Re: [Goanet] Religious Persecution in India: Are you sure?

[Santosh Helekar]

Regarding what Joe Lobo wrote below, I have glossed over nothing in relation to 
the subject matter of this thread. Had this thread been about RSS, Modi, BJP, 
etc., and I was asked to comment, I would have told you that these 
organizations and the personalities associated with them are Hindu extremists 
who should never be allowed to come to power. RSS has been from the outset a 
martial Hindu chauvinist organization that has espoused religious fervor and 
violence as means to achieve political power. Religious activists belonging to 
this organization were responsible for the murder of Mahatma Gandhi, even 
though Gandhi himself was somewhat of a Hindu nationalist. Indeed, it is a 
credit to the vision of our founding fathers that despite these types of 
elements and sentiments that have always existed in India, India is a thriving 
free secular pluralist democracy.

Regarding what Josebab wrote below, I wish some independent person would find 
out the actual facts relevant to the questions raised by him below. From my 
knowledge of this issue, I can provide straight answers to some of the 
rhetorical questions, but not all.

>
> 1: what, Basilio, would make any 'murder of any Catholic priest or nun ( or a 
> non religious Catholic person) an act of >Religious Persecution? (Basilio 
> probably did not read my question the first time around)
>

If priests or nuns were murdered in a premeditated manner by a group of 
individuals or the state solely because of their religious beliefs or 
affiliation.

>
> 2: have such events occurred in India ?
>

Offhand, I cannot think of any events involving "Catholic" priests or nuns. I 
can think of one "evangelical Christian" priest and his two sons in 2003. This 
is a task for an independent and impartial fact-finder (IIFF).

>
> 3: are Catholics in certain parts of India being threatened  / assaulted 
> because of their faith?
>

I don't know this regarding "Catholics". But I suspect some new evangelical 
converts are threatened by Hindu extremists to reconvert in the tribal areas 
and some poverty-stricken communities. Another task for an IIFF.

>
> 4: are Catholics in certain parts of India being forcibly re-converted?
>

I think the answer is no with regard to "Catholics". But it is most likely yes 
with regard to newly converted "evangelical Christians". The reason should be 
clear from Basilio's post. It is because no Catholic priest has actively tried 
to convert anyone for the last 60 years in India. Another task for an IIFF. It 
would also be nice to know some hard facts as to what tactics the 
"fly-by-night" evangelical priests that Basilio mentioned were adopting in 
their conversion campaigns. There was a millionaire Keralite pastor in Houston 
who was caught in some kind of scam some years ago. He used to charter a large 
airplane to fly back and forth for his proselytization missions in South India, 
and solicit charitable donations to pay for the cost of the aviation fuel for 
his trip from a rich Houstonian.

>
> 5: is ONE solitary case or Ten or a Hundred cases too few to get worked up 
> about ?
>

I would think that in order to tar an entire nation as a place where religious 
persecution is prevalent there needs to be at least a few cases each month in 
different parts of the country.

>
> 6: are we saying that the Law in some states preventing voluntary conversion 
> from Hinduism, constitutional or even moral?
>

Morality is not an issue in laws banning conversions, as long as the law 
applies equally to people of all faiths i.e. people are not allowed to convert 
to any faith or lack of faith from any other faith or lack of faith. Indeed, 
Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, etc. are, I believe, advocating such a 
practice, especially, with regard to minors. But all such laws would be 
unconstitutional in India, U.S. or any truly secular pluralist country. Some 
IIFF needs to examine the laws that have been passed in India in this regard. I 
hear that they have weasel words that keep them free of constitutional 
challenge.

Cheers,

Santosh

Joe Lobo wrote:
>
>Santosh Helekar  seems  to  gloss over the  fact  that  a Hindu organisation  
>, ie  the  RSS ( Rashtriya >Sevak Sangh )  set up in   India`s 
>pre-independence  days  has  morphed  to a  covert  attacker of non->Hindu 
>activities. While the Goa BJP  government has not shown any  communal 
>tendencies...  we >have  to  dread  a federal BJP  government in 
>Delhi  under PM Narendra Modi  with its   " hindutva " >philosophy  that will 
>allow the   RSS  free  rein to  preach  their  message  of  hatred  towards 
>all   non-Hindu  Indians  be  they  goans  or  tribals or  dalits  who refuse  
>to  bow to the  high  caste >Hindu strict  ideology.
>

On Sat, Feb 15, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Jose Colaco  wrote:
> Basilio: a few Catholic priests and nuns get killed, and that is painfully 
> sad; the murder of a priest or a nun in the hands of a non-catholic is not 
> NECESSARILY an act of per

[Goanet] Religious Persecution in India: Are you sure?

