Re: [go-nuts] Will the generics support be enabled by default in Go 1.18?

2021-10-15 Thread Ian Lance Taylor 
On Fri, Oct 15, 2021, 12:49 AM Henry  wrote:

> I thought that hiding generics behind a flag is already a thing in Go 1.17?
>

For the record: not really.  1.17 happens to have some incomplete and buggy
support for type parameters, and there is an undocumented flag to turn that
on.  But nobody should be using it.

Ian





If a feature is solid enough for stable release, don't make it an opt-out.
> People can just avoid the language features they don't want to use. I
> disagree with the suggestion of adding stuffs to go.mod to enable or
> disable certain language features. If you are releasing a library for
> production and/or a public consumption, it should be stable enough that you
> don't need to include experimental language stuffs. If you include
> experimental stuffs in your projects, it is generally for your own toy
> projects that you should know well enough that you need to enable certain
> flags when building. No change to go.mod is necessary. Don't split the
> ecosystem. The last thing we need are libraries that are incompatible with
> one another. That happened to D. Even though they fixed it with D2, the
> language lost its moments and never recovered. I like D, but it is not a
> fad anymore and not many people use it.
> On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 6:05:54 PM UTC+7
> axel.wa...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:36 AM roger peppe  wrote:
>>
>>> ISTM that in a sense, generics *are* behind a flag in 1.18, on a
>>> per-module basis at any rate - if your go.mod file doesn't declare a Go
>>> version of at least 1.18, then you can't use type parameters.
>>>
>>
>> The (important) difference being that with a flag, we'd generally reserve
>> the right to change the behavior in the future, should experimentation show
>> it to be deficient, while this way, we can't - once we release generics, we
>> are bound to that. And setting there is no way to opt in to other aspects
>> of go 1.18 *without* also getting generics.
>>
>> I guess in theory we could have a `language_experiments = (generics)` (or
>> something) directive in go.mod, to *actually* get per-module opt-in to
>> "beta-features". AIUI that's kind of what Haskell does. This might still
>> split the ecosystem, though.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>


 > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:26:35 PM UTC+13 Ian Lance Taylor
 wrote:
 >>
 >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:55 AM nil...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 >> >
 >> > We are really excited about the coming generics support in Go, our
 test drive of the generics support in 1.17 is so far pretty positive and it
 would also allow us to immediately delete tens of thousands lines of code
 from our main project.
 >> >
 >> > Our understanding is that Go team's current plan is to have the
 generics support enabled by default in the 1.18 release scheduled for Feb
 2022. The question we are facing now is how much certainty we have on that.
 I mean if generics could get delayed until 1.19, which would be 10 months
 from now, then we should probably wait rather than switching to the full
 use of generics now.
 >> >
 >> > Could someone from the Go team provide us some guidance please?
 Shall we wait until the coming code freeze or maybe beta1 to expect more
 clarification?
 >>
 >> The current expectation is that Go 1.18 will support generics. The
 >> tip Go compiler already supports generics. There are bugs, but as
 >> they are reported they are being fixed. It is reasonably likely that
 >> some generics corner cases will not compile in Go 1.18, but the
 >> expectation is that straightforward uses of generics will work as
 >> expected. It is also likely that performance in Go 1.18 will not be
 >> as good as it will be in later releases.
 >>
 >> Of course, it's impossible to guarantee this. Something completely
 >> unexpected could happen. But that is the expectation. Hope this
 >> helps.
 >>
 >> Ian
 >
 > --
 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups "golang-nuts" group.
 > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
 send an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
 > To view this discussion on the web visit
 https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/a2b05910-9cdc-4fb4-94d5-61bd12812089n%40googlegroups.com
 .

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Re: [go-nuts] Will the generics support be enabled by default in Go 1.18?

2021-10-14 Thread Henry 
I thought that hiding generics behind a flag is already a thing in Go 1.17?

