Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
To whom it may concern: 1. Hundreds of collaborative peace movements across the globe between Palestinians and Israelis see the issue in a humanistic way. Suggest one minimally looks at: www.mideastpeaceforum to start with. Google can be quite useful in this respect. 2. I disagree with Paulo about his interpretation that India had no right to Goa. Paulo's position, and some others is that, India was not a political entity when the Portuguese conquered Goa. This point is perhaps true although India was a geographical entity. Sometime, I hope to make a case against Paulo's position from a geopolitical and anti colonial point of view but this will have to wait for now. I think Mario has addressed this too but perhaps a little more in terms of conquest. Cornel --- Chris Vaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By this reasoning the peace process in the Middle East can be put to rest. Israel won. They should keep all the conquered territories. Now that also settles the question of the millions of Jews who were thrown out by the Arabs with only the shirts on their back! No rationale exists for their claim for reparations or restitution. Q.E.D. Brilliant, Mario, absolutely brilliant! Chris
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
CORNEL DACOSTA [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 1: I disagree with Paulo about his interpretation that India had no right to Goa. Paulo's position, and some others is that, India was not a political entity when the Portuguese conquered Goa. This point is perhaps true although India was a geographical entity. 2: Sometime, I hope to make a case against Paulo's position from a geopolitical and anti colonial point of view but this will have to wait for now. 3: Mario has addressed this too but perhaps a little more in terms of conquest. -- jc's comment: Whenever Cornel brings his hope to fruition and add to this debate which is purely academic, I am sure he will 'make a case against Paulo's position from a geopolitical and anti colonial point of view' on Goan independence. Because - that is the position Paulo has been writing from. (Please vide his response to Mario) At least, Mario has been intellectually honest. He writes what he believes i.e. I win You lose. examples of Mario's theory of Might is Right could be the following: 1. China wins - People of Tibet lose (1949-51) 2. Israel wins - Palestinians lose (1967) 3. China wins - India loses Ladakh (1962) 4. Indonesia wins - East Timor loses (1975) 5. Iraq wins - Kuwaitis lose (1990) 6. India invades East Pakistan (1971) - East Pak now part of India 7.Thief who invades non-gated community home wins - homeowner loses (anytime) 8. Stronger man who invades the modesty of a weaker woman wins - woman loses.(all the time) and finally, I am sure Cornel will advise us (surely from a a geopolitical and anti colonial point of view) the position of Andaman Islands. jc
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
Mario wrote: Hey, Paulo. My family was on the opposite side of this battle from yours. We won. We feel liberated because we did not want to be ruled by white Europeans. You lost. Get over it. Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:17:38 -0400 From: Chris Vaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] By this reasoning the peace process in the Middle East can be put to rest. Israel won. They should keep all the conquered territories. Mario responds: Actually, Israel has only suceeded in surviving. It is not being allowed to win decisively by the rest of the world community, which does not even mention anymore that the reason for the continuing conflict - after the world community decided on a two-state solution in 1947 - is the failure of the Arabs to accept the right of Israel to exist in peace and security. Thus, the so-called unending peace process in the middle-east is so much bulls..., ...um, cow cake:-)) By contrast, after surrendering, just look at how nicely Japan, Italy and Germany turned out. Chris wrote: Now that also settles the question of the millions of Jews who were thrown out by the Arabs with only the shirts on their back! No rationale exists for their claim for reparations or restitution. Mario responds: Though you may have the mythology backwards, there have actually been BILLIONS already paid, and continuing to be paid, in reparations to both Israel and the Arabs - with YOUR tax money and mine. Chris wrote: Brilliant, Mario, absolutely brilliant! Mario responds: I always do my best, Chris:-)) Thanks for noticing:-))
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
Paulo wrote: 1: Mario, you and others fail to understand what the real Goan issue is all about. Mario responds: Hey, Paulo. I thought you said I won the bike?:-)) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 09:10:29 -0400 From: J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Surely Mario and his ilk do not know that the issue of Goa had three interested parties (1) Goans (2) Portugal (3) India. As it turned out, Goa and Goans were brushed aside by Nehru and Menon. Mario responds: Aux contraire, mon ami. Mario and his ilk know exactly what was going on. To wit, that Goa was colonized by the Portuguese ages ago, then continued to spuriously claim that it was an overseas province well after the era of colonization had ended, then obstinately refused to leave when politely asked, and had to be firmly shown the door by India in 1961. It is abundantly clear that Jose, Paulo and their ilk STILL do not know that their fantasies are now part of a self-serving history that is embedded in their own minds, not in REALITY. BTW, the last time I checked, the state government of Goa, unbeknownst to Jose and Paulo, who both live elsewhere, are freely elected by the citizens of Goa. From 1510 to 1947 there were no elections in Goa as to whom should be running the government of Goa. So much for being brushed aside by Nehru and India. The fact is that the ones who were brushed aside were the Portophiles, which Tio Alfred likes to call Lusophiles. Jose wrote: Using Mario's logic (oxymoron), it could be said that Iraq has a right to invade and capture Kuwait. Wasn't the space now known as Kuwait, once part of the Empire of which Iraq was a part? So - what is the difference? Mario explains: The difference should be obvious to anyone who is not an oxy-moron:-)) The world community through the UN decided otherwise and took Kuwait back by force. Q.E.D. Jose wrote: Remember now, Mario has justified recent conquests where according to his logic: His side won, the other side lost. What happened to the place which got bombed to smitherins and people who got wiped out - is immaterial. Mario responds: So, what about the winning side winning and the losing side losing are you finding so hard to understand? Some people always get wiped out in armed conflicts. Which is precisely why armed conflicts should be the last resort, and why the Portuguese colonists should have left peacefully when they were asked to. The modern end of the era of colonization had begun in 1947, and the Portuguese were given ample opportunity to understand that. Jose wrote: Using Mario's brilliant logic a step further: It is justifiable for a man to molest a woman IF he is strong and she isn't. Mario responds: Tsk, tsk, tsk. This is less than brilliant as an analytical example. What you are surmising would not only be absurd, but would also be a felony and someone stronger than the rapist, like the police, would come and put him away for a very long time. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Jose wrote: It doesn't matter that it is morally wrong to use force against a person or people without express consent. Mario asks: Oh, so the strong must first ask the consent of the weak before ejecting them from a place they had illegally occupied in the first place??? Wouldn't that cancel the advantage of being physically strong and put the weak in control? Besides, I recall that India had for years politely asked the Portuguese to leave, directly and through the UN. Jose wrote: PS: I don't know why anybody should grumble about what is happening in Goa today. I believe that after Dec 1961, every single Indian from any part of India has every legal right to buy ANY piece of property which is legally sold to him/her. Mario responds: FINALLY, exhausted from the mental strain of supporting his anti-Indian, Portophile ilk, Jose breaks down and says something that make eminent sense:-))
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
