Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
On Jan 23, 2014, at 4:43 AM, Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com wrote: Eugene, Within this logic structure do not expect JC to provide proof although valid in terms of the same expected of you: Can JC give proof that Menon had not likely met Nehru before Vijaya got married or was already married Response: Dear Venantius, I am surprised (or should I be) that proof is asked for a 'not likely met' probability, but none is provided (by Eugene) for some of the claims he 'hearsayed'. Now. as it is unlikely that any of us were around at that time, around these folks, let us try this exercise: (We can say that VLP was about 21 years of age at the time of her marriage.) Where was is that Nehru and Menon likely met first? When would that be? How old would VLP have been when she was widowed? What was the tradition (at the time) of remarriage among Kashmiri Pandit widows? What was/is the tradition (at that time / presently) of marriage between Kashmiris and Malayalis? Based on the answers we get from our research, I am sure that 'we' will be able to determine (with a certain level of certainty) as to what was likely or unlikely. best jc
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
Dear FN, I didn't want to get away but stay put where I am. I said in the post that I haven't read the book which, I think, is titled Reminences of the Nehru Age. You got to believe me or not. You perhaps think I made that up? Giving you the name of the journalist, does it matter to you? I said that its a story which I don't know is true or not. I also said it's hinted in the book. I also wish to know if the book has a clue in it. The book was, as usual, available undergone and some had copies of it. I checked Amazaon and its available from there. I read some pages of the book (I don't remember where, so FN please note). The brahmin part was not an impediment but it was just said by Nehru perhaps in his temper. If Eric says Nehru and Menon were lovers, then perhaps Nehru didn't want Menon to go. :-) Internet search reveals, In May 1921 she married Ranjit Sitaram Pandit, a foreign-educated barrister from Kathiawar. At that time she changed her name to Vijaya Lakshmi Pandit. The Pandit's had three daughters, including the novelist Nayantara (Pandit) Sehgal. Her husband died on January 14, 1944. Now I remember the name Ranjit. I knew Vijaya's grandson, Ranjit, in college. He was Nayantara's son who was Ranjit, named perhaps after his grandfather. I read a Nayantara's couple of books, including her popular Rich Like Us, and Mistaken Identity. She became a bitter critic of her cousin Indira after the Emergency. Nayantara was also a journalist. JC says, As far as I know, Vijaylakshmi was already married (early) before Menon was likely to have met (forget known ) Nehru. Can JC give proof that Menon had not likely met Nehru before Vijaya got married or was already married Wiki says, In 1921 she married Ranjit Sitaram Pandit, a successful barrister from Kathiawad and classical scholar who translated Kalhana's epic history Rajatarangini into English from Sanskrit. He was arrested for his support of Indian independence and died in Lucknow prison jail on 14 January 1944. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
CORRECTION: Eugene, Within this logic structure do not expect JC to provide proof although valid in terms of the same expected of you: Can JC give proof that Menon had not likely met Nehru before Vijaya got married or was already married . One can only expect FN to ask others to provide prof as you were asked—except in good grace. No point in taking things personally in these forums unless there is something of value to hold on to. Some things must be taken in good spirit but for some reason we function differently here. Often baffling, but then as learnt to my detriment from my mates at JJ: Bankass yaaar!! Often a simple request saying, IF possible (this is a also a honorable out). None of you are defending any dissertations here. Nor is anyone penning historical treatises. Perhaps a memoir?! None of this is intended as malice, nor mallish. Best all. On 1/23/14, Venantius J Pinto venantius.pi...@gmail.com wrote: Eugene, Within this logic structure do not ask ask FN to ask others to provide prof as you were asked—except in good grace. No point in taking things personally in these forums unless there is something of value to hold on to. Some things must be taken in good spirit but for some reason we function differently here. Often baffling, but then as learnt to my detriment from my mates at JJ: Bankass yaaar!! Often a simple request saying, IF possible (this is a also a honorable out). None of you are defending any dissertations here. Nor is anyone penning historical treatises. Perhaps a memoir?! None of this is intended as malice, nor mallish. Best all. Venantius J Pinto On 1/23/14, Eugene Correia eugene.corr...