Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
Dear Gabriel, others, There's a fascinating Portuguese study, just become public, that throws an incredible light on that episode and others connected with the events of December 18, 19, 1961. Contrary to what you say about Indian fighter jets being scrambled to shoot down the fleeing refugee plane, the Portuguese researches claim the Indian Air Force pilots had explicit instructions not to interfere with the flight. I'll post more on these episodes later in the week. Regards to all, Victor --- On Wed, 10/24/12, Gabriel de Figueiredo wrote: From: Gabriel de Figueiredo Subject: Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2012, 9:31 AM As far as I am concerned, this is the same kind of propaganda paraded by the likes of "military intelligence" that had thousands of Portuguese troops all lined up at the borders of Goa, curfews, shoot-at-sight orders, supersonic fighters at Dabolim, etc. Reality was quite different, quite the opposite in fact. The thousands of Portuguese troops in all of Goa, Damao & Diu numbered to less than 3000, there were no curfews, no shoot-at-sight orders, no supersonic fighters ever visited Goa (at least as far as I know). There was law and order not by force, but out of sheer habit and a strong moral conscience, which was probably the result of 450 years of Portuguese inculturation. Post invasion, there were curfews, people were indeed shot at by the Indian soldiery who shouted orders in Hindi (few Goans understood Hindi at the time). Bells tolled all over Goa over the death of a young boy who was shot dead at point-blank range, in broad day-light (according to Leo Lawrence). Time magazine has a contemporary article on pre and post invasion. Dabolim was, of course, pot-holed with bomb craters, and despite these craters (which were quietly patched up in the fading light of the evening, according to Mario Cabral e Sa), the last TAIP flight took off overladen with the last of the families of the Portuguese in the dead of night. The Indian airforce, according to Bharat-Rakshak, was scrambled to give chase, but the TAIP flight flew low to avoid radar detection, and Bharat Rakhak records that the plane could not be located by the Indian airforce. My personal experience was that I went to kindergarten right up to 14th December, the day when the school-bus didn't turn up. My mum and I went to the school (at Miramar, where cuurently a Lodge is located) by cab, and were told "eles todos voltaram a Europa" - they've all gone back to Europe). That afternoon saw scores of trucks laden with luggage and personal belongings of the portuguese soldiers and their families going down from Altinho in Pangim (there was a large barracks complete with a swimming pool, next to the Bishop's residence, and is now occupied by the Indian military), and by evening no taxis was to be found as they were commandeered by the Portuguese soldiers (in lieu of communications facilities, I understand, from an article by Gen. Carlos Azaredo). My Dad and I had to go the Hospital Escolar (as the old GMC hospital at Campal used to known by) by horse-carriage to visit my aunt who had delivered a baby girl on the 12th Dec. On the 18th Dec, the first thing I knew was strange-looking planes (looked like Sea Vixens) flying overhead (they were on their way to bomb Bambolim, a purely extravagant exercise from my point of view). All the neighbours came to our place to discuss what was happening. At around 4:00 pm in the afternoon, the archbishop went down the road from Altinho in miltary uniform (if I remember correctly), in a jeep, and saluted Dad as they drove past. Soon after, there was a thunderous noise, and my Dad remarked "Lá vai a ponte de Banastarim" - there goes the Banastarim bridge. Thereafter we all went to the Coelho's house opposite ours, and every-one started praying the rosary. We were there until maybe 7:30pm. It was darkness everywhere, and as far as I can recollect, it was the first time Panjim was in total darkness. The next day saw disorder at Palácio Idalcão, where Dad and I saw someone (probably Prabhakar Sinari) was ordering the burning of the furniture, pictures and documents, right in front of the statue of Abbe Faria. We quickly came back home, and noticed planes circling overhead. Now I know that the planes were cicrling Mormugão, where Gen Vassalo e Silva and his last troops were being rounded up. Interestingly, an article on Navhind Times of 20th October last, says "And when Goa was liberated from the Portuguese rule by the Indian Army on December 19, 1961, the number of Goan families who migrated to Portugal was so large that it almost gained proportion of an exodus." Now why would they, the Goans, do that? You decide. Gabriel. ===
Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
