Re: [Goanet] Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- "Frederick Noronha(FN)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >As a Helecar, Santosh will be seen as belonging to a >certain caste (Saraswat Brahmin, in this case), >whether he so defines himself or not. There's little >he can do about it, short of disguising/dropping his >family name which might be both undesirable or still >unhelpful. > Frederick, I really appreciate your comments. But in my specific case you are entirely mistaken. My current surname, Helekar, does not reveal my caste at all. You see my family has one of those double surnames. My birth record in Portuguese shows both of those names. One of them reveals my caste. I no longer use that surname. It has been deliberately omitted in all but two official documents that I now have in my possession. That is one small way in which I renounced my caste, long before Goanet came into existence and Cipriano Fernandes and Mario Goveia became its enlightened subscribers. > >Maybe Dr Helecar will enlighten us about this. >Though we know he doesn't define himself in >religious terms, my point is that he well could, >if he wanted to. > Frederick, I hope you won't mind if I did what you ask above, another day. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet]Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Rene, The problem of caste belief and practice in Catholic Goa is formidable to eradicate. Many questions asked on Goanet will help to clarify the issue and should lead to eventual action. Patience, my friend, is needed but there is hope on the horizon. However, I do not agree with you, when reading in between the lines of your posts that, hard questions on caste are detrimental to promoting more solidarity among the Goans. I seek real in-depth solidarity, not the surface gloss of 'solidarity' underpinned by caste but which essentially segregates a society. Cornel
Re: [Goanet] Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Santosh, Instead of verbally fighting with Cip, who is probably trying to get under your skin, and since you obviously disagree with the caste system, why don't you simply stick with denouncing it among Hindus, as I have denounced it among Catholics? The end. Let those who defend the caste system then continue the dialog, and continue to live by it. The rest of us can consign it to the dustbin of history where it rightly belongs. --- Santosh Helekar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ## > # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact > [EMAIL PROTECTED] # > # Want to check the archives? > http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# > # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to > reflect respect to others # > ## > > > --- Cip Fernandes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > >It appears that Dr. Santosh Helekar is a Hindu not > >by conviction but by birth, inheriting so-called > >Saraswat Brahmin caste, which is very close to > >his heart. > > > > Now, either Cipriano does not know what he is > talking > about or he is deliberately trying to insult me by > calling me a Saraswat Brahmin, and by making an > outrageous charge that my so-called Saraswat Brahmin > caste is very close to my heart. The truth is > Cipriano > knows nothing about me and my attitude towards my > caste. He has also not bothered to find out before > making baseless accusations. > > > > >However, he believes in his inherited so-called > >Saraswat Brahmin caste and he is holding tight to > it. > > > > Not content with using a casteist slur against me, > he > continues to lie about me. Does he deliberately > misunderstand me when I state that I do not hold the > convictions of the religion of my ancestors? I > challenge him to show us how he knows that I believe > in my caste. > > > > >Now, as he is the most intelligent liberal Hindu > (by > >birth only) Goanetter why is he reluctant to > denounce > >publicly his so-called inherited Saraswat > >Brahmin caste on Goanet? > > > > What a joke! Does Cipriano just want me to say that > I > denounce my so-called inherited Saraswat Brahmin > caste > on Goanet? Well, Folks on Goanet, here I go. > > I denounce my so-called inherited saraswat brahmin > caste on Goanet. > > Or is he confusing "denounce" with "renounce"? If he > is then would he believe me if I told him that I > have > already renounced my caste and the practices of > casteism in my own life many years ago? That is > exactly what I have done. That is why calling me a > saraswat brahmin or any such name is an insult to > me. > > I know, this post and any number of others like it > would make no difference to Cipriano as regards his > attitude towards me. In all likelihood he would > continue to believe what he wants to believe. After > all, ironically, those who wrongly accuse others of > discrimination and prejudice by definition suffer > from > prejudice themselves. > > Cheers, > > Santosh > > >
Re: [Goanet] Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Cip Fernandes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >It appears that Dr. Santosh Helekar is a Hindu not >by conviction but by birth, inheriting so-called >Saraswat Brahmin caste, which is very close to >his heart. > Now, either Cipriano does not know what he is talking about or he is deliberately trying to insult me by calling me a Saraswat Brahmin, and by making an outrageous charge that my so-called Saraswat Brahmin caste is very close to my heart. The truth is Cipriano knows nothing about me and my attitude towards my caste. He has also not bothered to find out before making baseless accusations. > >However, he believes in his inherited so-called >Saraswat Brahmin caste and he is holding tight to it. > Not content with using a casteist slur against me, he continues to lie about me. Does he deliberately misunderstand me when I state that I do not hold the convictions of the religion of my ancestors? I challenge him to show us how he knows that I believe in my caste. > >Now, as he is the most intelligent liberal Hindu (by >birth only) Goanetter why is he reluctant to denounce >publicly his so-called inherited Saraswat >Brahmin caste on Goanet? > What a joke! Does Cipriano just want me to say that I denounce my so-called inherited Saraswat Brahmin caste on Goanet? Well, Folks on Goanet, here I go. I denounce my so-called inherited saraswat brahmin caste on Goanet. Or is he confusing "denounce" with "renounce"? If he is then would he believe me if I told him that I have already renounced my caste and the practices of casteism in my own life many years ago? That is exactly what I have done. That is why calling me a saraswat brahmin or any such name is an insult to me. I know, this post and any number of others like it would make no difference to Cipriano as regards his attitude towards me. In all likelihood he would continue to believe what he wants to believe. After all, ironically, those who wrongly accuse others of discrimination and prejudice by definition suffer from prejudice themselves. Cheers, Santosh
RE: [Goanet] Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Cip Fernandes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Someone has to start for others to follow. In case, >if you two cannot do so then please let Goanetters >know what stops you two to do so? > I am not sure what Cipriano is saying here. Is he claiming that I have not publicly denounced the caste system? Well, most people who have read my posts over the years know quite well that I have done more than that on numerous occasions. Several months ago I had even posted a summary of recent findings on how new genetics data confirm that casteism is in fact the earliest form of color-based racism. Heck, I have even denounced fundamentalist Hinduism, itself, and all kinds of Hindu superstitious beliefs, every chance I have gotten. I have also denounced fundamentalist Christianity and Islam. Merwyn is right. I am not a Hindu by conviction - only by birth. If you don't believe me, please go through the Goanet archives and find out for yourself. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Questions about Hindu caste?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## The following is my short attempt to answer the questions raised by Gilbert on this thread. My answers are not meant to offend him or anybody else, except perhaps a few unduly sensitive neoconservatives. --- Gilbert Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Why does the 'below eluded' hypocrisy exist or need >to exist? > Referring to hypocrisy in general, the real scientific answer to this question is not known at present. > >What are the factors that hold back 'intelligent >liberal' Hindus from putting into practice their >convictions and principles? > First, I don't think liberals are necessarily intelligent. And being intelligent has no bearing on whether someone wants to get rid of the casteist mentality or not. I think one overarching factor is lack of courage. Another is fear of ostracism. The two are undoubtedly related. > >If the 'intelligent liberal' Hindus do not provide >the leadership with actions / deeds, then who will? > This appears to be a rhetorical question. But I am tempted to say that, based on the heavy selling that is going on these days on the question of leadership, this might be a good test case for finding out whether a dumb conservative is really a better leader, instead. > >The final question from the above! If not now ... >then when? > Again, not taking this as a rhetorical question, I think progress here will be in small increments. The Goan experience, in particular, has shown that the significance of caste-based differences and practices has progressively declined with each new generation. Cheers, Santosh
