[Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull
My dear Augusto, There are some, me included, who will wonder IF this is the one topic which burns most like our former Rome of the East, or whether it is akin to the fiddle which Nero was playing while Rome was burning. wrt your post, I request that you, please provide some clarification of what you have written. I am sure there are and will be more questions, even from me But let this be a start: Please understand that I absolutely deplore the mention and use of The Hindu Caste System wrt Christianity, be it for subjugation OR for the purpose of gaining special privileges by way of Reservations. The Questions: 1: what specifically have the two priest done? 2: do you have documentary proof? 3: name the person/contact who advised you "a prominent employee automatically blocks such reports to protect the Catholic Church" Please note that ONLY a journalist is expected to protect his sources. 4: what if a 'contact' of mine said to me (say) that Pinto was . 5: would I justified in naming Pinto . and NOT the chap who makes that charge from the shadow? I await your response. jc Augusto Pinto wrote My dear friends, A friend of mine asked me the question which follows with regard to the total disregard all the elite Goans of Catholic persuasion have to the injustices that have been meted out to the Gawdas. He wrote to me: "What I’d love to see most of all is the reaction of the two priests to the allegations made by Joao Fernandes in his book. I guess the reporters in Goa are not interested in following this up, eh!" I'd like to tell this friend who sadly must remain anonymous the history of the essay of Adv. John Fernandes translated from Chapter I of Goencho Mull Avaz. The piece was first offered to the Herald of Goa quite a long time ago which is the natural place for the piece to appear. In spite of reminders as well as personal approaches to an employee who is known to mer I was told that the essay would not be published. No reason was given except my contact said that a prominent employee automatically blocks such reports to protect the Catholic Church.. As far as I reckon - although the issue being debated was contentious, the debate was a civilized and dignified one and should not have had any objection coming by anyone. Sadly the Herald which is obviously the natural channel for the publication of the essay proved that it did not have the guts to cover the story. I don't thiink the current editor Ishaan Joshi who is an outsider would have taken this decision without consulting insiders like Devika Sequeira, Pamela D'Mello and Mervyn Mesquta. I think that it is sad that Devika, Pamela and Mervyn who represent various upper-class if not necessarily upper-caste strands of opinion among Catholic Goans on the Herald chose to kill the story thereby silencing a voice which represented those lower than theirs. After this the essay was sent to the Navhind Times where not only the essay but also a rejoinder by Fr Victor and a reply to that by Adv John were published the following week. However this paper is nowadays not so much read among the Catholics who were the ones who needed to be sensitized to the issue. Obviously, given that the NT does not cater too much to Catholics they had no problem publishing the story. As to whether reporters are interested in following this up, I'd like to tell my good friend, (a courageous and honest reporter himself in his own time) that our journalists have very little courage worth writing home about. They prefer to do PR work for whomever they are contracted to. Incidentally I've heard Fr C D'Silva is in America raising funds for the Pota-style retreat complex called Cruz dos Milagros in Old Goa. And Fr Luis is ths sort who I am told only fights when he has a frenzied mob behind him otherwise he is the sort who believes that discretion is the better part of valor. So on no accounts are we going to get reports from them. Regards Augusto
[Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull
