[Goanet] GHANTII
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 12:41:30 -0400 From: MD\Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] Since Mario Goveia is the only point of contact and has declared has ancestry, may I caution Mario not to visit his family in the zoo or try to befriend them by feeding them peanuts while they at at it. They have the keen instinct to recognise their kind and might go after him..they have a tendency to go after both of their kind...u know what I mean. Mario responds: It looks like Maurice thinks he descended from Adam, who was made from Eve's rib in the Garden of Eden:-)) Memo to Fr. Ivo: Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa:-)) No, I don't know what you mean, because the apes I mentioned are only upset with those who write nonsense, which puts you in more danger than me:-)) Maurice wrote: I do not see any man appreciating beauty of a woman, but it could be different in your current domicile. Mario responds: I have no idea what you are saying here. Maurice wrote: How about some politics for a change. Mario responds: You want politics? Here it is in a nutshell: Goa is becoming a mess. Orissa is under anarchy. Throw the bums out at the next election. Case closed. Maurice wrote: I do not know how to good bye to you, and I am scared to scratch my nose! Mario responds: I'm sure much more than your nose must be scratching by now:-))
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 00:12:03 -0400 From: oscar lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is all history now and the most important thing the Portuguese did for Goa is to save the race of Goans and whatever they built in Goa helped India to showcase tourism and help the politicians after 1961 to reap the benefit. It is due to the Portuguese that there are Hindus who have been a majority always and Catholics who converted from Hinduism that are true Goans from Goa. We had a choice to be what we wanted. If not for the Portuguese all of us would have been Muslims today or our entire race would have been eradicated - you and I would not have the names and surnames that we have. Mario observes: I think all Goanetters should cut and paste this intellectual gem and save it for their grandchildren. When I read that the colonial-era Portuguese, who Oscar describes as relatively uneducated when compared to other Europeans of their time, were so wise that they arranged for Hindus to be the majority community in Goa and saved all of us from becoming Muslims, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry:-)) Oscar wrote: After the invasion of Goa in 1961, the Goans have been ignored by the Indian government and we are almost loosing our identity. Mario responds: Hey, Gabriel, please sit Oscar down and explain to him about all those SEZ's that the Indian government ignored Goa with. Oscar wrote: The Goans are also the most sociable people amongst other people in India and this we got from the Portuguese. Mario asks: Yes, but where did we get that famous Goan crab mentality from???:-)) Oscar wrote: Cornell, please join forces to get our Goan identity and other issues in Goa settled - Mario observes: I thought it had already been settled that there was no such thing as any unique Goan identity. Even Oscar and Gabriel, both of Goan ancestry and living, not in Goa or Mozambique or Angola or Portugal, but in AUSTRALIA, have different Goan identities. Rajan and Santosh and Mukesh Mehta and Jane and Selma and Celina and Katrina and Cornell and Gilbert and Ed and Arwin and Shakeel-bhai, my mechanic when I am in Goa, and on and on and on, all have their own versions of Goan identity.
[Goanet] GHANTII
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 06:22:49 +0530 From: U P Kamath [EMAIL PROTECTED] I find Manglorean Catholic girls and women quite attractive, whereas I find Goan catholics distinctively ugly in general. I feel It is due to 450 years of Portuguese slavery. Now one may be politically correct and accuse me of bias. But I feel the Mangalorean Catholics had more freedom for generations and it shows on their faces! Mario observes: Even coming from a Goan nationalist family, with relatives who worked tirelessly to drive the Portuguese out of Goa, this post contains the most ignorant series of comments I have ever seen on Goanet, and there have been some beauties - pun intended - over the years:-)) To begin with, what kind of lack of knowledge or malfunctioning intellect does it take for even a Portuguese-hater to describe Goa before 1961 as 450 years of slavery??? I would refer Mr. Kamath to the nearest dictionary so that he can see what slavery means. By his definition every Indian during the 300 some years prior to 1947 would also be a slave. While there are reports of some coercion in inducing conversions to Christianity, the assumption of Portuguese names was part of the Portuguese culture which confused religion with one's name; no more, no less. U.P. Kamath wrote: Let me put forth a simple observation, in poor taste, though. It may be relative, because it is in the eye of the beholder. They have not assimilated into the local population, Mario observes: The only realistic comment by Mr. Kamath is the one in which he admits making a comment in poor taste. I would say that poor taste is an understatement but Goanet rules would not allow an accurate description of Mr. Kamath's taste:-)) The misguided comment about the relative beauty of Goan and Mangalorean women, which it took an incredible level of poor tase to even conceive, can be judged by Mr. Kamath's own words when he describes Mangaloreans as Goans who migrated and then did not assimilate with the Canarese. The last time I checked, Reita Faria and Iona Pinto were Goans, not Mangaloreans.