Mario== You are extremely funny... Ha! Ha, ha!...;--)) Did you read the AP newsfeed this morning? It said: Robert Mugabe said he won the election I won! (a la Tom Tom Macoute...) Get over it! Otherwise I'll kneecap you! -- and I am being polite :--)) And I have most of the African leadership -- and my fellow dictator-in-chief Hosni Mubarak as my supporter ! Cheers! Chris - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin Mario wrote: Hey, Paulo. My family was on the opposite side of this battle from yours. We won. We feel liberated because we did not want to be ruled by white Europeans. You lost. Get over it. Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 10:17:38 -0400 From: Chris Vaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] By this reasoning the peace process in the Middle East can be put to rest. Israel won. They should keep all the conquered territories. Mario responds: Actually, Israel has only suceeded in surviving. It is not being allowed to win decisively by the rest of the world community, which does not even mention anymore that the reason for the continuing conflict - after the world community decided on a two-state solution in 1947 - is the failure of the Arabs to accept the right of Israel to exist in peace and security. Thus, the so-called unending peace process in the middle-east is so much bulls..., ...um, cow cake:-)) By contrast, after surrendering, just look at how nicely Japan, Italy and Germany turned out. Chris wrote: Now that also settles the question of the millions of Jews who were thrown out by the Arabs with only the shirts on their back! No rationale exists for their claim for reparations or restitution. Mario responds: Though you may have the mythology backwards, there have actually been BILLIONS already paid, and continuing to be paid, in reparations to both Israel and the Arabs - with YOUR tax money and mine. Chris wrote: Brilliant, Mario, absolutely brilliant! Mario responds: I always do my best, Chris:-)) Thanks for noticing:-))
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:32:16 +0100 From: Paulo Colaco Dias [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is a fact that Goa was colonised by Portugal. It is also a fact that the Supreme Court of India determined that the Indian Union acquired the Portuguese State of India on the 19th Dec. 1961 by an act of conquest and subjugation. Mario adds: Isn't it also a fact that the so-called facts above are irrelevent? Isn't it a fact that Goa is a state in India and this has been recognized by the UN and everyone else but Paulo and a few of his closest friends? Paulo wrote: So, according to India we are not liberated but conquered. It is only some of us Goans that shamelessly continue to claim that we have been liberated even after the very clear Supreme Court of India determination. Mario responds: Hey, Paulo. My family was on the opposite side of this battle from yours. We won. We feel liberated because we did not want to be ruled by white Europeans. You lost. Get over it.
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
Mario, you and others fail to understand what the real Goan issue is all about. Nobody wants to be ruled. Goa should never have ever been ruled. Goa should not be ruled by anyone. Definitely not by Europeans and definitely not by other brown-skinned people (read ethnic Indians). We Goans may be ethnical Indian. Just like the Portuguese are ethnical Europeans. But that is about it. The Pakistanis were also ethnical Indian but they chose not to be ruled by India. Goa never belonged to the Republic of India and therefore it does not make sense to say that Goa has been returned to the Republic of India in 1961. Only ignorant people can claim that. Goa should have been liberated and returned to Goa and to Goans so that they could choose their future. That is all I have been saying all along. That is it. Plain and simple. The Republic of India * did not * have a legal stand to rule over Goa or to conquer Goa. You and others keep changing (spinning) what I say. I am not defending the side of the Portuguese. I am defending the side of Goa and Goans. What has happened is clearly injustice to Goa and Goans. I think this is quite simple to read and understand. So, please do not keep changing what I write and influence other people in the bargain. It is about time Goans understand that we Goans are the ones who lost out in 1961. Not the Portuguese! Thanks Paulo. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mario Goveia Sent: 30 June 2008 16:03 To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin Hey, Paulo. My family was on the opposite side of this battle from yours. We won. We feel liberated because we did not want to be ruled by white Europeans. You lost. Get over it. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.3/1525 - Release Date: 29/06/2008 15:09
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
By this reasoning the peace process in the Middle East can be put to rest. Israel won. They should keep all the conquered territories. Now that also settles the question of the millions of Jews who were thrown out by the Arabs with only the shirts on their back! No rationale exists for their claim for reparations or restitution. Q.E.D. Brilliant, Mario, absolutely brilliant! Chris - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 16:32:16 +0100 From: Paulo Colaco Dias [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is a fact that Goa was colonised by Portugal. It is also a fact that the Supreme Court of India determined that the Indian Union acquired the Portuguese State of India on the 19th Dec. 1961 by an act of conquest and subjugation. Mario adds: Isn't it also a fact that the so-called facts above are irrelevent? Isn't it a fact that Goa is a state in India and this has been recognized by the UN and everyone else but Paulo and a few of his closest friends? Paulo wrote: So, according to India we are not liberated but conquered. It is only some of us Goans that shamelessly continue to claim that we have been liberated even after the very clear Supreme Court of India determination. Mario responds: Hey, Paulo. My family was on the opposite side of this battle from yours. We won. We feel liberated because we did not want to be ruled by white Europeans. You lost. Get over it.
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
Paulo wrote: 1: Mario, you and others fail to understand what the real Goan issue is all about. 2: Goa should not be ruled by anyone...The Pakistanis were also ethnical Indian but they chose not to be ruled by India. 3: Goa never belonged to the Republic of India ..The Republic of India * did not * have a legal stand to rule over Goa or to conquer Goa. 4: I am not defending the side of the Portuguese. I am defending the side of Goa and Goans. 5: It is about time Goans understand that we Goans are the ones who lost out in 1961. Not the Portuguese! Earlier, Mario Goveia wrote: Hey, Paulo. My family was on the opposite side of this battle from yours. We won. We feel liberated .. You lost. Get over it. Dear Paulo, I am glad that at least you chose to respond to Mario Goveia. Surely Mario and his ilk do not know that the issue of Goa had three interested parties (1) Goans (2) Portugal (3) India. As it turned out, Goa and Goans were brushed aside by Nehru and Menon. There are the shallow who probably are unaware that intellectual Goans were OPPOSED to Portugal's continuing in Goa. They were working towards Independence. Froilano de Mello opposed Salazar right in the Portuguese Parliament. The ones who were the real boot-lickers of Salazar are the ones who miraculously became 'freedom-fighters' overnight - in mid Dec 1961. Using Mario's logic (oxymoron), it could be said that Iraq has a right to invade and capture Kuwait. Wasn't the space now known as Kuwait, once part of the Empire of which Iraq was a part? So - what is the difference? Remember now, Mario has justified recent conquests where according to his logic: His side won, the other side lost. What happened to the place which got bombed to smitherins and people who got wiped out - is immaterial. I know that Eugene Correia said that there is a price to pay (I paraphrase). I suppose that is OK as long as I don't have to pay it. You should wait for Mario's typical response to really understand the prevalent illogic. Using Mario's brilliant logic a step further: It is justifiable for a man to molest a woman IF he is strong and she isn't. It doesn't matter that it is morally wrong to use force against a person or people without express consent. Isn't that one of the lessons from the Nuremberg trial? Sadly, for the Marios of this world, ALL that matters is that - the strong shall prevail. More in keeping with the Darwinian survival of the fitest that these amigos de Mario love to hate. jc PS: I don't know why anybody should grumble about what is happening in Goa today. I believe that after Dec 1961, every single Indian from any part of India has every legal right to buy ANY piece of property which is legally sold to him/her. All this Rajan Parrikar et al bhaillo nonsense is just that i.e. nonsense. No Indian is a bhaillo in Goa. As Mario says get used to it. Also get used to the fact that even IF there are Re 1 toilets or Cornelian Port-a-loos, those who do not wish to pay the Re 1 or use the Portaloos, have every right to defecate and micturate anywhere (especially on those beaches) in Goa just like they did in the rest of India. otherwise - take them to court and get a ruling.