@gmail.com wrote: Dear FN, I didn't want to get away but stay put where I am. I said in the post that I haven't read the book which, I think, is titled Reminences of the Nehru Age. You got to believe me or not. You perhaps think I made that up? Giving you the name of the journalist, does it matter to you? I said that its a story which I don't know is true or not. I also said it's hinted in the book. I also wish to know if the book has a clue in it. The book was, as usual, available undergone and some had copies of it. I checked Amazaon and its available from there. I read some pages of the book (I don't remember where, so FN please note). The brahmin part was not an impediment but it was just said by Nehru perhaps in his temper. If Eric says Nehru and Menon were lovers, then perhaps Nehru didn't want Menon to go. :-) Internet search reveals, In May 1921 she married Ranjit Sitaram Pandit, a foreign-educated barrister from Kathiawar. At that time she changed her name to Vijaya Lakshmi Pandit. The Pandit's had three daughters, including the novelist Nayantara (Pandit) Sehgal. Her husband died on January 14, 1944. Now I remember the name Ranjit. I knew Vijaya's grandson, Ranjit, in college. He was Nayantara's son who was Ranjit, named perhaps after his grandfather. I read a Nayantara's couple of books, including her popular Rich Like Us, and Mistaken Identity. She became a bitter critic of her cousin Indira after the Emergency. Nayantara was also a journalist. JC says, As far as I know, Vijaylakshmi was already married (early) before Menon was likely to have met (forget known ) Nehru. Can JC give proof that Menon had not likely met Nehru before Vijaya got married or was already married Wiki says, In 1921 she married Ranjit Sitaram Pandit, a successful barrister from Kathiawad and classical scholar who translated Kalhana's epic history Rajatarangini into English from Sanskrit. He was arrested for his support of Indian independence and died in Lucknow prison jail on 14 January 1944. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
Oops.. in the earlier post it should be read in Independent India. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
Eric, I think Nehru didn't want the Padrado to be in effect in Independent Goa. Hence, he plugged for Cardinal Gracias. Even the late Father Conceicao Rodrigues of the Pilar Society waged a battle for having an Indian church as he was nationalist. As usual, Floriano is flogging a dead horse. One knows his pet peece. Special Status then when Goa was just liberated? (Excuse me Floriano) Cardinal Gracias is held in high esteem by Goans I know, and maybe Goans of Floriano's ike may not hold in honour. Blame it on the way the Opinion Poll was agreed to by those involved. If Special Status was part of the compromise then it would have been a different story. Perhaps, we would have Floriano as CM then or now :-) It's not impossible, though. Cardinal Gracias was among many Mumbai Goans for wanted Goa to be liberated. As I pointed out, we have father and son, the Moraeses, on either side of the debate. If Floriano keeps on harping what went wrong in 1961, it won't help Goa Su-Raj. The party has taken a detour and I wish it well. But please look forward and let the past be past. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
Eugene is noted to be playing a 'fekellem rebek' and a 'futlolo couxo' Not that it makes a wee bit of a difference. Cheers floriano goasuraj - Original Message - From: Eugene Correia eugene.corr...@gmail.com To: goa...@goanet.org Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon Eric, I think Nehru didn't want the Padrado to be in effect in Independent Goa. Hence, he plugged for Cardinal Gracias. Even the late Father Conceicao Rodrigues of the Pilar Society waged a battle for having an Indian church as he was nationalist. As usual, Floriano is flogging a dead horse. One knows his pet peece. Special Status then when Goa was just liberated? (Excuse me Floriano) Cardinal Gracias is held in high esteem by Goans I know, and maybe Goans of Floriano's ike may not hold in honour. Blame it on the way the Opinion Poll was agreed to by those involved. If Special Status was part of the compromise then it would have been a different story. Perhaps, we would have Floriano as CM then or now :-) It's not impossible, though. Cardinal Gracias was among many Mumbai Goans for wanted Goa to be liberated. As I pointed out, we have father and son, the Moraeses, on either side of the debate. If Floriano keeps on harping what went wrong in 1961, it won't help Goa Su-Raj. The party has taken a detour and I wish it well. But please look forward and let the past be past. Eugene
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
I believe Nehru and Moraes were not together in college, as Moares studied at Oxford while Nehru at Cambridge, both bitter rivals in academic and sports field. Having read both Moraes' book on Nehru, I don't remember the details. I wish Eric would provide page number at the name of the book, since Moraes wrote Nehru: A Biography, and his second book, Sunlight and Shadow. Moraes did support the army going into Goa, as did Cardinal Gracias. It's alleged that Nehru called up Frank and showed his displeasure with Dom's (Frank's spon) writing in London Times (I think) about India's takeover of Goa. Dom was critical of India. I read the piece but, if I remember correctly, Dom in that piece or later said he will never visit India. Mind you, Dom never came to India for long but decided to settle down in India in his latter years on advice from Stepen Spender, Frank's friend. It was alleged that Menon wanted to marry Vijaylakshmi Pandit, sister of Nehru, but Nehru put his foot down saying he doesn't want his sister to marry a Malaysee brahmin. It this story is true or not but, I think, Nehru's secretary, MO Mathai's book, alleges or gives a clue to this story. This was told to me by a journalist who knew Nehru. I didn't read Mathai's book because it was banned in India. eugene
