Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
What a welcome sight to see good old Domnic Fernandes back on Goanet. From this l suppose we can suppose that Domnic has made a good recovery, which is great news. Looking forward to seeing more of his posts. A great writing style, and every post just adds to the greatness of Domnic's Goa!!! Message: 7 Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:38:52 -0400 From: Domnic Fernandes You must be joking when you say there were hardly any thefts during pre-liberation days. Not only there were regular robberies but in North Goa there was a professional gang that lived in caves on the hill between Anjuna and Parra. The head of the gang was Kismonath from Bhatti/Zamblinnim. He was also a murderer.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
You must be joking when you say there were hardly any thefts during pre-liberation days. Not only there were regular robberies but in North Goa there was a professional gang that lived in caves on the hill between Anjuna and Parra. The head of the gang was Kismonath from Bhatti/Zamblinnim. He was also a murderer. These robbers robbed not only Anjuna but also adjoining villages, Mapusa town and far villages like Colvale, Tivim, Asnora, Siolim, Oxel, Calangute, Candolim, Verem, Guirim, Porvorim, Salvador do Mundo, Saligao, Pilerne, etc. How did they know which house to rob? Well, their associates (they had at least one member from each village, including a local food provider,) who were daily laborers, besides performing general work also repaired or stitched houses in March, April and May. While they did house-stitching job, they would take an X-Ray of the whole house from the open roof, including location of a gun, if there was one, and rob houses accordingly. They did try and avoid houses which had a gun. If they robbed such a house, they made sure that they laid their hands on the gun first and then looted the person at gun point. Many of the robberies took place during monsoon season when people take advantage of cool weather and go to sleep early or whenever they locked their house(s) and went away. Large houses were designed with kaslettichim daram (doors with hinges), which were secured from inside at night with an addambo (thick wooden door bar), which made it almost impossible to break in, unlike vateachem dar - door with a protruding round end, which fitted into a round slot in the ground as well as top. The robbers used a paroi (crow bar) to lift a vateachem dar from the ground slot and then made an entry in the house. But this task was difficult for them if the door had an umbro (ridge) outside. The windows of large houses also had kaslettichim zonelam (windows with hinges), which made it difficult for robbers to make an easy entry into a house through them. Every window now has a steel grill. But they had other innovative ideas to break into a house - through the roof tiles. They would begin the job when it rained heavily i.e., they would remove a tile or two, cut the kamb (wooden strip) on which tiles are placed and create enough space so a person could pass through it. They then used baimcho razu (coir rope used to draw water from well), which they tied to a rafter and landed in the house. This is why it was a rule in every house in the past to bring baimcho razu inside before going to sleep. Once a robber was inside, he opened a door or a window and let other partners in the house and then voilà - the robbery took place. Since there was no electricity, the head of the family usually kept a match box handy next to his/her pillow; those who could afford kept a battery torch. The first thing robbers did was to look for the match box or torch and take it away. Every year, we lost at least one dog. Why? Because our dogs chased robbers at night whenever they climbed down or up the hill; so, they poisoned them. Thank God they never robbed our house. They also robbed people at night dressed as policemen. They would knock on the door and ask people to open the door for them in the name of one of the Mapusa police officers. Their den was raided by Portuguese soldiers by following a person (name withheld) who prepared food for them at home and carried it to their den on the hill in a basket. Kismonath as well as his associate, food carrier, were two of many prisoners who were set free by the Indian army when they liberated Goa. The food carrier was one of the guys who claimed to be a freedom fighter and received government grant until he died two years ago! They say: To catch a thief, you must set a thief. Although Kismonath walked free from Mapusa prison, based on his past record and people's feedback, he was singled out by the police as a notorious guy and was assigned to monitor bad activities, including thievery in Anjuna. Before that, they made sure that they weakened his hands by damaging tendons. He was required to report to Mapusa police station every alternate day. As far as robbing is concerned, we say in Konkani: Chorunchi itchea aslear kitlei upai ghetlear, chor chorunk zai zalear chortoloch. (No matter how strict measures you take, if a robber intends to rob, he will anyhow.) The only good thing during the Portuguese regime was that when one was caught and imprisoned, he was punished so severely that he would never want to commit theft again. But professional robbers took their chances and carried on with their activities. It's like Saudi Arabia. If one is caught with drugs, he/she is beheaded. Yet, there are some who take chances! Even now locals are hand in gloves with bhaile in thefts and murders. You will realize this if you recall the good old Konkani saying: Bhitorlo
Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
I was a very young girl at the time and cannot say much except that I was getting ready to go to school early in the morning and we could hear the sound of bomb blasts and people saying the Indian troops have invaded Goa. It was all very exciting. Nobody knew the effect. The next thing we knew is that the army had marched into the shops stocking watches, perfumes etc. and just collected them in bags and walked off. Slowly but surely, we were weaned off Dutch cheese, chocolates and all the good things we were used to. We also missed the handsome Portuguese soldiers wishing us bon dia on our way to school. However, my seniors at school were excited that they did not have to go to Bombay to answer their SSC exam paper, because soon after that, the SSC exams were conducted in Goa itself. What was wonderful about those pre-invasion (if I can be excused for saying that) days was that there were hardly any thefts. The large houses were designed with several doors and windows (without grills) and very often with just one or two old inmates. There were no bhaileto break into the homes and rob us. Now even some of the Goan village guys have resorted to thieving. Goa has certainly achieved a lot by way of education, infrastructure, but we have lost a lot also culturally. Bernice Pereira Love Cricket? Check out live scores, photos, video highlights and more. Click here http://cricket.yahoo.com
[Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
I have been keenly following the debate on the Goanet about Goan freedom fighters. Since it is a delicate subject, I thought it would be prudent on my part to remain silent and not to add spice to it. But then I have had urge to write something about it, so here I am. To understand Goa's freedom fighters we ought to start with geography of Goa . However much I may dislike to use these words, I have somehow to use them i.e. Velhas Conquistas and Novas Conquistas.Velhas C are four and half centuries old and Novas C are only two centuries old , roughly about the same time the British were in the rest of India. Let us face it. Ultimately, it is the personnel of the Indian armed forces that liberated Goa from the Salazarist administration. The freedom fithters of Novas C , to the best of my knowledge were not so effective against the colonial stranglehold of Goa. There is no record of any weakening of the Portuguese administration as a result of the activities of these freedom fighters. And yet, in the Govt. of Goa's Roll Call of Honour these fighters are found in great abundance. Could the Govt. please publish the name of these fighters and especially their ages. The freedom fighters of Velhas C. normally came from elite background and it appears that they were more interested in some political powers being devolved into their hands only. I have yet, to come across a single instance with these fighters demanding from the Portuguese Govt. full franchise for the illiterate Catholic masses . The power to vote during the Portuguese rule was confined only to the literate classes. Antonio