[Marshall Mendonza]

Santosh Helekar had forwarded a post of Basilio Monteiro under the above
heading. In response I had posed a few questions to him as under:

I had asked him to answer the foll questions:

1. Would he classify or term the violence in the Dangs in December 1998 as
acts of discrimination? ( Incidentally, the mastermind of the violence
Swami Assemanand is in the docks for masterminding several other violent
attacks all over India and in the latest issue of Caravan, has implicated
the RSS top brass. Refer: http://caravanmagazine.in/ )

2. Would he classify or term the violence in Kandhamal in 2007/08 as acts
of discrimination? ( a documentary Kandhamal Unresolved was screened
recently at the  Mumbai International Film Festival (MIFF). The film is
available on YouTube:
*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPu0r01wDlA
*

3. Would he classify or term the violence in Karnataka that soon followed
Kandhamal as acts of discrimination? Report of Justice Michael Saldanha
that inquired into the violence is attached. Refer:
http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Religion-communalism/2011/saldanha_report.pdf

4. How would he classify the various Anti-Conversion Acts passed in some of
the states?

5. How would he classify the ideology of the RSS which targets the muslim
and christian minority, out of which flows most of the violence?

Till date there has been no response. Therefore it could mean that he has
no answers or does not wish to engage in a discussion/ debate on what are
essentially his personal perspectives, not necessarily based on facts.

So far as Santosh Helekar is concerned, as a sympathizer/ apologist of the
sangh parivar, who has in the past justified / defended the rapes, killings
and violence against innocent Christians in Kandhamal, his views are on
expected lines and he is the last person we should take seriously on this
subject in this forum.

Regards,

Marshall







*Basilio Monteiro wrote:>>I would like to offer a few random (not
exhaustive) thoughts for consideration about the complex issue of
>"religious persecution" in India. It is a sensitive and provocative issue.
Of course, a few Catholic >priests and nuns get killed, and that is
painfully sad; the murder of a priest or a nun in the hands of a
>non-catholic is not necessarily an act of persecution.>Basilio has
presented a reasonable case on the issue of religious persecution in India.
It should throw some light on why the claims of some Indian and foreign
religious organizations/activists about widespread religious persecution in
India against Christians in particular, are by and large exaggerations and
distortions, although incidents of violent crimes or harassment involving
religious fervor and discrimination do occur and have occurred from time to
time throughout history. - Santosh Helekar*


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Re: [Goanet] Religious Persecution in India: Are you sure?

[Joe Lobo]

 Re : Basilio  Monteiro`s comment." Of course, a few Catholic  priests 
and nuns get killed, and that is painfully  sad; ".this comment  of 
his  smacks of  tacit  acceptance of  coercion to the  point of  murder in 
harassing and  persecution of  Christians  in  India  !  How  many  Hindu 
holy men are  similarly  killed ?
Santosh Helekar  seems  to  gloss over the  fact  that  a Hindu 
organisation  , ie  the  RSS ( Rashtriya Sevak Sangh )  set up in   India`s 
pre-independence  days  has  morphed  to a  covert  attacker of non-Hindu 
activities. While the Goa BJP  government has not shown any  communal 
tendencies...  we  have  to  dread  a federal BJP  government in 
Delhi  under PM Narendra Modi  with its   " hindutva " philosophy  that will 
allow the   RSS  free  rein to  preach  their  message  of  hatred  towards 
all   non-Hindu  Indians  be  they  goans  or  tribals or  dalits  who 
refuse  to  bow to the  high  caste  Hindu strict  ideology.
- Original Message - 
From: "Santosh Helekar" 

To: "estb. 1994! Goa's premiere mailing list" 
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2014 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Goanet] Religious Persecution in India: Are you sure?


