Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
I hope Vasant responds to Marshall's flame bait, now that it has been allowed by some Goanet moderator. But knowing a little bit of how Vasant is opposed to baits leading to public smears and guilt by association, he is most likely to ignore it. Cheers, Santosh --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Marshall Mendonza wrote: > > There is a very fine line between Desh Premis and Desh > Drohis-One person's > Desh Premi is another person's Desh Drohi as can be seen in > the case of > Arundhati Roy-a sizable coalition comprising the so called > white wine > drinking intelligentsia, Maoists,Nihilists and Separatists > consider her a > Desh Premi and many others a Desh Drohi-the vast majority > feel that she > should be allowed to rant and rave and is best ignored. > > Response: > May I request Vasant to provide the source/ statistics of > his conclusions on > Arundhati Roy or are these his personal perceptions? Please > clarify. > > Vasant Baliga: > Arundhati has now been booked on directions of a Delhi > court for sedition > against the Republic of India for saying that Kashmir is > not an integral > part of India.Lets see how the case progresses for it is > very pertinent to > many Goans and their views on Goa being part of the > Republic of India. In my > view a Desh Premi is one who loves his Desh and a Desh > Drohi the opposite. > Response: > In which basket does Vasant place the RSS, VHP, Shiv Sena, > HJS, Sanathan > Sanstha, Bajrang Dal - the Desh Premi or Desh Drohi? Please > also give > reasons why. > > Regards, > > Marshall >
[Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Vasant Baliga: There is a very fine line between Desh Premis and Desh Drohis-One person's Desh Premi is another person's Desh Drohi as can be seen in the case of Arundhati Roy-a sizable coalition comprising the so called white wine drinking intelligentsia, Maoists,Nihilists and Separatists consider her a Desh Premi and many others a Desh Drohi-the vast majority feel that she should be allowed to rant and rave and is best ignored. Response: May I request Vasant to provide the source/ statistics of his conclusions on Arundhati Roy or are these his personal perceptions? Please clarify. Vasant Baliga: Arundhati has now been booked on directions of a Delhi court for sedition against the Republic of India for saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India.Lets see how the case progresses for it is very pertinent to many Goans and their views on Goa being part of the Republic of India. In my view a Desh Premi is one who loves his Desh and a Desh Drohi the opposite. Response: In which basket does Vasant place the RSS, VHP, Shiv Sena, HJS, Sanathan Sanstha, Bajrang Dal - the Desh Premi or Desh Drohi? Please also give reasons why. Regards, Marshall
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Santosh, This is the usual diatribe coming from you; full of distortion and quoting out of context. U did not learn English thru 'Wren and martin' looks like. I could give you debating lessons for Rs 3000/- an hour or $100 an hour. What do you prefer. U may also have to pay your airfare! Better do some self study; that will save you time and money. Nascimento. --- On Thu, 2/12/10, Santosh Helekar wrote: > From: Santosh Helekar > Subject: Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots > To: "estb. 1994!Goa's premiere mailing list" > Received: Thursday, 2 December, 2010, 1:35 PM > Hi Vasant, > > I eat beef and pork. But I like fish sold by fisherwomen > who are also looked down upon by some of the same foreign > Goencar, even though these ladies eat beef and pork like me. > I am sure you have noted that the problem that this Indian > is facing is how to transplant this imported Goan bodd from > the dhonpor to its rightful place. > > Cheers, > > Santosh > > P.S. BTW, it is great that you are a regular on Goanet. The > more sense that is injected into a forum like this by people > like you, the better it is. Otherwise, it would remain just > another propaganda forum for cranky marginal ideologies. > > --- On Tue, 11/30/10, Vasant Baliga > wrote: > > Hi Santosh, > > Having unfortunately posted this article and hoping > that we > > would see the > > brighter side of the Goan spirit-I am kind of pained > at the > > level of > > discourse-it appears Santosh Baab-You seem to have a > > serious problem-you may > > consider yourself a Niz Goenkar from Chimbel-but Saiba > do > > you eat Beef or > > Pork?-perhaps for some you don't qualify as a > > Goenkar,unless you do-you are in > > the minds of some "up above" probably a Konknno who > has > > been unable to > > appreciate your missed glorious past as a result of > > accidental or occidental > > birth or whatever and needs some enlightenment.It does > not > > matter what you do > > now. > > So as you look upwards for a Sabaash,you can also look > Down > > Under and wonder on > > what on earth is going on with some of our Goenkars!! > > What ever happened to the Goenkar slogan Ami Sogglen > Ek? > > Dev Sogglen Amka Boren Dis Deum! > > Best > > Vasant > > > > > > > >