[Goanet] GHANTII
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 07:35:28 +0530 From: U P Kamath [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am not religious, unlike you, so the slur about ape passes me by. Mario writes: Mr. Kamath may have misunderstood whom the slur was against:-)) There is another side to this. I just got a phone call from the local zoo. The apes have read his comments about Goan women being uglier than Mangalorean women, right after saying that Mangaloreans were simply Goans who had migrated and had not assimilated with the Canarese. The apes think that Mr. Kamath, as a Goan man, should have included his own physique in his comparison and not been a sexist by referreing only to women. This made no sense to the apes who pride themselves on being our real ancestors and are therefore not happy when one of us writes nonsense. Then, to add insult to injury, someone else calls him an ape:-)). The apes said they knew all about Goan crabs, and are not amused by being compared to a Goan crab:-)) The apes have asked Goanetters to please not slur THEM in future by using them in inappropriate comprisons:-)) Thank you.
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII
--- On Sun, 8/31/08, U P Kamath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am not religious, unlike you, so the slur about ape passes me by. --- The slur is in your own mind. The only point I was trying to make is that there is no DNA difference between two human beings and only a minor one between humans and apes. Your arguments about 450 years of colonisation having produced inferior stock among Catholic Goans, is the real slur and one you have not yet apologised for. Whether you find Goan Catholic women, attractive or not is your business but to assign religion to be the cause of their unattractiveness, is racism at its worst. As for me being religious, please don't presume anything. It's generally a good idea to get to know people before commenting on their belief systems. selma
[Goanet] GHANTII
Hi Mello I think you mis-read my post. Please read it again. Yet I am glad my post led you to write an excellent review of early Portuguese history in Goa. Surely Mangloreans are a Goan diaspora; contrary to what Kamath would have us believe. Regards, GL -- MD\Mello, I was in two minds, weather to comment or not. But could not resist G.L.'s complement on the looks of Mangalorean Catholic women. Just to remind you, G.L., they too are of Goan Saraswat stock, whose ancestors fled to the south in search of security and greener pasture. They struggled, prospered and then many perished under Tipu Sultan.
[Goanet] GHANTII
I had many remarks from many Goan I will try to answer some. First as the debate borders on racism and religion, I should first state what I am in the eyes of those who judge by birth: I am a Canara Hindu GSB, so I trace my ancestry to Goa. I am an agnostic. One is free to comment on my bias, for I believe History depends on what you are and I do not put myself above bias. I do believe ones perspective on history depends on ones birth and circumstances. Was British rule more benign than Portuguese? Ans: Britain has the longest democratic tradition to date. So, it had some checks and balances. Democracy came to Portugal after liberation of Goa - 1975 or so. So Authoritarian rule back home had no effect on the colonies? If Portuguese rule was so great why did so many Catholics migrated to the Canara during their rule, That too pretty early during 17th and 18th century? Catholic population of Canara is more than five lakhs! Please note that I have not used any derogatory words like mangies, as used by Bernado Colaco in his reply. I am amused - may be I had hit the nail on its head - that's probably why I am getting abused - you are welcome Bernando. About Catholic second names: D Cunha, DeSa and Fernandez are Portuguese Family names. We have protestant converts who just change their first names to indicate their change in faith. Eg: Ronald Praveen Kumar, Godwin Prabhakar or Simon Karkada. When you are forced to change your family name you show disrespect to your ancestry. You changed your religion because you find the one followed by your ancestors did not deliver - OK. By the same count when you change your family name .. *Remember family names like D Cunha, DeSa and Fernandez have nothing to do with Christanity* and they have everything to do with Portuguese families. Show me one GO of British India which disallowed Indians from conversing in their mother tongue! Can you say the same of the Portuguese? I do not in any way support Goa's invasion by India. I feel that People of Goa should have been left decide their own fate. But that does not mean one should not try to have a rational look at history. Try to have an impersonate reading of history. I know it is difficult, but unless one tries it, the process of arriving at relative truth becomes more difficult. upkamath
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII
--- On Sat, 8/30/08, U P Kamath [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is also survival of fittest in evolution. I was pointing this had negative effect on the racial stock of Goa, due to oppressive slavery of the Portuguese - free spirited people could not survive their oppression - they either died early or migrated to British India. - Dear U P Kamath, I sigh in relief to know that your remark was not an ethnic slur but intended to be a deep study in genetic modification brought on by slavery and oppression, as you put it. Now, to further extrapolate based on your theory, we know from history that Brahmins were the most oppressed group under Muslim rule in India, hence as a homogenised group, they would be genetically disposed to produce the weakest stock. To take your theory outside of India for a moment, and examine it in the area of free-spiritedness and survival of the fittest, European Jews should be of inferior stock to Germanic Europeans, seeing that they have endured not just years but centuries of oppression in Europe. I do believe there was a man who postulated this very theory at one point in our recent history. Yes, you and I have the same ancestors, only to the extent that the Jamaican I met on the street the other day has the same ancestors as me, and the ape I saw in the zoo, is my genetic cousin. But seeing that you consider Catholics as emerging from a vastly inferior stock, I say let's not stress too much on what we have in common, for it's very little indeed. selma
[Goanet] GHANTII
I am not religious, unlike you, so the slur about ape passes me by. As I do not see much genetic distance from me to the ape. As for the Jamaican, the genetic distance between two extreme branch of humans - with a head count of over 6 billion is much less than between two extreme individuals of Chimps - poppulation of about hundred thousand. Now, me, the Jamaican and the ape form a group - quite a group. I presume the Jamaican is a protestant. Me and the ape, have close religious affinity as we two are irreligious. You seem to prefer the company of one well known Austrian Catholic from the earlier half of the twentieth century. Wow! I do envy the company you keep, He is not only a Catholic, unlike my group, where all the three of us are black, he is a European and snow white at that! upkamath
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:35:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabriel de Figueiredo I am not here to give you a history lesson, but please do yourselves a favour and get your facts right. Mario observes: Gabriel, Far from giving us a history lesson, you are revising history while looking at it through rose tinted glasses. Regarding facts, let me remind you that you had to concede in your previous post on the subject that the white Portuguese masters you seem to be so keen on being subservient to - so much so that their leaving Africa resulted in your avoiding Mozambique and Angola - did not provide their colonial serfs in Goa with electricity, running water, phones, colleges, universities, banks, not to mention roads and bridges, freedom and democracy. Even the stand-offish Brits provided some or all of these things in the rest of India, and developed India's judiciary and secular philosophy for the most part which is remarkable for a poor country where 80% of the population is Hindu. To not develop their colony as the Brits did right next door is a mark of a callous and careless colonial country. By the way you could have migrated to Portugal, but you chose a civilized ex-Brit colony like Australia:-)) Gabriel wrote: Oh, BTW, kindly find out the difference between living in a village (or countryside) and living in a city. That way, perhaps having come to Goa for a holiday might be put in the right context (e.g. pig-toilet, snakes, et al). Mario observes: Unfortunately for the point you are unsuccessfully trying to make, those same villages now have modern sanitary systems, in addition to easy access to electricity, running water, phones, colleges, universities, banks, not to mention roads and bridges, freedom and democracy Gabriel wrote: I've been in places here in Australia where the running water is only meant for bathing (yuk) and flushing, as it stinks of rotting vegetation Mario observes: Once again, you have made my point and not your own. Modern Goan villages, since the Portuguese were kicked out in 1961, now have far better water systems than the places in Australia you are describing.
[Goanet] GHANTII
Dear UP Kamath, There is a lot of depth to what you say about Maglorean Catholic women. And you cannot be faulted one bit. Besides slavery, it is the enslavement as in the enslaved mind that does one in -- as it appears to have done to the larger Goan population. I do believe that Goan Hindus despite assiduously preserving what they saw as their core identifications; also got benumbed under Portuguese influence. They benefited a lot although it is not that obvious. Furthermore, this I believe is one deeper reason why the political as well as aspects of Goan society were so desperate to be part of the Maharashtra fold -- perhaps in an existential way to become complete again -- or so I presume. The role of women in any society tells one a lot about that society, and in the end it is usually the women who fight for justice as well as salvation (not in the Christian sense) from any form of enslavement as has been seen often in modernity. Again, splendid points UP. venantius j pinto From: U P Kamath [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet] GHANTII I find Manglorean Catholic girls and women quite attractive, whereas I find Goan catholics distinctively ugly in general. I feel It is due to 450 years of Portuguese slavery. Now one may be politically correct and accuse me of bias. But I feel the Mangalorean catholics had more freedom for generations and it shows on their faces!
