Re: [Goanet] Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Humans have evolved from mammalian ancestors. > Sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists have shown that human > nature and morality have strong evolutionary bases. I maintain that evolution does not exclude creation by God. The primal matter has been created by God. It evolves according to laws inherent in the nature. > >The brain may be organ or "seat" of mind, but it cannot function > >without the vital principle or SOUL. You answered: > Science conclusively showed more than fifty years ago that there is > no vital principle. Vitalism and dualism are both dead. We know > exactly why and how a brain functions. There is no dualism.But brain cannot explain the functions of mind. > These are not matters of faith. Your beliefs in this regard are > simply wrong. But you said that "no hard evidence can ever contradict faith". Yet what is more "miraculous" (in a lighter vein!) is that you are contradicting yourself!... Ivo ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet] Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >But the human nature reflects God's creation. Therefore, morality is > >God's Will. > >Not true. Humans have evolved from mammalian ancestors. > Sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists have shown that human > nature and morality have strong evolutionary bases. Evolution does not exclude creation by God. The second law of thermodynamics contradicts evolution. > >The brain may be organ or "seat" of mind, but it cannot function > >without the vital principle or SOUL. > Science conclusively showed more than fifty years ago that there is > no vital principle. Vitalism and dualism are both dead. We know > exactly why and how a brain functions. There is no spooky stuff in > it. > These are not matters of faith. Your beliefs in this regard are > simply wrong. But you said that "no hard evidence can ever contradict faith". Yet what is more "miraculous" (in a lighter vein!) is that you are contradicting yourself!... Ivo ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
From: "cornel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thank you for the opportunity that you gave me to affirm my conviction about God and religion. Still I am having problems to write on this topic in this Website because of the error of scientism or positivism. We have to reject it. Ivo - Original Message - From: "cornel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa > Ivo, > Many thanks. > I will reflect on the points you made. > Cornel > - Original Message - > From: "Ivo Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 6:50 PM > Subject: Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa > > > > From: "cornel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > As a humanist, I put man/woman at the centre of our > > > existence...tell me how you have arrived at the seeming certainty and > > > faith which you project in your God fearing position? > > Man is the crown of God's creation. God is the Creator and our loving, > > compassionate Father. I am not in "God-fearing position". > > > > Hasn't religion > > > contributed significantly to endless unnecessary animosity among > peoples > > > of the world? > > > > Religion proclaims only love. There cannot be hatred in the name of > > religion. Love, forgive, be mature... > > > > Clearly, we need to respect each person's right to a view about human > > > existence etc but surely we humans have advanced well beyond so much > utter > > > rubbish as in the Bible upon which you seem to depend so heavily. > > > > On the one hand, you say that we need to respect each person's right to a > > view about human existence. But on the other hand, you call the biblical > > view, which is considered by peoples from the world as God's Word, > > "rubbish"... How do you reconcile these two contradictory statements of > your > > message? Do you consider all those who rely upon Bible as fools? > > If your personal reflection leads you to live without God, source of life, > > please go ahead... I would like to know what sustains you in your struggle > > for survival, for a better existence. Love of family? of a superior cause? > > of God (called by any other name)? > > Ivo > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 6:52 PM > > Subject: Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa > > > > > > > Dear Ivo, > > > I am utterly puzzled by the fervour of your traditional beliefs about > the > > > existence of God etc. As a humanist, I put man/woman at the centre of > our > > > existence and I have arrived at this through much reading and much > > searching > > > of my intellect and conscience. > > > Please can you tell me how you have arrived at the seeming certainty > and > > > faith which you project in your God fearing position? Hasn't religion > > > contributed significantly to endless unnecessary animosity among > peoples > > > > > of the world? > > > > > > Clearly, we need to respect each person's right to a view about human > > > existence etc but surely we humans have advanced well beyond so much > utter > > > rubbish as in the Bible upon which you seem to depend so heavily. > > > Yours, > > > In good faith, > > > Cornel > > > > > > > > ## > > # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # > > # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # > > # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # > > # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # > > ## > > > > > > ## > # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # > # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # > # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # > # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # > ## ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
