Re: [Goanet] Archbishop Censures Clinton Stop at Catholic University
I am surprised at the angry reaction from Derrik Da Costa. I had sent an article where some Bishops have criticised permission granted to an election meeting by a Roman Catholic institute, on the grounds that she did not conform to Catholic values. I asked what exactly are these Catholic values. My exact words are: "I wonder in what way do the Catholic institutes in Goa conform to the above. And what exactly are these Catholic values?" Derrik writes: "As for what we Catholics stand for is what is in the Bible and nobody including yourself has a right to criticize those teachings. In future it would be appropriate to pull the beam out of your eye before to try to pick the speck out off your neighbors' eye." He does not say what exactly are the Catholic values - he merely says that one has to read the Bible to know it. Now, I really do not wish to read the Bible, and hence I was seeking the information. Of course, if it is position of the Catholics that they will not narrate them in brief, but I will HAVE to read the Bible to find out, then I guess I will have to live in a state of ignorance. I cannot criticise what I obviously do not know. So, why is Derrik angry with me? Derrik also says: "However despite all this I have noticed that in all parts of India our CATHOLIC institutions are sought after for education." Some six months ago, at the time of admission to the various colleges in Mumbai, one of the newspapers gave what were the cut-off marks for the top six colleges. I noted that out of these six, only one is a Christian institute, while the the other five were being run by the Hindus. And the Christian institute was third or fourth in the ranking. So, would I not be right in concluding that, at least in Mumbai, the Hindu institutions are more sought after. The publication did not give a break up of those seeking admission by their religious identity, and so I will not abe able to say if the Christians are as keen to get into these Hindu institutions as the Hindus are. Coming to Goa, I think there are no Christian colleges in Panaji, Vasco or Ponda - but they do have Hindu institutes. So, how does Derrik come to the conclusion above? Would be interested to hear from Derrik on this net. Sachin Phadte _ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186
Re: [Goanet] Archbishop Censures Clinton Stop at Catholic University
While I found the response from Derrik Da Costa to be angry, I am puzzled with the response from Frederick Noronha. To repeat, my query was: ""I wonder in what way do the Catholic institutes in Goa conform to the above. And what exactly are these Catholic values?" While Derrik says that I will have to read the Bible to know what the values are, Fred refers me to a URL. I guess I will have to find out for myself. The puzzling part is not the URL information by Fred. He goes on to an explanation about minority insitutes, and makes reference to what he calls saffron ideology, and to Dr Virgincar and Rajan Parrikar. I made no mention of this at all. My query was purely on Catholic values. However, having introduced the subject on this list, I would like to make some comments. He says that if monrities do have have the right to set up and administer their own institutions, it would be a tyranny of the majority that ruled. Now, to the best of my knowledge, the USA, Japan, Australia, etc., do not provide such rights to the Hindus, for example. Does this not mean a tyranny of the majority, as per the definition of Fred? If there are anyone on this list who are from countries where this 'tyranny' exists, they may wish to comment. Of course, I would also like Fred to comment. I am not an expert on the Indian Constitution, but I thought the objective of allowing the right to the minorities to set up and administer their own institutions is with an objective to preserve their own culture, and to impart the culture to the members of the minorities. I would have thought for this objective to be fulfilled properly, these institutes should have a majority of the students from the minorities. I do not know if this indeed exists. At least in Mumbai, the Christian insitutes have only a small number of students from amongst the Christians. So, can Fred tell us all how the objective is fulfilled properly? And if the Christians need institutes to receive the culture, should it not be obligatory on their part that they seek admission only in Christian insitutes? Another query for Fred. Do the Christian institutes take all the Christians who have applied, provided they meet the minimum criteria? Or do these Christians have to compete on merit with the non-Christians? In Mumbai, there are non-Hindus in the Hindu colleges. In these colleges even moral education is not imparted. So how do the Christians get to know their Christian values? Fred writes: "I do not think the "Catholic values" approach should be reason to seek to put anyone on the back foot." I do not see how my query is an attempt to put anyone on the back foot. Sachin Phadte _ Post ads for free - to sell, rent or even buy.www.yello.in http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=186
