Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
--- On Mon, 2/2/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza wrote: > >Dr.Santosh can learn from me not only about Christianity but also >about the correct interpretation of neuroscientific experiments. > This is obviously a fantasy. Fr. Ivo is not capable of interpreting neuroscientific experiments correctly because he has not even an elementary education and training in neuroscience, let alone how to conduct neuroscientific research. What is also clear is that he simply does not grasp the main point that I have been repeatedly making. My main point is that the interpretations of neuroscientific experiments do not involve claiming any role for supernatural entities such as god and soul, or any kind of supernatural plane of existence. The services of a Christian theologian are not required to interpret of any of our experiments. This is true even for experiments related to religious experiences. For example, Mario Beauregard, the scientist that Fr. Ivo keeps quoting has published two short papers on mystical experiences in Carmelite nuns. The abstract of one of these short papers is given below: QUOTE Neural correlates of a mystical experience in Carmelite nuns. Beauregard M, Paquette V. Département de Psychologie, Université de Montréal, Montréal, Que., Canada. mario.beaureg...@... The main goal of this functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) study was to identify the neural correlates of a mystical experience. The brain activity of Carmelite nuns was measured while they were subjectively in a state of union with God. This state was associated with significant loci of activation in the right medial orbitofrontal cortex, right middle temporal cortex, right inferior and superior parietal lobules, right caudate, left medial prefrontal cortex, left anterior cingulate cortex, left inferior parietal lobule, left insula, left caudate, and left brainstem. Other loci of activation were seen in the extra-striate visual cortex. These results suggest that mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems. UNQUOTE There is nothing intelligent or insightful that Fr. Ivo can say to the authors or to myself on the interpretation that "These results suggest that mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems". Consistent with what I had told you earlier, the authors of the above paper have concluded nothing about god, soul, Christianity, Buddhism, spiritualism or religion. So Fr. Ivo's religious beliefs and any comments he makes on these extraneous issues are of no value to the above neuroscientific interpretation. Moreover, all of Fr. Ivo's comments, as those of the Jesuit priests and the physiology professor he has quoted, are clearly of a very general and platitudinous nature. From my experience I can say that no neuroscientist is naive enough to believe that they give us any specific insight into anything related to the brain. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
From: "Santosh Helekar" Fr. Ivo wrote: Buddhism is a practical way of life. Christianity is a way of life based on the truths revealed by God himself. This pretty much sums up why we cannot learn about anything other than Christianity from Fr. Ivo. ***I am not going to delve here into the problem: whether Buddhism can be considered to be a religion. Historically, it has several nuances. It is certainly a way of life, it is a philosophy of life. My statement comes in the context of Dalai Lama's speech in Washington. He himself insisted that it was more than a religion, a "science of the mind" or an "inner science". Dr.Santosh can learn from me not only about Christianity but also about the correct interpretation of neuroscientific experiments. As far as neuroscience is concerned, my worry is that he is imparting negative knowledge in this public forum. So let me just bring your knowledge into positive territory. **I do not need to know from Dr.Santosh what Science or Neuroscience is. The most important thing to know is that neuroscience has no interest in god or the soul because these are supernatural constructs. Neuroscience is the scientific study of the brain which is a natural biological object. The only conditions under which this field of knowledge has to deal with anything connected with religion is when people claim to have religious experiences. This can happen normally in fully normal pious people or in some abnormal conditions, such as temporal lobe epilepsy. ***Dr.Santosh is missing the point. I did not question its definition which I have been repeating. I question the conclusion derived from those experiments, as I have mentioned. He conveniently overlooks the main statement, which comes from the authority of Dalai Lama, who has written a book, "The Universe in a Single Atom" (The Dalai Lama said there would be no point at which his spirituality and his respect for science would come at such odds with each other. "Buddhism is not so much a religion, but a 'science of the mind' or an 'inner science' . there is much benefit to learning from [scientists'] findings," he explained at the meeting of Society for Neuroscience at Washington on November 12, 2005), as well as from a neuroscientist, Dr.Mario Beauregard. Unfortunately Dr.Santosh is not learning anything "about Christianity" from me. He should learn much more from me. The conclusion is that these "religious experiences" are not 'figments of mind", "hallucinations", "superstitions"... When neuroscientists who are interested in studying what happens inside the brain during these experiences have performed modern tests such as functional MRI, they have found that certain areas of the brain become electrically very active. They have also found differences in brain activation between religious and non-religious people. All this tells us is that such experiences and states of mind are likely to be produced by particular patterns of activity in the brain. ***Thank you for the lesson on neuroscientific experiments. My point is that mystical experiences are not produced by brain, but by the Reality outside the brain. Therefore, they are not hallucinations. Dr.Santosh is doing great disservice to the cause of Science by infering what is wrong, as well as by insulting the Religion. It tells us nothing about the existence or non-existence of any supernatural being or realm. If any