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Hi Vasant, I eat beef and pork. But I like fish sold by fisherwomen who are also looked down upon by some of the same foreign Goencar, even though these ladies eat beef and pork like me. I am sure you have noted that the problem that this Indian is facing is how to transplant this imported Goan bodd from the dhonpor to its rightful place. Cheers, Santosh P.S. BTW, it is great that you are a regular on Goanet. The more sense that is injected into a forum like this by people like you, the better it is. Otherwise, it would remain just another propaganda forum for cranky marginal ideologies. --- On Tue, 11/30/10, Vasant Baliga wrote: > Hi Santosh, > Having unfortunately posted this article and hoping that we > would see the > brighter side of the Goan spirit-I am kind of pained at the > level of > discourse-it appears Santosh Baab-You seem to have a > serious problem-you may > consider yourself a Niz Goenkar from Chimbel-but Saiba do > you eat Beef or > Pork?-perhaps for some you don't qualify as a > Goenkar,unless you do-you are in > the minds of some "up above" probably a Konknno who has > been unable to > appreciate your missed glorious past as a result of > accidental or occidental > birth or whatever and needs some enlightenment.It does not > matter what you do > now. > So as you look upwards for a Sabaash,you can also look Down > Under and wonder on > what on earth is going on with some of our Goenkars!! > What ever happened to the Goenkar slogan Ami Sogglen Ek? > Dev Sogglen Amka Boren Dis Deum! > Best > Vasant >
[Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 19:57:17 -0800 Charudatt Prabhudesai wrote :<<< Dotorbab, do you have a problem just with reading between the lines? It appears to me that when you write there is much innuendo, much oblique tilt and in much of what you say there appears to be some concealed WARNING of sorts. Why are you on the defensive so? And, Who are you threatening so constantly? And why? And who is a NIZ goenkar? NIZ means sleep, therefore does it mean nizhlele Goenkars? (supine Goans)...?>>> COMMENT : Mr. Charudatta, I think now my problem has increased to reading and comprehending what is written on the lines also. Maybe I should go in for a microscope instead of lenses. On the other hand, maybe I did not comprehend as the Hindi was more dominant than the Konkani and English in your above post. Can someone who ‘threatens’ be on the ‘defensive’? I have not studied Konkani, so I would like to know which dictionary says ‘Niz’ is ‘supine or sleep’? And finally, I do not see anything derogatory in my previous post. The self styled ‘deshpremis’ always have their hidden agenda, as was obvious in the so called “purification” of the sea. Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
[Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão wrote- COMMENT: I am a wee bit slow in reading in between the lines as I need lenses at this age. But as a Niz Goenkar, I respect the likes and dislikes of every Niz Goenkar, as far as edibles are concerned. It is their prerogative. As far as the glorious past is concerned, I can, and many other Niz Goenkar can see many feigning as “deshpremi” for their own private agenda. Response- I agree that no one should advance a private agenda on Goanet.However there is a very fine line between Desh Premis and Desh Drohis-One person's Desh Premi is another person's Desh Drohi as can be seen in the case of Arundhati Roy-a sizable coalition comprising the so called white wine drinking intelligentsia, Maoists,Nihilists and Separatists consider her a Desh Premi and many others a Desh Drohi-the vast majority feel that she should be allowed to rant and rave and is best ignored. What are one's culinary habits or one's religious beliefs are private and no forum should permit denigration of any religion or culture. Arundhati has now been booked on directions of a Delhi court for sedition against the Republic of India for saying that Kashmir is not an integral part of India.Lets see how the case progresses for it is very pertinent to many Goans and their views on Goa being part of the Republic of India. In my view a Desh Premi is one who loves his Desh and a Desh Drohi the opposite. Regards Vasant Baliga
[Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
On Tue Nov 30 08:18:14 PST 2010 Vasant Baliga vabaliga at yahoo.com wrote :<<<… it appears Santosh Baab-You seem to have a serious problem-you may consider yourself a Niz Goenkar from Chimbel-but Saiba do you eat Beef or Pork?-perhaps for some you don't qualify as a Goenkar, unless you do-you are in the minds of some "up above" probably a Konknno who has been unable to appreciate your missed glorious past as a result of accidental or occidental birth or whatever and needs some enlightenment. It does not matter what you do now….>>> COMMENT: I am a wee bit slow in reading in between the lines as I need lenses at this age. But as a Niz Goenkar, I respect the likes and dislikes of every Niz Goenkar, as far as edibles are concerned. It is their prerogative. As far as the glorious past is concerned, I can, and many other Niz Goenkar can see many feigning as “deshpremi” for their own private agenda. Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