On 23 Aug 2013 "J. Colaco < jc>" wrote: 1. I absolutely deplore the mention and use of The Hindu Caste System wrt Christianity, be it for subjugation OR for the purpose of gaining special privileges by way of Reservations. 2. do you have documentary proof? Comments: 1. This is nothing short of wishful thinking. Just because I deplore the name of a thing, will it disappear just into thin air? The caste system has been and is existing in the Catholic Church in Goa, and knows it! Since he mentions Christianity, let him be advised that in the State of Tamil Nadu, there exist separate churches and cemeteries for the "dalits"! Moreover, (a) the fifth Council of Goa (1606) had decreed that no low caste Indian was to be admitted to the priesthood, (b) by a special dispensation (issued in 1623), Pope Gregory XV allowed the Brahmin converts to wear the sacred thread and other caste markings, and [hold your breath] (c) in his article "The Caste System of India"Jose Colaco himself wrote "A curious oxymoron is the presence and practice of the caste system among the Roman Catholics of Goa and Mangalore. For centuries after conversion to Catholicism, caste discrimination was practiced even within the precincts of the Church! This is slowly dissipating."Unfortunately for him, the Past Tense ["was"] is a lie and the supposed dissipation is not happening even in his own native village of Velim, the chief resistance coming from his own clan that traces its ancestry to Carambolim. 2. This is a very convenient argument for a defence lawyer having a criminal bent of mind; with this ploy, any culprit could go scot free. Consider the following instances: (a) a pickpocket flicks your wallet and, when caught with it, demands documentary proof that the wallet is yours. (b) some years ago, I have seen one of the priests exorcising a Cross in the front yard of a neighbour by striking it repeatedly with a rope accompanied by some "prayers", barely 50 metres away from the place I was sitting in my own house. (c) I claim that the so-called "martyrs of Cuncolim"had earlier desecrated the Shatadurga temple there. What sort of documentary proof would be valid in each of these cases? Sebastian Borges
Re: [Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull
Dear Sebastian Borges, I have always believed that English is a relatively facile language, especially when it is written in the Romi script. So, when I state that " I absolutely deplore the mention and use of The Hindu Caste System wrt Christianity, be it for subjugation OR for the purpose of gaining special privileges by way of Reservations" , I believe that reasonable individuals would understand IT to be a statement of my position and NOT "wishful thinking". Now, I asked Augusto Pinto a few question related to his posting. The questions, inter alia, were (and still are) as follows: 1: what specifically have the two priest done? 2: do you have documentary proof? Would you please clarify WHY you categorized the second question as being a "very convenient argument for a defence lawyer having a criminal bent of mind; with this ploy, any culprit could go scot free" Is it that you are blissfully unaware of the prevailing Law of the Land in which you live; a law which considers an accused as being innocent (and NOT a culprit) unless PROVED to be guilty? I hope I am wrong on this but I wonder whether you have intentionally made a "simple matter complicated" & whether you are "shooting from the hip without reading and digesting the matter". the best of wishes jc
Re: [Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull
Dear Jose Colaco, I have always believed that the English language is written in only one script - the Roman; I presume "Romi" is your way of saying "Roman". Now, from your statement "especially when it is written in the Romi script", I reckon it is written in some other script/s as well. Kindly name this/these additional script/s used for English and oblige. Re: Caste system - (1) If you deplore the mention of any term, I would say that the best course for you would be to desist from participating in any discussion wherein the term is necessarily used. (2) Considering that you had yourself used the term earlier in an article, I put the two statements together and presumed that you are under the mistaken impression that the "dissipation" has done its work and the discrimination is a thing of the past. But that, unfortunately, has not happened. Hence my reference to wishful thinking. (3) Perhaps, like me, you feel that Christianity being an egalitarian religion, caste discrimination has no place therein. But, considering that it does exist and has been existing for centuries, what should be our response as Catholics? Should we close our eyes to the happenings and pretend that it does not exist, because it should not have, or should we do something for its abolition? (4) As far as "special privileges by way of Reservations" is concerned, let us not forget that an injustice was done to Christian dalits by the makers of the Constitution of India under the influence of the Christian members of the Constituent assembly who claimed that caste discrimination did not exist among Christians. One of these was a Catholic priest. And now, over 60 years later, the Christian Churches are pressing to reverse this provision! Re: documentary proof - You are a lawyer, I am not. But there is no question that an accused person is innocent until proved guilty. Yet, a person who himself knows that he is guilty, or his lawyer, can take shelter under this axiom and demand documentary proof; would this not signify a criminal bent of mind? Is it not, therefore, a convenient argument for a criminal or his lawyer to escape punishment? It is not always possible to provide documentary proof; and such is the case with the issue you have taken up and demanded one. In one of my posts I have related a reported act of Fr. Conceicao D'Silva, that he carted away the paraphernalia of the disbanded maandd in Kumbiabhat. What sort of documentary proof could anyone produce? To drive home this point, I have cited three situations where documentary proof would not be available. The first situation, though hypothetical, is not too far fetched. Should the pickpocket be declared innocent for want of documentary proof, in spite of being caught with the res furtiva? The second incident actually happened right in front of my house; the priest concerned is Fr. Conceicao D'Silva, then Chaplain of Ambelim; and he came at the request of the householders. When I relate this incident to friends they do not believe me since, according to them, a Cross cannot be haunted and hence exorcising it is just out of the question. What documentary proof could I produce to convince them that the incident did in fact occur? The third incident occurred over 400 years ago. If I am not able to produce documentary proof would it mean that this incident did not actually occur? Hope I have clarified the matter to your satisfaction. If not, would be pleased to clarify further. Do advise. With regards, Sebastian Borges On 25 August 2013 : Jose Colaco wrote: Dear Sebastian Borges, I have always believed that English is a relatively facile language, especially when it is written in the Romi script. So, when I state that " I absolutely deplore the mention and use of The Hindu Caste System wrt Christianity, be it for subjugation OR for the purpose of gaining special privileges by way of Reservations" , I believe that reasonable individuals would understand IT to be a statement of my position and NOT "wishful thinking". Now, I asked Augusto Pinto a few question related to his posting. The questions, inter alia, were (and still are) as follows: 1: what specifically have the two priest done? 2: do you have documentary proof? Would you please clarify WHY you categorized the second question as being a "very convenient argument for a defence lawyer having a criminal bent of mind; with this ploy, any culprit could go scot free" Is it that you are blissfully unaware of the prevailing Law of the Land in which you live; a law which considers an accused as being innocent (and NOT a culprit) unless PROVED to be guilty? I hope I am wrong on this but I wonder whether you have intentionally made a "simple matter complicated" & whether you are "shooting from the hip without reading and digesting the matter". the best of wishes jc --- Sebastian Borges
Re: [Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull
My response (jc) to Sebastian Borges (SB) SB 1: Re: Caste system - If you deplore the mention of any term, I would say that the best course for you would be to desist from participating in any discussion wherein the term is necessarily used. jc1: My suggestion: Rather than make a "simple matter complicated", please "read and digest the matter" and please avoid "shooting from the hip". Until you have "read and digested the matter", consider inviting yourself to please "desist from participating in any discussion" on that matter. I re-repeat what I stated: I absolutely deplore the mention and use of The Hindu Caste System wrt Christianity, be it for subjugation OR for the purpose of gaining special privileges by way of Reservations" Please feel free to intentionally or negligently misrepresent what I have written. That would be your choice. BTW: It is a technique which I expect hacktivists and politicians to utilise, NOT an educated person. SB 2: As far as "special privileges by way of Reservations" is concerned, let us not forget that an injustice was done to Christian dalits by the makers of the Constitution of India under the influence of the Christian members of the Constituent assembly who claimed that caste discrimination did not exist among Christians. One of these was a Catholic priest. JC 2: Was Goa a participant in that Constituent Assembly? If not, why is that argument being placed here? SB 3a: Re: documentary proof - a person who himself knows that he is guilty, or his lawyer, can take shelter under