neuroscientist tells you that it says something about God or soul or other realities, then he would not be practicing neuroscience. ***Neither can the neuroscientist deny the existence of God and of soul with his experiments in the name of Neuroscience. >>>If he writes a book with such a title, then it is mostly because his publisher wants to create a sensation to sell his book. Either that or the neuroscientist is mixing his religious belief with his science, and misleading the public, which according to me is highly unethical. ***These are unfounded beliefs of the great neuroscientist. These accusations have no scientific ground... Dr.Mario Beauregard speaks of non-material causation of these mystical phenomena, they are not caused by the brain. Dr.Mario Beauregard replies: Q.Are spiritual experiences delusions created by a misfiring brain? A: No. There is no God spot in the brain. Spiritual experiences are complex, like intense experiences with other human beings. There is, however, a mystical state of experience that is not quite the same thing as an emotional state. That does not prove that the mystic contacts something outside herself, but it is consistent with it. Q: Does the brain mediate spiritual experiences? A: Yes, because the brain mediates all experiences of living human beings. That does not mean that the brain creates the experiences. Q: About the God helmet: can we induce a spiritual experience by stimulating the brain magnetically? A: No. As subsequent Swedish research showed, people who believe that they may have a s
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com Fr. Ivo wrote: > >Buddhism is a practical way of life. Christianity is a way of life >based on the truths revealed by God himself. > This pretty much sums up why we cannot learn about anything other than Christianity from Fr. Ivo. As far as neuroscience is concerned, my worry is that he is imparting negative knowledge in this public forum. So let me just bring your knowledge into positive territory. The most important thing to know is that neuroscience has no interest in god or the soul because these are supernatural constructs. Neuroscience is the scientific study of the brain which is a natural biological object. The only conditions under which this field of knowledge has to deal with anything connected with religion is when people claim to have religious experiences. This can happen normally in fully normal pious people or in some abnormal conditions, such as temporal lobe epilepsy. When neuroscientists who are interested in studying what happens inside the brain during these experiences have performed modern tests such as functional MRI, they have found that certain areas of the brain become electrically very active. They have also found differences in brain activation between religious and non-religious people. All this tells us is that such experiences and states of mind are likely to be produced by particular patterns of activity in the brain. It tells us nothing about the existence or non-existence of any supernatural being or realm. If any neuroscientist tells you that it says something about God or soul or other realities, then he would not be practicing neuroscience. No sane and self-respecting neuroscientist would want to risk damage to his professional reputation by claiming that he has uncovered the soul or found an explanation for god or some other such codswallop, as Mario would say. If he writes a book with such a title, then it is mostly because his publisher wants to create a sensation to sell his book. Either that or the neuroscientist is mixing his religious belief with his science, and misleading the public, which according to me is highly unethical. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: "Santosh Helekar" The two news reports circulated by Fr. Ivo contain bogus information and distortions regarding the findings of brain science. **This statement itself is "bogus", because it is not rooted in facts... Contrary to what has been claimed, no mainstream neuroscientist has ever concerned himself with studying the existence of supernatural entities such as God or the soul as part of his/her scientific research. ***Neuroscientists can analyse the phenomena related to spirituality and mysticism, they cannot be concerned directly with "supernatural entities", which they can simply deny, as you are doing. Research shows the neuronal changes due to mystical experience. There are two interpretations: that it is an "hallucination", without a foundation on Reality or that it is openness to the Reality. Dr.Santosh calls it a "figment of brain"... He is wrong to my mind, as well as according to several neuroscientists. The priests, the physiology professor and/or the authors of the news reports appear to be fabricating or falsely speculating and erecting straw men on the basis of their superficial knowledge of what is written in the lay or popular science press ***Dr.Santosh should stop disqualifying all of us as "ignorant", "scientifically illiterate" in the name of his scientific specialization. He knows the data, both in human beings and in birds, but he is interpreting them wrongly. As far as the existence of a natural mind or self as separate and distinct from the brain is concerned, an overwhelming amount of objective neurological evidence indicates that such a substance dualistic scenario is untenable. ***The model of "soul-mind-brain" is not dualistic or tripartite... It is unity and harmony. Science cannot have the last word. In addition to their misrepresentation of scientific findings, I am deeply concerned about the fact that the Jesuit priests are reported to be exhorting people to challenge these findings or view them with caution on the basis of their own pharisaic religious dogmas. ***These Jesuit priests are not challenging the findings, but the wrong interpretation given by some, not all, neuroscientists, like you... Again, Dr.Santosh takes refuge in name-calling: "pharisaic religious dogmas", to which we Christian "illiterate" subscribe totally, mind and heart They also appear to be projecting themselves as speaking for all religions, when the Dalai Lama has clearly contradicted them from the Buddhist standpoint. **Dalai Lama has clearly said that Buddhism is not a "religion", but a "science of the mind". It is an efort to exercise the mind. Dalai Lama also rejected materialistic