[Goanet] GHANTII - BEAUTIFUL AND CONSTITUTIONALLY FREE GOANS
Dear goanetters and U.P. Kamath, A very famous sayingBeauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Your statement below - whereas I find Goan catholics distinctively ugly in general My response - Please let me remind you, that it was goan beauty, Rita Faria of Tivim village, Goa, who won the Miss World Beauty pageant. Unlike you, the international judges correctly judged her the most beautiful woman in the world. You must visit our goan get-to-gethers throughout the world, as well as in Goa and you will see the beautiful women and handsome and very intelligent goan men. Just for your information, the height of the females and males of my family range from 5'9 to 6'3. Your statement - I feel It is due to 450 years of Portuguese slavery. Now one may be politically correct and accuse me of bias. But I feel the Mangalorean catholics had more freedom for generations and it shows on their faces! My response - All goans are proud of - Goan Civil Code Did you know that the state of Goa has one of those legal rarities- the pre-nuptial agreement? The Goan civil code Goa has had a uniform civil code for the last 500 years. Though written in Portuguese, it has been translated into English. The Goan government has realised that these old laws may need to be changed or altered to some extent. Especially the laws concerning property distribution during marriage and divorce. Marriage The uniform civil code insists that all couples must register their intent to marry as well as the marriage itself. The code supersedes religious rules. If a marriage is not registered, the court does not recognize it. Pre- Nuptial Agreement In a pre- nuptial agreement, the couple should choose any of the three available systems which deal with property distribution. This contract cannot be changed after the marriage has taken place. Property If no contract has been signed, it is custom of the country that governs by default. It is assumed that the couple married under communion of property. Properties that belong separately to each of the spouses need to be registered. Otherwise it will be assumed to be community property. All property acquired during the marriage is considered joint property - to be equally divided in case of divorce. Couples who choose to marry under separate property regime must necessarily reject the communion of property. Each of the property acquired even after marriage can only be registered in the name of one of the spouses. There is no dual ownership. The third system is dotal regime, which has couples specifying the property included in the endowment. Though these contracts have a lot of flexibility, they must be drawn up before the marriage. Not a single clause can be changed after the wedding. These family laws in Goa aim to protect both the parties. But like any other law, ignorance of these laws render them less effective. Women should be made aware of these laws and their rights to prefer separate property regimes. Divorce Laws The divorce laws in Goa aim to be fair to both parties. Both the families have three of their members to represent them. They play a significant role in granting a separation and maintenance to be allotted to the needy spouse. If the divorce is not mutually sought but contested, the children's custody usually goes to the person who wants to keep the marriage intact and avoid divorce. These laws apply equally to every one in Goa. Personal law plays no role here. Goan laws are an example of how uniform civil codes treat every member of the society impartially. PLEASE TELL ME WHO HAS MORE FREEDOM Regards === Message: 11 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 06:22:49 +0530 From: U P Kamath [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet] GHANTII To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear Gabriel, It is true that Goa was crime free during Portuguese rule. But racism under them was much more severe than the British! The state was much more oppressive. I find that centuries of Portuguese repression, or rather slavery, should i list: Take the Goan catholic names for example: When did Da Costa, De Cunha, Fernandes or Quatros become more christian than Goan family name like Kakodkar, Shirodkar, Poi or Prabhu? So, Govan Catholicism was not just religious conversions. They destroyed your ancestry and implanted Portuguese ancestry on you. Let me put forth a simple observation, in poor taste, though. It may be relative, because it is in the eye of the beholder. Note that Mangalorean Catholics migrated to the Canara from Goa in the 17th and 18th century. They have not assimilated into the local population, though they live harmoniously with the locals. They have their religion intact, Go to masses on Sundays and other festive days etc. They have preserved
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII - BEAUTIFUL AND CONSTITUTIONALLY FREE GOANS
U P Kamath wrote: I find Manglorean Catholic girls and women quite attractive, whereas I find Goan catholics distinctively ugly in general. I feel It is due to 450 years of Portuguese slavery. Now one may be politically correct and accuse me of bias. But I feel the Mangalorean catholics had more freedom for generations and it shows on their faces! - I have no idea what U P Kamath was thinking when he wrote this bilious post, but I suspect this observation has something to do with the sort of communal tripe that is bandied about in Goa these day. 450 years of colonisation has had little effect on the Konkan gene pool, either on the Hindu or the Catholic side. An insignificant percentage of the Goan population is mestizo. The rest of us are as ethnically intact as Mangolerean or Maharasthran Indians. Secondly beauty lies not in faces but in attitudes. If 450 years of being Catholic, has made us a tolerant, progressive, well-educated, lowest birth rate, highest ratio of female to male birth rate, and high per capita income society, then maybe its time other communities to take a page from our book. selma
[Goanet] GHANTII