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
it appears that they were more interested in some political powers being devolved into their hands only. As I thought. Lino Leitão's The Gift of the Holy Cross puts this perception very well, though in relation with Indo-Goan politics, (pp 143-146). Mario, a character in the book who has come from Goa to Bombay (in the 1950s), perceives what real politics Indian-style is all about - a sham to hoodwink the poor masses. Once they (politicians) are in the legislature ... drink Dimple and Royal Salute whiskie ... live in mansions ... These are the people who have inherited India from the British. They preach Gandhian doctrines and spout socilaist slogans while the Indian masses sleep in the gutters he says to Barbosa, a Bombay-Goan politician eager to request Nehru to get the Portuguese out of Goa but has no plans beyond this. Perhaps Lino had Dr.Gaitonde in mind when he cast the character of Edmundo Barbosa. The power to vote during the Portuguese rule was confined only to the literate classes. Thank you Antonio, for that statement. It says all. Gabriel. - Original Message From: Antonio Menezes ac.mene...@gmail.com To: goanet goa...@goanet.org Sent: Thursday, 2 July, 2009 5:10:00 PM Subject: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail
[Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
Thank you Antonio Menezas for reiterating my point of view that Goa was freed by the Indian Armed forces and not by our pseudo- freedom fighters of Goa. I wrote this a few days ago and I got a scathing letter from Victor Rangel-Ribeiro that it was our Goan Freedom Fighters that liberated Goa. Also like Antonio Menezes I would like to know the ages of these of these so called freedom fighters and blow by blow account of their heroics that ousted the Portuguese. Regards Ignatius Fernandes. _ Share your photos with Windows Live Photos – Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
So on the dot Ignatius. It would be interesting to find out what happened during the transition, where were the people, what happened. I have not read any history/documentary accounts yet but did speak to some people. In talking to folks who lived on the front lines (that is around the airport, Dabolim), a slightly different picture emerges. There were no freedom fighters around (they were on the run and hiding): the Portuguese were on the run as well and were prepared. There was confusion and mistrust .There was some looting. Then there were blasts, and with uncertainty, fellow Goans opened their homes to other Goans, sometimes to Portuguese and hid them. There were families sheltered during the three day transition. There were some abandoned homes. Some people managed to get on to the last plane out of Dabolim, Lisbon-bound. My impressions from the conversations is, the Indians forced their way into Goa; they were not welcome and no one celebrated! There was no sigh of relief. The freedom fighters surfaced after it was announced Goa was undre Endia. But the question is: were they really free? Take a look around Goa of today!!!To my Goan mind, freedom is a four letter F word with three more for decorations. The impression one has from the two religious communities today is: the Catholics don't give a hoot to what happened then (it was fate, right) while the Hindoos it appears regret what happened. Surprisingly, they say Goa under Endia is horrible (speak to some old timers). Like another poster would argue, the change had little impact on our lives today. I doubt; it had a lasting impact. Our psyche is fashioned by the colonial rule, who were are culturally, socially: Latin! Waz talking to another bro from a P-colony during the recent Confederation Cup match between Brazil-US: he said we from the P-colonies have a different mind set, a different mental make up and it comes to the fore on the football field. When loosing, we panic for example: remember any old Brazil games. Ofcourse, most of Brazil play in Europe and play a different football today (so he thinks they fought back). Trust there were a few true freedom fighters who were really the intellectuals. They fashioned the thinking. The rest were hangers-on. In my view, the intellectuals mis-judged the Goan capacity for freedom. Its really a dirty word and it takes a certain maturity to be free. Unfortunately, freedom is not for us Goans. Apparently, there is another story of the changing of guard: it was a Malyalee who ordered the army into Goi while Nehru was opposed to using the army/force. Best regards from Carwar, the fish-curry capital of the world. (Note, before some history-reader b**r writes me, this is all oral hear-say/impression). On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 1:03 PM, ignatius fernandesiggy.fernan...@hotmail.co.uk wrote: Thank you Antonio Menezas for reiterating my point of view that Goa was freed by the Indian Armed forces and not by our pseudo- freedom fighters of Goa. I wrote this a few days ago and I got a scathing letter from Victor Rangel-Ribeiro that it was our Goan Freedom Fighters that liberated Goa. Also like Antonio Menezes I would like to know the ages of these of these so called freedom fighters and blow by blow account of their heroics that ousted the Portuguese. Regards Ignatius Fernandes.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
Dear Ignatius, Please reread my reply to you. You call it scathing; it was not meant to hurt your feelings, and if it did, please accept my apologies. But now you go further and misrepresent what I said. Where have I claimed that it was our freedom fighters that liberated Goa? Goan freedom fighters were active in and outside Goa for decades before the Indian Army finally moved in and chased the Portuguese out. May I point out, for the benefit of such individuals as believe that the world came to an end in 1961, that Goa had freedom fighters long before the term was even coined. My maternal grandfather, Hipolito Caetano PInto, was one such; and my mother's maternal uncle, the famous lawyer Mariano Vaz of Anjuna, was another. Both were hounded by the Portuguese in the 1890s for their nationalist views. In fact, they were accused of being complicit in the sepoy mutiny and Rane rebellion of 1895 and eventually had to flee to Bombay, in fear for their lives. You, and others like you, have great faith in the benign nature of Portuguese rule. Perhaps this is because you were born too late to have experienced its excesses. Some of us were not as lucky as you; our memories go back a very long way. Very best regards, Victor --- On Thu, 7/2/09, ignatius fernandes iggy.fernan...@hotmail.co.uk wrote: From: ignatius fernandes iggy.fernan...@hotmail.co.uk Subject: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters To: goanet@lists.goanet.org goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 1:03 PM Thank you Antonio Menezas for reiterating my point of view that Goa was freed by the Indian Armed forces and not by our pseudo- freedom fighters of Goa. I wrote this a few days ago and I got a scathing letter from Victor Rangel-Ribeiro that it was our Goan Freedom Fighters that liberated Goa. Also like Antonio Menezes I would like to know the ages of these of these so called freedom fighters and blow by blow account of their heroics that ousted the Portuguese. Regards Ignatius Fernandes. _ Share your photos with Windows Live Photos – Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 16:15:09 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com response to the voice of reason on GoaNet aka Missao Zalem: Bringing Mario back to his favourite topic - The Lancet, Volume 364, Issue 9448, Pages 1857-1864 available at http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673604174412/fulltext Mario observes: Having confirmed that he was unable to understand the difference between democratic elections in Goa since 1961 and in 1961 and in 1962 we now see Jose jump to another topic that he understands even less. He chooses to regale us with a link to an ancient report in Lancet DATED OCTOBER 29, 2004, titled, Mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: cluster sample survey The researchers who conducted this learned survey breathlessly report their findings that more people died after the invasion of Iraq than before. Brilliant. For example we learn, The risk of death was estimated to be 2·5-fold (95% CI 1·6—4·2) higher after the invasion when compared with the preinvasion period. Brilliant. And, The major causes of death before the invasion were myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular accidents, and other chronic disorders whereas after the invasion violence was the primary cause of death. Brilliant. And, Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters, and were mainly attributed to coalition forces. Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children. Oh no! Those coalition forces were homicidal maniacs when compared to the Saddam regime, targeting the same women and children they had come to liberate! This research study would be equivalent to a serious research study telling us that the risk of death in Hiroshima and Nagasaki increased ten-thousand-fold or more after they were nuked when compared with the prenuking period, and that most of the deaths were due to the citizens being torn apart by bomb fragments and collapsing debris and incineration and nuclear radiation and not by myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular accidents, and other chronic disorders. Or, a research study telling us that women's waistlines increase during pregnancy when compared to before they got pregnant, and that the increase was mainly attributed to the sperm donor and the pregnancy and not due to over-eating. The brilliant researchers from Lancet do not tell us who exactly was attributing the violent deaths to coalition forces, who were under strict orders to try and avoid civilian casualties and were prosecuted, tried and convicted if found to be targeting civilians. There were no such restrictions on Al Qaeda and the Sunni and Shia sectarian extremists who started attacking each other after the fall of the Saddam regime instead of joining forces to rebuild the country having been freed from brutal dictatorial oppression by the previous regime. The researchers also insinuate that coalition forces were targeting women and children, which tells us more about the personal anti-liberation political bias of the researchers than it does about the facts. Finally, deep within the report, we see the following disclaimer, Our results need further verification and should lead to changes to reduce non-combatant deaths from air strikes. Indeed. Somehow, no one told the brilliant and perspicacious researchers from Lancet that the coalition forces were actually engaged in trying to stop the violence that erupted after the fall of the Saddam regime. I hope their further verification ascertained that, but I'm not holding my breath. Finally, someone needs to inform Jose that those anti-liberation insurgents he sympathized with were unable to prevent Iraq from becoming a free and democratic republic, now engaged in solidifing their nascent democracy.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Mario Goveia wrote: [1] What about since 1961 did you fail to understand, or did you miss the fact that December 1961 is when Goa went from a colonial dictatorship to becoming part of the Indian democracy? Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:32:49 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com The above quoted speak for themselves. What I really fail to understand is your 'faulty intelligence'. Mario responds: I see you are still unable to understand the difference between democratic elections in Goa since 1961 and in 1961 and in 1962, when you wrote in http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-June/179225.html, If you would recheck the 'intelligence', you will note that there were NO elections in 1961 or in 1962 but in late 1963. Somehow, YOUR intelligence [NOT!] expected elections in Goa in 1961 when the liberation from the previous colonial dictatorship started in late December of 1961. YOUR intelligence [NOT!] also failed to grasp what Fred Noronha wrote in http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-June/179233.html, Debating for the sake of debate, weren't panchayat elections held in 1962? I hope you will cease and desist from continuing to embarrass yourself.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
response to the voice of reason on GoaNet aka Missao Zalem: Bringing Mario back to his favourite topic - Mario, I do not expect that you will cease and desist from continuing to embarrass yourself. And ..have you found the fugetio yet? I know there are many Goveian ways to explain away the stats in the following article (projected as they are) The Lancet, Volume 364, Issue 9448, Pages 1857-1864 available at http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673604174412/fulltext Taking a summer break from responding to Gouvein nonsense. jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Mario Goveia wrote: I could have sworn that all those people lining up across Goa to vote in local, state and federal elections since 1961 were all Goans:-)) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:09:21 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com You could have sworn a lot of things based on your customary 'faulty intelligence'. It is perhaps that very same faulty intelligence which made you use the phrase since 1961. If you would recheck the 'intelligence', you will note that there were NO elections in 1961 or in 1962 but in late 1963. But how does one convince the 'only voice of reason and truth on GoaNet' of this very basic truth? Mario responds: Jose, To begin with, in a previous post you wanted us to, Duck the question: Were Goans given the choice to autonomously decide their future? whereas it was only since the Portuguese were kicked out in 1961 that Goans were really given the choice to autonomously decide their future which had previously been hijacked and suppressed by their Portuguese colonial masters. Regarding your other comments shown above, where did you see me write that there were elections IN 1961 or 1962? What about since 1961 did you fail to understand, or did you miss the fact that December 1961 is when Goa went from a colonial dictatorship to becoming part of the Indian democracy?
Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
Bernado Colaco wrote: Hi Jose, What is not pure waste of time for you? Tentative maratization of Goa!. Tibet is an autonomous region of China. The Dalai Lama wants more autonomy. Please discuss Goa issues on Goa net. Don't go geometric. == My dear Bernado, Let me try 'unconvolute' your post and attempt to respond. 1: Reading a good book is NOT pure waste of time for me. 2: Tentative (uncertain) maratization of Goa vs Settled chow-meinification of Tibet? 3: Autonomy and Tibet in the same sentence (sans qualification) is highly 'oxygenated moronism' 4: I was discussing Goa on Goanet, when Bernado came up with a blah blah blah link about Nehru and brought the topic of China invading India on the table. Now, suddenly, bernado wants to play 'Peking Duck'! 5: My choice is between my linear geometry and your obfuscated trignometry. jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Mario Goveia wrote: [1] I could have sworn that all those people lining up across Goa to vote in local, state and federal elections since 1961 were all Goans:-)) Mario Goveia wrote: [1] What about since 1961 did you fail to understand, or did you miss the fact that December 1961 is when Goa went from a colonial dictatorship to becoming part of the Indian democracy? Dear Mario, The above quoted speak for themselves. What I really fail to understand is your 'faulty intelligence'. BTW: did ya find them yet? Unless you 'fail to understand' the meaning of 'them' (;-) OK now Mario please give me your well rehearsed spiel. jc
[Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
Doutor Jose, Before you continue on your geometric trip take a look at this extensive letter by Bruto da Costa to Nehru. It is written in English. http://www.supergoa.com/pt/read/news_recorte.asp?c_news=245 BTW Tibet is an autonomous region. Goa is occupied without any autonomy. BC When someone makes a charge - as one made in that forums/blah_blah_blah link you posted, the only way I will believe the stuff therein, IS when the stuff is corroborated. Otherwise, anybody will write anything about anybody and ask that person to prove the negative. It is like asking someone in court (albeit the court of public opinion): Prove that you have stopped beating your wife! Would you be able to provide a link to that effect?
Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
2009/6/29 Bernado Colaco wrote: Before you continue on your geometric trip take a look at this extensive letter by Bruto da Costa to Nehru. It is written in English. http://www.supergoa.com/pt/read/news_recorte.asp?c_news=245 BTW Tibet is an autonomous region. Goa is occupied without any autonomy. Dear Bernado, I have read the Bruto da Costa letter. I have a copy on file. If I may add, it was long and had no effect on Goa's future. Don't even know if anyone read it. In that manner - It was a pure waste of time. Good ..now that you have decided to write about Tibet ...let's stick to it But only .IF it is not unsafe for you to do so. If it is unsafe for you to do so .Let's beat up on His Eminence FN or on those 'Baratis'. Let us know. Tibet is autonomous hanh? Is that why the Dalai Lama is calling (at least) for autonomy? Unless .these is a Macanese meaning for autonomy different from the English meaning. How many million Chinese have been actively repositioned in Tibet over the past 2 decades alone? Does China get all very happy when other countries receive the Dalai Lama (officially)? Do you get to read about this - or are certain news-sites blocked out for you? jc
[Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 06:19:20 + (GMT) From: Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk Goa is occupied without any autonomy. Mario observes: It looks like the news is not getting through to wherever Bernardo lives:-))
[Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
Hi Jose, What is not pure waste of time for you? Tentative maratization of Goa!. Tibet is an autonomous region of China. The Dalai Lama wants more autonomy. Please discuss Goa issues on Goa net. Don't go geometric. BC Dear Bernado, I have read the Bruto da Costa letter. I have a copy on file. If I may add, it was long and had no effect on Goa's future. Don't even know if anyone read it. In that manner - It was a pure waste of time. Good ..now that you have decided to write about Tibet ...let's stick to it But only .IF it is not unsafe for you to do so. If it is unsafe for you to do so .Let's beat up on
Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
Mario, blame it on the Bamboo Curtain. However, the curtain is of no concern to Bernado who has his Portuguese passport just in case China decides to do a Tianmen on the peaceable card-playing population of Macau. Roland. On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Mario Goveiamgov...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 06:19:20 + (GMT) From: Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk Goa is occupied without any autonomy. Mario observes: It looks like the news is not getting through to wherever Bernardo lives:-))
[Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
Dears, Whatever jc writes is always the truth. Why does jc not produce counter information to the link I produced. Even the terror actions of Azad Gomantak are false according to this person. jc should worry more about the Raj Bhavan colonial rule in Goa rather than Tibet. BC Dears, I wonder when Bernado will stop wasting his time on these 'cuckoo' hate sites. I hope you remember BC that anybody can write anything about anybody else .under pseudonyms. They do not need proof to write junk. Could they not write junk about you and me on those sites? How will you or I be able to defend ourselves (effectively) against junk?
Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
Bernado Colaco wrote: [1] Why does jc not produce counter information to the link I produced. [2] Even the terror actions of Azad Gomantak are false according to this person. [3] jc should worry more about the Raj Bhavan colonial rule in Goa rather than Tibet. Dear Bernado, When someone makes a charge - as one made in that forums/blah_blah_blah link you posted, the only way I will believe the stuff therein, IS when the stuff is corroborated. Otherwise, anybody will write anything about anybody and ask that person to prove the negative. It is like asking someone in court (albeit the court of public opinion): Prove that you have stopped beating your wife! Would you be able to provide a link to that effect? I am not sure if you did comprehend what I wrote about the accusations against the Azad Gomantak Dal. I am not saying that the Dal members were innocent. All I am saying is that (a) one needs solid proof to believe (b) One does not need undocumented stories to understand that the Azad Gomantak Dal conducted violent acts against civilian Goans esp WHEN the members themselves have acknowledged their violent actions as per the Heraldo. I brought up Tibet because you brought up the Chinese invasion (of India). Now that you are Chinese, (Macau is Chinese, right) I thought you were in the best position to advise us about the Chinese invasion of Tibet. May be you are, May be you are not; Or ...you'd rather talk bad just about India., right? I suggest that IF you wish to discuss about recent Invasions .in that region You discuss ALL the invasions. As I said in a previous post: If you are going to wash clothes at the laundromat, Wash ALL the dirty linen in public. Not just selective ones. Only folks with an agenda or those who are not too collective, do that. jc Earlier BC wrote on 2009/6/27 http://www.jatland.com/forums/blah_blah_blah Please read the link about your friend nehru. Do you know why china invaded bharat?
[Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Jose Colaco: Are we saying that Nehru too was a 'Salazar' of sorts? Wasn't he the champion of autonomy and self-determination along with Nasser and Sukarno and Tito (all maha-dictators in their own rights) ? Response: It is a million dollar question whether Goa would have been granted special status had Nehru lived longer. Nehru was a true democrat and respected the unique culture of Goa. That is why, Goa was made into a Union Territory and centrally administered from Delhi. However, the Indo-China war of 1962 came as a big blow to Nehru and virtually crippled him. Thereafter, he was a sick man and died soon after in 1964. I personally believe having read reports of that time (1961) that Nehru would have extended Article 371 to Goa had he lived longer. However, surprisingly, I have not come across reports about goans of that time demanding special status for Goa. Perhaps I may be missing something. Regards, Marshall
[Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
http://www.jatland.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9164.html MM should stick to defending Christians in the sub continent he does this very well. Goa had asked for statehood to be away from the clutches of delhi. Please read the link about your friend nehru. Do you know why china invaded bharat? BC It is a million dollar question whether Goa would have been granted special status had Nehru lived longer. Nehru was a true democrat and respected the unique culture of Goa. That is why, Goa was made into a Union Territory and centrally administered from Delhi. However, the Indo-China war of 1962 came as a big blow to Nehru and virtually crippled him. Thereafter, he was a sick man and died soon after in 1964.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters - Only one
Actually, according to one independent source posted on Goanet as just another version of history, the lone Goan patriot is a Chinese national quite happily serving under the communist dictatorial special administrative control of the government of China. Everybody else is a traitor, and ironically, a communist as well. Cheers, Santosh --- On Thu, 6/25/09, J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com wrote: How could they come to liberate Goans and treat them in such a way? especially (what I understand to be) a gentle and kind Goan like Chico Monteiro? I remain surprised (or perhaps I should not be) that a good man like Pde Chico does not feature prominently in the writings of ostensibly fair-minded people in the Goa press or on Goanet. 2009/6/25 Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk: I agree that PIDE was rough specially in Portugal, but you must also agree that the regime post 61 in Goa also acted in the same manner. Unfortunately Fr. Chico was the only Goan freedom fighter to have held the candle alone. Unlike the so called nameless freedom fighters that some is trying to eulogise on GN, Fr. Chico Goa's only true Freedom Fighter worked for the benefit of Goan youth.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters - Only one
I do plan on using Fredrick's material for sunday entertainment: the web-site belonging to Mascarenhas, the casino comic's co-agitator, and admirer of Pope Michael. 'Global paranoia' is a medical term, and it contrasts with the 'encapsulated' form. The globe certainly appears to have offered Mascarenhas a large stage for his allencompassed fears. The pattern is not uncommon and, very sadly, the likes of Sukarno, Nasser and Ahmadinajad prevail, just too often. eric. --- On Thu, 6/25/09, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote Actually, according to one independent source posted on Goanet as just another version of history, the lone Goan patriot is a Chinese national quite happily serving under the communist dictatorial special administrative control of the government of China. Everybody else is a traitor, and ironically, a communist as well.
[Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters - Only one
Hello Doutor Jose, I agree that PIDE was rough specially in Portugal, but you must also agree that the regime post 61 in Goa also acted in the same manner. Unfortunately Fr. Chico was the only Goan freedom fighter to have held the candle alone. Unlike the so called nameless freedom fighters that some is trying to eulogise on GN, Fr. Chico Goa's only true Freedom Fighter worked for the benefit of Goan youth. The rest of Goan intellectuals were sacred of the fascist democracy. Goans are still scared of bharat repercussions if they dissent. Goanet please hold a poll. Please tell us about the Goan Catholics losing jobs at GMC just after the events of 61. Best wishes BC Whatever harm the goons of the Azad Gomantak Dal may have done to Goa's civil society, it did not provide justification for the suppressive actions by the PIDE against Goan intellectuals and other members of Goan society. Would you agree with me ? BTW: I could not tell you if ALL the pre-1961Goan intellectuals were innocent or not. I will only say that - unless they were found guilty in a just court of law, they are presumed innocent. There are numerous 'charges' and accusations. Unless they have been proven or the criminal acts self-accepted, I suggest that we consider the folk innocent. Talking about violent acts (or what Mario Goveia would calls acts of terror) there are a few chaps who have proudly claimed ownership of those acts, and have been rewarded for them.( I will locate the link and post it another time)
[Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters
There’s more than one order of freedom fighters: Those who brave it all the way to the firing squad; others who make a living facing firecrackers or igniting them, and a few who survived by fleeing the region at the sound of the first gornal (a Goan WMD). Dom Martin All is not lost! Click now for professional data recovery. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTLygJBx5vf8Q3Ip75iSACEHrMqcHz1ngg78ur6TWmkvK9kwtYmLuA/
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters - Only one
Dear Bernado, Except for the brief period before and after the 1967 Opinion Poll, I am not aware of any PIDEesque 'roughing up' of Goans post-1961. Sure there is a serious doubt whether Norman Dantas' death was by pure accident, and the Goa journos have behaved (by and large) like wooses and lackeys - but the topic at hand is NOT post-1961 Goa but pre-1961 Goa. When I joined the Lar (a number of years after Pde Chico Monteiro had 'left' it), I did notice that my seniors at the Lar were in awe of him. On a number of occasions I heard them say how good a man he was and how upset they were at his treatment. I never met the man - but Dom Martins' script saddened me immensely. How could they come to liberate Goans and treat them in such a way? especially (what I understand to be) a gentle and kind Goan like Chico Monteiro? I remain surprised (or perhaps I should not be) that a good man like Pde Chico does not feature prominently in the writings of ostensibly fair-minded people in the Goa press or on Goanet. BTW: I am unable to tell you much about 'about the Goan Catholics losing jobs at GMC just after the events of 61'. First of all, there was No GMC just after the events of '61'. It was the Escola Medica. Secondly, I was still in school in Poona in 1961. So, I would not know for sure. I did however happen to meet and get to know (very well) Dr. Rodrigues (Aires' father) in Ribandar. He was running the Emergency Room, and I was a second year MBBS student doing my rotation in Ribandar when I first met him. A very decent and hard working man, Dr. Rodrigues. I did not hear of any dismissals from the Escola Medica group, but I did get the feeling that the Portuguese speaking Escola graduates were suppressed. BTW: It is good that we are (now) able to discuss these things openly, and shed some of the hypocrisy some of us are up to. jc 2009/6/25 Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk: I agree that PIDE was rough specially in Portugal, but you must also agree that the regime post 61 in Goa also acted in the same manner. Unfortunately Fr. Chico was the only Goan freedom fighter to have held the candle alone. Unlike the so called nameless freedom fighters that some is trying to eulogise on GN, Fr. Chico Goa's only true Freedom Fighter worked for the benefit of Goan youth. The rest of Goan intellectuals were sacred of the fascist democracy. Goans are still scared of bharat repercussions if they dissent. Goanet please hold a poll. Please tell us about the Goan Catholics losing jobs at GMC just after the events of 61. Best wishes BC
