Re: [Goanet] Goan friend earn A-levels
My dear Friends, As far as the earliest allusion to the word 'Ghanti' in literature I have found, has neither pejorative nor vituperative connotation, just the ethnic one. For example, Luís de Camões in "Os Lúsiadas", refers to them in canto Vll, verso 22: "Da terra os naturais lhe chamam Gate" with the editor, Reis Brazil's footnote explaining: Gate - Monte da cordilheira dos Gates Zo, what are we quarrelling about being refered to as "Ghanti"? Alfred de Tavares > Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:49:22 +0530> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL > PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: > Re: [Goanet] Goan friend earn A-levels> > There was no question of denouncing > my Portuguese nationality, because I never had one. Besides, my father was in > the Indian Army and was with Operation Vijay for the liberation of Goa.> > > How can you call Goans born and brought up during the Portguese rule in Goa > Portuguese. Were Indians called in India during the British Raj, Britishers.> > > Goans normally referred to the Mahrashtrians as Ghantis, the other side of > the Ghats, not to all Indians.> > Ana Maria de Souza-Goswami> > > - > Original Message - > From: Goencho Nadd > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL > PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, August > 19, 2008 3:14 PM> Subject: Goan friend earn A-levels> > > Ana Maria de > Souza-Goswami writes “It is not difficult for me to get a Portuguese passport > because I was born in Goa during the Portuguese regime, so were my parents > and grandparents. I thoroughly object you using the word 'ghantis' to us > Indians.” > > > > If you claim to be born in Goa during the Portuguese regime > of Potuguese parents, then you were born a Portuguese national. Obviously you > have denounced this nationality on attaining adulthood and taken up Indian > citizenship. Since you were growing up in North India during the sixties you > were bred and brought up as an Indian. And during this process, surely you > were referred to as “Paca pao”. That explains the ire. Because “Paca Pão” was > to referred to people with Goan surnames and brought up in cultures that of > ‘Dhobi Talao’, and other places in India with similar culture. That’s the > exact delusion people in India and Bollywood have of Goa. > > > > Secondly, > you expose your ignorance to the word “Ghanti”. Which in Portuguese means > “Alem Ghates”. You are people from beyond the Ghats and I don’t see why > Indians from beyond the Ghats cannot be called Ghantis!> _ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline
Re: [Goanet] Goan friend earn A-levels
--- On Tue, 19/8/08, CORNEL DACOSTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: CORNEL DACOSTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Those Goans who are now students in the UK are > classified ethnically as Indians and definitely not > Portuguese as you seem to prefer. If you knew better, > you would know that the Indians do excellently > educationally in the UK and are only narrowly beaten > by the ethnic Chinese but whose numbers are small. Hmmm.. ethnicity. A confusing word indeed. I don't know about you Cornel, but when I was in the UK, I was a "Paki", and when I came over to Auusie, I was a "Sri Lankan" - at least that's what people ignorant of my origins assumed me to be. Would a Tibetan be an ethnic Chinese? Would a Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan/ Malaysian Tamil/Hindoestanen (Suriname Indian) / Fijian Indian / etc be considered an ethnic Indian? I ask because I am ignorant and confused. Cheers, Gabriel. Win a MacBook Air or iPod touch with Yahoo!7. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset
Re: [Goanet] Goan friend earn A-levels
Cornel, What you have said is right, that India is the economic giant. That is why the manufacturing companies of the world are pouring into India with Globalisation knowing that the consumer potential of India cannot be ignored. I have always given this example: US total population : 250 million Take out just one quater out as poor which leaves 182.5 million Take out half of this figure as rich to very rich. That leaves 91.25 million middle class population. ( say 100 million who can afford passable luxuries like cars and things. Take India's one billion population. Write off half as poor to abject poor. That is 500 million of potential blue collar work-force which is double the entire population of the US. Take out half of the remaining 500 million as blue/white collar population which keeps 250 million of very rich - rich and well to do. Now take out just 50 million out of 250 million as very rich to rich leaving behind a mind bogling 200 million of well to do. This is almost the entire population of the US who can afford luxuries in life and therefore the front line consumers of imported products. And, more millions are joining in to swell up this figure, every year. This is what I have been trying to tell Bernado & Company. If India can control the levels of corruption which it will be forced to do, with the way ordinary people get enlightened now a days, there will be no other country in the world to hold India's hands, including China' It is just that petty minds get bogged down with petty things. b/rgds floriano goasuraj - Original Message - From: "CORNEL DACOSTA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goan friend earn A-levels Hi Bernado A response to my post may not "merit a scribble" according to you. Further, you then request a definition of Indian ethnicity. However, I took you on re your contention that there was a connection between Goan Portuguese passport holders and a-level results. I prefer to stay with this contention of yours that you make but seem unable to defend. As to the concept of ethnicity, definitions are widely available in texts and the internet and I may spell this out to you when I have more time. At its simplest, you and I are ethnic Indians. I recognise this but you seem to have a slavish attachment to things Portuguese and despise your own inheritance