To begin with, I wish we ended the title of this thread as it is no longer and in no way connected to the contents of the posts. In keeping with my other series of posts, that I am writing, with all due respects to Kamath, I have to repeat the by-line You told us the fiction, now lets see the facts U P Kamath UPK: But racism under them (Portuguese) was much more severe than the British! The state was much more oppressive. GL: There are no facts to support this statement. UPK: When did Da Costa, De Cunha, Fernandes or Quatros become more christian than Goan family name like Kakodkar, Shirodkar, Poi or Prabhu? GL: No one claimed the new names were more Christian. Converts changing names is seen more recently when 'whites' convert to Hinduism or Buddhism. Individuals also change their name when they take a new nationality as is done when one takes citizenship. That does not mean that one abandons their original identity. A rose is sweet by whatever name one gives it Would you call Hindus in USA or UK who have changed to Western names any less Hindu? UPK: So, Govan Catholicism was not just religious conversions. They destroyed your ancestry and implanted Portuguese ancestry on you. GL: How can this be possible unless there is a genetic transmission? UPK: Let me put forth a simple observation, in poor taste, though. It may be relative, because it is in the eye of the beholder. Note that Mangalorean Catholics migrated to the Canara from Goa in the 17th and 18th century. They have not assimilated into the local population, though they live harmoniously with the locals. They have their religion intact, Go to masses on Sundays and other festive days etc. They have preserved their Konkani language, publications, music and Theater. GL: Does not the above apply to Goan Catholics? Dose not the Goan and Manglorean cultural practices of the Christian community contradict your prior statement? UPK: I find Manglorean Catholic girls and women quite attractive, whereas I find Goan catholics distinctively ugly in general. I feel It is due to 450 years of Portuguese slavery. Now one may be politically correct and accuse me of bias. But I feel the Mangalorean catholics had more freedom for generations and it shows on their faces! GL: This comment devoid of any logic does not need to be dignified with a response. This statement (if true) suggest there was / is no connection between being Christian and being Goan. Regards, GL
[Goanet] GHANTII
U P Kamath wrote: It is true that Goa was crime free during Portuguese rule.But racism under them was much more severe than the British! The state was much more oppressive. Comment: Whether racism was more or less severe than the British, only someone who has made a comparative study can comment. To the layman both were undesirable. UPA: I find that centuries of Portuguese repression, or rather slavery, should i list: Take the Goan catholic names for example: When did Da Costa, De Cunha, Fernandes or Quatros become more christian than Goan family name like Kakodkar, Shirodkar, Poi or Prabhu? So, Govan Catholicism was not just religious conversions.They destroyed your ancestry and implanted Portuguese ancestry on you. Comment: May I suggest that you visit the libraries and study goan history before punching your keyboard. A goan is as alike to a Portuguese as chalk is to cheese. Not only has the goan catholic inherited the customs and traditions of the his Hindu ancestors but even the obnoxious caste system. So much for destroying ancestry and implanting Portuguese ancestry. A rose called by any other name smells just the same. UPA: Note that Mangalorean Catholics migrated to the Canara from Goa in the 17th and 18th century.They have not assimilated into the local population, though they live harmoniously with the locals. They have their religion intact, Go to masses on Sundays and other festive days etc. They have preserved their Konkani language, publications, music and Theater. Comment: The goan catholics are no different. Please visit any of the villages.The people live as harmoniously with their neighbours, go to church and have preserved their language, culture, music and theatre. UPA: I find Manglorean Catholic girls and women quite attractive, whereas I find Goan catholics distinctively ugly in general. I feel It is due to 450 years of Portuguese slavery. Now one may be politically correct and accuse me of bias. But I feel the Mangalorean catholics had more freedom for generations and it shows on their faces. Comment: Maybe you need to visit an optician for an eye check up.Please check how many goan girls have been selected as Airhostesses, become Models, won beauty contests, become filmstars. And to connect beauty with Portuguese rule defies logic. Regards, Marshall
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII
UP, What does beauty have to do with religion or colonial rule ? Mangalorean girls generally look beautiful both catholic and hindus. e.g is Aishwarya Rai, Shilpa Shetty, Genelia D'Souza and Rita Lobo (from a well known Konkani movie) This might be a genetic thing and has nothing to do with religion. Even among GSB's - Kannada GSB girls seem more attractive e.g Deepika Padukone, Amrita Rao. Does this also have something to do with Portuguese ? Also it would be wrong to call some *ugly* just because your definition of beauty is different. regards Rishikesh
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII - BEAUTIFUL AND CONSTITUTIONALLY FREE GOANS
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 10:17:45 + From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] GHANTII - BEAUTIFUL AND CONSTITUTIONALLY FREE GOANS Dear goanetters and U.P. Kamath, A very famous sayingBeauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Your statement below - whereas I find Goan catholics distinctively ugly in general My response - Please let me remind you, that it was goan beauty, Rita Faria of Tivim village, Goa, who won the Miss World Beauty pageant. Unlike you, the international judges correctly judged her the most beautiful woman in the world. You must visit our goan get-to-gethers throughout the world, as well as in Goa and you will see the beautiful women and handsome and very intelligent goan men. Just for your information, the height of the females and males of my family range from 5'9 to 6'3. Great Rita, of the Binanca days down to our days of L'oreal masks. Go to Goan get togethers, yes. But hardly throughout the world Oue paddied wil furnish pritine beauty enoyg... Teo, who is that poet that went so wondefully lyriacal? ...as nòssas curumbinas... tenras e ladinas..., so forth... Alfred de Tavares, Who beheld, enjoyed unrivaled beauty under many a cajú ...kantam bower... _ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-ussource=wlmailtagline
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII
Sure, Mario (and Cornel and others), I will keep on harping on the good side of sossegado life. After all, life today in Portugal is still sossegado compared to the rat race of the rest of Europe. Why did I come to Australia? Oh! before I came to Australia, I lived in London. Why didn't I go to Angola/Mocambique? Beacause by the time I was ready for adventure, these countries were no longer Portuguese. Anyhow, I don't want to be baited out of the context. You say Goa did not have elections and freedom. Oh yes, Goa had a legislative assembly and Goa was represented at the Portuguese courts (during the monarchia) and later parliament (during the republican era). Look, I am not here to give you a history lesson, but please do yourselves a favour and get your facts right. Find out about Francisco Luis Gomes, Dr. Froilano Machado, Purxotoma Quenim, and others. Oh, BTW, kindly find out the difference between living in a village (or countryside) and living in a city. That way, perhaps having come to Goa for a holiday might be put in the right context (e.g. pig-toilet, snakes, et al). I've been in places here in Australia where the running water is only meant for bathing (yuk) and flushing, as it stinks of rotting vegetation (after all it is tank water obtained from the roof of the residence). For drinking/cooking either use boiled (yuk again) or use bottled. Walking again could mean you could swallow a fly or two if conversing with another or squishing through mud where cattle had been previously. Anyhow, its all part of the fun when one's holidaying in the countryside, but that does not mean that all of Australia is like those places. This is my last comment on this topic, as I hate repeating myself, year after year. Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII
Hi Gabriel Nice to hear from you after a seemingly long absence. I am however rather bemused by your long list of Portuguese contributions over 451 years in Goa but regret to say that they were of negligible help to Goa economically and in terms of developing a modern infrastructure. Had they done much better, perhaps we might not have had the massive exodus from Goa, over at least two centuries, of the Catholic Goans in particular. For lack of time now, I will confine myself to a few quick points: a) Up to 1961, in my periodic visits to Goa from Kenya during my dad's 6 month long leave periods, I found Goa incredibly backwards compared to Kenya. It was like visiting a land forgotten by modern economic development. Basic utilities like electricity, running water, and adequate road transport were simply missing. For me, it was definitely a worthwhile education in understanding life in fairly primitive conditions--especially re the toilets! b) I had relatives whom I visited from Kenya in other parts of India, whose living conditions were far superior to what was available in Goa. Indeed, the ones around my age simply dreaded travelling to Goa on holiday. Apart from some incredible long and exhausting walks to the beach and back, there was nothing much recreational nor educative for them to do in Goa. These were people familiar with plentiful electricity, running water, libraries, museums, zoos, public exhibitions, good transport and other amenities. In short, Goa had no comparable attraction for them whatsoever. Of course, this is merely illustrative as we do know that there were parts of India infinitely more disadvantaged than Goa. c) Re the crime rates, yes they were low in Goa because of the acute repression imposed by the Portuguese as well as by the relative emptiness of Goa due to a net outflow of people. Often, the men folk went to work at sea and left their women behind to raise children--something hardly conducive to good family life. Yet, it is precisely in these crime free times that Portuguese physical brutality was widely evident and suffered by many, including by me personally at the hands of Portuguese soldiers with rifles in hand--yes, when meekly queueing to visit the SFX shrine in Old Goa! There was no redress for gratuitous Portuguese violence dear Gabriel, including for those incarcerated in Aguada and other prisons when all that some vocally articulated was for freedom from oppressive colonial rule. I am therefore puzzled Gabriel that, this aspect is not factored into your 'credit worthy' contribution by the Portuguese over 451 years in Goa. c) And now, on a more 'provocative note' whilst agreeing with you that the British largely left the Indians alone re caste, languages, customs, etc (excepting sati), the entire Portuguese colonial emphasis was to change us Goans from being Indians to versions of themselves--particularly culturally. This included the provision of Portuguese nationality. Consequently and sadly, the hidden code of many a Goan asserting they were Goan, was to effectively distance themselves, false-consciously, from being taken to be Indians! Thankfully, this absurd situation has been changing since liberation in 1961 and so much for the better, particularly through the wider availability of education to many. Unlike the rest of India, the Portuguese tried to make us Catholic Goans as non Indian as possible even though we are definitely ethnically Indian. In short, the repressive and authoritarian Portuguese hegemony over long periods worked against what our real Indian identities were and if any are still thus confused, it is time we stopped fooling ourselves further--irrespective of what passports we may hold. My final thought is that, bearing in mind the inevitability of European colonial rule in recent history, and that all colonialism, without exception, exists to extract resources from conquered countries and to subordinate the natives, we Goans were particularly unfortunate to have the Portuguese as colonial masters. They really ought to have confined themselves to trade on the high seas (something they knew well about), because regrettably, they knew relatively little that was significantly worthwhile for the Goans ECONOMICALLY and EDUCATIONALLY then, and as current research evidence indicates, they are the least educated (reference available on request), of all European Union ethnic minority workers currently in the UK. The thought that such people lorded over us for 4.5 centuries, and kept the majority of us so backward economically and educationally, will hopefully make any red-blooded Goan, justifiably, pretty angry but also determined to properly utilise all the many opportunities India has offered to us since 1961. If correctly and wisely utilised, despite the many difficulties currently faced, this could soon make up for the massive seriously long-term economic, educational and infrastructural deficit left behind in Goa by the Portuguese.
