Re: [Goanet]RE: : airfields again & again
Gilbert M should read 'The Making and Unmasking of the Raj" by L. James. His recent statments on the Dabolim occupation are not different of what the author L. James makes of bharat (One has to read the book). B. Colaco > > > > The lane in question was signposted "No Parking - By > Order PMC" the last time I passed that way. The > fact > that it specifies "By Order PMC" indicates, at least > to me, a subtle hint that the State Govt is being > coerced by the military authorities (as also that > the > Chief Secretary has no "teeth"), as no where else in > the whole capital do I see that additional remark on > No Parking signs. > > Also, note the ostentatious manner in which a > battle-tank has been positioned in front of the > barracks at Bambolim. > > Cheers, > > Gabriel de Figueiredo. > Melbourne - Australia. > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]RE: : airfields again & again
--- jose colaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Talking about Newspapers, here is an item which > might enlighten the > democratic flame in you (and perhaps - your soul > mate Mario) > > http://www.colaco.net/1/senses.htm > The lane in question was signposted "No Parking - By Order PMC" the last time I passed that way. The fact that it specifies "By Order PMC" indicates, at least to me, a subtle hint that the State Govt is being coerced by the military authorities (as also that the Chief Secretary has no "teeth"), as no where else in the whole capital do I see that additional remark on No Parking signs. Also, note the ostentatious manner in which a battle-tank has been positioned in front of the barracks at Bambolim. Cheers, Gabriel de Figueiredo. Melbourne - Australia. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: airfields again
--- gilbert menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Jose,
> here are the answers to your very basic queries:
> 1. Your basic premise is wrong. The airport did not
> belong to the
> people of Goa pre 1961, as you have stated. It
> belonged to the
> Portuguese, as it was a Government facility.
I beg to differ, Gilbert. The airport did belong to
the people of Goa, as it was built using funds meant
for development of Goa. Part of these development
funds were the result of mining operations, the rest
came from Portugal. I understand that Goa was
semi-autonomous at the time, and most people in the
Portuguese Govt service in Goa were Goans ("Goa and
Ourselves" by Bohram Behram of Bombay). TAIP was a
civilian airline created in 1955 based at Dabolim, and
later became a sister company to TAP (today
Air-Portugal). TAIP (as also other organisations)
ceased to exist soon after Dec 1961 thanks to the
Indian military takeover.
> After independence, it
> devolved to the Govt. of india,
Independence? I thought the Indian Armed Forces
"liberated" Goa! Goa is NOT independent - it has been
absorbed into India (I won't go further).
> and technically, it now belongs to the
> people of Goa, because we belong to a democracy, and
> the Govt. is *of* the people.
State Govt, may be. But the State Govt is not the
Govt. of India, and the Govt. of India appears to care
little for the tiny state of Goa. It considers Goa as
being advanced and in little need of development,
hence the trickle of funds (to which Goans contribute
hell of a lot) that flow into Goa (an old article by
Dr. Nandkumar Kamat plus recent news).
Cheers,
Gabriel de Figueiredo.
Melbourne - Australia.
