Re: [Goanet] Re: Re: Fred's bluff
--- Valmiki Faleiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone has at last put some of the larger issues in perspective. And eloquently! Excellent analysis, Fred. Mario suggests: I would encourage Cecil Pinto and Fred Noronha to consider running for political office in Goa. How about it? How about asking V.M. de Malar to run? How about Ethel DaCosta? There is no problem in Goa that a few intelligent and honest politicians would not be able to solve. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: %(user_optionsurl)s This email sent to %(user_address)s
Re: Re: [Goanet] Re: Re: Fred's bluff
Yes, my dear Senhor Bernado, I would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven. You are perfectly entitled to your bliss, about the 3rd world rut. How's Macau now under the 2nd world? Just remember, even Rip van W. woke up a wee bit late. The day you do, you will want to reverse migrate! Rgds, Valmiki On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 Bernado Colaco wrote : Yes you prefer to live in a 3rd world rut with no Passage out except for the Portuguese citizenship? BC - Original Message From: Valmiki Faleiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Frederick Noronha(FN) [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sent: Friday, 31 March, 2006 9:50:39 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Re: Re: Fred's bluff Someone has at last put some of the larger issues in perspective. And eloquently! Some of us may not like the way India chased out Portugal from Goa in 1961 (like how a lower Army rank was demeaningly told to accept surrender from a higher-ranked Portuguese!) But it's time we realize the ground reality and move on. The futile debate -- except for academic purposes -- about Timoja in 1510 and India in 1961 must stop. And those who still entertain doubts about the *motherland* need to take a second -- perhaps closer -- look at the geographical map of India, for that matter of South East Asia. Excellent analysis, Fred. -VF _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: %(user_optionsurl)s This email sent to %(user_address)s
Re: [Goanet] Re: Re: Fred's bluff
Yes you prefer to live in a 3rd world rut with no Passage out except for the Portuguese citizenship? BC - Original Message From: Valmiki Faleiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Frederick Noronha(FN) [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sent: Friday, 31 March, 2006 9:50:39 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Re: Re: Fred's bluff Someone has at last put some of the larger issues in perspective. And eloquently! Some of us may not like the way India chased out Portugal from Goa in 1961 (like how a lower Army rank was demeaningly told to accept surrender from a higher-ranked Portuguese!) But it's time we realize the ground reality and move on. The futile debate -- except for academic purposes -- about Timoja in 1510 and India in 1961 must stop. And those who still entertain doubts about the *motherland* need to take a second -- perhaps closer -- look at the geographical map of India, for that matter of South East Asia. Excellent analysis, Fred. -VF _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: %(user_optionsurl)s This email sent to %(user_address)s
Re: [Goanet] Re: Re: Fred's bluff
Someone has at last put some of the larger issues in perspective. And eloquently! Some of us may not like the way India chased out Portugal from Goa in 1961 (like how a lower Army rank was demeaningly told to accept surrender from a higher-ranked Portuguese!) But it's time we realize the ground reality and move on. The futile debate -- except for academic purposes -- about Timoja in 1510 and India in 1961 must stop. And those who still entertain doubts about the *motherland* need to take a second -- perhaps closer -- look at the geographical map of India, for that matter of South East Asia. Excellent analysis, Fred. -VF On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 Frederick Noronha(FN) wrote : Goanetters like Miguel Braganza, Soter D'Souza and myself have opted to stay on in Goa, and have no regrets for that. There are many more; even though Goa's Catholic society at the early 21st century is once again showing signs of getting seized by a we-are-getting-finished paranoia which took so many abroad in the 'sixties. With a made-in-Goa education, many have gone ahead to do well for themselves across the globe. And you thought that Ashank Desai didn't study at the GEC-Farmagudi or that Romulus Pereira had no connection with Loyola's Margao? While we cannot afford to get complacent, surely let's not get obsessed with the negativism and we're-under-seige mentality that can lead to a self-fulfilling kind of societal paralysis.) In the 'sixties, the business community of Vasco da Gama came out with a petition against the Navy taking up too much land in the area. My own view is that in today's world the enemies of any country are its own dissatisfied population and a malfunctioning economy, not threats from beyond borders. In this context, my view too is that India, like a lot of other 'developing' and 'developed' countries, spends too much money on its military. All I'm saying is, let's give up this obsession with 1961. Goa's problems are largely generated and aggravated by tensions *within* Goan society. The issue is simply this: does a system benefit a larger or smaller section of the population? How does the current system benefit the people of the region? The questions we need to ask is: Is this sustainable over time? Are new injustices being built within the system? How are old injustices being addressed? Is our environment paying a heavy price? What is our vision for the future? Does our society have checks and balances against politicians or industry running amok and bartering the future for short-term selfish gain? ... Just a few thoughts... FN _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: %(user_optionsurl)s This email sent to %(user_address)s