[Goanet] GHANTII
Dear Gabriel, It is true that Goa was crime free during Portuguese rule. But racism under them was much more severe than the British! The state was much more oppressive. I find that centuries of Portuguese repression, or rather slavery, should i list: Take the Goan catholic names for example: When did Da Costa, De Cunha, Fernandes or Quatros become more christian than Goan family name like Kakodkar, Shirodkar, Poi or Prabhu? So, Govan Catholicism was not just religious conversions. They destroyed your ancestry and implanted Portuguese ancestry on you. Let me put forth a simple observation, in poor taste, though. It may be relative, because it is in the eye of the beholder. Note that Mangalorean Catholics migrated to the Canara from Goa in the 17th and 18th century. They have not assimilated into the local population, though they live harmoniously with the locals. They have their religion intact, Go to masses on Sundays and other festive days etc. They have preserved their Konkani language, publications, music and Theater. I find Manglorean Catholic girls and women quite attractive, whereas I find Goan catholics distinctively ugly in general. I feel It is due to 450 years of Portuguese slavery. Now one may be politically correct and accuse me of bias. But I feel the Mangalorean catholics had more freedom for generations and it shows on their faces!
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII
Electricity. Water. Phones. They would have come to the villages in good time, increasing the infrastructure maintaining a balance between availaibility and supply, instead of the haphazard growth of supply without increasing the sources of availability, which gave rise to rationing of water and the frequent breakdowns (brownouts and blackouts) of electrical supplies. What the Portuguese gave Goans. There's more to life than electricity, running water, phones, colleges, universities, banks. Basic education - by this I don't mean literacy, but efforts to get everyone to live decently. There might not have been grand roads, but there was access to basic justice. In general, people lived safe. There was no need for bars on windows as was a requirement in cities like Bombay of that time. There were power plants in major cities, but blackouts few and far in between and brownouts non-existent. There were water supplies in the major cities, 24x7 (the same sources of water supplies are still in use). Where there were no bridges, there was river transport in the form of motorised flat-boats or ferries manufactured in Goa which are unique and still in use, now upgraded to have their own ramps (post 1961), besides motor-launches of SANI. The canal system built in Quepem/Chandor/Sanvordem, which few talk about, is still in use today providing possibilities of year-round crops. I believe the farms at Ela were proving grounds for experimental crops like hybrid rice, bananas et al. An international civilian airport at Dabolim, with its own airline TAIP, and its own fleet of aircraft manned by Goan staff. A developed harbour at Marmagoa with a large shipbuilding yard. A powerful radio transmission service (Emissora de Goa) which transmitted Konkani programmes that could be heard as far as the Gulf countries, and as I heard said, also in East Africa. But most of all, cleanliness - clean cities, well laid-out gardens where people could come and relax in the cool of the evenings. Hospitals which were well maintained and clean with a reasonable level of health-service for the major villages of those days. Finally, what the Portuguese also gave Goans, which the Brits did not give the Indians, was full citizenship of their country. This fact alone enabled Goans to assimilate into the various services of the Portuguese govt not only in Goa, but elsewhere in the Portuguese territories, like supreme court judges, heads of departments, etc. Sure, one had to go abroad to get the required qualifications, but given time, Goa would have its own educational systems in place, as it did later on, as the population increased. Goa had its share of poor, but there were Provedorias de Assistencia Publica, Albergues and other institutions to take care of them, in addition to hospitals to take care of lepers and tuberculosis patients. A few indigents used to go from house to house, doing their rounds once a week, but there were no young beggars on the streets as you see now. If I remember correctly, there was an element of free enterprise, which enabled people like Salgaoncars, Dempos, Timblos, Menezes et al to rise high in their business ventures without interference from paper-pushers or red-tape. Equally, there were checks and balances in govt, something which disappeared overnight with the enforcement of Indian-style govt regulations. Radio receiving licences were not required. The requirements for such came post Dec 1961. They were abolished years later (I was overseas by then). Ration cards were unheard of before 1964. Note that Goa got a reasonable good 