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
http://au.movies.yahoo.com
[Goanet]RE: : airfields again & again
Phillip Thomas wrote: 1. What has been the nature of the equation, the relationship, between the Navy and Goa over the decades? 2. What are the plans for building Goa into a 21st century "3700 sqkm 'city' of beautiful villages" ? And what is the Navy's contribution to that going to be at Dabolim? JC comment: Well said Prof! -- Gilbert Menezes wrote < Your basic premise is wrong. The airport did not belong to the people of Goa pre 1961, as you have stated. It belonged to the Portuguese, as it was a Government facility. After independence, it devolved to the Govt. of india, and technically, it now belongs to the people of Goa, because we belong to a democracy, and the Govt. is *of* the people.> This is the "best" spin-interpretation of democracy I have found second only to Mario's definition of democracy. Let's get this right. Goa was NOT given Independence. That action was taken WITHOUT the consultation of the people of Goa, and Gilbert has the neuronas to call it democracy? Thank you Gilbert, but even Mario makes good ..anyway Gilbert Menezes again Could you please, Gilbert, post a copy of the last Advert in the Goa Newspapers for civilian posts at Dabolim. And since you have the Knowledge (which I lack), could you please ask for data on Goan applicants and appointments. One more question - while you are at it - When you next visit the "club", please find out HOW the consession stalls are awarded. IF you find an OPEN advert for those stalls, do let us know. Unless "special" qualifications are needed to run those stalls. Talking about Newspapers, here is an item which might enlighten the democratic flame in you (and perhaps - your soul mate Mario) http://www.colaco.net/1/senses.htm till another time jc _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
[Goanet]Re: airfields again
Dear Jose, here are the answers to your very basic queries: 1. Your basic premise is wrong. The airport did not belong to the people of Goa pre 1961, as you have stated. It belonged to the Portuguese, as it was a Government facility. After independence, it devolved to the Govt. of india, and technically, it now belongs to the people of Goa, because we belong to a democracy, and the Govt. is *of* the people. 2. The cooks and stewards in the Naval base are men in uniform i.e. sailors. The Navy periodically recruits cooks and stewards into the Logistic branch of the Navy. It is an all India, equal opportunity recruitment. Unfortunately, goans never apply, and prefer the Carnival Cruise Lines where the money is bigger and faster. Theres nothing wrong with that, but what is wrong is your continued insinuation about the Navy not providing jobs for Goans. As usual, your generalisations are based on lack of knowledge of local conditions. All civilian workers in the Naval base are hired through open advertisements in the newspapers. Lastly, I would appreciate if you stop comparing me with a gentleman named Mario. Im sure he would appreciate it as well. regards,G. . > From: "jose colaco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: goanet@goanet.org > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:34:43 + > Subject: [Goanet]Dear Gabriel re: Juhu Aerodrome, Rats et al > Reply-To: goanet@goanet.org > If Dabolim was a civilian airport pre-1961 - it obviously belonged to the > people of Goa. > > So, WHEN were the people of Goa asked IF that airport could be "borrowed"? > or was a "middle of the might" a la META and Konkan Railway done with > Dabolim too? > > What benefit do Goans get from the Dabolim base? > > How many Goans are employed at the Dabolim base? (even as cooks and butlers) > > As Gilbert has the opportunity to "visit" with the hospitality at Dabolim, > he might have noticed IF any goans were employed at Dabolim (even as cooks > and butlers)
Re: [Goanet]Re: airfields
--- gilbert menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > btw,What *technical* function did you perform for > the Brazilian Navy? Procured spares for engines and allied equipment for Niteroi-class frigates, Humaitá-class subs, Sea-king and Lynx helicopters, IFF equipment etc. in the European market, and purchased repair and maintenance manuals for the foregoing. My technical knowledge came into the fore in translating Portuguese technical requirements into English technical terms, when suitable substitutes were required to be procured for obsoleted electronic spares, and to handle telex machines in a couple of emergencies when no telex operator had turned up for work (there were no fax machines in popular use until the late 1980s). Next I moved into the field of software development, developing an on-line purchasing system and an on-line accounting system to be compatible with the Brazilian federal SIAFI system on mini-computers, and before I left, set up a Netware LAN. > How many times did you step on the deck of the > carrier *Minas Gerais*? None. But read enough about it and other aircraft carriers on Janes publications when I was working there in the '80s. Cheers, Gabriel de Figueiredo. Melbourne - Australia. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Re: airfields
