Re: [Goanet] Latin Church in India: Another myth of Portuguese first?

2002-08-27 Thread Jorge/Livia de Abreu Noronha

I must thank Prof. Teotonio R. de Souza for the valuable inputs he has given
in his post of August 26. I'll come to this point a little later.

First of all, however, may I be permitted to state that what I wrote earlier
was by no means intended to be or represent another myth of Portuguese
first. It reflected my genuine desire not to let pass in silence a date
which I consider important for the history of Goa - August 22 - but in the
process I acknowledge having committed the mistake of saying that the Mass
celebrated on the Angediva island on August 22, 1500 was THE FIRST
LATIN-RITE CATHOLIC MASS ON INDIAN (AND ASIAN) SOIL, instead of saying that
it was THE FIRST LATIN-RITE CATHOLIC MASS IN THE TERRITOTY THAT IS NOW THE
STATE OF GOA.

I had already come to this conclusion a day before Dr. de Souza's post. In
fact, on the 25th I said the following in a private post to a goanet member
who contacted me:

It is not a hundred percent certain that the first ever Catholic
Latin-rite Mass in Goa, in India and in the whole East was the one which
was celebrated by the Fanciscans at Angediva on August 22, 1500. In what is
now Goa, yes, definitely. But, as regards India and the whole East, it is
most probably not true because it is known that:

(a) A certain French Franciscan priest by the name of Jordan Catalani de
Severac found Christians (whether Catholics it is not clear) in the
region of Thane (north of Mumbai) and northwards and even a church
dedicated to St. Thomas at a place named Sapora (in or near Gujarat) around
1321 A.D.;

(b) Pope John XXII, by his bull Venerabili Fratri Jordano of August 21,
1329 created a Catholic latin-rite diocese based in Quilon (in today's
Kerala) but with jurisdiction apparently throughout the western coast of
India and appointed Fr. Jordan Catalani de Severac its first Bishop;

(c) Bishop Jordan was stoned to death at Thane by the Muslims in or around
1336, whereupon the See of Quilon remained vacant for centuries and it is
not known how many churches there were in the vast territory of that
diocese, their locations, and whether there were priests to perform the
religious duties - Holy Mass, baptisms, matrimony, burial services, etc.


Dr.Teotonio R. de Souza has now given us more information and even indicated
two books as reference sources for those who may wish to deepen their
acquaintance with the first Latin Church in India. This is indeed  a very
important service he has rendered at least to me and, as said at the start
of this post, I am grateful to him.

Jorge de Abreu Noronha

- Original Message -
From: Teotonio R. de Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 5:31 PM
Subject: [Goanet] Latin Church in India: Another myth of Portuguese first?


«YESTERDAY, AUGUST 22, 2002 WAS THUS THE DAY OF THE 502nd ANNIVERSARY OF THE
FIRST LATIN-RITE CATHOLIC MASS ON INDIAN (AND ASIAN) SOIL.» (Jorge de Abreu
Noronha)

With reference to the above info that appeared on Goanet a couple of days
ago, I wish to draw attention to some developments in European Church
history of the 13th and 14th centuries that brought Latin Church to the East
as a result of the actitivities of the Franciscan and Dominican Orders a
couple of centuries before the arrival of the Portuguese on the scene. The
Papacy took this opportunity to establish diplomatic links with the great
Khan (Mongol) as a strategy of crusades to win ally on the rear.  The
archdiocese of Khanbaliq was established on this occasion. John de Monte
Corvino, Jordan Catalani de Severac, Odoric Pordenone, John of Marignoli
from Florence are the best known missionary figures in this venture.  They
passed through India and established missionary outposts in India. Jordan
was a Dominican and Frenchman from Severac. Pope of Avignon named him Latin
Bishop of Quilon (Episcopus Columbensis). In his travel correspondence
published as Mirabilia Descripta he mentions small Christian communities
on the Northwest coast of India, and refers to 10,000 Catholics and
appreciates the quality of their faith and also to difficulties they faced
under the Muslim rulers. Jordan visited South India and mentions about
quarrels between the Christians of St. Thomas and the Jews. But it is from
John of Marignoli that we have more details about the Latin Church of St.
George at Quilon where he spent nearly a year and half. He celebrated the
Easter of 1348 there.
The rise of Timur and the advance of Islam in the East, as well as the
problems of schism in the Western Church put an end to the missionary
efforts of the Latin church in the East during this period.

Those needing  more info about the First Latin Church in India (Asia) could
consult:
A.M. Mundadan, History of Christianity in India, Vol. 1 ( Bangalore, 1989)

or Christianity in India: A History in Ecumenical Perspective ed. by H.C.
Perumalil, C.M.I. and E.R. Hambye, S.J. (Allepey, 1972),




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[Goanet] Latin Church in India: Another myth of Portuguese first?

2002-08-26 Thread Teotonio R. de Souza

«YESTERDAY, AUGUST 22, 2002 WAS THUS THE DAY OF THE 502nd ANNIVERSARY OF THE
FIRST LATIN-RITE CATHOLIC MASS ON INDIAN (AND ASIAN) SOIL.» (Jorge de Abreu
Noronha)

With reference to the above info that appeared on Goanet a couple of days
ago, I wish to draw attention to some developments in European Church
history of the 13th and 14th centuries that brought Latin Church to the East
as a result of the actitivities of the Franciscan and Dominican Orders a
couple of centuries before the arrival of the Portuguese on the scene. The
Papacy took this opportunity to establish diplomatic links with the great
Khan (Mongol) as a strategy of crusades to win ally on the rear.  The
archdiocese of Khanbaliq was established on this occasion. John de Monte
Corvino, Jordan Catalani de Severac, Odoric Pordenone, John of Marignoli
from Florence are the best known missionary figures in this venture.  They
passed through India and established missionary outposts in India. Jordan
was a Dominican and Frenchman from Severac. Pope of Avignon named him Latin
Bishop of Quilon (Episcopus Columbensis). In his travel correspondence
published as Mirabilia Descripta he mentions small Christian communities
on the Northwest coast of India, and refers to 10,000 Catholics and
appreciates the quality of their faith and also to difficulties they faced
under the Muslim rulers. Jordan visited South India and mentions about
quarrels between the Christians of St. Thomas and the Jews. But it is from
John of Marignoli that we have more details about the Latin Church of St.
George at Quilon where he spent nearly a year and half. He celebrated the
Easter of 1348 there.
The rise of Timur and the advance of Islam in the East, as well as the
problems of schism in the Western Church put an end to the missionary
efforts of the Latin church in the East during this period.

Those needing  more info about the First Latin Church in India (Asia) could
consult:
A.M. Mundadan, History of Christianity in India, Vol. 1 ( Bangalore, 1989)

or Christianity in India: A History in Ecumenical Perspective ed. by H.C.
Perumalil, C.M.I. and E.R. Hambye, S.J. (Allepey, 1972),

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