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- GL once again acting as the Goanet Spin Doctor. For the record: 1) I never used the word slave or slaves. This is GL invention or spin produce as you all must have already guessed. If there is something GL is good at, it is spin! 2) It is a fact that Goa was colonised by Portugal. It is also a fact that the Supreme Court of India determined that the Indian Union acquired the Portuguese State of India on the 19th Dec. 1961 by an act of conquest and subjugation. So, according to India we are not liberated but conquered. It is only some of us Goans that shamelessly continue to claim that we have been liberated even after the very clear Supreme Court of India determination. 3) It is a fact that in the last few years of Portuguese rule, Goans were in power in Goa and the Portuguese State of India was almost autonomous. We had a European white Portuguese governor but almost all other important post was occupied by Goans. The judiciary was fully 100% Goan. The Police force had lots of Goans. The Goan civil administration was almost 100% Goan. The civil registries were ran by Goans. And when I say Goans of course it is Goans of all religions. In fact, there were quite a lot of Hindus in high governmental positions as well. The post of Director of Civil Administration of the entire Portuguese State of India was several times occupied by Hindus. In the last few days I met a Goan friend who is compiling his memoirs. He has seen the Indian Union black list of Goans who were not allowed to pass the border from Goa to India and vice versa. According to him, there was an equal number of Goan Catholics and Hindus in that list. 4) We do not know if Portugal would have offered independence to Goa before 1975. After 1974, yes, surely. But before 1974, maybe not. But there are rumours that a Goan-born governor - Dr. Armando Goncalves Pereira - had already been invited by Salazar in 1961 to replace Vassalo e Silva and to calm down the insurgence. He was never officially appointed because he himself told Salazar that it was too late. This according to some may have speeded up the invasion by Nehru. Nehru wanted to prevent a true Goan born to be running the Portuguese state of India because that would increase the chances of Goa attaining full self determination and independence from Portugal. Another interesting fact is that Nehru's cabinet was divided. Half were in favour and half were against the invasion. At the last minute on the 17th Dec 1961, Nehru was warned by the American ambassador to India that he would be doing a mistake and apparently Nehru telephoned his main army general to suspend the operation. But this army general lied to him and said that it was too late and the Indian troops had already invaded Portuguese territory when in fact the operation had not yet started. Ref: Mathai, O. M. - My days with Nehru. (a very rare book which is supposedly currently banned in India). The rest is history... I end with John Menezes' excellent contribution posted in a previous goanet thread some years ago: It is interesting to read in: Nehru, the maker of modern India by K. Natwar Singh. The author is severely critical of Nehru when he says: If Nehru had passed away in 1960, he would have been placed just below Buddha and Gandhiji. Goa in 1961, followed by 1962, did dent his image. It was not just military action against Goa but India's doctrine in the UN Security Council debate that was appalling when C.S. Jha proclaimed, It is a question of getting rid of the last vestiges of colonialism in India. Charter or no charter, council or no council, this is our basic faith which we cannot afford to give up at any cost. To this the United States' Adlai Stevenson retorted, But what is at stake is not colonialism; it is a bold violation of the most basic principles of the UN Charter. Goa was already 98 per cent autonomous in its civil administration and 100 per cent in its judiciary. Concurrently, the Soviet Union had been goading China into adventurism in Hong Kong and Macau but the proverbial Chinese wisdom prevailed, until 36 years later when, after 15 years of negotiations, both fell as ripe apples into China's lap with a 50-year mini Constitution for each. Best regards Paulo Colaco Dias. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gilbert Lawrence Sent: 27 June 2008 01:04 To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin Related threads and discussions
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin - more manufacturing
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- Gilbert Lawrence writes: Jose put the names of Cornel da Costa and Eddie Fernandes vis-a-vis the British in the same sentence (league) as Gaitonde's anti-Portuguese actions? Can someone please clarify what did these 'Bristish' guys do? Can somebody provide references? --jc's response: Would Gilbert please advise IF and WHERE Jose even considered 'Dr Gaitonde's anti-Portuguese actions' in ANY sentence which contains the names Cornel da Costa and Eddie Fernandes? What is wrong with you, Gilbert? Are you also into manufacturing - or is it that you cannot read, or perhaps that you can read but not comprehend? You do ask for a reference - so I will give you one - just any one It may not be connected to Dr Pundalik Gaitonde,Cornel da Costa or Eddie Fernandes but just might have some 'reference' to Gilbert http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article4153530.ece As the Velim based Xri Konfucious would say: Have mouth, Will Speak. cheers jc
[Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- South Asian Film Festival in Goa from Fri (June 27) to Mon (June 30) At Kala Academy, and ESG, Panaji, Goa http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-June/076384.html --- Related threads and discussions on Telo were Hyperbole - Par Excellance and very revealing of the various posters. 1. Paulo stating that Goans were slaves of Portugal. Did I really read that from Paulo? Does this apply to the Goans rulers of Goa? 2. Paulo's claim that native Goans are slaves of / in India. This after Goans have had the most frequent elections of any group in India (may be the world) from 1961 to 2008? Does Paulo understand how modern civil societies exercise freedom? 3. Jose put the names of Cornel da Costa and Eddie Fernandes vis-a-vis the British in the same sentence (league) as Gaitonde's anti-Portuguese actions? Can someone please clarify what did these 'Bristish' guys do? Can somebody provide references? I hope it is more than, they scripted some letters-to-the editor and newspaper articles in high English. Please do not disappoint me. 4. Paulo and Jose advise Samir to move on - perhaps because they have done so. OK I get it. The native Goans have to do the Mukar Voss (move ahead) while the Portophiles do the Phattim Voss and the rest of the Goanetters do the talli-bajao to this samba. Regards, GL Paulo Colaco Dias We have had some of the most amazing admissions from old time posters of this forum during the last few days. Hyperboles and false claims do not help and denigrate this forum's reputation. --- Eugene Correia Paulo, did you hear of the term hyperbole. What I said about Telo may have never come back on Indian soil, was a deliberate attempt to annoy you and JC. But if that line made you go LOL it served its purpose.