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Talking of elections, how was the Assembleia Legislativa that Goa had pre-1961, elected? Ditto with deputados who were elected to the Portuguese Parliament? I am not seeking silly answers (by likes of many voices of reason), but an answer to a serious question. Perhaps Teotonio would or Antonio would care to answer. Thanks. Gabriel. - Original Message From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009 12:09:21 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters Dear Mario, You could have sworn a lot of things based on your customary 'faulty intelligence'. It is perhaps that very same faulty intelligence which made you use the phrase since 1961. If you would recheck the 'intelligence', you will note that there were NO elections in 1961 or in 1962 but in late 1963. But how does one convince the 'only voice of reason and truth on GoaNet' of this very basic truth? jc == 2009/6/23 Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net:Mario responds: I could have sworn that all those people lining up across Goa to vote in local, state and federal elections since 1961 were all Goans:-)) Perhaps they were Ghantis and Bhailles dressed to look like Goans:-)) Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail
[Goanet] Goa's Freedom fighters
Doutor Jose, First of all Ich Nicht Salazarist. Secondly how much freedom of speech are you talking about? You mean the terror actions of tha Azad Gomantak Dal against a legitimate sovereign government (bharat recognised the Estado India Portuguesa) as OK for freedom of speech? Further those intellectuals you are talking about were they all innocent? What did Bharat do to Fr. Chico Monteiro for defying their rule. Their rule is democractic innit? Clearly Goans have not reacted to the actions of 61 don't you think they would also face PIDE type actions from the bharat CID? Are you not aware that many Goans were chased, letters censored etc post 61! The confiscation of Evacuee Property how democratic is it? Why was it confiscated in the first place? What happened to the Vaz lad during the Concani actions. We are living in a liberated democratic society! BC Dear Bernado, While I agree with you that pre-1961Goa was run mainly by Goans and that there was the 'rule of law', I doubt that you could convincingly argue that the law at the time was just. For, it cannot be that any law that suppresses free speech is just. I do not refer here to speech meant to incite violence, or hate speech. I refer specifically to honest disagreement with the government. This had nothing to do with the hundreds of very honest Goan civil servants who provided honest service to Goans, nor to the benevolent and courageous former Governor of Goa, Vassalo da Silva. I refer to the secret police aka PIDE who were (as expected of secret police) stupid (or brainwashed) to believe that fear and suppression of people and their honest views works.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Debating for the sake of debate, weren't panchayat elections held in 1962? FN 2009/6/24 J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com Dear Mario, You could have sworn a lot of things based on your customary 'faulty intelligence'. It is perhaps that very same faulty intelligence which made you use the phrase since 1961. If you would recheck the 'intelligence', you will note that there were NO elections in 1961 or in 1962 but in late 1963. -- FN * http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com http://twitter.com/fn M +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490 http://fredericknoronha.multiply.com/ http://goa1556.goa-india.org A career is a job that has gone on too long. - Jeff MacNelly
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
As a follow-up, when was universal adult franchise extended to Goa? And what were the qualifications needed to be a voter in earlier times? FN 2009/6/24 Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au Talking of elections, how was the Assembleia Legislativa that Goa had pre-1961, elected? Ditto with deputados who were elected to the Portuguese Parliament? I am not seeking silly answers (by likes of many voices of reason), but an answer to a serious question. Perhaps Teotonio would or Antonio would care to answer.
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom fighters
Dear Bernado, Whatever harm the goons of the Azad Gomantak Dal may have done to Goa's civil society, it did not provide justification for the suppressive actions by the PIDE against Goan intellectuals and other members of Goan society. Would you agree with me ? BTW: I could not tell you if ALL the pre-1961Goan intellectuals were innocent or not. I will only say that - unless they were found guilty in a just court of law, they are presumed innocent. There are numerous 'charges' and accusations. Unless they have been proven or the criminal acts self-accepted, I suggest that we consider the folk innocent. Talking about violent acts (or what Mario Goveia would calls acts of terror) there are a few chaps who have proudly claimed ownership of those acts, and have been rewarded for them.( I will locate the link and post it another time) About Fr. Chico Monteiro please see here. http://www.colaco.net/1/chico.htm Livia de Abreu Noronha's One man's meat is another man's poison: http://www.colaco.net/4/GoaLib18.htm 3 authors: A Goan village circa 1961: http://www.colaco.net/1/Circa1961.htm Alfredo de Mello's Inquisition: http://www.colaco.net/1/InquiForeword.htm Godfrey Gonsalves' : Inquisition distorted: http://www.colaco.net/1/GGinquisitionLies.htm sincerely jc Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Doutor Jose, First of all Ich Nicht Salazarist. Secondly how much freedom of speech are you talking about? You mean the terror actions of tha Azad Gomantak Dal against a legitimate sovereign government (bharat recognised the Estado India Portuguesa) as OK for freedom of speech? Further those intellectuals you are talking about were they all innocent? What did Bharat do to Fr. Chico Monteiro for defying their rule. Their rule is democractic innit? Clearly Goans have not reacted to the actions of 61 don't you think they would also face PIDE type actions from the bharat CID? Are you not aware that many Goans were chased, letters censored etc post 61! The confiscation of Evacuee Property how democratic is it? Why was it confiscated in the first place? What happened to the Vaz lad during the Concani actions. We are living in a liberated democratic society! BC
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Gabriel, Rico... The one who could give a categoric answer to the querry: Mário Cabral e Sá. I have lost details, although a number of my cousins, co-villagers were members of the conselho, on off... About freedom fighters, I, I will right soon.. AT Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:05:22 +0530 From: fredericknoro...@gmail.com To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters As a follow-up, when was universal adult franchise extended to Goa? And what were the qualifications needed to be a voter in earlier times? FN 2009/6/24 Gabriel de Figueiredo gdefigueir...@yahoo.com.au Talking of elections, how was the Assembleia Legislativa that Goa had pre-1961, elected? Ditto with deputados who were elected to the Portuguese Parliament? I am not seeking silly answers (by likes of many voices of reason), but an answer to a serious question. Perhaps Teotonio would or Antonio would care to answer. _ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out! http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
[Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Hi Vic, All contributing for the good of Goa are Goans. Vassalo e Silva was Goa's best governor. Unlike your bharati brotherhood living at Cabo who have ripped apart this palace of its artefacts. Imagine these chappies formerly living in a zoparpathi now living in a palace. What is the contribution of these current neocolonial Governors to Goa? BC Dear Bernardo, Surely your post deserves to be taken note of by future history books! Gen. Vassalo e Silva was a Goan? Why didn't you tell us this earlier? And how about all the governors who preceded him, were they Goans too? Did you have any particular favourites among them, that you'd recommend to us as models to follow? Regards,
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom fighters
This is a continuation of my response of yesterday to Bernado http://www.colaco.net/1/India-ter.htm This is the link I promised ... (I stand corrected if I am wrong but I believe that Bernado is most likely the XV (or xacu...@hotmail.com) who is referred to in the text of this article) Here is the entire article - including a list of individuals and the Acts of civilian violence in Goa, they claimed to have participated in . as per their own CVs published in O Heraldo, Panjim Goa, June 18, 2002 http://www.colaco.net/1/India-ter.htm jc SAY NO TO ANY FORM OF VIOLENCE == yesterday from me .. Dear Bernado, Whatever harm the goons of the Azad Gomantak Dal may have done to Goa's civil society, it did not provide justification for the suppressive actions by the PIDE against Goan intellectuals and other members of Goan society. Would you agree with me ? (...) Talking about violent acts (or what Mario Goveia would calls acts of terror) there are a few chaps who have proudly claimed ownership of those acts, and have been rewarded for them.( I will locate the link and post it another time) jc
[Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Tumultuous moments for a few rascal traitors of Goa. Goa was run by Goans and had rule of law. Wonder if there is any today? BC
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Tumultuous moments for a few rascal traitors of Goa. Goa was run by Goans and had rule of law. Wonder if there is any today? Dear Bernado, While I agree with you that pre-1961Goa was run mainly by Goans and that there was the 'rule of law', I doubt that you could convincingly argue that the law at the time was just. For, it cannot be that any law that suppresses free speech is just. I do not refer here to speech meant to incite violence, or hate speech. I refer specifically to honest disagreement with the government. This had nothing to do with the hundreds of very honest Goan civil servants who provided honest service to Goans, nor to the benevolent and courageous former Governor of Goa, Vassalo da Silva. I refer to the secret police aka PIDE who were (as expected of secret police) stupid (or brainwashed) to believe that fear and suppression of people and their honest views works. It is my understanding that there were a number of educated Goans who were quite restless at the state of affairs. Intellectual individuals are like that. They were like that in Goa, they were like that in Portugal. They both wanted the government out. It happened to be the Salazar government. It got kicked out from both places. Both peoples had suffered enough under Salazar. It is worth accepting that in the midst of any organisation and/or movement, there are opportunists. The intellectuals are not very good at identifying these self-serving con-artists. The intellectuals, after all, are idealists and dreamers. They know little about intrigue and chicanery. Every single group of idealists gets hijacked by the con-artists. That, I submit, happened in and to Goa wsf to the Freedom Movement. Some honest folks might accept it but I believe that many among us may not like to accept itor be in denial. They may not even accept that Goa today is very corrupt and filthy. It is worth viewing (and reviewing) some of the many pictures that Rajan Parrikar and JoeGoaUK send out. The expected joke is - that the concretisers turn around and blame the Goans for not resisting this mess, and for re-voting the goons back into power. Yes indeed! Tie a man's hands and then blame him for not preventing the robbery in the store. Give him a choice between a chappal and a chapati, and then blame him for choosing the chapati. Duck the question: Were Goans given the choice to autonomously decide their future? That and the filth and deterioration that follwed, I submit, are the reasons why Dec 19 and June 18 'enjoy' muted celebration. And some of us ...wonder why? OK now time for me to retreat to my corner jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Dear Bernardo, Surely your post deserves to be taken note of by future history books! Gen. Vassalo e Silva was a Goan? Why didn't you tell us this earlier? And how about all the governors who preceded him, were they Goans too? Did you have any particular favourites among them, that you'd recommend to us as models to follow? Regards, Victor --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 8:48 AM Tumultuous moments for a few rascal traitors of Goa. Goa was run by Goans and had rule of law. Wonder if there is any today? BC
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Dear Jose, Yours is a very thought-provoking post. But when you ask, Duck the question: Were Goans given the choice to autonomously decide their future? the answer must surely be, we were prevented from exercising that choice, first and foremost, by Salazar. Very best regards, Victor --- On Tue, 6/23/09, J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com wrote: From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 11:13 AM Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Tumultuous moments for a few rascal traitors of Goa. Goa was run by Goans and had rule of law. Wonder if there is any today? Dear Bernado, While I agree with you that pre-1961Goa was run mainly by Goans and that there was the 'rule of law', I doubt that you could convincingly argue that the law at the time was just. For, it cannot be that any law that suppresses free speech is just. I do not refer here to speech meant to incite violence, or hate speech. I refer specifically to honest disagreement with the government. This had nothing to do with the hundreds of very honest Goan civil servants who provided honest service to Goans, nor to the benevolent and courageous former Governor of Goa, Vassalo da Silva. I refer to the secret police aka PIDE who were (as expected of secret police) stupid (or brainwashed) to believe that fear and suppression of people and their honest views works. It is my understanding that there were a number of educated Goans who were quite restless at the state of affairs. Intellectual individuals are like that. They were like that in Goa, they were like that in Portugal. They both wanted the government out. It happened to be the Salazar government. It got kicked out from both places. Both peoples had suffered enough under Salazar. It is worth accepting that in the midst of any organisation and/or movement, there are opportunists. The intellectuals are not very good at identifying these self-serving con-artists. The intellectuals, after all, are idealists and dreamers. They know little about intrigue and chicanery. Every single group of idealists gets hijacked by the con-artists. That, I submit, happened in and to Goa wsf to the Freedom Movement. Some honest folks might accept it but I believe that many among us may not like to accept itor be in denial. They may not even accept that Goa today is very corrupt and filthy. It is worth viewing (and reviewing) some of the many pictures that Rajan Parrikar and JoeGoaUK send out. The expected joke is - that the concretisers turn around and blame the Goans for not resisting this mess, and for re-voting the goons back into power. Yes indeed! Tie a man's hands and then blame him for not preventing the robbery in the store. Give him a choice between a chappal and a chapati, and then blame him for choosing the chapati. Duck the question: Were Goans given the choice to autonomously decide their future? That and the filth and deterioration that follwed, I submit, are the reasons why Dec 19 and June 18 'enjoy' muted celebration. And some of us ...wonder why? OK now time for me to retreat to my corner jc
[Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:48:47 + (GMT) From: Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk Tumultuous moments for a few rascal traitors of Goa. Goa was run by Goans and had rule of law. Wonder if there is any today? Mario responds: Bernardo, Thanks for this dispatch from the distant planet of Macau:-)) I had no idea that Goa was run by Goans prior to 1961. I thought many of them were Portuguese bootlickers and that colonialism was illegal:-)) If you could pull yourself away from the casinos, friendly women and subsidies for poor people that Macau is famous for, perhaps you could come back and run Goa:-))
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Victor Rangel-Ribeiro wrote: Dear Jose, Yours is a very thought-provoking post. But when you ask, Duck the question: Were Goans given the choice to autonomously decide their future? the answer must surely be, we were prevented from exercising that choice, first and foremost, by Salazar. Dear Victor, I absolutely agree with you. Goans were first and foremost prevented from exercising that autonomous choice by Salazar. He was, after all, a dictator. What else did we expect him to do? They even booted him/his ilk out from power in Portugal. Even the (epitomy of sossegado) people of Portugal rose up against the Salazarists. (BTW: are we sure that some of the nuevo Freedom fighters cum mine-owners were not erstwhile Salazarists?) Having noted that : Are we saying that Nehru too was a 'Salazar' of sorts? Wasn't he the champion of autonomy and self-determination along with Nasser and Sukarno and Tito (all maha-dictators in their own rights) ? BTW: I don't know many Goans who miss Salazar. I know they certainly miss the cleanliness, simplicity of life, the better than average standard of living (at a lower cost) and safety of the pre-1961 times. I do. however, know of post-1961 Goans who dismiss those days merely as perfectly useless 'saudade'. I also have come to understand that there are Goans who appear to enjoy/tolerate the filth - as long as they have their favourite 'chokra boy' to do the dirty laundry and clean their yard for them. It does not matter to these Goans if the Goa environment continues to be destroyed OR to the non-Goans if the villa they are living in has been constructed after cutting down the Goan 'greens'. good wishes as always jc
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:13:30 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc cola...@gmail.com Duck the question: Were Goans given the choice to autonomously decide their future? Mario responds: I could have sworn that all those people lining up across Goa to vote in local, state and federal elections since 1961 were all Goans:-)) Perhaps they were Ghantis and Bhailles dressed to look like Goans:-))
Re: [Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
Dear Mario, You could have sworn a lot of things based on your customary 'faulty intelligence'. It is perhaps that very same faulty intelligence which made you use the phrase since 1961. If you would recheck the 'intelligence', you will note that there were NO elections in 1961 or in 1962 but in late 1963. But how does one convince the 'only voice of reason and truth on GoaNet' of this very basic truth? jc == 2009/6/23 Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net:Mario responds: I could have sworn that all those people lining up across Goa to vote in local, state and federal elections since 1961 were all Goans:-)) Perhaps they were Ghantis and Bhailles dressed to look like Goans:-))
Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters?
--- On Sun, 6/21/09, Samir Kelekar samir_kele...@yahoo.com wrote: It is laughable to call Lohia from Uttar Pradesh. Just shows the communal and religional chauvinism of the writer. regards, Samir - But Lohia was from Uttar Pradesh. How does that show the communal and religious chauvinism of the writer? Goa has its own heros to laud. If I can be accused of anything it is being proud of my own history rather than celebrating one that has been created for me. best, selma
Re: [Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters? (Carvalho)
So Selma agrees tht Lohia was a national figure. Did his oming to Goa spurred the Goan freedom movement or not? It is true indeed that Lohia did NOT start the fight for Goa's liberation, but like other leaders such as Madhu Limaye, etc. he took deep interest in Goa's freedom struggle. BTW, who is called the Father of Goa's freedom movement? Is it Lohia, dear Selma? Goa's liberation movement was supported and abetted by Indians and, hence, it was a part of Indian nationalist movement. The Indian freedom struggle for independence from British rule ran parallel to Goa's freedom struggle from Portuguese rule. If you should know Selma, Goa's freedom movement was run mostly from Bombay, which was part of British India. Goan freedom fighters made repeated trips to Delhi to plan strategies and seek advice from national leaders. To the best of my knowledge I don't think Goan Catholic national heroes have been forgotten. If some Goans think so, the fault is theirs. They live in history and are not written off. All past history lives in dusty archives for scholars to dig into and arrive at whatever conclusions they can. It is not a convenient myth, but rather true that the majority of Goan Catholics were pro-Portuguese. A small segment was pro-India and a smaller segment was for free Goa or independent Goa. From muddled thinking, comes Selma's assertion that Goan Catholics are marginalised. Are not Goan Catholics politicians playing influential roles in running the state? Are Goan Catholics deprived of their rice-and-curry? Discrimination may exist at certain levels, particularly in the process of hiring for government services, etc, but that does mean marginalisation. Goan Catholics are very much part of the mainstream. Selma and I as overseas Goans can perhaps be seen as living on the margins with little or no stake in today's Goa. There's no point in mixing issues -- let the freedom struggle stand on itself. If you have a beef against the freedom fighters association, I think you should write specifically where it has failed or why it is insignificant. But again, who the bleep cares if Selma shoots from the mouth? Eugene
[Goanet] Goa's freedom fighters?
Selma writes: What an insidious rewriting of history this is; a perpetuation of the post-liberation myth that Goan Catholics were twiddling their thumbs and playing the fiddle much like Nero, while Goa was being liberated. Where do you see this insidious re-writing ? No one says that Catholics were not involved in Goa's freedom struggle. Right from Menezes Braganza to Julio Menezes, at whose house Lohia put up in Cuncolim, Catholics were hand in hand with Hindus all the time in Goa's freedom struggle. It is laughable to call Lohia from Uttar Pradesh. Just shows the communal and religional chauvinism of the writer. regards, Samir
[Goanet] Goa's Freedom Fighters
This is with reference to the recent report in the Media that the Freedom Fighters are opposing an upcoming Portugeese Cultural Event With all due respect to all freedom fighters, I would really request to know, what really happened in 1961? With key strong factors on our side (A) The United Nations behind Goa, stating self-determination (B) Goans being aware of constitutional provisions to states like Kashmir etc. I really can't digest the fact that, Goans so easily agreed to accession, without any safeguards to preserve our unique identity. *What freedom does it look like today; Is it Liberation of Goa from the Portugeese or from the Goans? * Surely the Freedom Fighters must have fought for Genuine Goan interests.The Freedom Fighters can oppose the cultural event if they wish; but I think there are bigger issues for Goa Its Identity that they should spend their time on; and make a difference. Arwin -- Please post your comments on my Blog: http://goanidentity.blogspot.com/