Ivo, Many thanks. I will reflect on the points you made. Cornel - Original Message - From: "Ivo Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa > From: "cornel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > As a humanist, I put man/woman at the centre of our > > existence...tell me how you have arrived at the seeming certainty and > > faith which you project in your God fearing position? > Man is the crown of God's creation. God is the Creator and our loving, > compassionate Father. I am not in "God-fearing position". > > Hasn't religion > > contributed significantly to endless unnecessary animosity among peoples > > of the world? > > Religion proclaims only love. There cannot be hatred in the name of > religion. Love, forgive, be mature... > > Clearly, we need to respect each person's right to a view about human > > existence etc but surely we humans have advanced well beyond so much utter > > rubbish as in the Bible upon which you seem to depend so heavily. > > On the one hand, you say that we need to respect each person's right to a > view about human existence. But on the other hand, you call the biblical > view, which is considered by peoples from the world as God's Word, > "rubbish"... How do you reconcile these two contradictory statements of your > message? Do you consider all those who rely upon Bible as fools? > If your personal reflection leads you to live without God, source of life, > please go ahead... I would like to know what sustains you in your struggle > for survival, for a better existence. Love of family? of a superior cause? > of God (called by any other name)? > Ivo > > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 6:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa > > > > Dear Ivo, > > I am utterly puzzled by the fervour of your traditional beliefs about the > > existence of God etc. As a humanist, I put man/woman at the centre of our > > existence and I have arrived at this through much reading and much > searching > > of my intellect and conscience. > > Please can you tell me how you have arrived at the seeming certainty and > > faith which you project in your God fearing position? Hasn't religion > > contributed significantly to endless unnecessary animosity among peoples > > > of the world? > > > > Clearly, we need to respect each person's right to a view about human > > existence etc but surely we humans have advanced well beyond so much utter > > rubbish as in the Bible upon which you seem to depend so heavily. > > Yours, > > In good faith, > > Cornel > > > > ## > # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # > # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # > # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # > # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # > ## > ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
From: "cornel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As a humanist, I put man/woman at the centre of our > existence...tell me how you have arrived at the seeming certainty and > faith which you project in your God fearing position? Man is the crown of God's creation. God is the Creator and our loving, compassionate Father. I am not in "God-fearing position". Hasn't religion > contributed significantly to endless unnecessary animosity among peoples > of the world? Religion proclaims only love. There cannot be hatred in the name of religion. Love, forgive, be mature... Clearly, we need to respect each person's right to a view about human > existence etc but surely we humans have advanced well beyond so much utter > rubbish as in the Bible upon which you seem to depend so heavily. On the one hand, you say that we need to respect each person's right to a view about human existence. But on the other hand, you call the biblical view, which is considered by peoples from the world as God's Word, "rubbish"... How do you reconcile these two contradictory statements of your message? Do you consider all those who rely upon Bible as fools? If your personal reflection leads you to live without God, source of life, please go ahead... I would like to know what sustains you in your struggle for survival, for a better existence. Love of family? of a superior cause? of God (called by any other name)? Ivo Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa > Dear Ivo, > I am utterly puzzled by the fervour of your traditional beliefs about the > existence of God etc. As a humanist, I put man/woman at the centre of our > existence and I have arrived at this through much reading and much searching > of my intellect and conscience. > Please can you tell me how you have arrived at the seeming certainty and > faith which you project in your God fearing position? Hasn't religion > contributed significantly to endless unnecessary animosity among peoples > of the world? > > Clearly, we need to respect each person's right to a view about human > existence etc but surely we humans have advanced well beyond so much utter > rubbish as in the Bible upon which you seem to depend so heavily. > Yours, > In good faith, > Cornel ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Fw: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