Gilbert, Your mails do make interesting reading, and with your naval background etc its nice to learn a few things now and then. Refering to your response to Gabriel, I had in the past gathered from the various posts on Dabolim, that the airport in question was somehow usurped off the people of Goa. And now in your post you make mention that "The facility (Juhu) doesnt even belong to the Ministry of Defence" The question here is, does Dabolim 'belong' to the Navy? In order for Dabolim airport to 'belong' to the Navy, it has to be bought from, won over or gifted off by its rightful owners. By any chance, has that ever happened, and at what price? And if it has, where does the question of the Navy leaving Dabolim arise from? Just curious! Salus Message: 9 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:34:50 +0530 From: gilbert menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: goanet@goanet.org Subject: [Goanet]Re: airfields Reply-To: goanet@goanet.org Gabriel , since you ask, the Juhu strip is longer than the deck of a carrier. But that was not the point. The suggestion from your friend Phillip was for Juhu to serve as substitute for the Navy which is operating an air station at Goa. You therefore need to look at the huge Navy infrastructure built up at Goa as well as the types of aircraft >being operated here, most of them being non aircraft carrier types. Heres some of the types. 1.Kiran jet trainer 2.Tu-142-long range maritime patrol 3.IL-38- Long Range anti sub warfare 4. Aiforce Jaguar -Maritime strike(periodically) 5. Sea Harrier V/STOL All these types need extended runaway lengths, including the Harrier >Trainer.. Besides, the Navy also operates a variety of helicopters such as the Seaking ASW, Kamov-28 ASW, Kamov-31 Air Early Warning helos, Allouettes. If you knew the basics of VTOL training, you would know that a pilot needs to be comfortable on a full length runaway, before he transitions to the very difficult VSTOL mode, used for carrier launch/recovery.. The Navy possess infrastructure to maintain , service and repair >these aircraft at Goa. The Navy obviously , also has weapons for these aircraft at Goa. Then, out of the blue, comes this nonsensical suggestion about >Juhu-- which has nothing on it. When I last saw it, it was being used as a staging point for ONGC helicopters used for servicing the oil >offshore installations of Bombay High. The facility doesnt even belong to >the Ministry Of Defence. I hope I havent gone into technicalities. btw,What *technical* function did you perform for the Brazilian >Navy? How many times did you step on the deck of the carrier *Minas >Gerais*? regards, Gilbert.
[Goanet]Re: airfields
Gabriel , since you ask, the Juhu strip is longer than the deck of a carrier. But that was not the point. The suggestion from your friend Phillip was for Juhu to serve as substitute for the Navy which is operating an air station at Goa. You therefore need to look at the huge Navy infrastructure built up at Goa as well as the types of aircraft being operated here, most of them being non aircraft carrier types. Heres some of the types. 1.Kiran jet trainer 2.Tu-142-long range maritime patrol 3.IL-38- Long Range anti sub warfare 4. Aiforce Jaguar -Maritime strike(periodically) 5. Sea Harrier V/STOL All these types need extended runaway lengths, including the Harrier Trainer.. Besides, the Navy also operates a variety of helicopters such as the Seaking ASW, Kamov-28 ASW, Kamov-31 Air Early Warning helos, Allouettes. If you knew the basics of VTOL training, you would know that a pilot needs to be comfortable on a full length runaway, before he transitions to the very difficult VSTOL mode, used for carrier launch/recovery.. The Navy possess infrastructure to maintain , service and repair these aircraft at Goa. The Navy obviously , also has weapons for these aircraft at Goa. Then, out of the blue, comes this nonsensical suggestion about Juhu-- which has nothing on it. When I last saw it, it was being used as a staging point for ONGC helicopters used for servicing the oil offshore installations of Bombay High. The facility doesnt even belong to the Ministry Of Defence. I hope I havent gone into technicalities. btw,What *technical* function did you perform for the Brazilian Navy? How many times did you step on the deck of the carrier *Minas Gerais*? regards, Gilbert. > Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:09:26 +1100 (EST) > From: Gabriel de Figueiredo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Goanet]Juhu Aerodrome > To: goanet@goanet.org > Reply-To: goanet@goanet.org > > --- Philip Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > have forwarded your > > recommendations to my friend, Admiral Arun Prakash, > > the Chief Of the Naval > > Staff, but Im worried that he may laugh so hard, > > that he may fall out of his > > chair. The old single prop Tiger Moths used to > > barely make it to the end of > > the runaway during takeoff at Juhu, and you want the > > Navy to fly fighter > > aircraft from there! wow!regards, Gilbert.> [March > > 18] > > > > I know the remark was put to Philip. But here comes a > question, dear Gilbert. Is the Juhu airstrip shorter > or longer than the runway on an aircraft carrier? > Just curious... > > P.S. I know that carriers employ steam catapults to > accelerate aircraft on take-off and arrestors to stop > them on landing for non-VTOL/STOL types, so please > don't go into these technicalities. Note also that I > worked for a technical department of the Brazilian > Navy for over 12 years before migrating to Australia. > > Cheers, > > Gabriel de Figueiredo. > Melbourne - Australia. >