and heritage that is historically Indian, notwithstanding the 450 year Portuguese interlude in Goa. Those Goans who are now students in the UK are classified ethnically as Indians and definitely not Portuguese as you seem to prefer. If you knew better, you would know that the Indians do excellently educationally in the UK and are only narrowly beaten by the ethnic Chinese but whose numbers are small. In contrast, the research on the Portuguese in the UK (as workers) indicate that they have the lowest education levels of all ethnic minority workers in the UK. Thus, can you not see that many a sensible Goan who lands in Portugal craves to enter the UK for better educational and employment opportunities that are not as extensively available in Portugal? I suggest that their Portugese attachmnet is zilch in most cases but this is rather unlike your attachmnet to former Portuguese colonial rule in Goa as though there was something glorious then, rather than brutal Portuguese dictatorship in our own life times. Believe you me, Bernardo, I personally experienced some of that brutality and had previously written about it on Goanet. Interestingly, we know that when some Goans went to Toronto, Canada, the children informed the teachers that they were not Indians but Portuguese. This embarrased their teachers no end but this scenario changed once the Goans there discovered that they were predominantly middle class but by saying they were Portuguese, they were effectively aligning themselves with the working class lowly educated and poor Portuguese in Toronto. If you knew facts such as the above and that India is a potential economic giant compared to Portugal, you might perhaps revise some of your thinking about that despicable word you use--"ghantis" for my fellow Indian brothers and sisters. By all means, do criticise Indian administration, bureaucracy and corruption in Goa but please stop fooling yourself that you are not ethnically Indian in Macau and that you will take your Indian ethnicity with you if you are forced out of Macau as a foreigner and then transport yourself to Portugal. Regards Cornel
Re: [Goanet] Goan friend earn A-levels
Hey people, Its seems that there are a few technicalities involving terms. To my understanding whether one likes it or not, Goans pre-1961 were Portuguese citizens -- as part of Estado da India. Unless there are shades in the concept of Portuguese citizenship that I do not understand. I also read someplace an interesting analogy that while Indians had their Penal code courtesy of the British, the Portuguese granted citizenship to Goans (whatever its burden). I found that an interesting reference in that the British did not choose to grant citizenship status, even to those who were with them as part of their colonial designs. But in any situation, different people see issues and ideas in terms of their circumstance. Which reminds me that the Jallianwala Bag (Baug) papers have not yet been released. I often asked my friends in Mumbai why they called us Goans paowalla, or paowalle. All I got was giggles, and the occasional, Nahin tar kai? (otherwise what else )what then)? But these were my dear Maharashtrians who in their own proud way had their own unique relationships with Goans. A part of existing in the modern is to slowly drop the name calling, but its also not necessary to be too righteous about it. One has to face the pain, slowly but surely. And incidentally, who speaks on behalf of those domestics, who not only worked their backs off but as I heard and am aware, lay on their backs to satiate their employers. Or those who just disappeared somewhere up North. This happens in situations of power (in its myriad ways, including the brute as in physical, and also the brute as in charm) and financial duress. Indians have always been fascinated (for better or worse) by Goans of all religious and other ideological persuasions. A lot was learned from Goans by non-Goans, and it still happens. Now it is about making what constitutes a Goan life -- within an Indians framework. I do not care what anyone thinks but one usually assimilates into modernity -- by attempting to negate its brutality -- by softening ones ones own sharp edges. To do this one partakes or attempts to impose ones will on those who have assimilated for better or for worse. Tomorrow we may do the same to others in turn. I have heard people say that would feel comfortable to raise their daughters (precocious) in Goa, and and if not that then certainly on holidays. The environmental constructs that Goa provides is certainly worth it for the non-Goan. Venantius
Re: [Goanet] Goan friend earn A-levels
There was no question of denouncing my Portuguese nationality, because I never had one. Besides, my father was in the Indian Army and was with Operation Vijay for the liberation of Goa. How can you call Goans born and brought up during the Portguese rule in Goa Portuguese. Were Indians called in India during the British Raj, Britishers. Goans normally referred to the Mahrashtrians as Ghantis, the other side of the Ghats, not to all Indians. Ana Maria de Souza-Goswami - Original Message - From: Goencho Nadd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 3:14 PM Subject: Goan friend earn A-levels Ana Maria de Souza-Goswami writes “It is not difficult for me to get a Portuguese passport because I was born in Goa during the Portuguese regime, so were my parents and grandparents. I thoroughly object you using the word 'ghantis' to us Indians.” If you claim to be born in Goa during the Portuguese regime of Potuguese parents, then you were born a Portuguese national. Obviously you have denounced this nationality on attaining adulthood and taken up Indian citizenship. Since you were growing up in North India during the sixties you were bred and brought up as an Indian. And during this process, surely you were referred to as “Paca pao”. That explains the ire. Because “Paca Pão” was to referred to people with Goan surnames and brought up in cultures that of ‘Dhobi Talao’, and other places in India with similar culture. That’s the exact delusion people in India and Bollywood have of Goa. Secondly, you expose your ignorance to the word “Ghanti”. Which in Portuguese means “Alem Ghates”. You are people from beyond the Ghats and I don’t see why Indians from beyond the Ghats cannot be called Ghantis! No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1619 - Release Date: 8/18/2008 5:39 PM