If a feature is solid enough for stable release, don't make it an opt-out. 
People can just avoid the language features they don't want to use. I 
disagree with the suggestion of adding stuffs to go.mod to enable or 
disable certain language features. If you are releasing a library for 
production and/or a public consumption, it should be stable enough that you 
don't need to include experimental language stuffs. If you include 
experimental stuffs in your projects, it is generally for your own toy 
projects that you should know well enough that you need to enable certain 
flags when building. No change to go.mod is necessary. Don't split the 
ecosystem. The last thing we need are libraries that are incompatible with 
one another. That happened to D. Even though they fixed it with D2, the 
language lost its moments and never recovered. I like D, but it is not a 
fad anymore and not many people use it.
On Wednesday, October 13, 2021 at 6:05:54 PM UTC+7 
axel.wa...@googlemail.com wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:36 AM roger peppe  wrote:
>
>> ISTM that in a sense, generics *are* behind a flag in 1.18, on a 
>> per-module basis at any rate - if your go.mod file doesn't declare a Go 
>> version of at least 1.18, then you can't use type parameters.
>>
>
> The (important) difference being that with a flag, we'd generally reserve 
> the right to change the behavior in the future, should experimentation show 
> it to be deficient, while this way, we can't - once we release generics, we 
> are bound to that. And setting there is no way to opt in to other aspects 
> of go 1.18 *without* also getting generics.
>
> I guess in theory we could have a `language_experiments = (generics)` (or 
> something) directive in go.mod, to *actually* get per-module opt-in to 
> "beta-features". AIUI that's kind of what Haskell does. This might still 
> split the ecosystem, though.
>  
>
>>
>>  
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:26:35 PM UTC+13 Ian Lance Taylor 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:55 AM nil...@gmail.com  
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > We are really excited about the coming generics support in Go, our 
>>> test drive of the generics support in 1.17 is so far pretty positive and it 
>>> would also allow us to immediately delete tens of thousands lines of code 
>>> from our main project.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Our understanding is that Go team's current plan is to have the 
>>> generics support enabled by default in the 1.18 release scheduled for Feb 
>>> 2022. The question we are facing now is how much certainty we have on that. 
>>> I mean if generics could get delayed until 1.19, which would be 10 months 
>>> from now, then we should probably wait rather than switching to the full 
>>> use of generics now.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Could someone from the Go team provide us some guidance please? 
>>> Shall we wait until the coming code freeze or maybe beta1 to expect more 
>>> clarification?
>>> >>
>>> >> The current expectation is that Go 1.18 will support generics. The
>>> >> tip Go compiler already supports generics. There are bugs, but as
>>> >> they are reported they are being fixed. It is reasonably likely that
>>> >> some generics corner cases will not compile in Go 1.18, but the
>>> >> expectation is that straightforward uses of generics will work as
>>> >> expected. It is also likely that performance in Go 1.18 will not be
>>> >> as good as it will be in later releases.
>>> >>
>>> >> Of course, it's impossible to guarantee this. Something completely
>>> >> unexpected could happen. But that is the expectation. Hope this
>>> >> helps.
>>> >>
>>> >> Ian
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "golang-nuts" group.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to golang-nuts...@googlegroups.com.
>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/a2b05910-9cdc-4fb4-94d5-61bd12812089n%40googlegroups.com
>>> .
>>>
>>> -- 
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>>> .
>>>
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> To view this discussion on the web visit 
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>>  
>>

Re: [go-nuts] Will the generics support be enabled by default in Go 1.18?

2021-10-13 Thread 'Axel Wagner' via golang-nuts 
On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:36 AM roger peppe  wrote:

> ISTM that in a sense, generics *are* behind a flag in 1.18, on a
> per-module basis at any rate - if your go.mod file doesn't declare a Go
> version of at least 1.18, then you can't use type parameters.
>

The (important) difference being that with a flag, we'd generally reserve
the right to change the behavior in the future, should experimentation show
it to be deficient, while this way, we can't - once we release generics, we
are bound to that. And setting there is no way to opt in to other aspects
of go 1.18 *without* also getting generics.

I guess in theory we could have a `language_experiments = (generics)` (or
something) directive in go.mod, to *actually* get per-module opt-in to
"beta-features". AIUI that's kind of what Haskell does. This might still
split the ecosystem, though.


>
>
>
>>
>>
>> > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:26:35 PM UTC+13 Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:55 AM nil...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > We are really excited about the coming generics support in Go, our
>> test drive of the generics support in 1.17 is so far pretty positive and it
>> would also allow us to immediately delete tens of thousands lines of code
>> from our main project.
>> >> >
>> >> > Our understanding is that Go team's current plan is to have the
>> generics support enabled by default in the 1.18 release scheduled for Feb
>> 2022. The question we are facing now is how much certainty we have on that.
>> I mean if generics could get delayed until 1.19, which would be 10 months
>> from now, then we should probably wait rather than switching to the full
>> use of generics now.
>> >> >
>> >> > Could someone from the Go team provide us some guidance please?
>> Shall we wait until the coming code freeze or maybe beta1 to expect more
>> clarification?
>> >>
>> >> The current expectation is that Go 1.18 will support generics. The
>> >> tip Go compiler already supports generics. There are bugs, but as
>> >> they are reported they are being fixed. It is reasonably likely that
>> >> some generics corner cases will not compile in Go 1.18, but the
>> >> expectation is that straightforward uses of generics will work as
>> >> expected. It is also likely that performance in Go 1.18 will not be
>> >> as good as it will be in later releases.
>> >>
>> >> Of course, it's impossible to guarantee this. Something completely
>> >> unexpected could happen. But that is the expectation. Hope this
>> >> helps.
>> >>
>> >> Ian
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "golang-nuts" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> an email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/a2b05910-9cdc-4fb4-94d5-61bd12812089n%40googlegroups.com
>> .
>>
>> --
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>> .
>>
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> .
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Will the generics support be enabled by default in Go 1.18?