Re: [Goanet] Archbishop Censures Clinton Stop at Catholic University
Derrick Da Costa wrote to Sachin Phadte: ' because Senator Hillary Clinton is a senator it does not mean that we accept her with open arms when she accepts murder as a policy. We do not believe in murder of innocents. Do you believe in the murder of innocents? As for what we Catholics stand for is what is in the Bible and nobody including yourself has a right to criticize those teachings.' jc's comment: The above post (perhaps erroneously) gives me the impression that Catholics are "fundamentalist" Christians. IF Derrick had stated that Catholics aspire to live by the teachings of Christ, I'd agreeBUT the Bible (including ALL of the Old Testament)? As a tiny example, isn't Pork forbidden in the Old Testament? It would be interesting to expand more on the "murder" policy a bit more. I assume from the da Costa post that Catholics really oppose the Death Penalty, the burning at the Inquisition stake and civilian deaths from the bombs of war. Perhaps, Derrick will direct us to a post / speech / sermao where the Archbishop or Derrick has written or spoken out against the Innocent deaths resulting from those causes. jc
Re: [Goanet] Archbishop Censures Clinton Stop at Catholic University
Hi Sachin, If I understood the drift of your question right, the "Catholic values" are those which the religion sees as a priority. But I guess the term would be differently interpreted by different institutions and even by different Catholics. Google and see: http://www.google.com/search?q=Catholic+values&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=FlockInc.:en-US:official&client=firefox On the one hand, Sec 29 of the Indian Constitution offers minorities the right to set up and administer their own institutions (this is understandable, otherwise it would just be the tyranny of the majority that ruled). "Minorities" here, contrary to what the saffron ideology projects it, could be either religious or linguistic minorities. For instance, I know of Saraswat Konkani-speakers along the Canara coast who have argued in favour of minority rights for their institutions, and sought to buttress their argument by consolidating their linguistic identity through global Konkani conferences, etc. See this: Minority Rights in India: Christian Experiences and Apprehensions Tuesday 24 April 2007, by Emanual Nahar http://www.mainstreamweekly.net/article98.html On the other hand, Crhstian-run institutions (there are quite many in India, far out of proportion to the size of the community) also are funded by monies from a secular state, and need to admit others into without discrimination. So, there is a need for them not to enforce their religious beliefs on those who may not subscribe to them. Since the time I was in school (1960s), these institutions had a system where Catholics went for religion class or Mass, and those from other religions went in for Moral Science or were given free time. Nowadays, one can see a greater degree of tolerance, where some Catholic-run institutions also mark or observe a few religious and cultural festivals from traditions other than their own. Dr Virgincar and Rajan Parrikar have studied in institutions like Loyola's and Don Bosco's. I do not think the "Catholic values" approach should be reason to seek to put anyone on the back foot. It seems to be working well. FN On 14/02/2008, Sachin Phadte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I am sending this article on this list because I was intrigued > by the following comment: "Catholic institutions are obliged > to teach and promote Catholic values in all instances. This > is especially important when people look to our Catholic > universities and colleges to provide leadership and clarity > to the often complicated and conflicting political discourse." > > I wonder in what way do the Catholic institutes in Goa > conform to the above. And what exactly are these Catholic values? -- Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org Ph +91-832-2409490 The Goa books blog: http://goabooks.wordpress.com Goa1556 (alt.publishing.goa): http://goa1556.goa-india.org
Re: [Goanet] Archbishop Censures Clinton Stop at Catholic University
Dear Mr. Sachin Phadte, In reply to your questions as to what Catholic values are you would need to read and understand the Bible. However despite all this I have noticed that in all parts of India our CATHOLIC institutions are sought after for education. Be it Schools or Colleges, these institutions are sought after by Catholics as well as non Catholics so I am sure they are doing something right that other non Catholic institutions aren't doing. Also because Senator Hillary Clinton is a senator it does not mean that we accept her with open arms when she accepts murder as a policy. We do not believe in murder of innocents. Do you believe in the murder of innocents? As for what we Catholics stand for is what is in the Bible and nobody including yourself has a right to criticize those teachings. In future it would be appropriate to pull the beam out of your eye before to try to pick the speck out off your neighbors' eye. Regards, Derrick Da Costa