Re: [Goanet] Goan friend earn A-levels
Hi Bernado A response to my post may not "merit a scribble" according to you. Further, you then request a definition of Indian ethnicity. However, I took you on re your contention that there was a connection between Goan Portuguese passport holders and a-level results. I prefer to stay with this contention of yours that you make but seem unable to defend. As to the concept of ethnicity, definitions are widely available in texts and the internet and I may spell this out to you when I have more time. At its simplest, you and I are ethnic Indians. I recognise this but you seem to have a slavish attachment to things Portuguese and despise your own inheritance and heritage that is historically Indian, notwithstanding the 450 year Portuguese interlude in Goa. Those Goans who are now students in the UK are classified ethnically as Indians and definitely not Portuguese as you seem to prefer. If you knew better, you would know that the Indians do excellently educationally in the UK and are only narrowly beaten by the ethnic Chinese but whose numbers are small. In contrast, the research on the Portuguese in the UK (as workers) indicate that they have the lowest education levels of all ethnic minority workers in the UK. Thus, can you not see that many a sensible Goan who lands in Portugal craves to enter the UK for better educational and employment opportunities that are not as extensively available in Portugal? I suggest that their Portugese attachmnet is zilch in most cases but this is rather unlike your attachmnet to former Portuguese colonial rule in Goa as though there was something glorious then, rather than brutal Portuguese dictatorship in our own life times. Believe you me, Bernardo, I personally experienced some of that brutality and had previously written about it on Goanet. Interestingly, we know that when some Goans went to Toronto, Canada, the children informed the teachers that they were not Indians but Portuguese. This embarrased their teachers no end but this scenario changed once the Goans there discovered that they were predominantly middle class but by saying they were Portuguese, they were effectively aligning themselves with the working class lowly educated and poor Portuguese in Toronto. If you knew facts such as the above and that India is a potential economic giant compared to Portugal, you might perhaps revise some of your thinking about that despicable word you use--"ghantis" for my fellow Indian brothers and sisters. By all means, do criticise Indian administration, bureaucracy and corruption in Goa but please stop fooling yourself that you are not ethnically Indian in Macau and that you will take your Indian ethnicity with you if you are forced out of Macau as a foreigner and then transport yourself to Portugal. Regards Cornel --- Bernado Colaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I believe that your ingenuous remarks hardly merit a > scribble. Till today you have not offered a > definition of indian ethnicity. As for being angry > with the bharats they invaded my country and are on > the verge of destroying it...
Re: [Goanet] Goan friend earn A-levels
Hi Bernardo Your logic is seemingly strange for someone who has claimed to be 'UK returned' in previous posts. Most importantly, you have failed to show any causal connection, as imputed by you, between a Portuguese passport and 'A' level grades in the UK education sector. I now make a few further comments: a) There is no such thing as a "ghanti passport". b) Assuming you actually mean an "Indian passport" but can't get yourself to admit, utter or state this simple fact, those who have entry visas with an Indian passport do not have to wait at Heathrow or at any one of the many airports in the UK to be allowed in. Thousands gain entry every year. Much the same is reciprocated for our Indian (non-Portuguese) brothers and sisters in other countries including Portugal. c) your claim that anyone with a Portuguese passport can enter the UK is a fact because of the privilege of EU membership. However, for someone so pro the Portuguese and anti Indian as you clearly are, has it minimally struck you that those same Goans with Portuguese passports seek work in the UK in the main, do so in a fellow Commonwealth country just like India is? d) I have always been keen for those Goans who want to leave Goa for better pastures, to do so. That, many head straight for the UK appears sensible for them and I applaud their decision based mainly on economic criteria. Here, they will meet a great diversity of people of whom ethnic Indians, are the majority of the ethnic minority in the UK and they are as Indian by ethnic origin, as the Goans holding Portuguese passports as you too are, and irrespective of your Portuguese passport and Macau residence. You are ethnically an Indian and to date you have been unable to challenge this simple factual assertion of mine. So Bernardo, unlike you, I never need to be personal when I send material to Goanet. The facts speak largely for themselves irrespective of any qualification I may or may not have but to which you happen to have alluded! Now that I have expressed myself a little more fully than when I normally reply to you, I hope you and others can judge the relative merits in this little discussion for themselves. Regards as always Cornel DaCosta --- Bernado Colaco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > With a ghanti passport our Goan friends would still > be at Heathrow airport trying to get an entry into > the UK. Therefore with Portuguese citzenship not > only for these Goans (A-levels), but all the strata, > from bramanekas, to mars and chamar to sudrekas has > been a boon. Your claim to be a dotor but it clearly > looks by your writings that you are a fator! > BC >
