Re: [Goanet] Talibanization of Goa
I would like to butt in on this topic even though it is late. And I thank Fredrick Noronha for reviving the same. Having gone through Preetam's post ( I did not go thro it earlier), I say that Preetam is very right. The line Fredrick is taking is a line of maha-pacification, a neutral line, a line where the field is open for complete anarchy. Can governance tolerate a pendulum swing at all times? No sir. Governance must stay solidly planted and must grow roots, not just folliage. Goa has been under the western influence for nigh almost half a millenium, for God's sake. I have grown up in this influence at its tail end. I for one will never wear a 'gaddi', the Indian version of a suit jacket or a kurta pajama. Simply because I have never worn any and I have no tolerance for these, though it is widely accepted. Can anyone force, say a gaddi or a kurta pajama on me? whatever may be the occasion?? Again, No sir. Besides, I associate the gaddi and the kurta pajama absolutely with total corruption or total tolerance towards corruption, right from Nehru's time including Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru himself.. If my children want to wear a gaddi or a kurta pajama, it is their wish. I am out of it. Likewise, salwar khameez as a mandatory dress code for girls in school is not acceptable if the particular school is registered with the main-stream governmental or non governmental organization, unless until there is a definate and unambiguous definition of the dress code. If girls are to wear salwar khameezes today, then the boys will wear what tomorrow? the RSS' Khaki shorts, white shirt and the black Gandhi topi??? If Goa wants to get into the Indian influence and shed its western influence, then, as long as people like me are still alive and very much assertive, let there be a referendum on these sensitive issues. The stance Fredrick is taking is dangerous. It is not different from the ostrich burying its head in the sand when there is a need for it to be alert. Goa Su-Raj Party is in existence in Goa now (for the past 6 years). It will not allow anything of this sort unless the people get a chance to speak about it in very definitive terms. The people of Goa are no 'Cachra' to be just used and discarded. They will make their decision in a most democratic way, but before that, let there be, (must be) long public discussions in every fora, every school every place even temples, churches and mosques etc, on these sensitive issues so that every Goan is sensitized on the merits and demerits of the issues at hand. I think I have made myself clear, as also my party's line of thought in this matter which threatens to set dangerous precedents in Goa. GOANS MUST NOT ALLOW GOVERNMENTS ( WHO GET ELECTED ON THE VOTES OF MIGRANT POPULATION) TO DECIDE FOR GOA. floriano goasuraj [Say NO to Second Term for MLAs] [Say YES to Goa's own Command in GOA] - Original Message - From: "Frederick Noronha" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Talibanisation of Goa. > I've been meaning to comment on this post earlier... though I'm not sure if "Preetam Raikar" is really Preetam Raikar. > We're all missing a key point here: the key problem is compulsion. It becomes intensely problematic when *we* believe that *we* can, and > should, be laying down standards for everyone! > The problem with Konkani/Marathi enforced medium-of-instruction at the primary level (done in the name of 'education in the mother tongue', a questionable argument if you scratch even lightly below the skin) is precisely this: compulsion. > Compulsion likewise causes problems with the Devanagari script in Goa as we have recently seen, or Luizinho Faleiro's policy of not giving > the choice to parents to decide whether their children should be studying English or not as a subject in Std I (giving the Marathi press a chance to whip up hysteria through eight-column banner headlines) and in other cases. > When it comes to uniforms, is it hard to imagine that a section of parents in Goa find the Western garb to be an immodest form of dress for their daughters? If so, is it fair to force it on them? Once we accept this reality, then the only question left to be sorted out is what choices should be given over the uniforms to be worn, who should exercise these choices (parents? students? educational institutions? PTAs?) and how the interests of those (minorities -- but not necessarily in a religious sense) should be taken care of. > While *we* think it is abominable to be forced into a purdah or salwar kameez, why not ask others what they feel about it? Is it any less > abominable to force them to be clad in a Western attire, which for whatever reason they are unwilling to accept? > If you think my logic is flawed, let me know why. FN > [Goanet] Talibanisation of Goa. > Preetam Raikar preetam_raikar1 at yahoo.com > Sun Jun 11 21:54:00 PDT 2006 > Recently, I was astonished to read an artic
Re: [Goanet] Talibanization of Goa
