not allowed to be used in App Store apps; 2) CFRetain and CFRelease calls Apple's objc_retain and objc_release internally. 3) By linking to Foundation on OS X, CoreFoundation is also included as Foundation is linked to CoreFoundation. 2) Of course. For objects that are not detected to be valid CF objects. Such detection would then have to be moved into Base, which doesn't sound sane. My code have zero intention to use CoreFoundation and it is not linked against (at least not by a -framework CoreFoundation), hence I will not use CoreBase in the port. This is why I am asking if those two functions can be moved. Linking with Foundation on OS X means linking with CoreFoundation, as you noted above in 3). Hence I don't see a problem in making this link explicit with GNUstep. After all, you *are* calling CF functions! Apple built Foundation on top of CoreFoundation, thanks to Carbon. GNUstep started fresh and built Base directly on top of libc (and friends), leaving CoreBase out and awkward. That's not true. Apple's Foundation is not built on top of CF. They are intertwined for bridging reasons, but the codebase is separate. The bridging goes both ways. Meaning: * CF object: - C calls are handled by CF - ObjC calls are handled by CF too * Foundation object: - ObjC calls are handhled by Foundation - C calls are handled by Foundation too If you are concerned about CoreBase, try implement it in Objective-C and that will make the moved CFRetain and CFRelease useable. Actually I think we can safely ditch current CoreBase implementation and start fresh implementing it using Objective-C on top of Base, wrapping Objective-C methods into C functions. CoreBase contains features that cannot be nicely implemented on top of Base's classes. The best way forward IMO is for me to complete toll-free bridging and contribute that to GNUstep. Hopefully in July/August. There isn't
Re: Talks about HTTP server (Was: Re: Function move request.)
Am 16.05.2013 um 21:50 schrieb Maxthon Chan: Well it turned out that my darned project is forced into using CoreFoundation (I need CFRunLoop to manage some BSD sockets' lifetime, as it is a portable HTTP server written in Objective-C.) If I recalled right, the first HTTP stack is written in Objective-C, on a NeXT box. I have some web development experienced with ASP.net (as my current website homepage is written in C# hosted on a Linux server using Mono) while the web development suite for Objective-C, an equally powerful language as C#, is pretty much dead. I analysed and discovered that in order to get the most out of ASP.net, Microsoft written their IIS in .net (version 7 up, I have a copy of Windows Server 2012 as a secondary OS on my MacBook Pro and the IIS 8 shipped with it is pretty much all .net). This lead me to think: can I write an equally powerful HTTP server in an equally powerful language, Objective-C, given its significance in the history of World Wide Web. And since the Objective-C language have improved vastly over decades, can I implement something similar to ASP.net, hosted on this server which is itself written in Objective-C? Have you ever heard of WebObjects? WebObjects was started by NeXT in 1995 and is an object oriented web framework originally written in ObjC (up to version 4.5) but nowadays in Java (up to version 5.4.3) While still in use at Apple internally (for the iTunes Store for instance) the last public release was in 2008 and it has been deprecated by Apple. Never the less it is still one of the most advanced web frameworks out there. Nowadays it is still in use in several companies (like the one I work for) and has been extended by a community driven effort (Project WOnder). And now the best part: There is an free software clone of WebObjects 4.5 available. It is called GNUstepWeb. Get it here: http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstepWeb http://svn.gna.org/svn/gnustep/libs/gsweb/trunk/ The documentation is still available at Apple: http://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/#documentation/LegacyTechnologies/WebObjects/WebObjects_4.5/webobjects.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40006775 cheers, Lars ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: Talks about HTTP server (Was: Re: Function move request.)
Well that thing never compiled for me, using trunk libobjc2 and trunk llvm/clang on my server, let alone I have portability in mind (Written under OS X, it is required to build on Linux as well, using trunk libobjc2, trunk llvm/clang and full Objective-C ARC.). And the reason I spawned this project is not only make a server, but also make using it easier. WebUIKit mimics iOS UIKit in behavior, very closely. (hence the namesake) To the extent that I will even create a way to write pages with embedded WebUIKit objects just like xibs. 发自我的 iPad 在 2013-5-17，6:25，Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf lars.sonchocky-helld...@hamburg.de 写道： Am 16.05.2013 um 21:50 schrieb Maxthon Chan: Well it turned out that my darned project is forced into using CoreFoundation (I need CFRunLoop to manage some BSD sockets' lifetime, as it is a portable HTTP server written in Objective-C.) If I recalled right, the first HTTP stack is written in Objective-C, on a NeXT box. I have some web development experienced with ASP.net (as my current website homepage is written in C# hosted on a Linux server using Mono) while the web development suite for Objective-C, an equally powerful language as C#, is pretty much dead. I analysed and discovered that in order to get the most out of ASP.net, Microsoft written their IIS in .net (version 7 up, I have a copy of Windows Server 2012 as a secondary OS on my MacBook Pro and the IIS 8 shipped with it is pretty much all .net). This lead me to think: can I write an equally powerful HTTP server in an equally powerful language, Objective-C, given its significance in the history of World Wide Web. And since the Objective-C language have improved vastly over decades, can I implement something similar to ASP.net, hosted on this server which is itself written in Objective-C? Have you ever heard of WebObjects? WebObjects was started by NeXT in 1995 and is an object oriented web framework originally written in ObjC (up to version 4.5) but nowadays in Java (up to version 5.4.3) While still in use at Apple internally (for the iTunes Store for instance) the last public release was in 2008 and it has been deprecated by Apple. Never the less it is still one of the most advanced web frameworks out there. Nowadays it is still in use in several companies (like the one I work for) and has been extended by a community driven effort (Project WOnder). And now the best part: There is an free software clone of WebObjects 4.5 available. It is called GNUstepWeb. Get it here: http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstepWeb http://svn.gna.org/svn/gnustep/libs/gsweb/trunk/ The documentation is still available at Apple: http://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/#documentation/LegacyTechnologies/WebObjects/WebObjects_4.5/webobjects.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40006775 cheers, Lars ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
Re: [Etoile-discuss] Talks about HTTP server (Was: Re: Function move request.)
