[Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades
In response to this :< Why, in this modern age, should we have the "haves" and "have nots", with only a few people belonging to to the communidades and getting "johnos" or dividends, because of some ancestral right ? We should have private property belonging to individuals and public property belonging to everyone. In my humble opinion communidade property should be considered to be public property for the good of all the citizens and not just the Gaunkars. Savio Rodrigues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Response: I totally disagree with the above statements. Our ancestors worked hard and maintained the communidades property for their decendents and not for every public person. If after the death of a person his private property belongs to his decendents why should the property of a group go to public. JC's reponse: Very well said Savio. The writer (to whom you responded) is probably unaware that the Goan Communidades existed for over a 1000 years. He is also (perhaps) unaware that the Goan Communidades were dealt a heavy blow by Gen Candeth (Please read Claude Alvares et al in Rice & Curry) If one takes his position that the Haves and Have Nots must share all and I agree WHY not open the doors and windows of our Goa Houses to the have Nots? What?! Houses are private property? Really? and what about the Communidades ? jc http://www.colaco.net JC is a member of whatever is left (after the thiefing) of the Communidade of Carambolim _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
[Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades
From: "Nasci Caldeira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> < It is true that Communidades existed for over a thousand years, or whatever; But this is no reason why this system should not change! It smacks of 'Commune' living and also of 'feudalism'. Nobody likes feudalism and nobody lives in communes anymore; the world is now in the 21st century. Let individual property be private and let all 'commune' property be public either state or village public. Of course it will not be 'shared' but for public use and with a public purpose; and if so decided then it can be sold or whatever according to common wishes and not only of the Gaonkars. after all, all Gaonkars are not really resident anymore, the style/ system of living is no more! So the old 'Commune property' should be rightly declared like 'Evacuee' property, and become public.> == Dear Nasci, Intriguing proposition. 1. Are you saying that when Gen Candeth struck a body-blow to the Communidade System, the owners of the Communidade were living on it as a Commune? 2. Perhaps I could suggest that we look carefully at the history (even if it is at the past 200 years) of the Communidade lands, How the "Zhonn" came about, What "Zhonn" meant, How "Zhonn" was calculated..and WHAT the Portuguese Govt negotiated with the Communidade land owners and WHY.and IF negotiated 'contracts' can legally be broken by unilateral action. 3. As far as I know, India follows the same common + civil law systems as Britain. I believe that Australia, NZ, most of Canada and the US and the Caribbean follow the same legal systems. Goa is in the same position as Quebec, California, New Mexico, Texas and possibly Louisiana - where the European (Roman Law) systems overlap with the British common + civil law systems. Under which system would you rename these Private properties as Evacuee properties? 4. I believe that the Indian Constitution has special Acts dealing with Evacuee properties. Please vide the 1950 Act - ammended in the early 1960s. It might be worth one's while to look at recent Indian Supreme Court rulings on Evacuee property with special reference to Kashmir. How do Goans fit in it . 5. What you are suggesting is a Marxist (Cuba style) take over of private property. Should they stop at the land only - or even go to houses? The Bandodkar-Shashikala Kakodkar combine organised "land to the Mundcar" phenomenon. Why did they spare the mines ... and NOT give the ownership of the mines to the miners? There was a clever little provision put in place BEFORE Bandit-ker initiated the process of the Mundcar take over of private property. Think about it IF the Agricultural Land should go to the Tiller .Why not Mines to the Miners? BTW: Has anyone worked out to WHOM the land really belonged before the present Mine-Owners came and prospected for minerals .kept on good terms with the Portuguese, USED Portuguese law and became OWNERS of the land. DID they BUY that land on which they mined and continue to mine? Today with the state of the "Laws" ...if you rent out a Room in your house ... in which you are living ...OR even take pity on a homeless person and offer him shelter for a day ...How long do you think it will take to get him out? The Banditos knew the legal difficulties with the Communidade land ... so they "converted" it step by step. I shall stop here ...and wait for your comment. jc _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
RE: [Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades
Jose, It is true that Communidades existed for over a thousand years, or whatever; But this is no reason why this system should not change! It smacks of 'Commune' living and also of 'feudalism'. Nobody likes feudalism and nobody lives in communes anymore; the world is now in the 21st century. Let individual property be private and let all 'commune' property be public either state or village public. Of course it will not be 'shared' but for public use and with a public purpose; and if so decided then it can be sold or whatever according to common wishes and not only of the Gaonkars. after all, all Gaonkars are not really resident anymore, the style/ system of living is no more! So the old 'Commune property' should be rightly declared like 'Evacuee' property, and become public. This is my humble opinion and modern thought input to this issue. We have to give up our old ways and modernise. These days, there are no Clans / Communes anymore; even families are disappearing under the impact of development and modern thinking. The Hindu unduvided family, has also disappeared by and large; I think its prevalent only for tax purposes; the tax office should outlaw this; certainly appears like a loophole for tax fraud.. From: "jose colaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:05:00 + In response to this :< Why, in this modern age, should we have the "haves" and "have nots", with only a few people belonging to to the communidades and getting "johnos" or dividends, because of some ancestral right ? We should have private property belonging to individuals and public property belonging to everyone. In my humble opinion communidade property should be considered to be public property for the good of all the citizens and not just the Gaunkars. Savio Rodrigues <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Response: I totally disagree with the above statements. Our ancestors worked hard and maintained the communidades property for their decendents and not for every public person. If after the death of a person his private property belongs to his decendents why should the property of a group go to public. JC's reponse: Very well said Savio. The writer (to whom you responded) is probably unaware that the Goan Communidades existed for over a 1000 years. If one takes his position that the Haves and Have Nots must share all and I agree WHY not open the doors and windows of our Goa Houses to the have Nots? What?! Houses are private property? Really? and what about the Communidades ? jc
RE: [Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades
Hi Jose, Look, I'm not going to address your long list of questions individually but briefly and in general. I am not competent to address issues of local Law, national Law and or International Law or issues, as a historian, either. What I did try to propose is from a 'common man's point of view and with regards to modern life and democratic processes, towards 'Equality. Liberty and Justice'. As for 'evacuee' property law, I am not so sure of it; I mentioned the same as a person had suggested this to me some years ago. Is it not true that Communidade property is Community property, owned by the members of the Community/ Communidade?. Is it not true that these members also own real private property, in their private family names and in the same jurisdiction? Is it not true that some or all of these members, at some time or other, whenever they held 'office' in the Communidade administration, they misappropiated these Communidade lands and merged it as their own? Is it not true that some of these people are being tried in courts as of today, even? This may not be relevent to the issue in question, but it shows, that there is 'Private land' and 'Community land' in all the villages constituted as Communidades. In the begining there were only Gaonkares, and among these gaokares there were many (Clans) vangors; then came thru marriage, settlement and migration, the 'Moradores', and then the newer Moradores. How this system helps the good life in the present day villages, I do not understand; This system has only created division and discrimination among the villagers taken as a whole. There has been hegemony and downright blocking of pathways and road access etc. and wrongly based stoppage of legitimate construction of the moradores and other new comers, by the Gaokares lobby; Yes the Panchayat Raj is in force now; but don't u see that the evil forces prevailing as a result of the Communidades system has spilt over into panchayat politics and state politics. As I see it the system is doing no good to anyone except the Gaocares who are getting the Zhon and continue their hegemony. All the residents like voters, should have the same benefits, and rights. That is why I feel that the system of Communidades be disbanded and the Communidade (common) property, (and not individual property), be handed over to the state. This will be the first step towards the end of feudalism, at village level! This is my logic and my prayer for the development of Goa into a super modern City State, wherin all are considered equal. From: "jose colaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:46:00 + From: "Nasci Caldeira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> < It is true that Communidades existed for over a thousand years, or whatever; But this is no reason why this system should not change! It smacks of 'Commune' living and also of 'feudalism'. Nobody likes feudalism and nobody lives in communes anymore; the world is now in the 21st century. Let individual property be private and let all 'commune' property be public either state or village public. Of course it will not be 'shared' but for public use and with a public purpose; and if so decided then it can be sold or whatever according to common wishes and not only of the Gaonkars. after all, all Gaonkars are not really resident anymore, the style/ system of living is no more! So the old 'Commune property' should be rightly declared like 'Evacuee' property, and become public.> Nasci Caldeira. == Dear Nasci, Intriguing proposition. 1. Are you saying that when Gen Candeth struck a body-blow to the Communidade System, the owners of the Communidade were living on it as a Commune? 2. Perhaps I could suggest that we look carefully at the history (even if it is at the past 200 years) of the Communidade lands, How the "Zhonn" came about, What "Zhonn" meant, How "Zhonn" was calculated..and WHAT the Portuguese Govt negotiated with the Communidade land owners and WHY.and IF negotiated 'contracts' can legally be broken by unilateral action. 3. As far as I know, India follows the same common + civil law systems as Britain. I believe that Australia, NZ, most of Canada and the US and the Caribbean follow the same legal systems. Goa is in the same position as Quebec, California, New Mexico, Texas and possibly Louisiana - where the European (Roman Law) systems overlap with the British common + civil law systems. I shall stop here ...and wait for your comment. jc
[Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades - final
From: "Nasci Caldeira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Nasci1: < I am not competent to address issues of local Law, national Law and or International Law or issues, as a historian, either.> JC 1: Fair enough == Nasci2: with regards to modern life and democratic processes, towards 'Equality. Liberty and Justice'. As for 'evacuee' property law, I am not so sure of it; I mentioned the same as a person had suggested this to me some years ago> JC2: Justice can ONLY ne attained through the observance of Obligations, Contracts and Laws == Nasci3: that there is 'Private land' and 'Community land' in all the villages constituted as Communidades> JC4: Community Land is NOT State Land. It is like a Condominium complex owned by a community of owners == Nasci4: evil forces prevailing as a result of the Communidades system has spilt over into panchayat politics and state politics> JC4: Please explain == Nasci 5: and the Communidade (common) property, (and not individual property), be handed over to the state> JC5: Your "feeling" is based on an inaccurate assumption that Communidade = Common. And what do you mean "handed over to the state" ? As in Cuba? The next thing you will say is that Companies with shareholders should be handed over to (nationalised by ) the state. == good wishes jc _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
RE: [Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades - final
Hi Jose, I will be as brief as possible; I too think this discussion should be finalised with this my little submission. From: "jose colaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades - final Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:29:06 + == JC2: Justice can ONLY be attained through the observance of Obligations, Contracts and Laws Nasci: Yes i believe in the observance of laws, contracts and obligations, totally. However it does not mean that, hundreds or thousands of years later, these traditions, laws and obligations cannot be changed peacefully, and democratically, for the benefit of all the present day residents and constituents of a village or town. I am only demanding and trying to pursue change; not a cummunist like take over. I do not and have never liked Communists and Commie Govts. === Nasci3: that there is 'Private land' and 'Community land' in all the villages constituted as Communidades> JC4: Community Land is NOT State Land. It is like a Condominium complex owned by a community of owners Nasci replies: Inthose old days, from what I know; there was no state land; only Community or Communidade land; hence it can be safely derived that this community land was like common land; in fact like modern state land, for the benefit of all; and in those days 'all' meant only the gauncares; it is no longer the same now; 'all' now means so much more; This happens to be my logic. = Nasci4: evil forces prevailing as a result of the Communidades system has spilt over into panchayat politics and state politics> JC4: Please explain Nasci explains: The Goan villagers are divided into gaunkares and moradores; and these two groups have effectively become vote banks for their respective candidates. All that happens is that they let each groups man, be the sarpanch alternatively; then when it comes to doing something concrete for village developement; there is no agreement, in most cases; u see there is no unity, even when they might be supposedly claiming allegiance to the same party; And this differentiation goes on into Church administration and the celebration of feasts etc. Effectively 'apartheid' in seating, celebration of Church feasts etc. Very un Christian; The cause of this is none other then "the institution of Communidades"! It stands to reason that the cause has to be removed for a good follow on effect! Same problem 'cause of the caste system. Of course; easier said than done; Let the Goan / Indian genius come on top of it; lest we all perish in time, with Chinese superiority! The Chinese Marxist party is effectively following Capitalism; whilst we are following feudal practices and casteism, that is racism. === Nasci 5: and the Communidade (common) property, (and not individual property), be handed over to the state> JC5: Your "feeling" is based on an inaccurate assumption that Communidade = Common. And what do you mean "handed over to the state" ? As in Cuba? The next thing you will say is that Companies with shareholders should be handed over to (nationalised by ) the state. Nasci explains: Rather hand it over to the state to which all belong then to keep it in the hands of a few to dominate. The State is not foreign; it is US. Like I have said earlier; the companies/ communidades should be disbanded by law; not Cuban or Communist style; and the law has to be equal to all; Whose shares? You see, the orgiinal owners of the land are the gawdas and the kunbis; then the settlers came and 'split the spoils' into private land and shares for common holdings among themselves; You see: share the loot! And this can go on and on. Is it not better than, to resolve this situation by law, to the advantage of all present day residents? I hope u will agree. Cheers, and good wishes to you too, Jose. No hard feelings. Bye now. ( definitely Final installment) Nasci Caldeira Melbourne
RE: [Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades - final