view. But the Dalai Lama also says science has limits. He rejects so-called scientific materialism -- the idea that consciousness, for example, is no more than a series of chemical reactions in our brains. That wouldn't allow for reincarnation. << Contending that the human soul and spirituality are fundamental to all religions, he insisted that religious believers need to challenge the conclusion that new findings demonstrate that "brain is the soul." **Buddhism is not a religion in its strict sense. It is "science of the mind", as Dalai Lama himself has defined it. Marxism and communism are called "quasi-religions", in the sense that like religions they "worship" the Absolute. On the philosophical level, both Buddhism and modern science share a deep suspicion of any notion of absolutes, whether conceptualized as a transcendent being, as an eternal, unchanging principle such as soul, or as a fundamental substratum of reality. *** There are no contradictions. Dr.Santosh has already shown his power of reasoning when he attributed to Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, statements that God is not real, or to the Academy of Sciences of USA that there is no compatibility between Science and Religion. Buddhism is a practical way of life. Christianity is a way of life based on the truths revealed by God himself. I quote below excerpts in support of my contention that the two priests and the physiology professor (or the news reporters) are pulling wool over the eyes of their audience/readers with regard to their allusions to neuroscientific findings. None of the following claims about neuroscience is true: The priest said in his keynote address that while all human experiences have both p
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com The two news reports circulated by Fr. Ivo contain bogus information and distortions regarding the findings of brain science. Contrary to what has been claimed, no mainstream neuroscientist has ever concerned himself with studying the existence of supernatural entities such as God or the soul as part of his/her scientific research. The priests, the physiology professor and/or the authors of the news reports appear to be fabricating or falsely speculating and erecting straw men on the basis of their superficial knowledge of what is written in the lay or popular science press. These fantasies appear to stem from not being able to understand the interpretations of results of some experiments that map what happens in the brains of people who claim to be having religious experiences. As far as the existence of a natural mind or self as separate and distinct from the brain is concerned, an overwhelming amount of objective neurological evidence indicates that such a substance dualistic scenario is untenable. In addition to their misrepresentation of scientific findings, I am deeply concerned about the fact that the Jesuit priests are reported to be exhorting people to challenge these findings or view them with caution on the basis of their own pharisaic religious dogmas. They also appear to be projecting themselves as speaking for all religions, when the Dalai Lama has clearly contradicted them from the Buddhist standpoint. Here are the contradictory assertions: FR. IVO'S COPIED AND PASTED NEWS REPORT QUOTE Contending that the human soul and spirituality are fundamental to all religions, he insisted that religious believers need to challenge the conclusion that new findings demonstrate that "brain is the soul." UNQUOTE DALAI LAMA'S STATEMENT QUOTE On the philosophical level, both Buddhism and modern science share a deep suspicion of any notion of absolutes, whether conceptualized as a transcendent being, as an eternal, unchanging principle such as soul, or as a fundamental substratum of reality. UNQUOTE I quote below excerpts in support of my contention that the two priests and the physiology professor (or the news reporters) are pulling wool over the eyes of their audience/readers with regard to their allusions to neuroscientific findings. None of the following claims about neuroscience is true: QUOTE The priest said in his keynote address that while all human experiences have both physical and spiritual dimensions, "research in neuroscience could not reduce the soul to the brain." UNQUOTE QUOTE "Today, however, some neuroscientists have claimed to have uncovered the soul and spirituality through brain imaging and mapping, artificial intelligence, computer science" in researching the human brain and mind, the priest continued. UNQUOTE QUOTE Contending that the human soul and spirituality are fundamental to all religions, he insisted that religious believers need to challenge the conclusion that new findings demonstrate that "brain is the soul." UNQUOTE QUOTE "The neuroscientists are contending that God, the human soul and spirituality can be explained in terms of neural networks, neurotransmitters and brain chemistry. And many believers are offended by their notion that God is a creation of the human brain instead of the other way around," he said. UNQUOTE QUOTE He urged religious believers to welcome emerging ideas, but cautioned against "blind acceptance." Although neurological studies could shed light on the mysterious workings of the brain, "any claim to prove or disprove God through neurological studies must be taken with caution." UNQUOTE (The irony of the use of the term "blind acceptance" by a priest who has to operate on the basis of dogma should not be lost on anybody) QUOTE He said the human person cannot be reduced "to super-conscious matter" as asserted by some neuroscientists. Human beings are "not hard-wired for belief in God, but deep down, human beings hunger for God," he said. UNQUOTE QUOTE Such experiences, he added, cannot be researched and quantified on the psychological basis of the neuronal functions of the brain. UNQUOTE Cheers, Santosh --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza wrote: > > ***Totally wrong. Theologians are not "poking their > nose" by speaking of soul, > but scientists are "poking their nose" into > religion and theology by denying soul > in the name of Science. I have already repeated ad nauseam >