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
Paulo, did you hear of the term hyperbole. What I said about Telo may have never come back on Indian soil, was a deliberate attempt to annoy you and JC. But if that line made you go LOL it served its purpose. The good doctor said that Lohia did not speak at Margoa. Lohia began his speech and after delivering a few lines from his prepared speech he was arrested. He put his prepared speech in the hands of Vishwanath Lawande who began reading and after some time the police snapped the sheet from him and took was taken away. The few lines Lohia spoke did, in fact, thundered across all Goa. Check the recent issue of Goa Today, In the piece by Sharmila Kamat and Pratima Kamat, the writers say, Dr. Lohia's clarion call soon echoed all over Goa: Dhanya Lohia, dhanya bhumi hi, dhanya tiche putr, dhanya tyancho tyaag, dekhte janatche netr.' Just for information, when Lohia died he had just 20 rupees in his bank account. Unlike today's politicians who may be having at least 20 crores (obviously black money). Pratima's book, Farar Far, too has a brief account of the incident. Let me once again gladden your's and Paulo's hearts by saying that, IMHO, Telo does not deserve to be included in the category of Builders of Modern India. But then, it is a compiler's choice and according to his own criteria. Are there any other Goans in the menitoned in the book? Eugene
Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
We have had some of the most amazing admissions from old time posters of this forum during the last few days. This was indeed quite a revealing week for Goanet and follows on few revelations last week that we do not need a discussion based on facts in this forum. Yes, Eugene, I am very aware of the term hyperbole. I was just not aware that you express yourself with hyperboles. Thanks for letting me and other netters know. You could have perhaps added a smile after your claims :-) . That would have probably done the trick. But anyway, I am glad you admitted it. It all makes sense now and if you and others choose to use hyperboles, I wonder if it is really worth replying next time around... I thought a few of us were trying to be realistic and having a serious discussion on serious issues. Hyperboles and false claims do not help and denigrate this forum's reputation. Best Paulo. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eugene Correia Sent: 24 June 2008 11:59 To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin Paulo, did you hear of the term hyperbole. What I said about Telo may have never come back on Indian soil, was a deliberate attempt to annoy you and JC. But if that line made you go LOL it served its purpose. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1515 - Release Date: 23/06/2008 19:16
[Goanet] June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin
Eugene Correia wrote to Paulo: 1: What I said about Telo may have never come back on Indian soil, was a deliberate attempt to annoy you and JC. But if that line made you go LOL it served its purpose. 2: The good doctor said that Lohia did not speak at Margoa. Lohia began his speech and after delivering a few lines from his prepared speech he was arrested. He put his prepared speech in the hands of Vishwanath Lawande who began reading and after some time the police snapped the sheet from him and took was taken away. 3: The few lines Lohia spoke did, in fact, thundered across all Goa. Check the recent issue of Goa Today, In the piece by Sharmila Kamat and Pratima Kamat, the writers say, Dr. Lohia's clarion call soon echoed all over Goa: Dhanya Lohia, dhanya bhumi hi, dhanya tiche putr, dhanya tyancho tyaag, dekhte janatche netr.' 4: Pratima's book, Farar Far, too has a brief account of the incident. == jc's comment: Most 'respected' Eugene Correia, a: Your writings do not annoy me - they amuse me. They amuse me because of your penchant for writing without research. That, for an alleged journo, is rather curious. But then ...as is said with computer data - Garbage in and Garbage out. b: Do tell us Eugene that you have (as a journalist) the reputation in Canada of being a journo who researches before he writes. c: Have you heard about the phrase Fugeito petoita and bosson poita (polletah)? d: I do not know IF you were in Margao in 1946. I know I was no where in sight or even 'twinkle'. Would you know if Sharmila Kamat and Pratima Kamat were around? So ...then what is the basis of their claim? who did they speak to - for the book or article. If they were referring to Juliao Menezes' book - did they cross reference it? e: In which language did Lohia give this alleged clarion call to Goans? and WHAT language is that which you have quoted above in #3 f: There was a time when Mario's amigos told bondollam - ani more bondollam. If not for investigative journalism (not your forte, surely), the bondollam would have been history written in stone. That is why regurgitation must be challenged. Do you challenge regurgitation? g: I do not wish to comment about Lawande. Today is not my day to think about the RSS. h: I commend to you a system some of us teach in medicine and which I see being used in the judicial pronouncements I get to read every now and again : One looks at ALL the available facts and known circumstances of the case and cross-checks them for reasonable probability. i: INFRA is a myth which was/still is being propagated in Goa - which a real historian (who is both a scholar and a researcher) tore into. j: As Velim based Xri Konfucius said: He who writes SOLELY based on another person's book - not really certain of the truth. He also no use his sense. The myth and the historian's challenge of the myth: http://www.colaco.net/1/TRSfolkloreRaneRajput.htm while you are in the mood for reading (here is another view available for challenge by researchers) http://www.colaco.net/4/GoaLib18.htm jc BTW: re ...your Title: June 18-- Let the Revolution Begin; jc asks .WHICH REVOLUTION and WHICH JUNE 18?