2021-10-13 Thread roger peppe 
On Tue, 12 Oct 2021 at 01:42, Ian Lance Taylor  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 2:36 AM peter.m...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
> >
> > I'm curious, was any consideration given to hiding generics behind a
> flag in 1.18?  The idea being it's such a complex feature that one could
> imagine a backwards incompatible change being desirable if some weird issue
> is found.
>
> Yes, we considered that idea, and decided against it.  Since many
> people are interested in generics, the effect would be to split the Go
> ecosystem: many projects would immediately adopt generics, and many
> wouldn't.  Then as people depended on other packages, and those
> packages started using generics, people who were otherwise not using
> generics would be forced to turn them on in a haphazard process.  It
> seems better for the ecosystem to just permit generics everywhere.
>
> Ian
>

ISTM that in a sense, generics *are* behind a flag in 1.18, on a per-module
basis at any rate - if your go.mod file doesn't declare a Go version of at
least 1.18, then you can't use type parameters.



>
>
> > On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:26:35 PM UTC+13 Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:55 AM nil...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > We are really excited about the coming generics support in Go, our
> test drive of the generics support in 1.17 is so far pretty positive and it
> would also allow us to immediately delete tens of thousands lines of code
> from our main project.
> >> >
> >> > Our understanding is that Go team's current plan is to have the
> generics support enabled by default in the 1.18 release scheduled for Feb
> 2022. The question we are facing now is how much certainty we have on that.
> I mean if generics could get delayed until 1.19, which would be 10 months
> from now, then we should probably wait rather than switching to the full
> use of generics now.
> >> >
> >> > Could someone from the Go team provide us some guidance please? Shall
> we wait until the coming code freeze or maybe beta1 to expect more
> clarification?
> >>
> >> The current expectation is that Go 1.18 will support generics. The
> >> tip Go compiler already supports generics. There are bugs, but as
> >> they are reported they are being fixed. It is reasonably likely that
> >> some generics corner cases will not compile in Go 1.18, but the
> >> expectation is that straightforward uses of generics will work as
> >> expected. It is also likely that performance in Go 1.18 will not be
> >> as good as it will be in later releases.
> >>
> >> Of course, it's impossible to guarantee this. Something completely
> >> unexpected could happen. But that is the expectation. Hope this
> >> helps.
> >>
> >> Ian
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "golang-nuts" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to golang-nuts+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/golang-nuts/a2b05910-9cdc-4fb4-94d5-61bd12812089n%40googlegroups.com
> .
>
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> .
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Will the generics support be enabled by default in Go 1.18?

2021-10-11 Thread Ian Lance Taylor 
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 2:36 AM peter.m...@gmail.com
 wrote:
>
> I'm curious, was any consideration given to hiding generics behind a flag in 
> 1.18?  The idea being it's such a complex feature that one could imagine a 
> backwards incompatible change being desirable if some weird issue is found.

Yes, we considered that idea, and decided against it.  Since many
people are interested in generics, the effect would be to split the Go
ecosystem: many projects would immediately adopt generics, and many
wouldn't.  Then as people depended on other packages, and those
packages started using generics, people who were otherwise not using
generics would be forced to turn them on in a haphazard process.  It
seems better for the ecosystem to just permit generics everywhere.