--- On Tue, 11/30/10, Carvalho wrote: > > The role models have been there all along in our society - some small >time > heroes and others big, but our Goan (both Catholic and Hindu) society >has > always been one of tolerance and progressive, liberal thought and it >bothers > me no end, that conservatism is making a comeback. > I have no idea to what extent Goan society has bred the intolerant and regressive nascimentality, and to what extent oriental conservatism in Goa is a backlash against it. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Carvalho wrote: [1] We Goans must concentrate on our own future and this future must involve an evolution of our thinking and a tolerance for divergent viewpoints. [2] it bothers me no end, that conservatism is making a comeback. jc comment: re #1: Well said! re #2: Is it conservatism or Is it a bhel-puri of Communalism, Hate and Extremism that is making a comeback? jc
[Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Santosh wrote- I hope there is no more than a few such beings anywhere, including down under, who look down on other Goans. I am certain that Selma is not among them. I would also like to believe that not a single one of the Goanet moderators and administrators belongs to this group. Cheers, Santosh Response- Hi Santosh, Having unfortunately posted this article and hoping that we would see the brighter side of the Goan spirit-I am kind of pained at the level of discourse-it appears Santosh Baab-You seem to have a serious problem-you may consider yourself a Niz Goenkar from Chimbel-but Saiba do you eat Beef or Pork?-perhaps for some you don't qualify as a Goenkar,unless you do-you are in the minds of some "up above" probably a Konknno who has been unable to appreciate your missed glorious past as a result of accidental or occidental birth or whatever and needs some enlightenment.It does not matter what you do now. So as you look upwards for a Sabaash,you can also look Down Under and wonder on what on earth is going on with some of our Goenkars!! What ever happened to the Goenkar slogan Ami Sogglen Ek? Dev Sogglen Amka Boren Dis Deum! Best Vasant
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Charu wrote: Like any reasonable man in 2010, I am not unenthusiastic to embrace the Portuguese as world citizen, but the political reality makes it impossible for me to do it unconditionally. I may not put conditions when India regains its lost place among the leaders of the world, for I believe that we are second to none. The Indian term is addwiteeya. -- RESPONSE: Dear Charu, If only all discussions on goanet and Goa would end with the warm embrace of conciliation :-) I think discussions about Portugal are academic not only to Goa but indeed to the world, being the emasculated power that they eventually became. We Goans must concentrate on our own future and this future must involve an evolution of our thinking and a tolerance for divergent viewpoints. The role models have been there all along in our society - some small time heroes and others big, but our Goan (both Catholic and Hindu) society has always been one of tolerance and progressive, liberal thought and it bothers me no end, that conservatism is making a comeback. take care, Selma
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
--- On Mon, 11/29/10, Nascy Caldeira wrote: > > This is the reason I at least, Stand Tall and look down on all other >Goans! > Sabash! > I hope there is no more than a few such beings anywhere, including down under, who look down on other Goans. I am certain that Selma is not among them. I would also like to believe that not a single one of the Goanet moderators and administrators belongs to this group. Cheers, Santosh --- On Mon, 11/29/10, Nascy Caldeira wrote: > Nascy's opinion: > > Selma, it is not just 'nostalgia' as such; but the very > essence of our 'east-west' fusion culture, the > inculturation. Generations are born with it, and do not even > know that it is fusion culture, at first hand. There are > though many amongst Catholics like the Kunbi's and > Gawdi's etc who are not fully aware of and or exposed > to this very special culture. > > Therefore when typical Goan people go to places like > these,it is because we relish the type of food, along with > the ambiance. Also there are many of post '61' era who are > not able to cook and serve and create the right ambiance in > their own homes, or they do have the time for it. > I reckon we go for both nostalgia, and the ambiance and the > gormet food, compared to Kamat's Idli and Dosas, and fried > (into charcoal) vegetables. > > All that makes the Goan Christian culturally very special, > even though some may have lost Faith; all still love the > culture all round. > This is the reason I at least, Stand Tall and look down on > all other Goans! Sabash! > > Selma: > > > When I look at the politics > > behind it, it is > > nothing more than anger directed at Catholic Goans in > > disguise. > > > Nascy agrees fully and truly. > > We must campaign against it and WIN, rather than only > against the Dirty Saffron Evil (Fascist pigs) culture, but > also against the non saffron guys, who are the ones in real > disguise! > > Viva Goa, The True Spirit of Goa, not the 'Gomantak' that > is being imposed on us, the enlightened people. > Proudly Goan. > > Nascimento Caldeira. > (Nascimentation is anytime better than Santosponn, the > 'primitive' show!) >