'phone service only after CHOGM, for obvious reasons, not necessarily to give Goans a good service, but like China of the Olympics, to show what the Indian Govt could do, I suppose, for the occasion. I have tried to put into perspective what many people have not realized. But the fact that India was not prepared to increase funding for development was because Goa was already developed (I believe Prof Nandkumar Kamat had written something on these lines years ago). Gabriel de Figueiredo. --- On Wed, 27/8/08, Ana Maria de souza-Goswami [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Ana Maria de souza-Goswami [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet] GHANTII To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Received: Wednesday, 27 August, 2008, 12:42 AM Hi Dominic, There was no electricity in the villages, no running water, wait endless for public transport. Did the portuguese build a university in goa, did they do anything to better the lives of the goans. Besides Pharmacy College and the Medical college, one had to go to Europe or across the border for eduction. Many were educated in Hubli, Belgaum and Dharwar. Today we have schools, colleges, professional colleges. Also to withdraw money, one had to go to the city to your bank. Today it the remotest village as a bank. Goans, do not criticise what the Indians
Re: [Goanet] GHANTII
Ana Maria wrote: Goans, do not criticise what the Indians and fellow Goans have done to Goa, but criticise what the Portuguese did not do for Goa. Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:21:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabriel de Figueiredo Electricity. Water. Phones. They would have come to the villages in good time, increasing the infrastructure maintaining a balance between availaibility and supply, instead of the haphazard growth of supply without increasing the sources of availability, which gave rise to rationing of water and the frequent breakdowns (brownouts and blackouts) of electrical supplies. Mario observes: Hey, Gabriel, where have you been, man? Haven't heard from you in awhile. I guess you felt the need to wake up and day-dream about what the Portuguese coulda, woulda, shoulda done. Unfortunately, not to disturb your reverie or anything, the fact remains that they did not. Sorry! Gabriel wrote: What the Portuguese gave Goans. There's more to life than electricity, running water, phones, colleges, universities, banks. Basic education - by this I don't mean literacy, but efforts to get everyone to live decently. Mario responds: Hey, Gabriel, how does one live decently in this day and age without electricity, running water, phones, colleges, universities, banks? Did you forgot roads and bridges and FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY? I notice you did not migrate to pristine Mozambique or Angola, but to a civilized country like Australia where they have plenty of electricity, running water, phones, colleges, universities, banks, not to mention roads and bridges, freedom and democracy. Gabriel wrote: Finally, what the Portuguese also gave Goans, which the Brits did not give the Indians, was full citizenship of their country. Mario observes: Why would anyone in India want to be a citizen of what was then a third rate European country? Gabriel wrote: If I remember correctly, there was an element of free enterprise, which enabled people like Salgaoncars, Dempos, Timblos, Menezes et al to rise high in their business ventures without interference from paper-pushers or red-tape. Mario observes: Element is right. You used a good word in element. If I remember correctly the only difference back then was that the paper pushers were white Portuguese or brown Portuguese. Now, instead of an element of free enterprise, Goa has too much free enterprise, based on the squeals we hear on Goanet every day from the anti-Ghanti crowd:-)) Gabriel wrote: Ration cards were unheard of before 1964. Mario observes: So were elections and the rights of free speech and assembly. Gabriel wrote: Note that Goa got a reasonable good 'phone service only after CHOGM, for obvious reasons, not necessarily to give Goans a good service, but like China of the Olympics, to show what the Indian Govt could do, I suppose, for the occasion. Mario observes: Note that the phone service under the Portuguese was a joke and virtually non-existent. Gabriel wrote: I have tried to put into perspective what many people have not realized. But the fact that India was not prepared to increase funding for development was because Goa was already developed. Mario observes: What you have done, Gabriel, is to describe the tired old pro-colonial perspective, where mostly the Christians in Goa were the favored group but still under the thumbs of their white colonial masters. But, as you had to concede above, theey coulda, woulda, shoulda, but did not give Goa electricity, running water, phones, colleges, universities, banks, not to mention roads and bridges, freedom and democracy.