> From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Some scientists are believers themselves. It is not surprising that > > they are confused. There have been scientists among the Christian monks, who have taken science to great heights. They have not been confused neither in science nor in their Christian faith. There is no conflict between science and Christian faith. Ivo ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet] Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Humans have evolved from mammalian ancestors. > Sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists have shown that human > nature and morality have strong evolutionary bases. Evolution does not contradict creation of the primal matter by God. Morality is rooted in the nature and heart of Man. Evolution of morality may reflect also the concrete culture, but basically human morality is identical. It is rooted on love. Ivo - Original Message - From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:44 AM Subject: [Goanet] Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa > In a message dated 1/12/2004 7:43:06 PM Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > >But the human nature reflects God's creation. Therefore, morality is > >God's Will. > > > > Not true. Humans have evolved from mammalian ancestors. > Sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists have shown that human > nature and morality have strong evolutionary bases. > > > > >The brain may be organ or "seat" of mind, but it cannot function > >without the vital principle or SOUL. > > > > Science conclusively showed more than fifty years ago that there is > no vital principle. Vitalism and dualism are both dead. We know > exactly why and how a brain functions. There is no spooky stuff in > it. > > These are not matters of faith. Your beliefs in this regard are > simply wrong. > > Cheers, > > Santosh > > > > ## > # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # > # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # > # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # > # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # > ## ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet] Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
--- Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The claim, backed by sound evidence, is that the > dualist idea of the > existence of an immortal soul as distinct from the > body is untenable. > Santosh, What methods does science employ to prove that a soul (whether it is distinct from the body or not) is "immortal"? What is the direct test of immortality? What do you think of the Samkhya philosophy which says that creation comes from the union of the 2 principles of Prakriti (matter) and Purusha (soul, mind)? Here matter and mind/soul are inseparable. > > > > The scientific method can certainly elucidate the > physical basis of emotions and of the workings of the mind in general Brain science has shown that the philosophical/metaphysical construct of the soul is superfluous. Simply stated, it has shown that > without a functioning brain there is no mind. Is there a difference between "mind" and "soul"? By simple perception, anyone can see that a functioning brain works within a living body or mass of cells. We can observe that death of living cells terminates the "mind." One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to see that. > > You are absolutely right about this. It is the > Lokayata philosophy. Yes, I looked up Carvakya: he taught that all is matter, there is no soul or afterlife, and advocated a lifestyle of sensual pleasure. He did scoff at the rituals of the brahmins and taught that they had no effect. However, so did Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta. There may be Goanetters more knowledgeable than me who would care to comment on the simiarities/dissimilarities between these Indian systems of thought and the scientific method. It seems to me that what you are saying, Santosh, is that mere faith in a Revelation or scriptures is not sufficient grounds for believing in the existence of a soul/souls or an unitary Soul. Sankaracharya, the leading exponent of Advaita, agrees with this. He logically shows the difference between the mind (the observed) and the soul (the observer. It seems to me that what he is leading to is that the duality is overcome when the sense of ego is overcome - I confess that I got this from flipping through these texts over many years, and I don't understand it all. However, it is quite different from the way the Bible teaches about God (anthropomorphic, Father image, creator) versus man (sinner, creature, individual soul). Both Buddhism and Advaita emphasize direct experience and direct perception which to me bears a similarity to the scientific method. I would welcome your opinion and of others on this. Filomena > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