You're talking from your own perspective. There are others, equally Goan, who don't agree with what you say. Maybe this has to do with the history of Portuguese colonialism of Goa, and the fact that it meant very different things for the "Velhas Conquistas" and the "Novas Conquistas". If you wish to take your perspective as the norm, why shout when Manohar Parrikar and that tiny saffron fringe does likewise, and pushes its own standards and preferences down everyone else's throat? Or, for that matter, when the PDF in 1990 virtually banished English from primary schooling using some questionable arguments brought about with dubious intent? On 28/06/06, Floriano Lobo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I would like to butt in on this topic even though it is late. And I thank > Fredrick Noronha for reviving the same. > > Having gone through Preetam's post ( I did not go thro it earlier), I say > that Preetam is very right. > > The line Fredrick is taking is a line of maha-pacification, a neutral line, > a line where the field is open for complete anarchy. Can governance tolerate > a pendulum swing at all times? No sir. Governance must stay solidly planted > and must grow roots, not just folliage. If you don't give in to the legitimate demands of a section, then you will have to give in to a whole lot of illegitimate demands too. If someone wants to wear a salwar khameez to school, what's wrong? Some time back an editor was writing disparagingly about tee-shirt wearing Goans. What's wrong with that? Should we be imposing our standards on others? > Goa has been under the western influence for nigh almost half a millenium, > for God's sake. I have grown up in this influence at its tail end. I for one > will never wear a 'gaddi', the Indian version of a suit jacket or a kurta > pajama. Simply because I have never worn any and I have no tolerance for > these, though it is widely accepted. Can anyone force, say a gaddi or a > kurta pajama on me? whatever may be the occasion?? Again, No sir. 3/4ths of Goa (by landmass) underwent a colonial experience which was much similar to the rest of British India. No wonder every issue in Goa (merger, language, airport, location of the university, MGP-UGP, Konkan Railway route) gets polarised along communal/religious lines. As long as we don't acknowledge differences in perception, we are widening the gap. > Besides, I associate the gaddi and the kurta pajama absolutely with total > corruption or total tolerance towards corruption, right from Nehru's time > including Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru himself.. If my children want to wear a > gaddi or a kurta pajama, it is their wish. I am out of it. You might be getting carried away by your rhetoric, Floriano. Nobody's asking you to wear what they demand; someone is asking for a uniform which is more in keeping with what they perceive as their cultural traditions. > Likewise, salwar khameez as a mandatory dress code for girls in school is > not acceptable if the particular school is registered with the main-stream > governmental or non governmental organization, unless until there is a > definate and unambiguous definition of the dress code. If girls are to wear > salwar khameezes today, then the boys will wear what tomorrow? the RSS' > Khaki shorts, white shirt and the black Gandhi topi??? This argument smacks of an authoritarian bent of mind and also an inability to acknowledge cultural diversity ;-) > If Goa wants to get into the Indian influence and shed its western > influence, then, as long as people like me are still alive and very much > assertive, let there be a referendum on these sensitive issues. What next? A referendum on every issue? Goa doesn't want anything; a section is laying down the rules in the schools it runs. And you don't grant that right to them? Even if it shows gender bias, it is an internal matter for the school to decide on, not something for us to indulge in grandstanding over. > Goa Su-Raj Party is in existence in Goa now (for the past 6 years). It will > not allow anything of this sort unless the people get a chance to speak > about it in very definitive terms. The people of Goa are no 'Cachra' to be > just used and discarded. They will make their decision in a most democratic > way, but before that, let there be, (must be) long public discussions in > every fora, every school every place even temples, churches and mosques etc, > on these sensitive issues so that every Goan is sensitized on the merits and > demerits of the issues at hand. More rhetoric. But you don't seem to be getting down to the issue > GOANS MUST NOT ALLOW GOVERNMENTS ( WHO GET ELECTED ON THE VOTES OF MIGRANT > POPULATION) TO DECIDE FOR GOA. At one stage, what you say against the "votes of migrant population" was used as an argument against women's votes. Then, it was also sought to be used against the uneducated (read: poor). > [Say NO to Second Term for MLAs] You can afford to, your party doesn't have a single
Re: [Goanet] Talibanization of Goa - Uniforms & Migrants - Mario Goveia