Nasci4: evil forces prevailing as a result of the Communidades system has spilt over into panchayat politics and state politics> JC4: Please explain From: "Nasci Caldeira" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> < The Goan villagers are divided into gaunkares and moradores; and these two groups have effectively become vote banks for their respective candidates. All that happens is that they let each groups man, be the sarpanch alternatively; then when it comes to doing something concrete for village developement; there is no agreement, in most cases; u see there is no unity, even when they might be supposedly claiming allegiance to the same party; And this differentiation goes on into Church administration and the celebration of feasts etc. Effectively 'apartheid' in seating, celebration of Church feasts etc. Very un Christian; The cause of this is none other then "the institution of Communidades"! It stands to reason that the cause has to be removed for a good follow on effect! Same problem 'cause of the caste system> Dear Nasci, When the plague hit Old Goa, the Barros, Colaco and Falcao families went to Velim. They settled there. There are now the "Moradors" or Residents of Velim. They are not the Gaumcars of Velim and rightly receive NO "Zhonn" from the Communidade of Velim. However, I must have missed something. I have not yet seen the voting for the Panchayat elections divided on the basis of who is Gaumcar and who is not. I truly must have missed something! Also, at St Francisco Xavier Church in Velim, I have not seen any differential seating for Gaumcars v Moradors. As my good neighbour in Velim Mr. Ben Antao (a Gaumcar of Velim) will attest, neither he nor I knew who was the "Morador" and who the "gaumcar" till the age of the Internet. In Velim, we visit each other's houses and celebrate feasts together. And I don't believe we care much to vote for the Panchayat elections - as all the elections produce, is another layer of crooks. That is an Indian Gorr-mental gift to Goa. Now did you just say that the Communidade System was akin in its effect to the Caste System? Really? my friend, you have NO idea of what the Caste System has done! jc _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
RE: [Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades - final
Dear Jose, Just a brief exchange of information; I am also a morador, in the village of my birth, just acroos the river Sal. My ancestry is from, and Gaoncari from Chinchinim. However I have no strong links; I am not bothered to find out who receives the Zhon on my ancesters bahalf. Also, in my vilage where I lived until migration; I used to get together with all the village people, including Gaoncares, one of whom was and is my best man/family friend. In fact I used to hold BBQ parties (first in Goa) etc for a lot of persons, friends, relatives from Dona Paula, Panjim, Porvorim, Madgaon, Benaulim etc. My home used to resound with the sound of music and friendship partying! But all that does not condone the tribal divide. However, to my surprise, I realised that these friendships in the village specially, did not run very deep, and were camouflaged to hide the real inherent differentiation; not hate, of course. When I talk of apartheid in the Church; I am talking of the Kunbis and Gawdas and those in the fishing trades and other labour intensive village work, who are not gauncares. When I was last in Goa, in Nov-Jan 2005; I was pleasantly surprised to find some of the Kunbi children, who used to befriend my kids among others, are well educated and spoke fluent English; everytime I tired to practice my Konkanni, I was lured back to English by the sheer fluency on the part of the kunbi kid. this young woman has been to Finland and lived in their Finnish Home, but yet to live in a Goan Gauncaree or higher caste home. How heinous the caste system?? That is commendable progress, limited though it may be for this woman. Whither Goa and India?? But , the Church affairs are yet the same old system, and yet to change for democratic and equality norms.The Gauncares still celebrate the main feasts and still administer and control the affairs of the Church, without any recognition or input from other residents. The only notable change in 'pews' I noticed is that the pews are now put right in front and the benches behind; perhaps trying to lure the church elite to sit and reflect closer to the altar.. The real difference I noted is that the Morador people and the working class people , no longer look up to the so called elite in the villages. They take pride in their own and have worked themselves up, to compete successfully with the old elite to become the new elite, to a great extent. Viva progress! Viva the new Goa! Nasci Caldeira Melbourne From: "jose colaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [Goanet]RE: Gaunkaries/Communidades - final Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:40:10 + Dear Nasci, However, I must have missed something. I have not yet seen the voting for the Panchayat elections divided on the basis of who is Gaumcar and who is not. I truly must have missed something! Also, at St Francisco Xavier Church in Velim, I have not seen any differential seating for Gaumcars v Moradors. As my good neighbour in Velim Mr. Ben Antao (a Gaumcar of Velim) will attest, neither he nor I knew who was the "Morador" and who the "gaumcar" till the age of the Internet. In Velim, we visit each other's houses and celebrate feasts together. And I don't believe we care much to vote for the Panchayat elections - as all the elections produce, is another layer of crooks. That is an Indian Gorr-mental gift to Goa. Now did you just say that the Communidade System was akin in its effect to the Caste System? Really? my friend, you have NO idea of what the Caste System has done! jc