Ian



> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:26:35 PM UTC+13 Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:55 AM nil...@gmail.com  wrote:
>> >
>> > We are really excited about the coming generics support in Go, our test 
>> > drive of the generics support in 1.17 is so far pretty positive and it 
>> > would also allow us to immediately delete tens of thousands lines of code 
>> > from our main project.
>> >
>> > Our understanding is that Go team's current plan is to have the generics 
>> > support enabled by default in the 1.18 release scheduled for Feb 2022. The 
>> > question we are facing now is how much certainty we have on that. I mean 
>> > if generics could get delayed until 1.19, which would be 10 months from 
>> > now, then we should probably wait rather than switching to the full use of 
>> > generics now.
>> >
>> > Could someone from the Go team provide us some guidance please? Shall we 
>> > wait until the coming code freeze or maybe beta1 to expect more 
>> > clarification?
>>
>> The current expectation is that Go 1.18 will support generics. The
>> tip Go compiler already supports generics. There are bugs, but as
>> they are reported they are being fixed. It is reasonably likely that
>> some generics corner cases will not compile in Go 1.18, but the
>> expectation is that straightforward uses of generics will work as
>> expected. It is also likely that performance in Go 1.18 will not be
>> as good as it will be in later releases.
>>
>> Of course, it's impossible to guarantee this. Something completely
>> unexpected could happen. But that is the expectation. Hope this
>> helps.
>>
>> Ian
>
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Re: [go-nuts] Will the generics support be enabled by default in Go 1.18?

2021-10-11 Thread Ian Lance Taylor 
On Mon, Oct 11, 2021 at 12:59 AM nil...@gmail.com  wrote:
>
> I totally understand that nothing is guaranteed. Just wondering what is Go 
> team's release policy regarding the deadline. Is that a hard deadline? I 
> guess the generics support is the biggest component in 1.18 (and also the one 
> many people have been waiting for long :) ), if something unexpected happens 
> to it close to the planned release date, will the Go team be willing to delay 
> the release for a couple of weeks to allow generics to be included or the 
> current release policy would require the team to disable the generics in 1.18 
> to ship the 1.18 on time?

It's difficult to answer these kinds of questions as precisely as one
might wish.  Go is an open source project with no paying customers.
We have policies that we do our best to follow, but they're a bit like
the pirate code: more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules.
In the case of conflicting plans we'll try to come to some consensus
as to how best to proceed.

I'll note that for the last few years almost every release has been a
week or two late, so the release date is definitely not a hard
deadline.  But a big decision like pulling generics out would most
likely be made well ahead of the release date.

Ian




> On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 12:26:35 PM UTC+8 Ian Lance Taylor wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:55 AM nil...@gmail.com  wrote:
>> >
>> > We are really excited about the coming generics support in Go, our test 
>> > drive of the generics support in 1.17 is so far pretty positive and it 
>> > would also allow us to immediately delete tens of thousands lines of code 
>> > from our main project.
>> >
>> > Our understanding is that Go team's current plan is to have the generics 
>> > support enabled by default in the 1.18 release scheduled for Feb 2022. The 
>> > question we are facing now is how much certainty we have on that. I mean 
>> > if generics could get delayed until 1.19, which would be 10 months from 
>> > now, then we should probably wait rather than switching to the full use of 
>> > generics now.
>> >
>> > Could someone from the Go team provide us some guidance please? Shall we 
>> > wait until the coming code freeze or maybe beta1 to expect more 
>> > clarification?
>>
>> The current expectation is that Go 1.18 will support generics. The
>> tip Go compiler already supports generics. There are bugs, but as
>> they are reported they are being fixed. It is reasonably likely that
>> some generics corner cases will not compile in Go 1.18, but the
>> expectation is that straightforward uses of generics will work as
>> expected. It is also likely that performance in Go 1.18 will not be
>> as good as it will be in later releases.
>>
>> Of course, it's impossible to guarantee this. Something completely
>> unexpected could happen. But that is the expectation. Hope this
>> helps.
>>
>> Ian
>
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Re: [go-nuts] Will the generics support be enabled by default in Go 1.18?

2021-10-11 Thread peter.m...@gmail.com 
I'm curious, was any consideration given to hiding generics behind a flag 
in 1.18?  The idea being it's such a complex feature that one could imagine 
a backwards incompatible change being desirable if some weird issue is 
found.

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 5:26:35 PM UTC+13 Ian Lance Taylor wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:55 AM nil...@gmail.com  wrote:
> >
> > We are really excited about the coming generics support in Go, our test 
> drive of the generics support in 1.17 is so far pretty positive and it 
> would also allow us to immediately delete tens of thousands lines of code 
> from our main project.
> >
> > Our understanding is that Go team's current plan is to have the generics 
> support enabled by default in the 1.18 release scheduled for Feb 2022. The 
> question we are facing now is how much certainty we have on that. I mean if 
> generics could get delayed until 1.19, which would be 10 months from now, 
> then we should probably wait rather than switching to the full use of 
> generics now.
> >
> > Could someone from the Go team provide us some guidance please? Shall we 
> wait until the coming code freeze or maybe beta1 to expect more 
> clarification?
>
> The current expectation is that Go 1.18 will support generics. The
> tip Go compiler already supports generics. There are bugs, but as
> they are reported they are being fixed. It is reasonably likely that
> some generics corner cases will not compile in Go 1.18, but the
> expectation is that straightforward uses of generics will work as
> expected. It is also likely that performance in Go 1.18 will not be
> as good as it will be in later releases.
>
> Of course, it's impossible to guarantee this. Something completely
> unexpected could happen. But that is the expectation. Hope this
> helps.
>
> Ian
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Will the generics support be enabled by default in Go 1.18?