this axiom and demand documentary proof; would this not signify a criminal bent of mind? Is it not, therefore, a convenient argument for a criminal or his lawyer to escape punishment? SB 3b: It is not always possible to provide documentary proof JC 3: I am still not sure IF you realise that you are now governed, in criminal matters, by a Common Law form of justice. SB 4: I have related a reported act of Fr. Conceicao D'Silva, that he carted away the paraphernalia of the disbanded maandd in Kumbiabhat. JC 4: So, I assume that you have reported this alleged act to the Police. SB 5: (your hypothetical) - Should the pickpocket be declared innocent for want of documentary proof, in spite of being caught with the res furtiva? JC 5: Please "read and digest" your question before answering it yourself. Would not res furtiva (stolen goods) be the documentary proof required by law? SB 6: The third incident occurred over 400 years ago. If I am not able to produce documentary proof would it mean that this incident did not actually occur? JC 6: How do you know for sure that it occurred? Hey, have you not heard that in Dec 1961, Portugal had amassed battalions of soldiers in Goa and had set about massacring thousands of innocent Goans. Was it (is it) true? In my two disciplines, I have been taught NEVER to Jump to conclusions, rather to look at ALL THE FACTS of the case. Remember, while individuals with Pneumonia almost invariably present with a cough, NOT ALL individuals who present with cough suffer from Pneumonia. There are two major points in common law WHY this thing called PROOF (incl. significant circumstantial proof) is required before rendering a guilty verdict: a: The Accused has the right to cross examine the Accuser (exceptional cases having been noted) b: The myriad of Wrongful Conviction case. http://www.innocenceproject.org/ SB 7: Hope I have clarified the matter to your satisfaction. If not, would be pleased to clarify further. Do advise. JC 7: My satisfaction is irrelevant to the topic. What is more important is: Are we analysing ALL the available facts of cases OR are we rushing to judgment on the basis of Hearsay? jc
Re: [Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull
My response to "J. Colaco < jc>" of Goanet 26 Aug 2013: JC 2: Was Goa a participant in that Constituent Assembly? If not, why is that argument being placed here? SB Response: (a) You did not specify that you deplore the mention and use of The Hindu Caste System wrt Christianity only in Goa. (b) The decisions of the Constituent Assembly affect Goan dalit Christians as well. JC 4: So, I assume that you have reported this alleged act to the Police. SBR: I have no locus standi here, since the paraphernalia of the maand did not belong to me or to my family. Moreover, it was not even a case of theft since the credulous old lady of the house willingly handed over the things on being told by the Rev. Father that they are the handiwork of the devil. In Ambaulim too the modus operandi must have been similar; to the best of my knowledge and belief, there was no forcible iconoclastic activity similar to that of the sixteenth century padres. JC 6: How do you know for sure that it [the desecration of the Cuncolim temple 400 years ago] occurred? Hey, have you not heard that in Dec 1961, Portugal had amassed battalions of soldiers in Goa and had set about massacring thousands of innocent Goans. SBR: I am sure that the event occurred because Fr. Thomas Stephens wrote about it in a letter to his brother on 24th October 1683; the incident had occurred on 25th July the same year i.e. barely 3 months earlier. Fr. Stephens, a Jesuit himself, was a confrere of the “martyrs” at Rachol. The letter is reproduced in full in his Christian Puranna (1907) edited by Joseph L. Saldanha (p. XXXI). This is the relevant excerpt: <<. With these, two other Brahmins and a boy of the same caste and descended from the very people of Cuncolim, whom however the inhabitants did not spare on account of their great hatred for the Fathers. Another boy of excellent character and tried virtue, named Alphonsus, fell in with the enemy, and because he would not give up the breviary of Fr. Peter Berno, the tendons of his hands and knees were cut. .. Fr. Peter Berno, a Lombard from near Lago Maggiore, proved himself such a strenuous and zealous soldier of Christ, that it was believed of him that within a few months he would leave but few pagans in his parish. Not long before, he had accompanied the Portuguese army and was the first to set fire to the Cuncolim temple. He had also slain a cow upon the altar of the idol so as to clear the place of the superstitious people. He was therefore