[Goanet]Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Hi Rene, My life in India was in Goa and Bombay. I never knew (or made the attempt to know) the caste of my friends, acquaintances, neighbors, classmates, party-goers, girlfriends, dance-partners, co-workers, colleagues etc. This applies if they are/ were Goans, Maharastrians, Mysoreans, Gujeratis or from other states in India. So I am dumb-founded by the extent of current caste discrimination reported on GoaNet on an everyday basis in Goa (and Bombay). I have a feeling, like Goans often tend to do, there is some overstatement and empty / pious emotionalism. :=)) And others are likely reporting of what used to occur about a century ago among Goans. As regards your request for practical steps to eliminate caste, (and class) here are some suggestions. Invite the lower caste along with the upper caste to your parties and celebrations. Make it a point to attend their social and religious functions. Publicly encourage and support them (if you know 'them') for public office be it in our little communities or politically in our regions. If you live in America it is time for 'liberals' to praise and support Pres Bush for his appointments of many Blacks and Hispanics to powerful, high and visible Government posts in the USA. If a Goan has broken-through any 'glass ceiling' he/she should be awarded a WGD recognition. Regards, GL Rene Barreto: Writing or talking does not help eliminate CASTE, action does. Do WE have any suggestions as to how this CASTE problem can be addressed? If so please share them with us on this Goan Forum. LETS begin TODAY.
Re: [Goanet] Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Frederick Noronha(FN) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a Helecar, Santosh will be seen as belonging to a certain caste (Saraswat Brahmin, in this case), whether he so defines himself or not. There's little he can do about it, short of disguising/dropping his family name which might be both undesirable or still unhelpful. Frederick, I really appreciate your comments. But in my specific case you are entirely mistaken. My current surname, Helekar, does not reveal my caste at all. You see my family has one of those double surnames. My birth record in Portuguese shows both of those names. One of them reveals my caste. I no longer use that surname. It has been deliberately omitted in all but two official documents that I now have in my possession. That is one small way in which I renounced my caste, long before Goanet came into existence and Cipriano Fernandes and Mario Goveia became its enlightened subscribers. Maybe Dr Helecar will enlighten us about this. Though we know he doesn't define himself in religious terms, my point is that he well could, if he wanted to. Frederick, I hope you won't mind if I did what you ask above, another day. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet]Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Rene, The problem of caste belief and practice in Catholic Goa is formidable to eradicate. Many questions asked on Goanet will help to clarify the issue and should lead to eventual action. Patience, my friend, is needed but there is hope on the horizon. However, I do not agree with you, when reading in between the lines of your posts that, hard questions on caste are detrimental to promoting more solidarity among the Goans. I seek real in-depth solidarity, not the surface gloss of 'solidarity' underpinned by caste but which essentially segregates a society. Cornel
[Goanet]Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Goemkars ! YES ! I believe that Tim's suggestion is a Great one , but how do we address this * EDUCATION * ? I hope that those who have been strongly making their points on the evils of Caste system ..in our ..GOAN SOCIETY ! on the various GOAN Forums . will participate in this ** EDUCATION ** process irrespective of they being MUSLIMS ...HINDUS or CATHOLICS .. ..or people who have no religion and all ! ... I wait to seeor.will we continue seeing more of these these unfruitful posts..? on our GOANET ! Lets not create more PROBLEMS ...but lets .. ..find SOLUTIONS. I felt that we were very cruel in attacking Santosh and Sachin for being * born * - into a caste system they had no chice to born into. Did they chose to be born in the caste they were born ? I would like to apologize ..on behalf of those who agree with ..ME. SORRY Santosh and Sachin WHY curse the God who made them ? Is it not what we are doing ...? Yes TIM , we ALL need to be EDUCATED so that we may once again work TOGETHER , there are many amongst us who would like to work together to bring our GOANS TOGETHER but we have a FEW who by their actions ..are working against US ..GOANS. This is all I can say , it's a pity , but this is the TRUTH. rene - Original Message - From: Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 3:50 PM Subject: [Goanet]RE: Questions about Hindu caste? rene barreto [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Do WE have any suggestions as to how this CASTE problem can be addressed ? Answer: E D U C A T I O N Tim de Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA
Re: [Goanet] Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Santosh, Instead of verbally fighting with Cip, who is probably trying to get under your skin, and since you obviously disagree with the caste system, why don't you simply stick with denouncing it among Hindus, as I have denounced it among Catholics? The end. Let those who defend the caste system then continue the dialog, and continue to live by it. The rest of us can consign it to the dustbin of history where it rightly belongs. --- Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Cip Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It appears that Dr. Santosh Helekar is a Hindu not by conviction but by birth, inheriting so-called Saraswat Brahmin caste, which is very close to his heart. Now, either Cipriano does not know what he is talking about or he is deliberately trying to insult me by calling me a Saraswat Brahmin, and by making an outrageous charge that my so-called Saraswat Brahmin caste is very close to my heart. The truth is Cipriano knows nothing about me and my attitude towards my caste. He has also not bothered to find out before making baseless accusations. However, he believes in his inherited so-called Saraswat Brahmin caste and he is holding tight to it. Not content with using a casteist slur against me, he continues to lie about me. Does he deliberately misunderstand me when I state that I do not hold the convictions of the religion of my ancestors? I challenge him to show us how he knows that I believe in my caste. Now, as he is the most intelligent liberal Hindu (by birth only) Goanetter why is he reluctant to denounce publicly his so-called inherited Saraswat Brahmin caste on Goanet? What a joke! Does Cipriano just want me to say that I denounce my so-called inherited Saraswat Brahmin caste on Goanet? Well, Folks on Goanet, here I go. I denounce my so-called inherited saraswat brahmin caste on Goanet. Or is he confusing denounce with renounce? If he is then would he believe me if I told him that I have already renounced my caste and the practices of casteism in my own life many years ago? That is exactly what I have done. That is why calling me a saraswat brahmin or any such name is an insult to me. I know, this post and any number of others like it would make no difference to Cipriano as regards his attitude towards me. In all likelihood he would continue to believe what he wants to believe. After all, ironically, those who wrongly accuse others of discrimination and prejudice by definition suffer from prejudice themselves. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Cip Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It appears that Dr. Santosh Helekar is a Hindu not by conviction but by birth, inheriting so-called Saraswat Brahmin caste, which is very close to his heart. Now, either Cipriano does not know what he is talking about or he is deliberately trying to insult me by calling me a Saraswat Brahmin, and by making an outrageous charge that my so-called Saraswat Brahmin caste is very close to my heart. The truth is Cipriano knows nothing about me and my attitude towards my caste. He has also not bothered to find out before making baseless accusations. However, he believes in his inherited so-called Saraswat Brahmin caste and he is holding tight to it. Not content with using a casteist slur against me, he continues to lie about me. Does he deliberately misunderstand me when I state that I do not hold the convictions of the religion of my ancestors? I challenge him to show us how he knows that I believe in my caste. Now, as he is the most intelligent liberal Hindu (by birth only) Goanetter why is he reluctant to denounce publicly his so-called inherited Saraswat Brahmin caste on Goanet? What a joke! Does Cipriano just want me to say that I denounce my so-called inherited Saraswat Brahmin caste on Goanet? Well, Folks on Goanet, here I go. I denounce my so-called inherited saraswat brahmin caste on Goanet. Or is he confusing denounce with renounce? If he is then would he believe me if I told him that I have already renounced my caste and the practices of casteism in my own life many years ago? That is exactly what I have done. That is why calling me a saraswat brahmin or any such name is an insult to me. I know, this post and any number of others like it would make no difference to Cipriano as regards his attitude towards me. In all likelihood he would continue to believe what he wants to believe. After all, ironically, those who wrongly accuse others of discrimination and prejudice by definition suffer from prejudice themselves. Cheers, Santosh