2021-10-11 Thread nil...@gmail.com 
Hi Ian, thanks for the reply. 

I totally understand that nothing is guaranteed. Just wondering what is Go 
team's release policy regarding the deadline. Is that a hard deadline? I 
guess the generics support is the biggest component in 1.18 (and also the 
one many people have been waiting for long :) ), if something unexpected 
happens to it close to the planned release date, will the Go team be 
willing to delay the release for a couple of weeks to allow generics to be 
included or the current release policy would require the team to disable 
the generics in 1.18 to ship the 1.18 on time?



Cheers,

Lei 
  

On Monday, October 11, 2021 at 12:26:35 PM UTC+8 Ian Lance Taylor wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:55 AM nil...@gmail.com  wrote:
> >
> > We are really excited about the coming generics support in Go, our test 
> drive of the generics support in 1.17 is so far pretty positive and it 
> would also allow us to immediately delete tens of thousands lines of code 
> from our main project.
> >
> > Our understanding is that Go team's current plan is to have the generics 
> support enabled by default in the 1.18 release scheduled for Feb 2022. The 
> question we are facing now is how much certainty we have on that. I mean if 
> generics could get delayed until 1.19, which would be 10 months from now, 
> then we should probably wait rather than switching to the full use of 
> generics now.
> >
> > Could someone from the Go team provide us some guidance please? Shall we 
> wait until the coming code freeze or maybe beta1 to expect more 
> clarification?
>
> The current expectation is that Go 1.18 will support generics. The
> tip Go compiler already supports generics. There are bugs, but as
> they are reported they are being fixed. It is reasonably likely that
> some generics corner cases will not compile in Go 1.18, but the
> expectation is that straightforward uses of generics will work as
> expected. It is also likely that performance in Go 1.18 will not be
> as good as it will be in later releases.
>
> Of course, it's impossible to guarantee this. Something completely
> unexpected could happen. But that is the expectation. Hope this
> helps.
>
> Ian
>

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Re: [go-nuts] Will the generics support be enabled by default in Go 1.18?

2021-10-10 Thread Ian Lance Taylor 
On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 2:55 AM nil...@gmail.com  wrote:
>
> We are really excited about the coming generics support in Go, our test drive 
> of the generics support in 1.17 is so far pretty positive and it would also 
> allow us to immediately delete tens of thousands lines of code from our main 
> project.
>
> Our understanding is that Go team's current plan is to have the generics 
> support enabled by default in the 1.18 release scheduled for Feb 2022. The 
> question we are facing now is how much certainty we have on that. I mean if 
> generics could get delayed until 1.19, which would be 10 months from now, 
> then we should probably wait rather than switching to the full use of 
> generics now.
>
> Could someone from the Go team provide us some guidance please? Shall we wait 
> until the coming code freeze or maybe beta1 to expect more clarification?

The current expectation is that Go 1.18 will support generics.  The
tip Go compiler already supports generics.  There are bugs, but as
they are reported they are being fixed.  It is reasonably likely that
some generics corner cases will not compile in Go 1.18, but the
expectation is that straightforward uses of generics will work as
expected.  It is also likely that performance in Go 1.18 will not be
as good as it will be in later releases.

Of course, it's impossible to guarantee this.  Something completely
unexpected could happen.  But that is the expectation.  Hope this
helps.

Ian

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[go-nuts] Will the generics support be enabled by default in Go 1.18?

2021-10-10 Thread nil...@gmail.com 
Hi all,

We are really excited about the coming generics support in Go, our test 
drive of the generics support in 1.17 is so far pretty positive and it 
would also allow us to immediately delete tens of thousands lines of code 
from our main project. 

Our understanding is that Go team's current plan is to have the generics 
support enabled by default in the 1.18 release scheduled for Feb 2022. The 
question we are facing now is how much certainty we have on that. I mean if 
generics could get delayed until 1.19, which would be 10 months from now, 
then we should probably wait rather than switching to the full use of 
generics now. 

Could someone from the Go team provide us some guidance please? Shall we 
wait until the coming code freeze or maybe beta1 to expect more 
clarification? 



Cheers,

Lei  

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