MG:>To Florian, >I agree with you that any government action should be subject to scrutiny and protest. FL: Thank you very much. I appreciate. MG:> However, I can't even get a simple answer to my questions as to a) what was the official reason given for the new school policy, assuming one was offered? b) has anyone polled the parents to gage their reaction? and c) what do the girls think? Do you know? Does it matter? FL: I too am in the same boat that you are sailing in, totally ignorant about what is going on. MG:>Re. your striking clarion call to ignore the opinions of migrants, who must have registered as residents of Goa in order to vote, how exactly do you propose to nullify the elected government if you deem their decision to be "against Goa"? FL: Very simple. Vote them out of power and reverse their doings. Example: Throw the 'Tenancy Act' out of the window which has eaten up Goa's indigenous Comunidades, and go one step further and pee on it and the people who brought it in the first place. MG: >I assume you have already determined what is an acceptable decision FOR "Goa" and what is NOT??? I'm afraid to even ask how you made such a determination. Do they conduct statistically valid polling in Goa, which would provide some guidance and validity to a protest? FL: Mario, my dear, I have grown up in GOA. I have seen the Portuguese rule. I have experienced it, bad, not so bad, good et al. And now I am stuck with the chor Indian rule, which is bafling even more in the name of democracy. Stastically polling is rampant in the US where you reside. Not in India, least in Goa. Who cares how/what people think?? as long as they pay their taxes?? And I or my party do not sweat about what is acceptable to others and what is not. We have put down what is acceptable to us. People of Goa, you, have a choice. Either accept it or go to Congress, MGP, UGDP, NCP, Janata Party, CPI(M) plus more. We are least bothered. You think we care if Goa goes down and further down?? I will be the first one to go down firing crackers and celebrating. What! My going down? No, not so much. But GOANS going down, too much. Why? Because they need not go down if they had used their brains and chosen to help themselves rather than help the CHOR Congresswallas et al. BTW Mario, check-out www.goasu-raj.org and download the ROAD MAP FOR GOA. If you do, you will not be saying what you are saying. floriano goasuraj [Say NO to Second Term for MLAs] Say YES to Goa's Own Command in Goa] - Original Message - From: "Mario Goveia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Talibanisation of Goa. (re. uniforms and migrants) > --- Elisabeth Carvalho wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, the demands made are on a women and > > it is not the attire that worries me, it is the > > motive behind it. > > > > Nor it is very different from what the Taliban did > > to their women. Perhaps those decision were > > blatant but this one is more insidious because it > > is opaque. The motive however is not. > > > --- Floriano wrote: > > > GOANS MUST NOT ALLOW GOVERNMENTS (WHO GET ELECTED ON > THE VOTES OF MIGRANT POPULATION) TO DECIDE FOR GOA. > > > Mario asks: > > > First, to Elisabeth, > Could you please let us know how you found out the > motive behind the Goa salwar-khameez policy? I have > been trying to find out what reasons were given by the > Goa school administration in order to do so, but > JoeGoaUK has not come through on my request to > investigate the facts for us. You have now twice > stated conclusively that you know the motive, and I > would really like to know exactly what it is and how > you found out. > > > If this is one of those intuitive conclusions that > every sensitive person ought to automatically know, I > need to factor that into my analysis because I have > zero intuition and am lost without supporting facts. > > > Also, I'm trying real hard to understand this > statement of yours about the salwar-khameez policy, > "Nor it is very different from what the Taliban did to > their women." > > > Maybe, living in the US as I do, I have missed > altogether what is going on in Goa, but are they now > whipping the school girls with canes in public if > their ankles can be seen? Are they beheading them in > the football stadiums if they are seen in public with > males not related to them? BTW, how are the Goan > girls even allowed to go to school, if the Goan school > policies are not "...very different from from what the > Taliban did to their women." > > > Some similarities with Madhya Pradesh maybe. But the > Taliban? Do analogies mean anything any more under > the new paradigm where everything as we know it, is > "provisional"? ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Talibanization of Goa - Kudos to the French (re uniforms)
I would like to bring into this argument, the French perspective on the uniform. As you may know the French banned the hijab in their schools amidst aggressive protests and threats from the Muslim community. Kudos to the French for not backing down. Schools should be a beacon of equality and the Muslim community continues to shackle their women using culture and religion as an excuse. Culture and religion are the untouchables under whose guise the most horrendous acts of inequality and injustice are condoned. This reminds me of a personal story. At the age of 21, when I had cobbled together two pennies of my own, I announced that I was going to tour Germany and England. My mother was besides herself with worry. When she had exhausted all the weapons in her arsenal, she used the last one "well, it's not our culture" she said. As soon as the words left her mouth, she knew she had said the wrong thing. I did go to Germany and England. I shall forever be grateful to my mother for realising that my need to grow as a human being was much larger than her need to protect me. I hope as a nation, we realise the same thing. Elisabeth -- > FN: > This argument smacks of an authoritarian bent > of mind and also an > > inability to acknowledge cultural diversity ;-) > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Talibanization of Goa - A Riposte by Floriano Lobo to FN