Dear Ivo, I am utterly puzzled by the fervour of your traditional beliefs about the existence of God etc. As a humanist, I put man/woman at the centre of our existence and I have arrived at this through much reading and much searching of my intellect and conscience. Please can you tell me how you have arrived at the seeming certainty and faith which you project in your God fearing position? Hasn't religion contributed significantly to endless unnecessary animosity among peoples of the world? Clearly, we need to respect each person's right to a view about human existence etc but surely we humans have advanced well beyond so much utter rubbish as in the Bible upon which you seem to depend so heavily. Yours, In good faith, Cornel - Original Message - From: "Ivo Souza" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>### > > > ## > # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # > # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # > # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # > # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # > ## > ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
[Goanet] Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
In a message dated 1/12/2004 7:43:06 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >But the human nature reflects God's creation. Therefore, morality is >God's Will. > Not true. Humans have evolved from mammalian ancestors. Sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists have shown that human nature and morality have strong evolutionary bases. > >The brain may be organ or "seat" of mind, but it cannot function >without the vital principle or SOUL. > Science conclusively showed more than fifty years ago that there is no vital principle. Vitalism and dualism are both dead. We know exactly why and how a brain functions. There is no spooky stuff in it. These are not matters of faith. Your beliefs in this regard are simply wrong. Cheers, Santosh ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet] Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Simply stated, it has shown that without a functioning > brain there is no mind. The brain may be organ or "seat" of mind, but it cannot function without the vital principle or SOUL. Man is body-soul unity. That is the greatness of Man (man and woman). Ivo - Original Message - From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 5:21 AM Subject: [Goanet] Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa > Filomena wrote: > > > > >This is an amazing claim, that science has proved the non-existence > >of a soul. > > > > Filomena, > > The claim, backed by sound evidence, is that the dualist idea of the > existence of an immortal soul as distinct from the body is untenable. > > > > >I was not aware that the "scientific method" could quantify and > >prove or not prove the inner workings of mind and emotions and the > >philosophical/metaphysical construct of a soul. > > > > The scientific method can certainly elucidate the physical basis of > emotions and of the workings of the mind in general. Otherwise, I > have been wasting my time all these years. Brain science has shown > that the philosophical/metaphysical construct of the soul is > superfluous. Simply stated, it has shown that without a functioning > brain there is no mind. > > > > >Or, in terms of Advaita, a Soul or Consciousness? I hope that > >Santosh can provide the source of this latest scientific study. > > > > The original sources are too numerous to cite here. But here are some > popular books on the subject: > > 1. "The Astonishing Hypothesis" by Francis Crick > 2. "Brain-Wise" by Patricia Churchland > 3. "Consciousness" by Susan Blackmore > 4. "Consciousness Explained" by Daniel Dennett > 5. "Descartes' Error" by Antonio Damasio > 6. "Phantoms in the Brain" by V. S. Ramachandran and Sandra Blakeslee > > > > >If all is matter and only matter exists, then we must have no > >Consciousness which is one definition of "soul" in Indian philosophy. > > > > We certainly have consciousness, but it is entirely based on the > activity of matter (brain matter). That is what modern brain science > tells us. > > > > >I believe that Indian philosophy has one branch that posits that > >only matter is real. > > > > You are absolutely right about this. It is the Lokayata philosophy. > Unfortunately, the proponent of this philosophy, Charvaka, was > murdered by Brahmins in Yudisthira's court. He is the Giordano Bruno > of Hinduism. > > Cheers, > > Santosh > > > > > > ## > # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # > # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # > # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # > # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # > ## ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Religion does not hold any monopoly over moral principles. Indeed, > the need of the hour is to strip morality of its religious trappings. Religion is the way of life. It teaches us how to live. Morality is rooted in our human nature. But the human nature reflects God's creation. Therefore, morality is God's Will. For the Christians, faith and morality are based on Christian Revelation. It is the law of love, that guides the Universe. It is God who guides us. God is Love. Without God there is no meaning to the world. It is the human reason that discoverse the