Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-05-03 Thread Ed
Hi,

I opened an issue in the issue tracker concerning above problems:
http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/issues/detail?id=4903
Let's hope enough people experience the same problems (and vote the
issue) such that improvements are made.

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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-05-02 Thread Stefan Bachert
Hi Ed,

Regarding UI-Binder
The fact that others are using similar concepts like Ui-Binder does
not make it right. It just make it common.
(150 years ago woman suffrage was not common, but would you say it was
right what 150 years ago was common?)
What is wrong with UI-Binder?
a) it is an other XML-based language. XML is not really human
readable. It the end, you need a tool.
b) it is a further language. Everything you could do with it, could be
done with java, too.
You could write very declarative java code if you like. No need
for Ui-Binder
c) it is not expandable at the moment. Try to add your own widgets.
d) It does not support theming. Changing a theme means recoding the UI-
binder

UI-Binder is a concept fitting rather to the mindset of a web designer
(this one graphical beautyful application (NO plural!)) than to a web
developer (deliver functional, supportable applications).

Being fast
Most companies suffers on the long run from doing things quickly but
not right. These companies will pay the price in future.
Because they are unable to change their theme or skin.


Single point of control
I want to be able to change all my widgets used in an application at a
single place.
And it should be regardless whether this widget comes from gwt core,
widget library a or widget library b or from me or my colleague.


Style modules
To exchange a style module it must be separated. that is the
consequence of your reduced requirements.
So each of your reusable widgets need an own style module. It has to
be duplicated for each theme.
When you are having 30 widgets used in 5 applications with different
styles (aka theme/skin) you need 150 style modules.
With a1decor you need 5 different implementations of a theme.

It is alway surprising that a more complete solution do reduce the
effort


Definition of a theme in the sense of a1decor:
A consistent graphical representation of widgets and symbols.
layout is not considered to be an issue of a theme in this sense.

CSS
CSS was advocated by separating structure from style. This is a
variant of separation of concerns.
However, within a CSS there is NO possibility to separate further
concerns.
With CSS I see at least to following concerns within
a) layout/visibility should not placed in .css-file at all.
b) theming attributes (borders, colors)
c) functionality attributes. (e.g pointer kinds)

a) is separated because it applies from code not from css-file. This
is rather an accident than designed.
Often we just have luck because different concerns affect different
style-attributes. But this is not guarantied

When b) and c) want to affect the same css-attribute (let's say
padding) there is no way to express it.
a concrete example is pressing a button:
from functionality point of view you want different paddings when
pressed and when not pressed, to make them look like pushed in.
from theming point of view you want to apply a certain padding
(compact versus broad).
However, in the end you need to apply a single value to the padding-
attribute. There is no way to express that padding is defined by TWO
concerns, not even how they apply (add, min, max ..).

The lesson learned is:
pure declarative systems are going to fail when trying to increasing
the degree of separation.
You need some kind of procedural language to separate concerns, or
better to consolidate multiple concerns to one value.

Due to this lesson learned Ui-Binder will fail in large
applications, too (due to: pure declarative without procedural
language).
I definitely will not wait until this happens. I am using Ui-Binder
just for quick and dirty toys, and may be for some test cases.

For a consistent gui all widgets must share similar attributes. Your
questions sounds as this is no issue for you. One widget look compact,
the other looks broad?
Anyway, when you do adapt a consistent theme to all your widgets you
need to change many styles. This is a lot of work and is in general
not done.
Or you have a single point of control

It is right that the current way implies more freedom than with
a1decor, but when this implies an enormous amount of effort you will
never use your freedom. So what did you win?
(did you know the joke: Marketing; We want to deliver the most
adaptable flexible program: Development: OK, guys, tomorrow we deliver
Java or C++ to our customers)

regarding the large @def section:
It may be annoying because it is just convention not programming.
However, two things may happen
a) you just need a subset for a specific widget
b) maybe some one do an special CssResource-Generator were all that
conventional stuff is implied.

I am going to start on that. It addresses the problem which is far
from generally understood, and maybe someone comes up with an great
idea to make it easier.
I do not fear this because the most work is defining the css and a
better solution will probably only reduce to conventions part while
still using the css.


Stefan Bachert
http://gwtworld.de

On May 1, 11:00 pm, Ed 

Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-05-02 Thread Ed
Thanks Stefan, interesting thoughts.
Don't forget to add/insert examples sometimes as otherwise it's very
hard to follow through just paper... :(
For example: the problems you point out are better understood through
a concrete example..
And don't forget that the UIBinder has just came out, and far from
perfect... but it does fulfills a need for a group of people (just
like you use it for toy app's)...
Maybe in the next release of GWT we won't use CSS files anymore for
widgets, but rather some CssResourse (xml) file/annotations.
I think a  CssResource-Generator  would be a great idea.
BTW: you might want to post your idea's in the GWT contributor list.
They are always open for good idea's.