Older web frameworks are based on a different model of HTML generation than you see in modern web applications, which make heavy use of XMLHttpRequest and JavaScript on the client to dynamically construct the DOM, rather than generating it on the server. I've been playing a bit with Node.js and Nginx lately and I have to say I really like the philosophy behind these systems. A single-threaded model has its limitations however, and Objective-C has a few features that could really shine for a modern Node-like application server using asynchronous blocks and libdispatch. Serving up HTML from a web app doesn't interest me in particular, but I am interested in what you are doing. The WebSockets spec has been finalized and it is well-supported on modern web browsers and mobile devices. I had a look at porting SocketRocket (https://github.com/square/SocketRocket) to GNUStep and/or Etoile, but I didn't want to deal with porting all the CF dependencies, so I decided to use Node.js instead. If anyone is interested in these sorts of features, I would be happy to help work on them. A full HTTP server is a very complex piece of software, but the SocketRocket code base is small. I think an Objective-C application server sitting behind an Nginx proxy would be ideal for many projects, and the scope is much smaller than supporting the full HTTP specification. Steve On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Chan Maxthon xcvi...@me.com wrote: Well that thing never compiled for me, using trunk libobjc2 and trunk llvm/clang on my server, let alone I have portability in mind (Written under OS X, it is required to build on Linux as well, using trunk libobjc2, trunk llvm/clang and full Objective-C ARC.). And the reason I spawned this project is not only make a server, but also make using it easier. WebUIKit mimics iOS UIKit in behavior, very closely. (hence the namesake) To the extent that I will even create a way to write pages with embedded WebUIKit objects just like xibs. 发自我的 iPad 在 2013-5-17，6:25，Lars Sonchocky-Helldorf lars.sonchocky-helld...@hamburg.de 写道： Am 16.05.2013 um 21:50 schrieb Maxthon Chan: Well it turned out that my darned project is forced into using CoreFoundation (I need CFRunLoop to manage some BSD sockets' lifetime, as it is a portable HTTP server written in Objective-C.) If I recalled right, the first HTTP stack is written in Objective-C, on a NeXT box. I have some web development experienced with ASP.net (as my current website homepage is written in C# hosted on a Linux server using Mono) while the web development suite for Objective-C, an equally powerful language as C#, is pretty much dead. I analysed and discovered that in order to get the most out of ASP.net, Microsoft written their IIS in .net (version 7 up, I have a copy of Windows Server 2012 as a secondary OS on my MacBook Pro and the IIS 8 shipped with it is pretty much all .net). This lead me to think: can I write an equally powerful HTTP server in an equally powerful language, Objective-C, given its significance in the history of World Wide Web. And since the Objective-C language have improved vastly over decades, can I implement something similar to ASP.net, hosted on this server which is itself written in Objective-C? Have you ever heard of WebObjects? WebObjects was started by NeXT in 1995 and is an object oriented web framework originally written in ObjC (up to version 4.5) but nowadays in Java (up to version 5.4.3) While still in use at Apple internally (for the iTunes Store for instance) the last public release was in 2008 and it has been deprecated by Apple. Never the less it is still one of the most advanced web frameworks out there. Nowadays it is still in use in several companies (like the one I work for) and has been extended by a community driven effort (Project WOnder). And now the best part: There is an free software clone of WebObjects 4.5 available. It is called GNUstepWeb. Get it here: http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstepWeb http://svn.gna.org/svn/gnustep/libs/gsweb/trunk/ The documentation is still available at Apple: http://developer.apple.com/legacy/library/#documentation/LegacyTechnologies/WebObjects/WebObjects_4.5/webobjects.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40006775 cheers, Lars ___ Etoile-discuss mailing list etoile-disc...@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/etoile-discuss ___ Gnustep-dev mailing list Gnustep-dev@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gnustep-dev