Re: [Goanet] June 18- Let the Revolution Begin
I find laughable Eugene's claim: The book perhaps tells how long Telo was sentenced. If not for Indian government's intervention, he would not have been back on Indian soil. And can Eugene be sure of this? How can anyone be sure that Portugal would have not released Telo sooner or later? Eugene's claim is ridiculous. We all know that Portugal started changing its views regarding its overseas possessions as early as 1967 when it offered Macau back to China for the first time (and China declined the offer). We also know that in 1974, Portugal became a democratic country and offered independence to all its colonies. How can anyone at all claim that Telo would not have been back on Indian soil if not for India's intervention. Who is Eugene to know this for sure? God??? Ahahahahaha!!! LOL! Where are the facts in Eugene's claim? Paulo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eugene Correia Sent: 21 June 2008 11:54 To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] June 18- Let the Revolution Begin Miguel, again you have missed the point. It was not me but JC who raised the issue obliquely and then I said that I know that Telo was charged with bigamy. The book perhaps tells how long Telo was sentenced. If not for Indian government's intervention, he would not have been back on Indian soil. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1513 - Release Date: 22/06/2008 07:52
Re: [Goanet] June 18- Let the Revolution Begin
Paulo Colaco Dias [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [1] I find laughable Eugene's claim [2] And can Eugene be sure of this? [3] Eugene's claim is ridiculous. [4] Where are the facts in Eugene's claim? = jc's response: Paulo my friend, You are being absolutely unfair. You really expect Eugene to be sure, not to be 'ridiculous' and to base his claims on facts? What is wrong with you? Have you not heard Pat Boone's Love Letters in the Sand? Well ..Eugene is writing anthing which comes to his mind' in the Sand. BTW: Have you not heard this other claim i.e. Lohia THUNDERED in Margao? Did Lohia speak publicly in Margao? When? What did he say? Hm jc PS: 46 years after the Portuguese left, some brilliantissimus are still looking for the June 18 Revolution to Begin? HELLO!!
Re: [Goanet] June 18- Let the Revolution Begin
Miguel, again you have missed the point. It was not me but JC who raised the issue obliquely and then I said that I know that Telo was charged with bigamy. The book perhaps tells how long Telo was sentenced. If not for Indian government's intervention, he would not have been back on Indian soil. I wished you had read between the lines of my post that Telo was NOT happy that the Indian government that instead of him being made the supervisor of the Portuguese section of AIR, Nehru prevered Laxmanrao Sardesai. JC likes to tease. He should give us the gist of the conversation with Telo. But then to ask in the same manner he asks others, how would others verify he is telling the truth and not telling us manufactured facts. However, stop the suspense and also stop this tread. JC the ball is in your. You get the last word...probably. Can I know from Goa-based netters if the book by Edila Gaitonde and also the Builders of Modern India are available in Goa? Eugene Eugene
Re: [Goanet] June 18- Let the Revolution Begin
Eugene Correia: 1: Telo was NOT happy that the Indian government that instead of him being made the supervisor of the Portuguese section of AIR, Nehru prevered Laxmanrao Sardesai. 2: JC likes to tease. He should give us the gist of the conversation with Telo. But then to ask in the same manner he asks others, how would others verify he is telling the truth and not telling us manufactured facts. However, stop the suspense and also stop this tread. = jc's response: So Eugene, Telo expected a job from Nehru in return for some speeches hanh? Brilliant!!! Is that the type of nationalism that Fred, you and Samir have been touting and flouting? How come, then that you guys do not support Aires for a Govt post? You are right on one point. I do like to tease. If the 'hypersensitive' journos (especially the ones who believed that Ole Xac BC was either Paulo Colaco or definitely jc) ...yes...IF those alleged 'hypersensitive' journos get a Type 1 hypersensitivity reaction every time I post something, I suppose - they deserve it. These alleged 'hypersensitive' journos have been in charge of the information station for several decades. What stories have they told you and when? Have they not buried their head in the sand - until the very end? WHO really fought hard and openly against the communal VCD? When did the alleged 'hypersensitive' journos join? When did they know about the infamous VCD? When out they have known? And there is this chap aka Mario Cabral.anyway. And these journos have the nerve to talk? BTW: Have I stated any facts in my recent posts on Telo, or merely asked questions? Never mind your interpretation - but do provide me the list of facts that I may have manufactured like some of the folks here. WRT the conversations with Telo: There is a riverfront room - first left as soon as you enter a former Palace in Goa. It was known as the VIP room. Now ...you go figure out - if you are interested. As I said before, I support breast feeding, not spoon feeding. I will provide one bit of spoon-food for those (like Samir) who might not know. The Opinion Poll was NOT 45 years ago! Let us learn to research properly (and as Marx/Gadgil say ...Question everything) before we jump up and down saying ...Zoi Zoi. jc
Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin
I sent a post in reply to Miguel's post before reading Fred's post. So, the Telo's bio makes it clear that he had divorced his first wife and later married Elsa. So, waa the bigamy charge technically right or was it proved in Portuguese court that the divorce never legally took place? In my post I never said that the bigamy charge against Telo was trumped=up as alleged by JC. I made a general reference that the Porutuguese often arrested nationalists on trumphed=up charges. These are new questions. Perhaps, JC should ask Shashikala whether she also manufactured facts. For JC some of us journalists are alleged journalists. I must say he is not an alleged medical doctor but an alleged spin doctor. It says I have only sand to stand on but not facts. He perhaps writes by standing on his head and spinning like a top. I hope that while spinning the cobwebs from his neo-colonist mind gets wiped out. Carry on, doc. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin
Dear Minguel, Sad to know that the point I made escaped your attention. I said that some noted freedom fighters left India. It was as a sidelight that I mentioned Telo wanted to leave India and how his so-called friend betrayed him. I would like to know further if Telo was, in fact, married to two women, though I know of Elsa and if the bigamy charge was justified. I also asked how could a man get such a long sentence for bigamy. As for my rambling, the original post was precise. It was only after the good doctor sent in a reply that I ramblemed on in my second post. It becomes obvious that the Portuguese wanted to keep him in jail for his nationalist activities. I am not sure if there were any interviews or any writing on Telo after his return, but I read one piece by him in the now-defunct Illustrated Weekly of India. It would be fine to check General Guedes and Castilho's role in getting Telo arrested. I never raised the point of bigamy but the doctor from Bahamas. Again, I showed how the wives of Telo and Pundalik lived away from their husbands. As for pension, I have said that the government should scrutinize the papers of new freedom fighters. And as for Flaviano, I have not seen the VCD. Only Flaviano can answer why he chose to bring in Dr. Menezes's name now. Perhaps a letter to the editor of the paper could be the way to raise the point. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin
I will never understand why some Goans slaughter the very nice name Miguel into Minguel. This is more common in the Goan world than one may think. I came across 2 months ago a Goan in London spelling his own name as Minguel to me whilst in his birth certificate and passport the name is clearly specified as Miguel. He is aware his true name is Miguel in his birth certificate and passport but he continues to use and spell it as Minguel. Most strange! As I said, I will never understand this. I know that Miguel Braganza is Miguel, not Minguel and he always signs as Miguel. So lets not slaughter his name to Minguel. Anyway, I just wanted to add my two cents to this useless (one more) discussion. FACTS: It may be that Telo got divorced but the fact is that if you have a marriage registered in Portugal, then you need to get the divorce equally registered in Portugal, otherwise, your marriage will continue to be valid in Portugal. I do not know if Telo got divorced or not. If he did, he may have got divorced outside Portugal, but if that divorce was not registered in Portugal, then he was still married in Portugal under Portuguese law and he could not get married again anywhere in the world. This has always been the case and is true even today! I agree the sentence could have been lower and I have no doubts that he must have got the maximum sentence because of his ideas, connections and influence as freedom fighter. Best regards Paulo Colaco Dias. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:goanet- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eugene Correia Sent: 20 June 2008 07:20 To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin Dear Minguel, Sad to know that the point I made escaped your attention. I said that some noted freedom fighters left India. It was as a sidelight that I mentioned Telo wanted to leave India and how his so-called friend betrayed him. I would like to know further if Telo was, in fact, married to two women, though I know of Elsa and if the bigamy charge was justified. I also asked how could a man get such a long sentence for bigamy. As for my rambling, the original post was precise. It was only after the good doctor sent in a reply that I ramblemed on in my second post. It becomes obvious that the Portuguese wanted to keep him in jail for his nationalist activities. I am not sure if there were any interviews or any writing on Telo after his return, but I read one piece by him in the now- defunct Illustrated Weekly of India. It would be fine to check General Guedes and Castilho's role in getting Telo arrested. I never raised the point of bigamy but the doctor from Bahamas. Again, I showed how the wives of Telo and Pundalik lived away from their husbands. As for pension, I have said that the government should scrutinize the papers of new freedom fighters. And as for Flaviano, I have not seen the VCD. Only Flaviano can answer why he chose to bring in Dr. Menezes's name now. Perhaps a letter to the editor of the paper could be the way to raise the point. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin
Dears, The Portuguese spelling MIGUEL is one alphabet shorter than the Spanish MINGUEL. For some inexplicable reason many Goans prefer to write the Spanish version though we were a Portuguese colony for 451 years ...without a single year under Spain! I thank Paulo for doing the needful. Is Eugene Correia related to Telo Mascarenhas to be interested in his bigamy or otherwise? Personal matters are of no relevance to the Freedom Struggle. Would Telo be less of a Freedom Fighter if he was a Trigamist or Polygamist ...or a bachelor? No need of a letter to the Editor. I will ask Flaviano when I meet him. I have seen the VCD and made a big noise about it till I was heard. Two months later, the Parrikar Government fell. The VCD was NOT the cause ...but an aggravating factor. Flaviano did not have the right answers about the VCD except that Cuncolim was not properly represented in Goa's history ...and the bloody Brahmin historians did not much about the Kshatriya Desais. Funny. Flaviano was born in a Catholic family of Dias [formerly Desai, perhaps] and he later converted to atheism and communism. So where does the pride in the Desai clan and the Kshatriya/Chardo caste come from? Casteist Communism? I asked him. No answer to this date. Manohar Parrikar is not willing to accept that the VCD was a mistake even today. He claims it was an effort to preserve history ...for posterity, of course. Soon he may be a part of political history of Goa .like Dilkush Desai or Ramakant Khalap. He is already suffering hallucinations and calling a former teacher, with an M.Phil in Latin American studies from Goa University, a Naxalite. Mog asundi Miguel Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:33:02 +0100 From: Paulo Colaco Dias [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin I will never understand why some Goans slaughter the very nice name Miguel into Minguel. This is more common in the Goan world than one may think. I know that Miguel Braganza is Miguel, not Minguel and he always signs as Miguel. So lets not slaughter his name to Minguel. Anyway, I just wanted to add my two cents to this useless (one more) discussion. FACTS: I do not know if Telo got divorced or not. If he did, he may have got divorced outside Portugal, but if that divorce was not registered in Portugal, then he was still married in Portugal under Portuguese law and he could not get married again anywhere in the world. This has always been the case and is true even today! Best regards Paulo Colaco Dias. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:goanet- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eugene Correia Sent: 20 June 2008 07:20 Dear Minguel, I would like to know further if Telo was, in fact, married to two women, though I know of Elsa and if the bigamy charge was justified. I never raised the point of bigamy but the doctor from Bahamas. As for pension, I have said that the government should scrutinize the papers of new freedom fighters. And as for Flaviano, I have not seen the VCD. Only Flaviano can answer why he chose to bring in Dr. Menezes's name now. Perhaps a letter to the editor of the paper could be the way to raise the point. Eugene -- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. Miguel Braganza, S1 Gracinda Apts, Rajvaddo, Mhapsa 403507 Goa Ph 9822982676 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin
Well, yes Telo was charged with bigamy. For that he got what 10 to 12 years in jail? Historical data has shown how the Portuguese worked against the nationalists. I am not sure but I think Telo, on his return, was bypassed for the supervisor's post in All-India Radio, Delhi and the post given it to Laxmanrao Sardesai, a Saraswat Brahmin, also a freedom fighter. Did not Sardesai later become editor of Goa Today and then Ambassador to Angola? We have seen on goanet how the little info on Agente Monteiro brought an avalanche of information, including personal views from Monteiro's son. I think Fred wrote a wrote on it for IANS or Goa Today. Similarly, journalists in Goa could do some more digging into Telo's life and also verify what I have written. Some Goa-based and some Portugal-based historians are members of goanet and they could shed more light. I myself wanted to do my Ph. D in Goa's freedom struggle through long-distance learning from Goa University but was denied because of residential qualification as I lived in Canada. I had approached Teotonio de Souza to be my guide, if I remember correctly. I lost the opportunity to do my doctorate when the late Dr. George Mark Moraes, the doyen of Goan historians, offered to be my guide. I foolishly went to join a law college after my post-graduation. I have gone through tmany books on Goa's freedom struggle and also the Who's Who (in two volumes) by my friend and ex-college Prakash Shirodkar, the former director of Goa's archives (forget the name of the institution). One other historian also offered to be my guide. I write this because Goa's freedom struggle has been one of my favourite subjects. I have discussed this subject with many freedom fighters and also with Prof. Rubinoff, the Toronto academic who wrote India's Use of Force in Goa for his doctorate. As I said earlier, I do not have my books with me in Dubai. So it become a big problem. I just wrote a piece on Bombay Goans and I had to jog my memory. I could not remember lot of names and incidents and could remember some very faintly. Another example is the postings on Goan women hockey internationals. I could not remember many names and thanks to some goanetters who provided clarifications and verifications. Just is the nature of goanet and it should remain that way. However, I am surprised that JC and PC were ticked off by my writing on June 18. I have spoken from the heart that some those who I mentioned may have been bit disappointed with the way things turned out after liberation. That's the price one pays. Freedom has its own price. Coming to another relevant topice that of freedom fighters being given monthly pension or monetary rewards or compensation, I do not find anything wrong with it. Many freedom fighters fell on bad days. They suffered a lot. It is for the freedom fighters to