[Goanet] My take on Goa and Goan identity [ Starting points ]
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 00:48:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Carvalho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > No Mario, the reason "Goans on the street", can't compete with non-Goans, is the same reasons Americans on the street can't compete with the influx of Mexicans and this is a huge election issue, and the same reason that the Lord's Report stated in Britain, a couple of days ago, that immigration has brought "zero benefit" to its economy. > Mario responds: > Hey, Selma, I see your nomadic life now makes you a nakli-Brit from a nakli-American, and about as knowledgeable about both countries!:-)) > Aren't you missing something here? > The non-Goans who are willing to move to Goa and take the many jobs that Goans are unable or unwilling to do, share the same citizenship as Goans. There is no way anyone can legally stop them. Our good friend, Floriano, may be out of business without them. Prices in Goa would skyrocket without them. > In America the debate is about ILLEGAL immigration since most Americans support LEGAL immigration. > If Americans were unable to compete with the 15 million or so illegal immigrants in the USA, how do you explain the relatively low unemployment rates in the USA over the last several years? Obviously the economy was absorbing both. > I think the aging Lords in ole Blighty need to wake up from their brandy-fueled naps and smell the British economy. If it were not for all those dastardly immigrants, Britain's inflation rate would be much higher than it is now, and its economy would falter. There may be no lucrative contract jobs for IT professionals either. > Selma writes: > The only reason you support the unmitigated flow of people into Goa, is because it is a Republican platform in the US, allowing for cheap labour to flood the markets that eventually help Republican big business. > Mario responds: > So, you say that I support an unmitigated flow of LEGAL non-Goan labor into Goa because it somehow helps Republican big business in the USA? H! I wonder how that works in practice:-)) Oh, I get it! American big business can import less expensive fenny and mangoes and coconuts and iron ore from Goa, and make a bundle:-))! > Sounds like a typical win-win capitalist scenario to me, but maybe there is some high-minded socialist angle that I'm not getting:-)) > Selma, I don't know how long you have been gone from the USA - must be a very long time. If you had been here last year you would know that the biggest opponents of ILLEGAL immigration in the USA are the conservative Republicans, who all support LEGAL immigration. The biggest apologists for and supporters of illegal immigration are the liberal Democrats. >
Re: [Goanet] My take on Goa and Goan identity [ Starting points ]
--- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: but by non-Goans of all kinds, including from > other parts of India, with whom the local Goans are > unable or unwilling to compete for jobs and > property. > > -- No Mario, the reason "Goans on the street", can't compete with non-Goans, is the same reasons Americans on the street can't compete with the influx of Mexicans and this is a huge election issue, and the same reason that the Lord's Report stated in Britain, a couple of days ago, that immigration has brought "zero benefit" to its economy. This idea that any number of people can swamp another geographical area without untoward consequences is facile at best. Goa, being part of the Indian Union is not an exception to these unfortunate consequences, it is rather a victim to it because of India's massive population. The only reason you support the unmitigated flow of people into Goa, is because it is a Republican platform in the US, allowing for cheap labour to flood the markets that eventually help Republican big business. selma You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com
[Goanet] My take on Goa and Goan identity [ Starting points ]