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
On 22 January 2014 12:54, Eugene Correia eugene.corr...@gmail.com wrote: It was alleged that Menon wanted to marry Vijaylakshmi Pandit, sister of Nehru, but Nehru put his foot down saying he doesn't want his sister to marry a Malaysee brahmin. It this story is true or not but, I think, Nehru's secretary, MO Mathai's book, alleges or gives a clue to this story. This was told to me by a journalist who knew Nehru. I didn't read Mathai's book because it was banned in India. That way, I could get away saying anything was told to me by an unnamed journalist! It would have been more convincing if the page number was quoted. FN -- FN Phone +91-832-2409490 Mobile +91-9822122436
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
What a genuine bonk, the Pandit. Thanks for being kind enough to mention the Card. Gracias. Venantius J Pinto On 1/22/14, Eugene Correia eugene.corr...@gmail.com wrote: I believe Nehru and Moraes were not together in college, as Moares studied at Oxford while Nehru at Cambridge, both bitter rivals in academic and sports field. Having read both Moraes' book on Nehru, I don't remember the details. I wish Eric would provide page number at the name of the book, since Moraes wrote Nehru: A Biography, and his second book, Sunlight and Shadow. Moraes did support the army going into Goa, as did Cardinal Gracias. It's alleged that Nehru called up Frank and showed his displeasure with Dom's (Frank's spon) writing in London Times (I think) about India's takeover of Goa. Dom was critical of India. I read the piece but, if I remember correctly, Dom in that piece or later said he will never visit India. Mind you, Dom never came to India for long but decided to settle down in India in his latter years on advice from Stepen Spender, Frank's friend. It was alleged that Menon wanted to marry Vijaylakshmi Pandit, sister of Nehru, but Nehru put his foot down saying he doesn't want his sister to marry a Malaysee brahmin. It this story is true or not but, I think, Nehru's secretary, MO Mathai's book, alleges or gives a clue to this story. This was told to me by a journalist who knew Nehru. I didn't read Mathai's book because it was banned in India. eugene
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
I believe Nehru and Moraes were not together in college, as Moares studied at Oxford while Nehru at Cambridge, both bitter rivals in academic and sports field. Having read both Moraes' book on Nehru, I don't remember the details. I wish Eric would provide page number at the name of the book, since Moraes wrote Nehru: A Biography, and his second book, Sunlight and Shadow. Moraes did support the army going into Goa, as did Cardinal Gracias. It's alleged that Nehru called up Frank and showed his displeasure with Dom's (Frank's spon) writing in London Times (I think) about India's takeover of Goa. Dom was critical of India. I read the piece but, if I remember correctly, Dom in that piece or later said he will never visit India. Mind you, Dom never came to India for long but decided to settle down in India in his latter years on advice from Stepen Spender, Frank's friend. It was alleged that Menon wanted to marry Vijaylakshmi Pandit, sister of Nehru, but Nehru put his foot down saying he doesn't want his sister to marry a Malaysee brahmin. It this story is true or not but, I think, Nehru's secretary, MO Mathai's book, alleges or gives a clue to this story. This was told to me by a journalist who knew Nehru. I didn't read Mathai's book because it was banned in India. eugene
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
1: Eugene Correia eugene.corr...@gmail.com wrote: It was alleged that Menon wanted to marry Vijaylakshmi Pandit, sister of Nehru, but Nehru put his foot down saying he doesn't want his sister to marry a Malaysee brahmin. 2: Frederick FN Noronha wrote: That way, I could get away saying anything was told to me by an unnamed journalist! It would have been more convincing if the page number was quoted. COMMENT: a: I agree with FN. b: As far as I know, Vijaylakshmi was already married (early) before Menon was likely to have met (forget known ) Nehru. c: IF, the scenario is accurate, Not very sure if the brahmin was the impediment. Know many Kashmiris married to Malyalis? d: we guys do not much about this thing called North South / White Black prejudice in India, do we? ps: After all the drama, in 1967 Menon was denied a Congress ticket in Bombay. He contest as an independent and lost. So much for him jc
Re: [Goanet] Nehru and Menon
Vivian writes: Krishna Menon was indeed the architect of India's take over of Goa, whether Nehru was aware of the plan is debateable. What's debatable about it? Nehru okayed the invasion. He was the boss, but no doubt the pressure came from Menon and others who wanted action. There are different versions. One says that Menon wanted to win the elections in Mumbai. Back to basics, please. Eugene