FL: Since you have asked the above question, you first tell me if the Congress High Command, the Nagpur High Command of the RSS-BJP, the Baramati High Command of the NCP, the Bangalore High Command of the Janata Party and the Kolkata High Command of the CPI(M), CPI, is representative of the diversity of Goa?. ----- Original Message - From: "Frederick "FN" Noronha" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994!" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 4:51 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Talibanization of Goa > You're talking from your own perspective. There are others, equally > Goan, who don't agree with what you say. Maybe this has to do with the > history of Portuguese colonialism of Goa, and the fact that it meant > very different things for the "Velhas Conquistas" and the "Novas > Conquistas". > > If you wish to take your perspective as the norm, why shout when > Manohar Parrikar and that tiny saffron fringe does likewise, and > pushes its own standards and preferences down everyone else's throat? > Or, for that matter, when the PDF in 1990 virtually banished English > from primary schooling using some questionable arguments brought about > with dubious intent? > > On 28/06/06, Floriano Lobo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I would like to butt in on this topic even though it is late. And I thank > > Fredrick Noronha for reviving the same. > > > > Having gone through Preetam's post ( I did not go thro it earlier), I say > > that Preetam is very right. > > > > The line Fredrick is taking is a line of maha-pacification, a neutral line, > > a line where the field is open for complete anarchy. Can governance tolerate > > a pendulum swing at all times? No sir. Governance must stay solidly planted > > and must grow roots, not just folliage. > > If you don't give in to the legitimate demands of a section, then you > will have to give in to a whole lot of illegitimate demands too. > > If someone wants to wear a salwar khameez to school, what's wrong? > Some time back an editor was writing disparagingly about tee-shirt > wearing Goans. What's wrong with that? Should we be imposing our > standards on others? > > > Goa has been under the western influence for nigh almost half a millenium, > > for God's sake. I have grown up in this influence at its tail end. I for one > > will never wear a 'gaddi', the Indian version of a suit jacket or a kurta > > pajama. Simply because I have never worn any and I have no tolerance for > > these, though it is widely accepted. Can anyone force, say a gaddi or a > > kurta pajama on me? whatever may be the occasion?? Again, No sir. > > 3/4ths of Goa (by landmass) underwent a colonial experience which was > much similar to the rest of British India. No wonder every issue in > Goa (merger, language, airport, location of the university, MGP-UGP, > Konkan Railway route) gets polarised along communal/religious lines. > As long as we don't acknowledge differences in perception, we are > widening the gap. > > > Besides, I associate the gaddi and the kurta pajama absolutely with total > > corruption or total tolerance towards corruption, right from Nehru's time > > including Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru himself.. If my children want to wear a > > gaddi or a kurta pajama, it is their wish. I am out of it. > > You might be getting carried away by your rhetoric, Floriano. Nobody's > asking you to wear what they demand; someone is asking for a uniform > which is more in keeping with what they perceive as their cultural > traditions. > > > Likewise, salwar khameez as a mandatory dress code for girls in school is > > not acceptable if the particular school is registered with the main-stream > > governmental or non governmental organization, unless until there is a > > definate and unambiguous definition of the dress code. If girls are to wear > > salwar khameezes today, then the boys will wear what tomorrow? the RSS' > > Khaki shorts, white shirt and the black Gandhi topi??? > > This argument smacks of an authoritarian bent of mind and also an > inability to acknowledge cultural diversity ;-) > > > If Goa wants to get into the Indian influence and shed its western > > influence, then, as long as people like me are still alive and very much > > assertive, let there be a referendum on these sensitive issues. > > What next? A referendum on every issue? Goa doesn't want anything; a > section is laying down the rules in the schools it runs. And you don't > grant that right to them? Even if it shows gender bias, it is an > internal ma