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 10:04:32 +0100 (BST) From: JOHN MONTEIRO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > But for one nation's hero, the same person is a terrorist for another nation. > Mario observes: > John, > I would be careful of making this questionable moral equivalency if I were you. The term "terrorist" has a well understood meaning - i.e. those who systematically TARGET innocent civilians as a means of coercion typically to achieve a political objective. Freedom fighters do not target innocent civilians but do target the forces of an oppressive government. > John wrote: > Some nations, but one nation in particular, which came into being at the same time as India's Independence from British rule, the Jewish nation in Israel cry out for recognition of the terrible things done to their peoples whilst not having a homeland of their own, were resident all over the world, were persecuted to point of extinction, so they say dont put the past to one side, in case it repeats itself again in the future. > Mario responds: > I think you may agree that, in addition to past, i.e. the Holocaust when they were systematically targeted for extinction, the Jews are also currently being targeted for extinction by their mortal enemies who have refused to accept the existence of Israel as a Jewish homeland, which has made any attempt at negotiations impossible. One cannot negotiate with someone who does not even recognize one's right to exist. > John wrote: > That may have occured a couple of generations ago, but I was born only 3 years after India's Independence and was eleven & half years old when PORTUGUESE rule finally came to an end in Goa, but the wars & battles that have been fought all over the world have been for the same reason, money. > The link is money... think about it, Goa is currently (actually for a very long time from what I gather on Goanet) is fighting over this, but you don't see the Goan on the street making the profit, so the fight goes on. and on and on... > Lest we forget.. the atrocities done to us, (us ALL) > Mario responds: > I'm not sure I understand what specific atrocities you are referring to that were "done to us, (us ALL)". > Regarding your other comment, some may say that economic development in Goa should be taken advantage of by Goans "on the street" to better themselves as an alternative to migration. I'm sure many of them have done so. However, as I understand it, many Goans "on the street" still prefer to migrate rather than take advantage of the opportunities that have evolved within Goa. We see references on Goanet by employers like Floriano and others, that they find it almost impossible to find Goans who are either able or willing to do the work they need done in conducting their businesses, at the same cost as non-Goans. > I have a Goan friend who is a Civil Engineer who returned from the west several years ago and became a builder in Goa when he saw the potential. He has become personally wealthy beyond his wildest dreams, but reports that he cannot conduct his business without hiring mostly non-Goans, both skilled and unskilled, though he hires every qualified Goan that he can. > In my opinion, the fight in Goa is based on the changing nature of Goa, which is losing its identity because of a) the migration of Goans mostly for economic reasons - i.e. making a better living for their families, and b) the discovery of Goa, this time not by the Portuguese which exploited it for 450 years, but by non-Goans of all kinds, including from other parts of India, with whom the local Goans are unable or unwilling to compete for jobs and property. > The corrupt nature of Goan politicians and bureaucrats is compounding the problem and making it worse. >
Re: [Goanet] My take on Goa and Goan identity [ Starting points ]
Some folk may say forget the past, some may say no, we need to know even if its too awful to contemplate, we must know. Let us set up a Truth & Reconciliation programe to name & shame those who lived through these times & persecuted us. Some of us need to know for personal reasons, some of us dont want things made public because some of us know or have heard the awful truth, their family was in collaboration with the pre-1961 regime. Some nations have ensured the past is never forgotten, for the damage done to their nation, and have put up plaques & named squares & gardens in honour of their dead heroes. But for one nation's hero, the same person is a terrorist for another nation. Some nations, but one nation in particular, which came into being at the same time as India's Independence from British rule, the Jewish nation in Israel cry out for recognition of the terrible things done to their peoples whilst not having a homeland of their own, were resident all over the world, were persecuted to point of extinction, so they say dont put the past to one side, in case it repeats itself again in the future. That may have occured a couple of generations ago, but I was born only 3 years after India's Independence and was eleven & half years old when PORTUGUESE rule finally came to an end in Goa, but the wars & battles that have been fought all over the world have been for the same reason, money. The link is money... think about it, Goa is currently (actually for a very long time from what I gather on Goanet) is fighting over this, but you don't see the Goan on the street making the profit, so the fight goes on. and on and on... Lest we forget.. the atrocities done to us, (us ALL) John Monteiro --- To Goanet - anand virgincar wrote: And the absolutely central point to my arguments that follow is : FORGET WHAT HAPPENED IN GOA PRIOR TO 1961. ---