Yet another interview by someone who apparently was in the thick of things, which would go some way to refute Mr Kaul re the state of conditions prevailing pre-invasion ... GERARD DE SOUZA ger...@herald-goa.com PANJIM: The Dawn of December 19, 1961 was a very uncertain day for Prem Prakash. Waking up early at a makeshift army camp along the Goa border with Belgaum , this field correspondent-cum-TV camera man, then working for the Viznews (Today Reuters TV) didn’t know whether he would live to see the end of it. Prakash along with other journalists were moving along with the Indian Army in a bid to document "the Indian invasion of Goa" and had camped along with the army at the border. "I was at that time in Belgaum , but from there decided to move to the border. However, suddenly on the day of Liberation, the army decided to impose severe restrictions on media coverage as it was expecting full-fledged battle. However, I and a few other journalists took the risk and crossed the border in to Goa on our own", Prem recalls. Prem was covering the diplomatic tussle between India and Portugal in the years preceeding the invasion from Delhi and considering the heightened tensions and rumours of war, he had shifted to Belgaum to be closer to the action. However, Prem admits that he along with "senior officers of the Indian Army" were taken aback by the peacefulness of Goa . "On entering Goa, we found that the place was very peaceful. The Portuguese had left land mines on many areas of the roads leading to Panjim. But the local people who had seen the Portuguese planting the land mines had marked those areas by placing small flags and notifiying Indian soldiers about their presence. Senior officers were surprised to find us there but were at the same time happy that we came", Prem said. It was then that Prem says he first fell in love with the State. "I then stayed at Goa ’s best Hotel, Hotel Mandovi, which had a beautiful open deck restaurant, facing the riverfront. Panjim was a very clean and well looked after city, not like it is today. The people everywhere were very peaceful and were happy that the liberation had ended without much bloodshed", Prem said. "Even the Dabolim airport, though one of the smallest airports of the country, was better than many of the airports of Indian cities at that time", Prem says. He also recalls the Officers of the Indian Army going on a shopping spree. "Many people who had come to Goa at that time including army officers did a lot of shopping. At that time there were severe import restrictions to India , but in Goa a lot of European goods were freely available", he says. Prem was the only TV cameraman in the State at that time and all the footage recorded of the liberation was taken by him and is proud to have covered the biggest headline of the day right across the world. Today Prem, is retired as a full time journalist but continues to be a contributor and columnist. He lives in Delhi , but owns a hotel in Goa .
Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
member of the Brown University (http://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2005-06/05-107.html) class of 1949, joined the New York Times in 1950 as a correspondent in the Paris bureau. In 1953, at the age of 23, he established a bureau in Ankara, becoming the Times' reporter in Turkey, then moved to Moscow. He resigned from the Times and made the move to television in 1956, taking over NBC's Cairo bureau. NBC sent him to New Delhi in 1960, to Germany in 1964, and finally to Hong Kong as bureau chief. > >From: Roland Francis >To: "'Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!'" >Sent: Tuesday, 23 October 2012 12:03 PM >Subject: Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa > >What can I say JC. > >I was quite out of the loop when it happened, a middle school kid really. >... >The real facts got lost in mere form and in the din and cacophony of the >time. The real facts and substance of the matter were well and truly drowned >and hence my bewilderment.
Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
As far as I am concerned, this is the same kind of propaganda paraded by the likes of "military intelligence" that had thousands of Portuguese troops all lined up at the borders of Goa, curfews, shoot-at-sight orders, supersonic fighters at Dabolim, etc. Reality was quite different, quite the opposite in fact. The thousands of Portuguese troops in all of Goa, Damao & Diu numbered to less than 3000, there were no curfews, no shoot-at-sight orders, no supersonic fighters ever visited Goa (at least as far as I know). There was law and order not by force, but out of sheer habit and a strong moral conscience, which was probably the result of 450 years of Portuguese inculturation. Post invasion, there were curfews, people were indeed shot at by the Indian soldiery who shouted orders in Hindi (few Goans understood Hindi at the time). Bells tolled all over Goa over the death of a young boy who was shot dead at point-blank range, in broad day-light (according to Leo Lawrence). Time magazine has a contemporary article on pre and post invasion. Dabolim was, of course, pot-holed with bomb craters, and despite these craters (which were quietly patched up in the fading light of the evening, according to Mario Cabral e Sa), the last TAIP flight took off overladen with the last of the families of the Portuguese in the dead of night. The Indian airforce, according to Bharat-Rakshak, was scrambled to give chase, but the TAIP flight flew low to avoid radar detection, and Bharat Rakhak records that the plane could not be located by the Indian airforce. My personal experience was that I went to kindergarten right up to 14th December, the day when the school-bus didn't turn up. My mum and I went to the school (at Miramar, where cuurently a Lodge is located) by cab, and were told "eles todos voltaram a Europa" - they've all gone back to Europe). That afternoon saw scores of trucks laden with luggage and personal belongings of the portuguese