RE: [Goanet] Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Cip Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone has to start for others to follow. In case, if you two cannot do so then please let Goanetters know what stops you two to do so? I am not sure what Cipriano is saying here. Is he claiming that I have not publicly denounced the caste system? Well, most people who have read my posts over the years know quite well that I have done more than that on numerous occasions. Several months ago I had even posted a summary of recent findings on how new genetics data confirm that casteism is in fact the earliest form of color-based racism. Heck, I have even denounced fundamentalist Hinduism, itself, and all kinds of Hindu superstitious beliefs, every chance I have gotten. I have also denounced fundamentalist Christianity and Islam. Merwyn is right. I am not a Hindu by conviction - only by birth. If you don't believe me, please go through the Goanet archives and find out for yourself. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## The following is my short attempt to answer the questions raised by Gilbert on this thread. My answers are not meant to offend him or anybody else, except perhaps a few unduly sensitive neoconservatives. --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why does the 'below eluded' hypocrisy exist or need to exist? Referring to hypocrisy in general, the real scientific answer to this question is not known at present. What are the factors that hold back 'intelligent liberal' Hindus from putting into practice their convictions and principles? First, I don't think liberals are necessarily intelligent. And being intelligent has no bearing on whether someone wants to get rid of the casteist mentality or not. I think one overarching factor is lack of courage. Another is fear of ostracism. The two are undoubtedly related. If the 'intelligent liberal' Hindus do not provide the leadership with actions / deeds, then who will? This appears to be a rhetorical question. But I am tempted to say that, based on the heavy selling that is going on these days on the question of leadership, this might be a good test case for finding out whether a dumb conservative is really a better leader, instead. The final question from the above! If not now ... then when? Again, not taking this as a rhetorical question, I think progress here will be in small increments. The Goan experience, in particular, has shown that the significance of caste-based differences and practices has progressively declined with each new generation. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet]Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Hi Sachin, Thanks for your polite response. In the past my sincere questions on Hinduism or Hindus have been met with silence - being neglect! :=)) So I appreciate your thoughts. I have wondered: What would happen if an intelligent liberal upper caste Hindu (and family) walked into a temple with a lower caste (and his family)? What would happen if a lower caste Hindu (and his family) took a liberal, intelligent upper caste Hindu (and family) into their temple and then had a meal with them? The situation reminds me of the time Frank Sinatra performed at Las Vegas. At that time Blacks were not allowed to enter through the front door, sit at the bar or have a room in the same hotel. Frank Sinatra, when he learnt about this practice, refused to perform if his co-star Sammy Davis Jr. (Black entertainer) was not given all the privileges that Frank enjoyed. That started a new era in Las Vegas and elsewhere in America. Just one person's action and leadership! Good wishes. GL Sachin Phadte: The questions that Gilbert Lawrence raises, namely: 1. Why does the 'below eluded' hypocrisy exist or need to exist? 2. What are the factors that hold back 'intelligent liberal' Hindus from putting into practice their convictions and principles? 3. If the 'intelligent liberal' Hindus do not provide the leadership with actions / deeds, then who will? 4. The final question from the above! If not now ... then when? have been something that has been bothering me for some time. It seems to me that there is a lack of social leadership in our society, and that is why many of the problems (like caste) are allowed to fester. I am afraid I do not have the necessary solutions myself. Of course, this response of mine may appear to be a way of getting away from doing what little I can do. What I think is not happening is that while the intelligent liberal Hindu write lots of articles, etc., on the problem, they do not seem to involve themselves at the grass-root level. And that is why I asked Santosh whether his statement about the intelligent liberal Hindu not backing the public denunciations with private actions. smacks of hypocrisy. Unless or until the intelligent liberal Hindu makes the necessary sincere efforts, they will allow the politicians to use the caste system for their own self-serving ends.
[Goanet]Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## GL responds: Can I display my ignorance about the caste system in the Hindu community that either of the two individuals below can respond or any one else: Can the lower caste Hindus go to the same temple as the upper caste Hindus? If not can we have examples of the different temples in Goa that cater to the different Hindu castes of Goa? Thanks, GL Sachin Phadte: Would Santosh agree with me if I say that Indian liberalism has had more than enough opportunity to eliminate the caste system? Would he agree with me that if his statement about not backing the public denunciations with private actions smacks of hypocrisy?