Re: [Goanet] My take on Goa and Goan identity [ Starting points ]
To Goanet - anand virgincar wrote: >And the absolutely central point to my arguments that follow is : >FORGET WHAT HAPPENED IN GOA PRIOR TO 1961. Dr. Virgincar, I cannot fully agree with your prescription above. Such willful amnesia about our past is dangerous. What if I want to undertake a historical investigation? Events in our times have shown that negationism amounts to no good, that it breeds a reservoir of latent rage. Furthermore, truth is always more robust than comfortable fantasies. Having said that, I think I know where you are coming from. You do not want the current generation of Goans to be held responsible for acts of commission and omission of their forebears. More power to you. With the magnitude and extent of the problems confronting Goa today, you do not want to see us dissipate our energies in squabbles concerning our past. I am with you there. You want hatred out, goodwill in. Count me in, mate. At some point, it is my hope that the knotty issues of the past can and will be discussed honestly and intelligently. Perhaps when there is more distance between 'present' and 'past.' If your thesis is that that point is not now, I would tend to agree. At any rate, it is imperative that good people engage their differences candidly. For if the good people abdicate their responsibility towards honest dialogue, it leaves behind a vacuum into which rush radicals of all stripes. A fertile ground is then created for the ugly Marxist vultures to home in and scavenge on the carrion of communal hatred. Warm regards, r
[Goanet] My take on Goa and Goan identity [ Starting points ]
Dear Goanetters, I am going to venture into some pretty dangerous territory here. What follows is entirely my opinion. It is not meant as a criticism of any individual or community. In fact , many of the points I will make are critical of myself , my religion / caste and the views that I have expressed on Goanet over the last few weeks. While I am trying to be unbiased in what I say , some of the issues I raise may well be tempered by the strong political and other views I hold. Also , I am far from all- knowing and there may well be many factual inaccuracies in my observations.All constuctive criticism is welcome. Rheotorical opposition based on bigotted thinking not so. There has been increasing volume of debate on this forum on how Goa is going to the dogs and how to prevent it. Also, there has been much talk about preserving Goan identity. Before we try to even attempt the above , I sincerely feel we need to do 2 things. 1 ) Stop being in denial about some harsh realities which apply to every one of us ( including myself ) 2 ) Forget the past ( however painful it may have been ) , analyse the present ( however complicated it may be ) and plan for the future. And to do all this , we need a starting point to calculate what is the past and what is the present. I suggest we keep the starting point as 1961 ( simply because we had charge of our destinies from that point ) and analyse things from then on.We keep the period from 1961 to date for analysis. And plan for the future from now on. And the absolutely central point to my arguments that follow is : FORGET WHAT HAPPENED IN GOA PRIOR TO 1961. Which means : # Let us forget the inquisition and all other wrongdoings , some true, others fabricated , that the Portuguese colonial rulers were involved in. We cannot reverse them.And what is the point of harping on what happened many hundred years back. # Let us forget about the religious conversions ,some forced , others voluntary.We cannot ( and should not ) change what happened many hundred years back. We should , however , remember one fact. IF IT WAS NOT FOR THE ACCIDENT OF HISTORY THAT GOA WAS RULED BY THE PORTUGUESE ( UNLIKE MOST OF INDIA WHICH WAS BRITISH ) and IF NOT FOR THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CULTURE WHICH WAS AN INTEGRAL PART OF GOA BY 1961 ( AND ALONG WITH THE WELL PRESERVED HINDU CULTURE MADE FOR A UNIQUE RECIPE ) , GOA TODAY WOULD BE NO DIFFERENT FROM THE CHARACTERLESS SOUTHERN MAHARASHTRA OR NORTHERN KARNATAKA COASTAL AREAS WHICH HAVE SIMILAR GEOPHYSICAL PARAMETERS AND ARE NO LESS IN SCENIC BEAUTY THAN OUR GOA. Let us all ( espescially the Hindutva proponents in Goa ) accept that indisputable fact. Only then, can we move on. ...to be continued. warm and sincere regards, anand _ Get Hotmail on your mobile. Text MSN to 63463 now! http://mobile.uk.msn.com/pc/mail.aspx