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: "Santosh Helekar" Why are these advocates of one particular religion poking their nose into brain science? Why don't they stick to what they are ordained to do - preach their faith to their followers and to those they hope to convert? ***Totally wrong. Theologians are not "poking their nose" by speaking of soul, but scientists are "poking their nose" into religion and theology by denying soul in the name of Science. I have already repeated ad nauseam that the research of scientists is confined to the phenomenal world. Science cannot either prove God and soul or disprove. What is offensive from the standpoint of a universal intellectual pursuit such as science, as well as from the perspective of other religions is that they are advising others to be cautious about scientific findings that contradict their own parochial beliefs. The clear implication is that their own religious beliefs about the natural world take precedence over hard scientific evidence. ***Christianity is not "parochial", it is open to all. It speaks of Man and of the Universe in the light of Revelation. There is not scientific evidence that there is no God, no soul. Contrast this medieval censorship and interference in non-religious affairs based on the dogma of one solitary religion to the open-mindedness and deference shown to science by Dalai Lama who addressed a gathering of neuroscientists a few years back... ***To speak of God and of soul is not to interfere in "non-religious affairs". That is precisely where Science ceases to operate, and Religion reigns. This is not "medieval censorship", it is contemporary thought. On the philosophical level, both Buddhism and modern science share a deep suspicion of any notion of absolutes... http://www.mindandlife.org/dalai.lama.sfndc.html **If Science can dispel superstitions, it is most welcome. Science has its limits. The Church works together with the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. Pius XII has been speaking to scientists on scientific subjects, even about the splitting of an atom and the ethical values, and has been well accepted by them. Dalai Lama, who showed his interest in Science and wrote a book on The Universe in a Single Atom, spoke in November of 2005 at the annual meeting of the Society of Neuroscience on the influence of meditation, which is a mental activity, on the brain's circuitry. Buddhism focuses on mental techniques. But Dalai Lama said that he rejects the so-called "scientific materialism", namely that the idea of consciousness is no more than a series of chemical reactions in our brain. At that meeting Richard J.Davidson, professor of psychology of the University of Wisconsin at Madison, who presented a study on emotions, on brain circuitry, on insular cortex, said that many scientists have shown it is possible to do research on evolution and still believe in God. That is what I have been saying all the time. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com Why are these advocates of one particular religion poking their nose into brain science? Why don't they stick to what they are ordained to do - preach their faith to their followers and to those they hope to convert? What is offensive from the standpoint of a universal intellectual pursuit such as science, as well as from the perspective of other religions is that they are advising others to be cautious about scientific findings that contradict their own parochial beliefs. The clear implication is that their own religious beliefs about the natural world take precedence over hard scientific evidence. Contrast this medieval censorship and interference in non-religious affairs based on the dogma of one solitary religion to the open-mindedness and deference shown to science by Dalai Lama who addressed a gathering of neuroscientists a few years back. This is what he said: BEGIN QUOTE On the philosophical level, both Buddhism and modern science share a deep suspicion of any notion of absolutes, whether conceptualized as a transcendent being, as an eternal, unchanging principle such as soul, or as a fundamental substratum of reality. Both Buddhism and science prefer to account for the evolution and emergence of the cosmos and life in terms of the complex interrelations of the natural laws of cause and effect. From the methodological perspective, both traditions emphasize the role of empiricism. For example, in the Buddhist investigative tradition, between the three recognized sources of knowledge - experience, reason and testimony - it is the evidence of the experience that takes precedence, with reason coming second and testimony last. This means that, in the Buddhist investigation of reality, at least in principle, empirical evidence should triumph over scriptural authority, no matter how deeply venerated a scripture may be. Even in the case of knowledge derived through reason or inference, its validity must derive ultimately from some observed facts of experience. Because of this methodological standpoint, I have often remarked to my Buddhist colleagues that the empirically verified insights of modern cosmology and astronomy must compel us now to modify, or in some cases reject, many aspects of traditional cosmology as found in ancient Buddhist texts. END QUOTE Dalai Lama Please note his acceptance of the fact that scientific findings always trump the ancient scriptures, wisdom and teachings of his faith, and his willingness to revise his religious beliefs in the face of incontrovertible empirical evidence. Here is the link to the text of his entire speech: http://www.mindandlife.org/dalai.lama.sfndc.html Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza wrote: > > Dear Goanetters, > I have been discussing long ago about the dialogue between > Science and Religion. > My answers were rooted in the knowledge of Science and > Religion. > We need to discuss and clarify concepts which may be vital > for us all. > Let us see what we have to say about soul from the > viewpoint of Science and of Religion. > > ***Soul, God Are Beyond Realm Of Neuroscience, Jesuit > Experts Tell Seminar > January 22, 2009 > > LONAVALA, India (UCAN) -- The realities of the soul, > spirituality and > God-experience remain outside the domain of science, > regardless of > neuroscientific advancements, two Jesuit scholars > stressed at a recent Seminar. >
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
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Dear Goanetters,
I have been discussing long ago about the dialogue between Science and
Religion.