soldiers and their families going down from Altinho in Pangim (there was a large barracks complete with a swimming pool, next to the Bishop's residence, and is now occupied by the Indian military), and by evening no taxis was to be found as they were commandeered by the Portuguese soldiers (in lieu of communications facilities, I understand, from an article by Gen. Carlos Azaredo). My Dad and I had to go the Hospital Escolar (as the old GMC hospital at Campal used to known by) by horse-carriage to visit my aunt who had delivered a baby girl on the 12th Dec. On the 18th Dec, the first thing I knew was strange-looking planes (looked like Sea Vixens) flying overhead (they were on their way to bomb Bambolim, a purely extravagant exercise from my point of view). All the neighbours came to our place to discuss what was happening. At around 4:00 pm in the afternoon, the archbishop went down the road from Altinho in miltary uniform (if I remember correctly), in a jeep, and saluted Dad as they drove past. Soon after, there was a thunderous noise, and my Dad remarked "Lá vai a ponte de Banastarim" - there goes the Banastarim bridge. Thereafter we all went to the Coelho's house opposite ours, and every-one started praying the rosary. We were there until maybe 7:30pm. It was darkness everywhere, and as far as I can recollect, it was the first time Panjim was in total darkness. The next day saw disorder at Palácio Idalcão, where Dad and I saw someone (probably Prabhakar Sinari) was ordering the burning of the furniture, pictures and documents, right in front of the statue of Abbe Faria. We quickly came back home, and noticed planes circling overhead. Now I know that the planes were cicrling Mormugão, where Gen Vassalo e Silva and his last troops were being rounded up. Interestingly, an article on Navhind Times of 20th October last, says "And when Goa was liberated from the Portuguese rule by the Indian Army on December 19, 1961, the number of Goan families who migrated to Portugal was so large that it almost gained proportion of an exodus." Now why would they, the Goans, do that? You decide. Gabriel. == From: Roland Francis To: "'Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!'" Sent: Tuesday, 23 October 2012 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa What can I say JC. I was quite out of the loop when it happened, a middle school kid really. On the one hand I was in Bombay and heard people like the polished Triloki Nath Kaul (the Kashmiri Pundit guy in the You Tube snippet) then foreign secretary and other British-educated suave and post-independence polished Indian generation (they no longer exist, the current crop mumbles in English) making a case for Goa's liberation. On the other hand there was this fascist European dictator who badly needed an image makeover communicating to G
Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa (Bernado Colaco)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRWTzp3RlJk Indian cabinet ministers sure spoke different English then!
[Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa (Roland Francis)
I hope your readers will be able to read of the reaction to the Indian Invasion of Goa by the East African Goans, in my sequel: "More Matata-Love After the Mau Mau" (Matata Books) which I am hoping will be launched in Toronto in November, 2012. Cheers, Braz Menezes //www.matatabooks.com > From: goanet-requ...@lists.goanet.org > Subject: Goanet Digest, Vol 7, Issue 894 > To: goanet@lists.goanet.org > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 21:23:13 -0700 > > Send Goanet mailing list submissions to > goanet@lists.goanet.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > goanet-requ...@lists.goanet.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > goanet-ow...@lists.goanet.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Goanet digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > >1. (no subject) (john nazar) >2. VascoWatch is now online > (Frederick FN Noronha * ? * ??? ???) >3. Re: Why India Invaded Goa (Venantius J Pinto) >4. Re: Why India Invaded Goa (Roland Francis) >5. Goa news for October 23, 2012 (Goanet News Service) >6. Fwd: David Bailey's India: the long click goodbye (Gabe Menezes) >7. A VINGAN?A DOS C?SARES (sallesfons...@sapo.pt) >8. ALEXYZ Daily Cartoon (22Oct12) (alexyzha...@yahoo.com) >9. Industrial Policy Revamp - A Press Note for Kind Favour of > Publication (floriano) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:19:40 +0100 (BST) > From: john nazar > To: "goanet@lists.goanet.org" > Subject: [Goanet] (no subject) > Message-ID: > <1350926380.66036.yahoomail...@web171201.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > the best way and the most reliable for a traveller like > you is to come to Tivim or Margao or Vasco and take > the Konkan Express and mention the names of the politicians > past and present. You will reach your destination without any > problems. Where is Paris? hahahaha > > > -- > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 00:26:32 +0530 > From: Frederick FN Noronha * ? * ??? ??? > > To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" > > Subject: [Goanet] VascoWatch is now online > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > http://www.vascowatchonline.com/ > -- > FN +91-832-2409490 or +91-9822122436 f...