[Goanet] Re: Re: Fred's bluff
Forwarded Message From: Frederick Noronha (FN) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@goanet.org Subject: Re: Re: Fred's bluff Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 02:28:43 +0530 Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueiredo at yahoo.com.au wrote: I am indeed guilty of changing the suject line (and that too inappropriately), but that was because I was addressing your PS. If that caused grief to you by any unintended insinuations, I truly apologise. I neither Not at all, Gabriel. I just commented on that to draw attention to some who have made a fine art out of midway switching subjectlines. I do appreciate your sincere debate and genuine way of putting across issues you honestly believe in, while we all go about debating our differing perspectives. simply draw your attention that there are more than just the Indian Supreme Court who do recognise that Goa was indeed invaded. What you say is true. I was taking up one, very narrow issue, mainly to challenge the trend of debating complex issues by raising an emotive misleading shorthand-argument. For instance, Goans-were-never-consulted-in-1961 or you-know-who-brought-corruption-into-Goa or, in this case, it-was-the-Supreme-Court-of-India-that-said-India-was-invaded. My submission is that such emotive arguments try to push the argument to one side, without even giving the chance to appreciate the subtle nuances and complexities involved. Although we cannot [do] much about the invasion (as it is a fait acompli), one has to call a spade a spade. The This isn't true or logical. If the situation is indeed atrocious, then we *have* to do something about it. Nothing is a fait accompli. My point is that the end of European colonialism in Asia and Africa in the 20th century was a development that actually benefitted far more people than the few it adversely affected. Those who take recourse to the we cannot do much about it argument are simply hiding from the view that they have very little support for their point of view which, in effect, is one about protecting priviledges of a few. While saying this, let me also concede that Asian and African post-colonial societies are still very complex places, with a number of unsorted problems. Relations between different sections of the population can sometimes be tough. Corruption (as the critics of our afflicted societies never cease to point out, even if they got a hugely subsidised education at the cost of this country ... and corruption comes in different forms like Swiss bank accounts, or the colonial appropriation of Third World resources) is a big concern here. Illiteracy and poverty among large sections of the population are still unvanquished enemies. Giving different regions, classes, and other groupings a fair share of the benefits of 'development' is an issue still to be sorted out All this, of course, doesn't mean that Portuguese colonialism was a preferrable option, or even that Goa would have done better if it had to be an independent country. Presumably lead by its own corrupt, very local, authentic son-of-the-soil politicians (whose character flaws ranging from an acute lack of vision to unimaginable selfishness are more than visible, regardless of which party they are affiliated to). To shift to a personal note: on December 19, 1961 my mother was a patient at a maternity ward in Brazil. Your home is free, an Italian doctor told her, in a part of the world where it was still December 18. My parents later came back to Goa of the 'sixties, kerosene lamps, underdevelopment and limited opportunities ... with a lot of optimism. They obviously had a tough time adjusting. (Their idea of Goa were 20 years old, and had changed substantially meanwhile.) But like many the vast majority of the migrants out of Bardez, they were part of a Catholic non-elite that had to scour the world for jobs ... even if they didn't quite eat grass in Goa. Today, many of my contemporaries (specially, though not only, kids who returned from Africa in the 'seventies) prefer to migrate overseas. The recently-discovered love for the Portuguese passport has more to do with the entry of Lisbon into the EU, and the sudden decline of the rupee which makes it even more luring to migrate. But they do it with a choice. They now too don't have to eat grass -- a query that has come up repeatedly on Goanet. They're in Goa which is transforming fast; but given our blinkered perspectives and negative approaches, we can see only the negatives here. What's worse, our negativism disallows us from spending time to see how our societies can better cope with the future, and not miss the train yet again. Goanetters like Miguel Braganza, Soter D'Souza and myself have opted to stay on in Goa, and have no regrets for that. There are many more; even though Goa's Catholic society at the early 21st century is once again showing signs of