meaning of the world by "discovering" the Creator of the World, GOD. Civilization without God cannot be authentic and human... Ivo - Original Message - From: "Santosh Helekar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 4:35 AM Subject: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa > In a message dated 1/10/2004 10:52:15 AM Central Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > >Along with these welcome promises, science left to itself has the > >power to wipe humanity from the face of the earth. > > > > So does religion. In fact, all major world religions, and all the so- > called "spiritual" cults that they have spawned are awestruck by > apocalyptic visions. > > > > >It is in this context, religion and moral principles become > >significant for science. > > > > Religion does not hold any monopoly over moral principles. Indeed, > the need of the hour is to strip morality of its religious trappings. > > > > >Traditionally science in our country was largely married to > >religion. It was religion that provided the necessary condition and > >impetus that led to its growth. > > > > Actually, it can be argued that Indian as well as western science > predated religion. If anything, religious indoctrination aborted or > stunted the growth of science, both in India and the west. > > > > >But today many of our highly talented and successful scientists are > >forced to live in a state of tension between revolutionary new ideas > >in science and their traditional views of religion. > > > > The best way to relieve this tension is to abandon all traditional > views of religion that have flunked the tests of reason and have > become obsolete. > > > > >Many have a positivistic tendency to emphasize science and reduce > >religion to a superstition. > > > > This is by and large a good strategy, as long as you exhibit > tolerance and congeniality towards people who disagree with you, and > respect their right to believe. > > > > >All these approaches have left most scientists and believers > >confused. > > > > Some scientists are believers themselves. It is not surprising that > they are confused. > > > > >SRS has already held several meetings wherein the participants > >reflected on the religious implications of various developments in > >science. > > > > I wonder what the religious implication of the recent scientific > finding that we do not have a soul, is. How can religion survive the > realization that the body is all there is? > > > > > >SRS is a science and religion discussion group, which is comprised > >of persons of goodwill and open mind. > > > > I think this discussion group is a fantastic idea. Open-mindedness is > old hat for science. For religion, it would be something new. The > success of this group would therefore depend on the extent to which > religious exponents would be willing to be open-minded. > > > > >It seeks to collaborate with man and women who have expertise in > >various scientific and religious fields and share a deep concern and > >interest towards a thoughtful and dynamic integration of science and > >religion for a well-being of humanity, the survival of life, the > >deeper appreciation of the marvels of creation and the mystery of > >God. > > > > Science cannot appreciate the mystery of God, nor should it, because > it has progressively and successfully demystified all that was once > thought to be divine. There are also several religions that do not > appreciate any kind of God. > > > > >Some religious leaders have taken contemporary science seriously and > >have appealed to their followers to keep abreast with the advances > >in science. > > > > I have tremendous respect for such leaders. I was fortunate to meet > one such person on my recent visit to Goa. Unfortunately, such great > minds do not have many followers becaus
[Goanet] Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
Filomena wrote: > >This is an amazing claim, that science has proved the non-existence >of a soul. > Filomena, The claim, backed by sound evidence, is that the dualist idea of the existence of an immortal soul as distinct from the body is untenable. > >I was not aware that the "scientific method" could quantify and >prove or not prove the inner workings of mind and emotions and the >philosophical/metaphysical construct of a soul. > The scientific method can certainly elucidate the physical basis of emotions and of the workings of the mind in general. Otherwise, I have been wasting my time all these years. Brain science has shown that the philosophical/metaphysical construct of the soul is superfluous. Simply stated, it has shown that without a functioning brain there is no mind. > >Or, in terms of Advaita, a Soul or Consciousness? I hope that >Santosh can provide the source of this latest scientific study. > The original sources are too numerous to cite here. But here are some popular books on the subject: 1. "The Astonishing Hypothesis" by Francis Crick 2. "Brain-Wise" by Patricia Churchland 3. "Consciousness" by Susan Blackmore 4. "Consciousness Explained" by Daniel Dennett 5. "Descartes' Error" by Antonio Damasio 6. "Phantoms in the Brain" by V. S. Ramachandran and Sandra Blakeslee > >If all is matter and only matter exists, then we must have no >Consciousness which is one definition of "soul" in Indian philosophy. > We certainly have consciousness, but it is entirely based on the activity of matter (brain matter). That is what modern brain science tells us. > >I believe that Indian philosophy has one branch that posits that >only matter is real. > You are absolutely right about this. It is the Lokayata philosophy. Unfortunately, the proponent of this philosophy, Charvaka, was murdered by Brahmins in Yudisthira's court. He is the Giordano Bruno of Hinduism. Cheers, Santosh ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