decline such offers by saying that they did it for the country and with their hearts. I don't think any of the freedom fighters took part in the freedom movement with an eye to getting financial rewards. I doubt the thought ever came to their minds. Unfortunately, some freedom fighters got big rewards through government posts, etc, while the majority were found fighting for bread (not butter) each day. In my reading and also meeting with freedom fighters, I have known that the credentials of some of the FF were not wanting. I know that some were just freedom shouters and some were just arsonists. Maybe the children of the FF also joined their parents by just shouting slogans against the Portuguese and now that they have grown up they lay claim to being FF. JoeGoaUK's mock post makes one take notice that everything is not alright in the government's approach to granting compensation to those who suddenly claim to be freedom fighters. I think in the past the FF society or group has objected to certain persons being called FF. I just read a bit of Flaviano Dias's (my ex-colleague at Free Press Journal) piece on June 18 and I agree that Dr. Juliao Menezes was largely forgotten for his role. It is the misfortune of history that Ram Monohar Lohia had a larger image and that Dr. Menezes's own persona and role got overshadowed in the swell of things of the time. I wish if someone could post me or post it to goanet Flaviano's piece. In a decade or less, many of the FF would be dead and gone. Whatever one may say, June 18 will remain symbolic in more sense than one. It would remain more glorious that the actual Liberation Day. The freedom struggle had its own share of factional groups and most of its history is now written. Yet, more needs to be written and I am not sure if any more thesis are in the works on this subject. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin
Dear Eugene, What exactly is the point that you want to make in your long, rambling post on 18 June? Telo Mascarenhas lived at the house of Elsa Mendonca in Camurlim for some time. so what does that have to do with the freedom struggle? Personal issues do not concern freedom. Some arsonists and children who Shouted slogans are Pensioned Freedom Fighters asking for more reservations ... 46 years after liberation when the maximum age for employment is 35 years. why should someone BORN 11 years AFTER liberation ever deserve reservation for education AND service? These are beggars, not fighters! Flaviano Dias has already lorded over the Scrutinising Committee set up by Manohar Parrikar for the infamous VCD. Just see how he has depicted Cuncolim in that. Why suddenly remember Dr. Menezes now? Why not in time to add him in the VCD?? Let me quote Dr. Manohar Rai SarDessai's poem Otthra Jun for you: Kitle oxe aile gele Otthra Jun!. Ambea-mullant kuddkuddtta Gavdeacho por ozun! Bhangarachem Goy amchem Kitlem asa pois ozun! Fr. Vasco do Rego sj has rendered it in English [for the book My Song. Ma Chanson. O Meu Canto. Edited by Jorge de Abreu Noronha. New Age Printers. Rs.250/-] thus: So many times it has come and gone: The 18th of June!.. The poor Gavddi-boy Shivers still beneath the mango tree. How far from us, oh how far still That Golden Goa of our dreams On 22 June, 2008, it will be three years since this linguist-poet with a Ph.D in French from Sorbonne University, Paris, to boot . last walked through the streets of St. Inez , Panaji-Goa. Till the end he earned his living, unlike the bootlickers who masquerade as Freedom Fighters and bring the true Freedom Fighters [pensioned or not] to disrepute! The consolidated pension for a FF in Goa is Rs.14,600/- per month [as stated in a recent case against the wife of a FF taking DSSS pension that was exposed by my friend, neighbour and former colleague, Subodh Shetye.]. Imagine petty crooks of yore getting FIVE TIMES or 500% of the salary of a full time contract labour in the Industrial Estates of Goa, toiling for 8 hours a day. I am not talking of just the Gavddi-Kunbi-Velip boys and girls. I have seen graduate degree holders from across the caste spectrum in Goa who earn less than the FF pension of the day ...and their wages are deducted for non-working days! Oh! Brother, do you remember: 18th June? Mog asundi. Miguel Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:48:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Eugene Correia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin Historical data has shown how the Portuguese worked against the nationalists. I am not sure but I think Telo, on his return, was bypassed for the supervisor's post in All-India Radio, Delhi and the post given it to Laxmanrao Sardesai, a Saraswat Brahmin, also a freedom fighter. Did not Sardesai later become editor of Goa Today and then Ambassador to Angola? We have seen on goanet how the little info on Agente Monteiro brought an avalanche of information, including personal views from Monteiro's son. I think Fred wrote a wrote on it for IANS or Goa Today. Similarly, journalists in Goa could do some more digging into Telo's life and also verify what I have written. I had approached Teotonio de Souza to be my guide, if I remember correctly. I lost the opportunity to do my doctorate when the late Dr. George Mark Moraes, the doyen of Goan historians, offered to be my guide. I foolishly went to join a law college after my post-graduation. I have gone through tmany books on Goa's freedom struggle and also the Who's Who (in two volumes) by my friend and ex-college Prakash Shirodkar, the former director of Goa's archives (forget the name of the institution). Another example is the postings on Goan women hockey internationals. I could not remember many names and thanks to some goanetters who provided clarifications and verifications. I have spoken from the heart that some those who I mentioned may have been bit disappointed with the way things turned out after liberation. That's the price one pays. Freedom has its own price. Coming to another relevant topice that of freedom fighters being given monthly pension or monetary rewards or compensation, I do not find anything wrong with it. Many freedom fighters fell on bad days. They suffered a lot. It is for the freedom fighters to decline such offers by saying that they did it for the country and with their hearts. Whatever one may say, June 18 will remain symbolic in more sense than one. It would remain more glorious that the actual Liberation Day. The freedom struggle had its own share of factional groups and most of its history is now written. Yet, more needs to be written and I am not sure if any more thesis are in the works on this subject. Eugene -- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. Miguel Braganza, S1 Gracinda Apts, Rajvaddo, Mhapsa 403507 Goa Ph 9822982676 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin
Once again I write from memory and tidbits from some notes, so corrections are welcome. I would like to add to the debate but not necessarily take up Dr. Colaco's points. However, I must concede that some fnoted reedom fighters suddenly saw that things were not rosy for them and hence they ran away. I am not sure if some living freedom fighters are disillusioned by the current state of Goa or they have taken it in their strides. Sometimes the price of freedom is too high to pay. Dr. Colaco has mentioned his neighbour Jose Inacio de Loyola, one of the fredom fighters who left India and settled down in Portugal. Another notable freedom fightere who left India was Pundalik Gaitonde who went from Portugal to England In both cases, their wives were away from them. To give Loyola's full name, Francisco Xavier Candido Jose Ignacio de Loyola (popularly called Fanchu), his wife Amelia Caesar Loyola stayed back in Bombay. In Gaitonde's case, his wife Edila Giatonde lived in Madeira. The most interesting sage of Goan freedom fighters relates to Dr. Telo Mascarenhas. It is believed that Telo and wife, Dr. Elsa, wanted to settle down in Brazil and also to make a movie of his book, Rama e Sita, and that he was betrayed by his friend, General Paulo Bernardo Guedes, a Portuguese. He fooled Telo by saying that he would be provided a plane by the Portuguese government to fly to Brazil. He flew and as they say rest is history. Telo spent at least ten years in Portuguese jail. According to some, General Guedes was fed the idea by Castilho Serpa do Rosario Noronha of Neura. Noronha had no good feeling for Telo. Telo and wife returned to India, I think, along with Ranade, later on through an agreement between India and Portugal. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin - really?