hated by the infidels, as was seen from the horrible treatment of his body; for they plucked one of his eyes, cut off the whole of his skull and committed other acts of atrocity which I am loath to recount. >> Your facebook forward about December 1961 is just some rubbish meant to hide the truth. Can you deny (1) that Salazar had ordered a scorched earth policy in Goa, the destruction of buildings of non-military Portuguese heritage, (2) that preparations for this had in fact been made with barrels of petrol being transported to the Palacio do Idalcao, (3) that the Governor Vassalo e Silva did not carry out these orders, (4) that upon repatriation to Portugal, he was accordingly court-martialled and exiled, (5) that he returned and regained his military rank only in 1974, upon the fall of the Salazar regime? Sebastian Borges
Re: [Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull
Before this particular subject got unfortunately subverted on to a tangent by Prof. Sebastian Borges, I had asked Augusto Pinto a few questions. These questions were directly related to some very (IMO) uncorroborated charges made by Augusto against some prominent Goa based Goan journalists. The intervening ofuscação caused by Borges interventions having been noted, I return to the questions which I believe would merit from answers. So ...here it goes: THE AUGUSTO PINTO CHARGES: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2013-August/233708.html it is sad that Devika, Pamela and Mervyn who represent various upper-class if not necessarily upper-caste strands of opinion among Catholic Goans on the Herald chose to kill the story thereby silencing a voice which represented those lower than theirs. THE AUGUSTO PINTO LAMENTATION http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2013-August/233480.html I feel sad for people like Frederick Noronha, George Menezes, Pamela D'Mello, VM, Santosh Helekar, Jose Colaco, Jose Lourenco, Cecil Pinto and others who otherwise like to wax eloquent on all and every subject. Why the sudden silence now? THE UNANSWERED QUESTIONS (inter alia) http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2013-August/233725.html 1: what specifically have the two priest done? 2: do you have documentary proof? 3: name the person/contact who advised you "a prominent employee automatically blocks such reports to protect the Catholic Church" jc
Re: [Goanet] Augusto Pinto: Mull ani Bull - hopefully....FINAL
Dear Sebastian Borges, Your response re: Constituent Assembly suggest that you are a politician. Your response re: Not Reporting an alleged Criminal Act to the police indicates that you are happier spreading gossip on public forums than report the matter to the police. Furthermore, your use of 'No locus standi' is pure unadulterated hogwash. NOBODY needs any locus standi to REPORT a crime to the authorities. Wrt Cuncolim: If you have circumstantial evidence (copy of letter) [ I assume ...true copy], wonder what was your carbuncle about 'no proof'? I will conclude my contribution to this topic with a comment on the following point which demonstrates beyond a scintilla of doubt that SB 'shoots from the hip' without 'reading and digesting' the material. On Aug 27, 2013, at 2:24 AM, Sebastian Borges wrote: "Your facebook forward about December 1961 is just some rubbish meant to hide the truth. Can you deny (1) that Salazar had ordered a scorched earth policy in Goa, the destruction of buildings of non-military Portuguese heritage, (2) that preparations for this had in fact been made with barrels of petrol being transported to the Palacio do Idalcao, (3) that the Governor Vassalo e Silva did not carry out these orders, (4) that upon repatriation to Portugal, he was accordingly court-martialled and exiled, (5) that he returned and regained his military rank only in 1974, upon the fall of the Salazar regime? " jc RESPONSE: ALL of the above are true. The questions are as follows: 1: Did 1961 occur as a result of the above Salazarist plan OR 2: Did the above occur as a result of the build up to 1961? 3: You did not read what the attached (in front) Facebook original message stated, did you? 4: IF a reasonable person had "read and digested" that message, he would hardly be 'shooting from the hip' and attempting misrepresentation (intentional or negligent) like Sebastian Borges has done. OK now I have exhausted my knowledge on this topic. You have the last word on this please. As far as I am concerned, You have won the debate. So did Hearsay and Machiavelli and Serial Misrepresentation. Bravo !! I willingly concede that I have No wish to have any Locus Standi in the spreading of Gossip and Hearsay. Yours in Romi jc