Basilio Monteiro wrote:


I would like to offer a few random (not exhaustive) thoughts for 
consideration about the complex issue of >"religious persecution" in India. 
It is a sensitive and provocative issue. Of course, a few Catholic >priests 
and nuns get killed, and that is painfully sad; the murder of a priest or a 
nun in the hands of a >non-catholic is not necessarily an act of 
persecution.




Basilio has presented a reasonable case on the issue of religious 
persecution in India. It should throw some light on why the claims of some 
Indian and foreign religious organizations/activists about widespread 
religious persecution in India against Christians in particular, are by and 
large exaggerations and distortions, although incidents of violent crimes or 
harassment involving religious fervor and discrimination do occur and have 
occurred from time to time throughout history.


To provide a global perspective on this issue, I give below the list of 
countries in which there is actual persecution according to an international 
Christian organization that monitors persecution of Christians around the 
world.


North Korea
Saudia Arabia
Afghanistan
Iraq
Somalia
Maldives
Mali
Iran
Yemen
Eritrea
Syria

Please see http://www.opendoorsusa.org/persecution/about-persecution


The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom which makes lists of 
"countries with particular concern" about religious freedom based on 
complaints made by political and religious activists around the world has 
provided the following list of such countries in its latest report:


Burma
China
Eritrea
Iran
Iraq
Nigeria
North Korea
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Sudan
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Vietnam

Please see: 
http://www.uscirf.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1456&Itemid=1


Cheers,

Santosh

Re: [Goanet] Religious Persecution in India: Are you sure? (posted in the GX Fourm)

[Jose Colaco]

Basilio: a few Catholic priests and nuns get killed, and that is painfully sad; 
the murder of a priest or a nun in the hands of a non-catholic is not 
NECESSARILY an act of persecution.

Santoshbab: Basilio has presented a reasonable case on the issue of religious 
persecution in India. It should throw some light on why the claims of some 
Indian and foreign religious organizations/activists about WIDESPREAD religious 
persecution in India ..

QUESTIONS:

Granting that there might be activist generated hyperbole, 

1: what, dear Basilio, would convert any 'murder of any Catholic priest or nun 
( or a non religious Catholic person) into an act of Religious Persecution? 
(Basilio probably did not read my question the first time around)

2: have such events occurred / been occurring in India ?

3: are Catholics in certain parts of India being threatened  / assaulted 
because of their faith?

4: are Catholics in certain parts of India being forcibly re-converted?

5: is ONE solitary case or are Ten or a Hundred cases too few to get worked up 
about ?

6: are we saying that the (reported) Law in some Indian states preventing 
voluntary conversion from Hinduism, constitutional or even moral?

jc

Re: [Goanet] Religious Persecution in India: Are you sure?

[Santosh Helekar]

Basilio Monteiro wrote:
>
>I would like to offer a few random (not exhaustive) thoughts for consideration 
>about the complex issue of >"religious persecution" in India. It is a 
>sensitive and provocative issue. Of course, a few Catholic >priests and nuns 
>get killed, and that is painfully sad; the murder of a priest or a nun in the 
>hands of a >non-catholic is not necessarily an act of persecution.
>

Basilio has presented a reasonable case on the issue of religious persecution 
in India. It should throw some light on why the claims of some Indian and 
foreign religious organizations/activists about widespread religious 
persecution in India against Christians in particular, are by and large 
exaggerations and distortions, although incidents of violent crimes or 
harassment involving religious fervor and discrimination do occur and have 
occurred from time to time throughout history.

To provide a global perspective on this issue, I give below the list of 
countries in which there is actual persecution according to an international 
Christian organization that monitors persecution of Christians around the world.

North Korea
Saudia Arabia
Afghanistan
Iraq
Somalia
Maldives
Mali
Iran
Yemen
Eritrea
Syria

Please see http://www.opendoorsusa.org/persecution/about-persecution


The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom which makes lists of 
"countries with particular concern" about religious freedom based on complaints 
made by political and religious activists around the world has provided the 
following list of such countries in its latest report:

Burma
China  
Eritrea  
Iran  
Iraq  
Nigeria  
North Korea  
Pakistan  
Saudi Arabia  
Sudan  
Turkmenistan  
Uzbekistan  
Vietnam  

Please see: 
http://www.uscirf.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1456&Itemid=1

Cheers,

Santosh

[Goanet] Religious Persecution in India: Are you sure? (posted in GX forum)

[Santosh Helekar]

Religious persecution in India: are you sure?