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Eric pinto writes: Here is an interesting stat for Santosh, Thelma and Charu: the stream of young and not so young catholic Goans who were employed by my mother to perform domestic chores fifty years ago were never literate. Their public display of "christianity" was limited to forty minutes of worship in a language none of understood - Latin. I believe the precepts of that religion did not influence their conduct or ethics. Like the good folk in our Rolly's favourite - 'Annie Get Your Gun,' they simply did 'what comes naturally.' The implication of the existence of a 'Portuguese' lifestyle and ethos, as applied to common village existence is a misleading canard. Response: Eric, Incase you missed it in the past 5 years, my name is Selma. I think we can safely assume that the vast majority of Goans were not your mother's domestics. The vast majority of Goans were poders, rendeiros, tarvottis, clerks in some measure, kharvis (fisherfolk) and agricultural labour. And they did not lead destitute lives. Most of them were mundkars, so they lived in their own houses. Many of them sent their children to at least one to two years of schooling. Many read Konkani in Romni-script. So they were quite capable of imbibing through the printed word. Secondly, even if they didn't understand the mass they attended, they had thoughts and discussions about this God they worshiped. They didn't worship in a theological and ideological vacuum. People are not so intellectually bankrupt at the village level, that they go about their existence without thinking about it or being conscious of it. So what were they thinking about when they sat on the floors of those baroque churches, listening to choirs and looking at portraits of Caucasian saints? Presumably there were thoughts entering their minds. Not just the buzz of static or how to stuff vinegary choritzo sausages. So it is possible, that culture was imbibed through discussion and exposure. How patronising it is to assume that culturization is a result of mere economics. So if we extrapolate that to all societies, we would have two distinct cultures existing in every given society. Two fundamentally differing ethoi in existence at every given point of time, in every known human society based on disparity of economics. But we know that is not an accurate representation of how societies form and function. And by the way, canard is a big word. Best, Selma
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Well composed and a befitting responce, Selma. Nascy. --- On Mon, 29/11/10, Carvalho wrote: > "This constant harping against the Portuguese", seems to be > > post-liberation sentiment of Goans(for this "harping" was > possible only after the liberation of Goa!)against the > Chauvinistic, hopelessly open hankerings of a minority for > > the erstwhile & undemocratic foreign rule. > The reason why it still hankers after the evil Portuguese > rule > is obvious. > > In democratic India it is not possible for the Feudal elite > > to satisfy their Feudal tendencies. > --- > RESPONSE: > Dear Charu, > In that case, it is not a "harping against", it is a > hankering for. > > I don't think your assessment that it is just a few "elite > families" in Goa that > are sympathetic to the Portuguese is correct. These few > mythological "elite" > families in Goa have been blamed for everything from > pro-Portuguese, > anti-nationalist sentiments, to subjugating the masses, > usurping their land, > possibly being responsible somehow for World War II and > currently responsible > for global warming with their indiscriminate, middle-class > (now reduced) lives. > > > I largely maintain that the changes taking place at the top > were permeating to > the bottom and that Goan society was far more homogenised > and egalitarian than > it is given credit for, and definitely far ahead of its > times in this respect > when compared with the rest of the Indian sub-continent. > > Ergo, I also make the assumption that the sympathy for > things Portuguese is much > more wide-spread than just these "few elite families." It > has become politically > incorrect in our times, to credit any foreign society with > having influenced us > positively. Neo-colonialism is a dirty word ofcourse and so > is Orientalism. But > leaving aside isms and schisms, the fact is the > relationship between the > captured and capturer doesn't always remain stagnant in > human societies. > Best, > Selma
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