@goa-india.org > http://scr.bi/Goa1556Books | http://pinterest.com/fngoa/goa-1556-books/ > http://bit.ly/GoaRecordings | http://pinterest.com/fngoa/books-on-goa/ > > > -- > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:42:19 -0400 > From: Venantius J Pinto > To: goanet@lists.goanet.org > Subject: Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Well articulated jc. > ++ > In asking that one question about where Kaul in going wrong (the video in > place and time), one would presume RF that you know something that is > common to BC, JC/jc and GF, and their position (ad hoc, as opposed to a > priori) on Goa's Conquest aka Liberation. > > But mine is a rhetorical concern. > ++ > > I have seen faces, and more faces in many places in my 50 + years. This > Kaul guy comes across as one smarmy sad-assed yaksha (but a most unnatural > spirit). Pity I was not interviewing him. Might have left him with a new > one. His metaphors, were so screwed up. Seems like it didn't take much turn > in a similie, or a synecdoche in his mind. Feeling threatened at 450 > million. Not bad at all. > > I do not hate India, but feel happy to say the above since today CC took my > papers to be filed for US citizenship. She remains Desi, I go Videshi. > > Pad poddoun hya soglya bamtyancher. This is not about abusing those who > have stood with me, but celebrating myself and not denying my earned merits > anymore. But its a more complex analysis and not what appears in these few > lines. > > The following is a re-posting (from Wed, 15 Dec 2010 21:49:38 -0500): > My mother always said Mui zaun sakor khavunk zai. (One must become an ant to > eat sugar.) Ever since I was a child America has always fascinated me. 'A > beacon of possibilities,' as the sailors would say while sharing gifts. But > today, it is time to fess up, to dispel dis
[Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
Pray tell us where kaul is not going wrong. BC Perhaps BC, JC and GF among others could tell us where Kaul is going wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRWTzp3RlJk Roland. Toronto.
Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
Roland Francis wrote: What can I say JC. I was quite out of the loop when it happened, a middle school kid really. Hope you understand. MOGAL ROLAND, I do not understand. My point was NOT related to you (and me) being school kids at the time. My point was that: The question you asked has been asked and answered (nearly) a zillion times right here on GOANET, way after you (and I) were school kids. A "search" would have helped. jc
Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
Well articulated jc. ++ In asking that one question about where Kaul in going wrong (the video in place and time), one would presume RF that you know something that is common to BC, JC/jc and GF, and their position (ad hoc, as opposed to a priori) on Goa's Conquest aka Liberation. But mine is a rhetorical concern. ++ I have seen faces, and more faces in many places in my 50 + years. This Kaul guy comes across as one smarmy sad-assed yaksha (but a most unnatural spirit). Pity I was not interviewing him. Might have left him with a new one. His metaphors, were so screwed up. Seems like it didn't take much turn in a similie, or a synecdoche in his mind. Feeling threatened at 450 million. Not bad at all. I do not hate India, but feel happy to say the above since today CC took my papers to be filed for US citizenship. She remains Desi, I go Videshi. Pad poddoun hya soglya bamtyancher. This is not about abusing those who have stood with me, but celebrating myself and not denying my earned merits anymore. But its a more complex analysis and not what appears in these few lines. The following is a re-posting (from Wed, 15 Dec 2010 21:49:38 -0500): My mother always said Mui zaun sakor khavunk zai. (One must become an ant to eat sugar.) Ever since I was a child America has always fascinated me. 'A beacon of possibilities,' as the sailors would say while sharing gifts. But today, it is time to fess up, to dispel distractions and accept the side that has nourished me for almost half my life. While still a Goan at heart, should I decide to exchange my Indian passport for that of the country in which I]ve spent the past several decades? A quick run-through of the steps that brought me here: http://venantiusjpinto.blogspot.com/2010/12/blog-post.html Such is our lives and times, and insistent clamors of the mind. Tat tvam asi. venantius j pinto From: "J. Colaco < jc>" > To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" > > Subject: Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa > > On 22 October 2012 00:01, Roland Francis asked: > > Perhaps BC, JC and GF among others could tell us where Kaul is going wrong. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRWTzp3RlJk > > COMMENT: > > This question has been answered a 'zillion' times on GN. Did not > realise that it had to be re-answered every time a new Rip VW or > Johnny CL (woke up or arrived and ) asked the question. > > Perhaps, RF will give us his opinion on what he thought of the video and > why. > > BTW: As far as I am concerned, Goans who have time to waste will waste > time on 'water under the bridge'; esp that which has gone by many many > years ago - never to return. > > But then, RF might disagree. > > So be it. > > jc >
Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