By Basilio Monteiro

I would like to offer a few random (not exhaustive) thoughts for consideration 
about the complex issue of "religious persecution" in India. It is a sensitive 
and provocative issue. Of course, a few Catholic priests and nuns get killed, 
and that is painfully sad; the murder of a priest or a nun in the hands of a 
non-catholic is not necessarily an act of persecution.

Let me be upfront: there is religious DISCRIMINATION in India; No doubt, 
religion has been and continues to be an element of exploitation in the hands 
of the "exploiters of power" (inside the religionists' as well as political 
camps). A long view of history teaches us that normally and mostly behind the 
apparent "religious" attacks are the smoldering social and/or economic issues. 
But social and economic issues are difficult to be articulated in a neat and 
easy-to-swallow packages or memes. So religion is an easy invocation. Easy to 
ignite... And fire up the simple folks into a mindless spree of mayhem, 
destruction and pillage.

I do not claim to have done any field study about any recent "religious 
persecution;" however, I happen to have some very thoughtful, mature, and 
well-tempered minds and eyes on various locations in India. I did consult them 
on a number of cases reported as "religious persecution." The real story is 
complex. However, none can be easily classified as "religious persecution," 
despite apparent religious elements, and severe protestations by some NGOs.

One thing must be stated: the religious leaders of the traditional Christians 
(Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.) by and large live in the 
communities where they work not as "outsiders" but as sons and daughters of the 
soil fully invested as citizens of the land. They have, mostly, excellent 
relationship with people on the ground regardless of religion; the services and 
employment opportunities offered by these institutions are highly valued. They 
do not proselytize (the last time it happened was 60 years ago). The people in 
these communities regardless of their religion do not feel threatened by these 
co-religionists, and they live in harmony. The members of the religious 
communities and the individuals associated with them live in their midst. They 
are not fly by night operators. Their brick and mortar institutions are part of 
the local economy and local value.

An unfortunate phenomenon rising in the couple of decades is the transient 
presence of the evangelicals in the villages for the sole and exclusive purpose 
to "baptize" and thus "save" the people (including Catholics, Anglicans, 
Lutherans...). After the fragrant act of "baptizing" these individuals leave 
the community, and move to other greener pastures. Understandably the local 
community gets outraged by this "invasion" (I would be to). In the process and 
heightened anger the poor folks cannot distinguish between the Cross of 
traditional Christians and the symbols of the evangelical Christianity... They 
all look the same...
Much can be written about this.
 
There are economic tensions in almost every village throughout the country.  
The Catholic Church, among many other services, provides education; education 
transforms people’s life. Education provides economic opportunities. The 
Catholic Church also provides education in English, which is the language of 
upward economic mobility. The language of instruction is an issue of serious 
political contentions in many parts of the country, which often times is the 
source of many of these tensions. Good education is a do-or-die situation for 
economic success.
 
A recent study in Maharashtra showed that those with English instruction earned 
30% more than those in vernacular medium. In some places certain groups 
non-privileged by the larger society have benefited from Catholic Church 
educational system. This creates tension, and some exploit these tensions. 
Indians in the villages, by and large, remain illiterate, and thus become 
convenient tools in the hands of unscrupulous politicians. Religion for these 
good folks is the only thing that keeps them together and gives them a sense of 
meaning in their misery. They can be easily roused up by using and manipulating 
what is very dear and near to them. 
 
When "churches" are burned and "Christians" killed, many NGOs automatically 
view that as PERSECUTION."
 
I have a serious problem with these NGOs - supposedly dedicated to fight these 
persecutions. The folks who run these NGOs obviously are good meaning people 
with their heart in the right place. However, they lack the intellectual 
wherewithal to do a thorough analysis of the tensions and of the unfortunate 
events of the ensuing violence. The appeal for money to support their 
cause/activities and their own salaries depend, unfortunately, on riling people 
up about PERSECUTION. Persecution is a powerful word, which when strategically 
deployed ca