--- On Mon, 29/11/10, Carvalho wrote: > Maria's restaurant serves the most > delicious food at the back of her quaint old > Portuguese-Goan styled house. > We go there often, more for the nostalgia than the food. > Why do we Catholic > Goans need this nostalgia? Nascy's opinion: Selma, it is not just 'nostalgia' as such; but the very essence of our 'east-west' fusion culture, the inculturation. Generations are born with it, and do not even know that it is fusion culture, at first hand. There are though many amongst Catholics like the Kunbi's and Gawdi's etc who are not fully aware of and or exposed to this very special culture. Therefore when typical Goan people go to places like these,it is because we relish the type of food, along with the ambiance. Also there are many of post '61' era who are not able to cook and serve and create the right ambiance in their own homes, or they do have the time for it. I reckon we go for both nostalgia, and the ambiance and the gormet food, compared to Kamat's Idli and Dosas, and fried (into charcoal) vegetables. All that makes the Goan Christian culturally very special, even though some may have lost Faith; all still love the culture all round. This is the reason I at least, Stand Tall and look down on all other Goans! Sabash! Selma: > When I look at the politics > behind it, it is > nothing more than anger directed at Catholic Goans in > disguise. > Nascy agrees fully and truly. We must campaign against it and WIN, rather than only against the Dirty Saffron Evil (Fascist pigs) culture, but also against the non saffron guys, who are the ones in real disguise! Viva Goa, The True Spirit of Goa, not the 'Gomantak' that is being imposed on us, the enlightened people. Proudly Goan. Nascimento Caldeira. (Nascimentation is anytime better than Santosponn, the 'primitive' show!)
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Charudatta writes: "This constant harping against the Portuguese", seems to be post-liberation sentiment of Goans(for this "harping" was possible only after the liberation of Goa!)against the Chauvinistic, hopelessly open hankerings of a minority for the erstwhile & undemocratic foreign rule. The reason why it still hankers after the evil Portuguese rule is obvious. In democratic India it is not possible for the Feudal elite to satisfy their Feudal tendencies. --- RESPONSE: Dear Charu, In that case, it is not a "harping against", it is a hankering for. I don't think your assessment that it is just a few "elite families" in Goa that are sympathetic to the Portuguese is correct. These few mythological "elite" families in Goa have been blamed for everything from pro-Portuguese, anti-nationalist sentiments, to subjugating the masses, usurping their land, possibly being responsible somehow for World War II and currently responsible for global warming with their indiscriminate, middle-class (now reduced) lives. This makes some broad sweeping assumptions, which I have always contested. One it assumes that other "classes" in Goa lived in a sort of social and economic stupor. That they existed in absolute apathy to what was going on in Goa, and remained culturally unchanged, their entire consciousness unaffected and virgin to the extent that it recognised nothing beyond the Bijapur dynasty. I largely maintain that the changes taking place at the top were permeating to the bottom and that Goan society was far more homogenised and egalitarian than it is given credit for, and definitely far ahead of its times in this respect when compared with the rest of the Indian sub-continent. Ergo, I also make the assumption that the sympathy for things Portuguese is much more wide-spread than just these "few elite families." It has become politically incorrect in our times, to credit any foreign society with having influenced us positively. Neo-colonialism is a dirty word ofcourse and so is Orientalism. But leaving aside isms and schisms, the fact is the relationship between the captured and capturer doesn't always remain stagnant in human societies. (I can quote here in great detail the relationship between West Indians and the British). The latter becomes more humane and recognises his moral responsibilities and the former becomes more dominant as he gains access and maneuvering within his captivity. The interaction between the two changes and what emerges may be an entirely different relationship which is much more complex. Just wanting to negate this relationship, to be politically correct is not going to diminish either its intensity or its complexity. Best, Selma
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots (Carvalho)
Charudatt Prabhudesai wrote: I do not expect a great many gawde's and kundbies - although they may be Catholics - to share this pro-Portuguese sentiment. jc COMMENT: Unless I conducted a valid survey, I would not venture to speculate beyond the proverbial '45%'. . However, I cannot fathom anyone (sensible) preferring any form of subjugation esp the one from which there is never going to be any liberation, ever. I refer to the Caste System. Wonder what the Gawdes and Kunbis (whatever their faith) have to say about that? If I was a Gavde or a Kunbi, who do you believe I would be "pro" - the one who dispossessed me of my land and made me a outcaste, or the one who took the land away from the one who lorded (and still lords) over me? ps: Sometimes, one is pro-that because one is actually anti-this. jc