What can I say JC. I was quite out of the loop when it happened, a middle school kid really. On the one hand I was in Bombay and heard people like the polished Triloki Nath Kaul (the Kashmiri Pundit guy in the You Tube snippet) then foreign secretary and other British-educated suave and post-independence polished Indian generation (they no longer exist, the current crop mumbles in English) making a case for Goa's liberation. On the other hand there was this fascist European dictator who badly needed an image makeover communicating to Goans in India, mostly Bombay, through a propaganda weekly, glossy but so full of Goebbels-like repetitions that no one (except yours truly) read every line, page to page. The real facts got lost in mere form and in the din and cacophony of the time. The real facts and substance of the matter were well and truly drowned and hence my bewilderment. Hope you understand. Roland. Toronto. -Original Message- From: goanet-boun...@lists.goanet.org [mailto:goanet-boun...@lists.goanet.org] On Behalf Of J. Colaco < jc> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 9:25 AM To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! Subject: Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa On 22 October 2012 00:01, Roland Francis asked: Perhaps BC, JC and GF among others could tell us where Kaul is going wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRWTzp3RlJk COMMENT: This question has been answered a 'zillion' times on GN. Did not realise that it had to be re-answered every time a new Rip VW or Johnny CL (woke up or arrived and ) asked the question. Perhaps, RF will give us his opinion on what he thought of the video and why. BTW: As far as I am concerned, Goans who have time to waste will waste time on 'water under the bridge'; esp that which has gone by many many years ago - never to return. But then, RF might disagree. So be it. jc
Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
Roland, The very logical and articulate defence of India`s action in taking over and pushing out the Portuguese administration fom Goa by the gent Mr. Kaul has been presented by you. We have also to remind ourselves that thousands of goans with over four hundred years of portuguese paternal treatment were fully convinced that they were full Portuguese citizens in an overseas province with representation by their own kith and kin ata parliament in Lisbon as opposed to the folk in India who under British colonial rule were subservient subjects of the Crown were forced to defer to the Brit admin. in India and London prior to independence in 1947, were ignored.. So loyal were many goans in Goa to their portuguese identity that they emigrated in droves to Mocambique ,Angola, and the mainland of Portugal after the Indian take-over..where India in a direct rule from Delhi rushed to bring in Indians from other states to their new Union Territory to suppress any vestiages of loyalty to Portugal by the goans. One also has to admit that prominent goans who had moved away from Goa to India during British rule for purposes of education, jobs and general advancement now felt fully Indian in ethos and loyalty and advocated the eviction of the Portuguese.. including Mr. Soares who edited the"Goan Tribune" in Bombay, Cardinal Valerian Gracias who was considered not only as a prince of the catholic church in India but a focus of general opinion of goans dispersed in India, My only regret is that the establishment of a mini-nation of Goa , not unlike Monaco or Leichstenstein, completely seperate from the hordes of the Indian Union was never realised. - Original Message - From: "Roland Francis" To: "'Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!'" Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 12:01 AM Subject: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa Perhaps BC, JC and GF among others could tell us where Kaul is going wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRWTzp3RlJk Roland. Toronto.
Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
On 22 October 2012 00:01, Roland Francis asked: Perhaps BC, JC and GF among others could tell us where Kaul is going wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRWTzp3RlJk COMMENT: This question has been answered a 'zillion' times on GN. Did not realise that it had to be re-answered every time a new Rip VW or Johnny CL (woke up or arrived and ) asked the question. Perhaps, RF will give us his opinion on what he thought of the video and why. BTW: As far as I am concerned, Goans who have time to waste will waste time on 'water under the bridge'; esp that which has gone by many many years ago - never to return. But then, RF might disagree. So be it. jc
Re: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
Kaul said Portugal was not willing to negotiate (for 14 odd years) so India invaded (or is it liberated) Goa. On the other hand, Pakistan has been willing to negotiate for six decades, but POK still remains on 'Indian territory' (as Kaul said of Goa). BP From: Roland Francis To: "'Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!'" Sent: Monday, 22 October 2012 9:31 AM Subject: [Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa Perhaps BC, JC and GF among others could tell us where Kaul is going wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRWTzp3RlJk Roland. Toronto.
[Goanet] Why India Invaded Goa
Perhaps BC, JC and GF among others could tell us where Kaul is going wrong. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRWTzp3RlJk Roland. Toronto.