My answers were rooted in the knowledge of Science and Religion.
We need to discuss and clarify concepts which may be vital for us all.
Let us see what we have to say about soul from the viewpoint of Science and
of Religion.
***Soul, God Are Beyond Realm Of Neuroscience, Jesuit Experts Tell
Seminar
January 22, 2009
LONAVALA, India (UCAN) -- The realities of the soul, spirituality and
God-experience remain outside the domain of science, regardless of
neuroscientific advancements, two Jesuit scholars stressed at a recent
Seminar.
Since time immemorial, scientists, philosophers and religious
believers have
tried to understand the human soul, Father Job Kozhamthadam told about
200
people, including university professors, researchers and activists
from India
and abroad.
The priest said in his keynote address that while all human
experiences have
both physical and spiritual dimensions, "research in neuroscience
could not
reduce the soul to the brain."
The Jan. 1-5 seminar in Lonavala, near Mumbai, 1,410 kilometers
southwest of New
Delhi, had the theme "Neuroscientific Revolution, the Human Soul and
Spirituality". Indian Institute of Science and Religion (IISR), which
Father
Kozhamthadam started 10 years ago in Pune, a town 50 kilometers
southwest of
Lonavala, initiated the Seminar.
The Institute and Jnana Deepa Vidyapeeth ("Llight of Knowledge
University"), the
Pontifical Seminary in Pune, of which Father Kozhamthadam is
President,
organized the Seminar along with three other Colleges and a
University, all in
Maharashtra state.
Father Kozhamthadam, who earned his doctorate in the History and
Philosophy of
Science in 1986 at the University of Maryland in the United States,
spoke on "The
human soul in a world of science: the neuroscientific revolution and
the problem
of the soul".
The spiritual dimension of human experience has shown itself capable
of making
its own choices and decisions, at times even against the promptings of
the
physical, he said. Religious thinkers and religious-minded
philosophers have
called it the "human soul", which, though closely linked to the body,
is separate
from it and created by God.
"Today, however, some neuroscientists have claimed to have uncovered
the soul
and spirituality through brain imaging and mapping, artificial
intelligence,
computer science" in researching the human brain and mind, the priest
continued.
Some new theories describe the soul as "an emergent phenomenon,"
maintaining
that "when matter becomes very highly complex, certain special
properties
emerge," he explained. They portray the mind or soul "as a collection
of such
properties."
Such assertions challenge the traditional views of Religion and
Spirituality,
Father Kozhamthadam said, adding that such challenges will become more
serious
in the future with further developments in such research.
Contending that the human soul and spirituality are fundamental to all
religions, he insisted that religious believers need to challenge the
conclusion
that new findings demonstrate that "brain is the soul."
The priest clarified that "scientific findings shed valuable light on
the issue,
and hence these efforts must be encouraged," but they leave many
serious
questions unanswered.
He stressed the need for urgent, serious and open-minded dialogue
between
contemporary religion and modern science to uncover the mysteries of
the soul.
Father Kuruvilla Pandikattu spoke on "The self, soul and the Supreme:
the
enchanting exploration into and beyond oneself".
"The neuroscientists are contending that God, the human soul and
spirituality
can be explained in terms of neural networks, neurotransmitters and
brain
chemistry. And many believers are offended by their notion that God is
a
creation of the human brain instead of the other way around," he said.
The Jesuit priest and Associate Director of IISR founded Jnanam, the
Centre for
Science-Religion Dialogue in India, about nine years ago in Pune.
He urged religious believers t