Re: [Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
--- Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I wonder what the religious implication of the recent scientific finding that we do not have a soul, is. How can religion survive the realization that the body is all there is? This is an amazing claim, that science has proved the non-existence of a soul. I was not aware that the "scientific method" could quantify and prove or not prove the inner workings of mind and emotions and the philosophical/metaphysical construct of a soul. Or, in terms of Advaita, a Soul or Consciousness? I hope that Santosh can provide the source of this latest scientific study. These discussions can be mired down in definitions, incidentally. If all is matter and only matter exists, then we must have no Consciousness which is one definition of "soul" in Indian philosophy. I believe that Indian philosophy has one branch that posits that only matter is real. Filomena __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
[Goanet]Re: Science and Religion Sangam (SRS) in Goa
In a message dated 1/10/2004 10:52:15 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >Along with these welcome promises, science left to itself has the >power to wipe humanity from the face of the earth. > So does religion. In fact, all major world religions, and all the so- called "spiritual" cults that they have spawned are awestruck by apocalyptic visions. > >It is in this context, religion and moral principles become >significant for science. > Religion does not hold any monopoly over moral principles. Indeed, the need of the hour is to strip morality of its religious trappings. > >Traditionally science in our country was largely married to >religion. It was religion that provided the necessary condition and >impetus that led to its growth. > Actually, it can be argued that Indian as well as western science predated religion. If anything, religious indoctrination aborted or stunted the growth of science, both in India and the west. > >But today many of our highly talented and successful scientists are >forced to live in a state of tension between revolutionary new ideas >in science and their traditional views of religion. > The best way to relieve this tension is to abandon all traditional views of religion that have flunked the tests of reason and have become obsolete. > >Many have a positivistic tendency to emphasize science and reduce >religion to a superstition. > This is by and large a good strategy, as long as you exhibit tolerance and congeniality towards people who disagree with you, and respect their right to believe. > >All these approaches have left most scientists and believers >confused. > Some scientists are believers themselves. It is not surprising that they are confused. > >SRS has already held several meetings wherein the participants >reflected on the religious implications of various developments in >science. > I wonder what the religious implication of the recent scientific finding that we do not have a soul, is. How can religion survive the realization that the body is all there is? > >SRS is a science and religion discussion group, which is comprised >of persons of goodwill and open mind. > I think this discussion group is a fantastic idea. Open-mindedness is old hat for science. For religion, it would be something new. The success of this group would therefore depend on the extent to which religious exponents would be willing to be open-minded. > >It seeks to collaborate with man and women who have expertise in >various scientific and religious fields and share a deep concern and >interest towards a thoughtful and dynamic integration of science and >religion for a well-being of humanity, the survival of life, the >deeper appreciation of the marvels of creation and the mystery of >God. > Science cannot appreciate the mystery of God, nor should it, because it has progressively and successfully demystified all that was once thought to be divine. There are also several religions that do not appreciate any kind of God. > >Some religious leaders have taken contemporary science seriously and >have appealed to their followers to keep abreast with the advances >in science. > I have tremendous respect for such leaders. I was fortunate to meet one such person on my recent visit to Goa. Unfortunately, such great minds do not have many followers because they do not pander to people's baser instincts, and their intellectual honesty leads them to question their religious beliefs. Cheers, Santosh ## # Send submissions for Goanet to [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # PLEASE remember to stay on-topic (related to Goa), and avoid top-posts # # More details on Goanet at http://joingoanet.shorturl.com/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ##