[Goanet]Re: airfields
[Gabriel de Figueiredo, March 19] I am reminded of the saying "with friends like these who needs enemies!?" Maybe it can be paraphrased suitably to highlight the role of the great defenders of our shores. :)That reminds me of another phrase "sleeping with the enemy". With its Dabolim attitude the Navy can at least be accused of being a big drag on Goa's economy and society, net net.:)
Re: [Goanet]Re: airfields
--- gilbert menezes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gabriel, > > I finally get to the root of your problem. Its not > Dabolim, per se, > but the Indian Armed Forces who forcibly took Goa in > 1961 and created > a festering sore in your psyche forever. Not only me who says that - the Supreme Court of India has determined the actions of 1961 to be a conquest. Aided and abetted by you and your Navy friends. > Best of > luck man! I refuse > to move from the airport to Dabolim beach, , to > where your discussion > has shifted. My discussion has moved to the Dabolim Beach in as much as your discussion moved to the GP. I was just stating how well the Indian Navy behaves itself in Goa. More as a conqueror rather as a saviour. > I use Dabolim airport to fly in and > out to all parts of > the world, whenever I want, with no problem, and I > use Dabolim beach( > Joes shack) to have my fish and fenim. I sometimes > drink with my Navy > friends. I admire these guys who devote their lives > to the defence of > this nation. > regards, > Gilbert Menezes. Yes, you just do that. Regards, Gabriel de Figueiredo. Melbourne - Australia. Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Re: airfields
Where is the beach in Dabolime? Perhaps, the writer means Bogmalo beach below the airport. The bar's name is Joet. Eugene Correia __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
[Goanet]Re: airfields
Gabriel, I finally get to the root of your problem. Its not Dabolim, per se, but the Indian Armed Forces who forcibly took Goa in 1961 and created a festering sore in your psyche forever. Best of luck man! I refuse to move from the airport to Dabolim beach, , to where your discussion has shifted. I use Dabolim airport to fly in and out to all parts of the world, whenever I want, with no problem, and I use Dabolim beach( Joes shack) to have my fish and fenim. I sometimes drink with my Navy friends. I admire these guys who devote their lives to the defence of this nation. regards, Gilbert Menezes. > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:05:43 +1100 (EST) > From: Gabriel de Figueiredo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Goanet]Re: flying clubs > To: goanet@goanet.org > Reply-To: goanet@goanet.org > > Gilbert, > > Please read my posting carefully. > > 1. I stated that training with specific carrier-based > aircraft ought to be carried out on the carriers. > These type of aircraft are wasted on land-based > training. Sure, train the pilots on trainer aircraft > at land-based training school (I believe there are > such schools all around the country), but is Dabolim a > junior training school? > > 2. Taking your analogy, Grand Prix drivers do not > train on normal highways enforcing the authorities to > close these for X number of hours every day. They > train on special grounds, rising in level from > go-karts to F1 standard. Your comparison of GP drivers > to airpilots stands to naught as it brings precisely > to my point - the GP drivers practice on GP tracks, > therefore stands to reason that naval pilots should > train on aircraft carriers. > > Besides, the Air Force has a number of airfileds - > don't they? Why can't the navy pilots train with the > AF boys and girls? Are the navy chaps in any way > different from the AF chaps? > > 3. Re Tom Cruise, you are talking of an air base in > the deseret. Was the air base a civilian one before > it was converted to a navy / airforce one? Or was it a > purpose-built base *for* the use of the armed forces? > > 4. Re your analogy to labrador training, see 2 above. > > Incidentally, where did the navy pilots train before > Dabolim was "captured" in the conquest of 1961? Did > all of a sudden Dabolim, the "prize", became > indispensable for the Navy? > > Why is it that the Navy flexes it muscles and enforces > its rules on what was and should be a *civilian* > airport? If Dabolim has become a training station (as > you state), why is the Navy behaving like a bully boy > on the adjoining Dabolim beach preventing fisherfolk > from earning their livelihood as they had done for > ages before the Indian Navy came on the scene? Are > they any 'danger' to the trainees? > > Cheers, > > Gabriel.