Eugene Correia wrote: (1) Once again I write from memory and tidbits from some notes, so corrections are welcome. (2) I would like to add to the debate but not necessarily take up Dr. Colaco's points. (3) However, I must concede that some fnoted reedom fighters suddenly saw that things were not rosy for them and hence they ran away. (4) I am not sure if some living freedom fighters are disillusioned by the current state of Goa or they have taken it in their strides. (5) Sometimes the price of freedom is too high to pay. (6) Dr. Colaco has mentioned his neighbour Jose Inacio de Loyola, (7) The most interesting sage of Goan freedom fighters relates to Dr. Telo Mascarenhas. ...Telo and wife returned to India, I think, along with Ranade, later on through an agreement between India and Portugal. == jc's comment I fully accept the unwillingness of Eugene Correia to debate the points I have raised. In many a way, those points are not comfortable for those who have 'socialised' with and benefitted from the corrupt ones. At least, Eugene effectively accepts that he writes from memory and not necessarily on the basis of verified facts. Point #3 above is a slap on the face of somebody like Pundalik Gaitonde, who left in disgust after the Bandodkar switch' in Mapuca post the first Goa Assembly elections. For those who wish to know, Dr. Gaitonde has a brother who lives and works in Poona (now Pune) and his widow in the UK (as did Dr Gaitonde). Fanchu returned to Portugal before 1961. Point # 4 can be answered by Lambert Mascarenhas. He has occasionally produced some weak emissions of frustrations. The fact remains that these Freedom Fighters have been seriously negligent in their conduct. They helped produce this child and then neglected this child. In some other fields they would have to pay child support. Point # 5 is identical to the ones Mario's amigos make every day. Re # 6: Eugene Correia is back to manufacturing facts again. Where exactly did jc state that Fanchu Loyola was his neighbour? It is possible that Fanchu told this to Mr. Correia. Re # 7: Unless there is documentation, this appears to be another portaloo manufactured fact The following questions might help any past, present and future manufacturer: a: What was Telo arrested for? b: What was he in court for? c: What did he say after he was sentenced? d:How did he become a Freedom Fighter? e: Does the Gueddes fooled Telo fable make sense ? f: What was Mohan Ranade arrested and sentenced for? ps: Shutes ...there must have been direct flights from Dabolim to Rio in the 1950s! Cute! jc For further reading: Dec 19, 1961: http://www.colaco.net/4/GoaLib1.htm The Big let down: http://www.colaco.net/1/letdown.htm Jose Inacio Francisco Candido de Loyola http://www.colaco.net/1/FanchuLoyola.htm (There is also a brief note from Fanchu's Montreal based daughter)
[Goanet] June 18 -- Let the Revolution Begin
Goa has been commemorating June 18 as the Revolution Day since its Liberation. The day was the turning point in Goa's freedom struggle. Whenever I pass the now-named Lohia Maidan in Margao, I stand and imagine what may have been the scene that fateful day when Ram Manohar Lohia was arrested along with his comrade friend Dr. Loyola. To me Lohia signified the philosophy of socialism as practiced in India. To my young socialist soul, he was one of the inspiring models. Other socialists who I adored and admired were Nath Pai, Jayaprakash Narayan, Madhu Limaye, Peter Alvares, the first Goan MP, one of Goa's freedom fighters from the Praja Socialist Party (PSP). Alvares had lost a bitter battle to Krishna Menon in the North Bombay parliamentary seat, I think, in 1962. He then took a chance in Goa and won. It was a common belief that Alvares was a Goan but he was a Mangalorean brought up on the ideas of trade unionism. I had the privilege of meeting him and was there for the funeral when his body was cremated at electric crematorium at Chandan Wadi. Goa has come a long way from the days of Alvares. Today, it stands at the crossroads of history. It has progressed undoubtedly, but in the progress there have been many pitfalls. In the current rage of agitations and bandhs against mega-projects, Goa appears to have come of political age. It has borrowed from the lexicon of Alvares and other socialists to take to the road to achieve their demands. Lohia's pragmatism helped Goan freedom fighters to be bold and fearless. Lohia himself was said to be Nehru's chela (student) but then they went different ways in their definition and application of socialist ideas and philosophy. To the end of his life, Nehru remained a Fabian socialist. Current bunch of economists promoting corporate or capitalist economic culture have remarked that Nehru's socialism has failed India. In Goa today, it would be wise to look at the development models from both the socialist and the capitalist perspective. With Corporate India having become a new buzz word in the global business circles, India is on a high horse. Goa could cash in on this new wave, though taking into account the side-effects or impact of any such developments. I have not read the Regional Plan thoroughly but I know from newspaper reports and through discussion on this forum that it is being revised to meet the demands from NGOs. In the awakened state that Goa finds itself now, it is pertinent to remember the significance of June 18. The day awakened Goa to a new movement that ultimately culmitated in Goa become free from Portuguese rule. This June 18 Goan must resolve that the sleeping giant that is the Goan masses must not be allowed to go back to sleep and instead keep rumbling. On one score, I feel that the a big extra NGOs or issue-based organizations that make it a real alphabet soup. I have not really understood if the Goa People's Assembly is a new body. If it is, it comes on the heels of the Goan Sodality for Change (am I right?). Would it be possible for a concerted effort from all these organizations to formulate a combined manifesto? A purpose-based agenda should be the order of the day. On June 18, Lohia thundered in Margoa and the echoes of his words resounded in every nook and corner of Goa. A thunderous voice from all concern could send shivers down the spine of the government, as we have seen the backtracing on SEZs. But more than a combined voice, the ministers must be made to pay for their acts of omission and commission. June 18 should also signal the day for a total revolution against corrupt ministers, panch and other public officials. Then only Goa could be saved and preserved. Eugene Correia