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots (Carvalho)
Goanet appears to be evenly balanced between pro-Portuguese, anti-Portuguese, pro-India and anti-India sentiments. As far as religion is concerned, however, it is a little bit more anti-Hindu, anti-Muslim and anti-secular than anti-Christian and anti-atheistic. Cheers, Santosh --- On Sun, 11/28/10, Charudatt Prabhudesai wrote: > > > QUOTING Selma: > "...Because for 4 centuries, one way or another the lives > of Catholic Goans have been entwined with that of the > Portuguese. > To pretend otherwise is ridiculous. And while I do > understand that > the history of Hindu Goans has been divergent, and we have > to mindful > of that, they too should be mindful of our sentiments. This > constant > harping against the Portuguese, is nothing but a sublimated > sore."... > > > RE: > The pseudo-conclusive quote above from Selma is too loose > a generalisation to be true. It seems just as biased as > the > quite inappropriately suggested 'Hindu sentiment'. > I have known some Hindus who, ensorcelled by the > Portuguese, > were sympathetic to them. It is safer to say that a > certain > faction of Goan society-in-G was sympathetic to the > Portuguese cause.(which was to subjugate and rule the > indigenous > people in order to expand their imperialist order) > While the Hindu sentiment is a result of "a sublimated > sore" - > (what is that supposed to mean, I wonder) - the > pro-Portuguese > praise of the Goan Catholic is actually the sentiment of a > > minority of Goan Elite. I do not expect a great many > gawde's > and kundbies - although they may be Catholics - to share > this > pro-Portuguese sentiment. >
[Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots (Carvalho)
QUOTING Selma: "...Because for 4 centuries, one way or another the lives of Catholic Goans have been entwined with that of the Portuguese. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous. And while I do understand that the history of Hindu Goans has been divergent, and we have to mindful of that, they too should be mindful of our sentiments. This constant harping against the Portuguese, is nothing but a sublimated sore."... RE: The pseudo-conclusive quote above from Selma is too loose a generalisation to be true. It seems just as biased as the quite inappropriately suggested 'Hindu sentiment'. I have known some Hindus who, ensorcelled by the Portuguese, were sympathetic to them. It is safer to say that a certain faction of Goan society-in-G was sympathetic to the Portuguese cause.(which was to subjugate and rule the indigenous people in order to expand their imperialist order) While the Hindu sentiment is a result of "a sublimated sore" - (what is that supposed to mean, I wonder) - the pro-Portuguese praise of the Goan Catholic is actually the sentiment of a minority of Goan Elite. I do not expect a great many gawde's and kundbies - although they may be Catholics - to share this pro-Portuguese sentiment. "This constant harping against the Portuguese", seems to be post-liberation sentiment of Goans(for this "harping" was possible only after the liberation of Goa!)against the Chauvinistic, hopelessly open hankerings of a minority for the erstwhile & undemocratic foreign rule. The reason why it still hankers after the evil Portuguese rule is obvious. In democratic India it is not possible for the Feudal elite to satisfy their Feudal tendencies. Their minion, the mundkar, has earned the right to debate with the Bhatkar, by virtue of having THE RIGHT TO EQUALITY safeguarded under the constitution of The Free and Democratic India. Personally, I respect anyone's need to befriend a foe masquerading as a friend, yet when the argument is based on "Because for 4 centuries, one way or another the lives of Catholic Goans have been entwined with that of the Portuguese." etc. I am alarmed. It is not only the Catholic Goans whose lives have been entwined, but also the Hindus and other minorities of the secular state. I do not think that there was a great deal of antagonism between Hindus and Christians in Goa earlier. I would like to believe that there still is an admirable fellow-feeling between the two. Charudatta Prabhudesai
Re: [Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Carvalho wrote: Although I never knew she was a descendant of Vasca da Gama, it's easy to see, she is a mestico. jc COMMENT: A descendant is not necessarily a mestiço, esp if he/she is a 'descendente'. The term 'mestiço' or mestizo (Spanish), I believe, denotes "of mixed race". The term 'descendente' denotes, I believe, nil admixture. Having said that, I believe that more than 45% (to use a Heraldo number) of the present day residents of the Indian subcontinent - are 'mestiço' , A good percentage (let's say 45%) of the non-'mestiço' ones are classified as Scheduled Tribes and OBCs.
[Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
Maria's restaurant serves the most delicious food at the back of her quaint old Portuguese-Goana sytled house. Before, her now late husband used to run the place. Maria is the patron of yore. She'll come to your table personally no matter how crowded the place is, and ask if everything is alright. Although I never knew she was a descendant of Vasca da Gama, it's easy to see, she is a mestico. We go there often, more for the nostalgia than the food. Why do we Catholic Goans need this nostalgia? Because for 4 centuries, one way or another the lives of Catholic Goans have been entwined with that of the Portuguese. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous. And while I do understand that the history of Hindu Goans has been divergent, and we have to mindful of that, they too should be mindful of our sentiments. This constant harping against the Portuguese, is nothing but a sublimated sore. When I look at the politics behind it, it is nothing more than anger directed at Catholic Goans in disguise. Best, Selma
[Goanet] VASCO'S FAMILY- Portuguese blood, Indian roots
http://www.timescrest.com/society/portuguese-blood-indian-roots-4064 Meet Maria Margarida Noronha e Tavora, a 13th generation descendent of Vasco da Gama, who now lives in Raia and runs a restaurant. The night Spain's David Villa slotted the ball into the Portugal goal and ended the latter's World Cup bid, in her rambling Raia house, Maria Margarida Noronha e Tavora turned off her television with a heavy heart. In Goa, where the Portuguese team has a legion of fans, Margarida shares more than just emotional bonds with the country. She traces her ancestry to the discoverer of the sea route to India - Vasco da Gama. "We knew we were of Portuguese descent, " says Margarida. "That we had Vasco da Gama as one of our ancestors we came to know much later. Papa used to go to the Viceroy's Arch where there is a statue of Vasco da Gama and tell us that he was an ancestor, but we never took it seriously, " she adds. Margarida's father, the late Augusto de Noronha e Tavora, popularly known as Lube in Goa, was known as a football aficionado, but few knew that he was one of the members of the 13th generation of Vasco da Gama's descendents. It was Margarida who, on a trip to Portugal, decided to draw her family tree and confirmed the connection. According to the book Vasco da Gama, Notas historicas e genealogicas (Vasco da Gama, historical notes and genealogy), the 11th generation of one branch of the Portuguese explorer's family settled in Goa. D Lourenco Carlos Bernardo de Noronha was born in Goa on December 4, 1843. His second son, D Francisco Bernardo de Noronha e Tavora was the father of Augusto and hence the grandfather of Margarida. According to the framed family tree in Margarida's house, D Lourenco de Noronha, grandfather of Lourenco Carlos, was a governor of Goa. There are not too many descendants of the Portuguese living in Goa today. Many left days before liberation, and others over a period of time. The Tavora family - mother Imelda with children Maria Margarida, Francisco Bernado, Maria Ana, Carlos Manuel and Luis Filipe - too took a flight to Portugal and landed in Lisbon the day the Indian army liberated Goa. "The Portuguese government was evacuating ladies and children and my mother took us children with her to Portugal. I was 11 then and my youngest brother was about two. But we returned within some four months to Goa, " recalls Margarida, who now runs the popular restuarant 'Chef Fernando's Nostalgia', which was started by her husband, the late Fernando Costa. At a time when many Goans are eyeing Portugal as a gateway to Europe, Margarida and her siblings are well-entrenched in India. "We could have gone to Portugal and got Portuguese passports as many are now doing, but we have integrated very well here. The blood in the veins, however, can't be changed, " Margarida says. That's something the few descendants of the Portuguese still in Goa - who are very much part of contemporary society - feel.