Ed

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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-05-01 Thread Ed
Hm. The disadvantage of Gmail is that don't even realize that your
are mailing a person or group (if you don't pay good attention like I
did)...
Anyway, I received an email from Stefan about this a1decorator project
and this was mine reaction:
Hi Stefan,

---
Looked at your project and played with it, but I don't think it's not
solving my problem and it's not the way I like to work with styles.
Why should I want to put my style value's in code like you do in your
DecorInterface?

I want them only in CSS files that come with a widget. That's the nice
thing about this CssResource concept, you can have one widget with one
or more Css files, resulting in clear checked compact css files.

The idea is to be able to replace/inject another CSS file with the
same widget (injecting/using another Client bundle).

GWT also advices to put all your Style value's in CSS files. I expect
that GWT will also make more use of the ClientBundle/CssResource
concept for their widgets in the up comming releases, with the risk
that your concept will lose his power. And when using your code, you
might have to refactor a lot of code when upgrading to a newer gwt
release..
Just my thoughts, but maybe I miss understand it..

Anyway, back to my problems: like my original question: can you point
out how your code solves  my problems listed above ?

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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-05-01 Thread Ed
Thanks Sefan,

I agree with you on some of the issues you discuss, but not all of
them.
You are right that GWT's ClientBundle/CssResource concepts still have
some issues, just like their widget design (some of my issues are in
the issue tracker).
But I don't think the UIBinder is a step back. Don't forget that many
company's have to deliver fast and such work with GUI design tools
like GWT Designer. UIBinder is the foundation for such tools. It's not
for nothing that facelets became part of the JSF 2.0 spec and the Flex
template mechanisme is the huge success behind Flex, all founded on
the same concepts.
Thet GWT dev team is just very careful and don't want to create a lock-
in situation, so.. that is sometimes frustrating... but that's how it
is and it probably takes a few releases ..

Anyway, some of my answers are inlined, looking forward to your
answers.

 Because you want to have a single point of control.

What do you mean by this? Isn't that the whole idea of ClientBundle/
CssResource Even with his current problems/restrictions

 That is a fault. When you bind a widget to a certain css no change is
 possible. But you want to have a change to chance.

Why isn't this possible ?... Suppose a widget has his own css files,
the developer can copy this and use it to inject his own css file
through his own client bundle... at least... that is the gwt way...
And you can always fine tune with dependent style names.

 However, the technique you need for your reduced requirement is used
 in a1decor. You just do variants like a1decor-style do. You separate
 yourCssResourcein an own module. Each variant is just a duplicate of
 this module with modified values. You select theCssResourceyou need
 per class path, that is the trick.

I can't really follow you here, can you give me a concrete example?
I have dozens of reusable widgets, I hope I don't need to a style
module for every one of them :(...


 I feel this jumps too short. In common you don't want to change the
 css of a single widget, you want to change the theme of a whole
 application.

What do you mean by this? How do you define you Theme then ?
To me this sounds a bit too course grained and a different kind of
problem...
I simple want to be able to change my style values of one reusable
(composite) widget.
Do you mean that you define a theme as the collection of style
definitions of the resusable widgets that you use in your app ?...
This comes down to the same problem I think, as I don't want to change
the Theme, as I only want to change one reusable widget Why should
I need to change my Theme for this ?

...
 From the values within a css there are at least two sorts:
 a) one related with a theme
 b) one related with functionality
 The general problem with css is, that is does not really is able to
 separate concerns. This is funny because css was advocated with this
 argument. But css failed to fulfill this. You could not separate
 concerns when they affect to the same css-style (e.g. because a
 functionality and a theming aspect want to change padding. But luck,
 either or, but no AND possible)..

Sorry, you are losing me here. Can you give a concrete example?

 I did not expect this. GWT needs to run legacy app, too. So GWT will
 not automatically bindCssResourceto core widgets. Just wait a see.

Yep, I am also afraid of that, which is also what Thomas mentions
above...
I guess we will see major changes in this area in version 3.0...

I like your idea's btw, but I am not very sure if it's very practical
in larger app's and if it's the best solution in my case.
If I look at my GWT app's, which are complex and have a total code
base of about 2MB (downloaded in pieces).. I am a afraid it will
become very messy if setup my css files like you propose...
For example: if I look at my date picker styles, they will get very
large with all the @def at's, not even to speak about all the code
behind is. Of course the compiler will optimize a lot, but stilll.. it
als has to be manageable.
So I gain a lot of freedom and can override then every style value of
my datepicker, but the question is: is this flexible worth the bunch
of extra more-difficult maintainable code ? I don't know to honest...

Ed


On May 1, 10:23 pm, Ed post2edb...@gmail.com wrote:
 And Stefan answered this back:
 Hi Stefan,

  Looked at your project and played with it, but I don't think it's not 
  solving my problem and it's not the way I like to work with styles.
  Why should I want to put my style value's in code like you do in your 
  DecorInterface?

 Because you want to have a single point of control.
 And the other benefits documented on the project page of a1decor

  I want them only in CSS files that come with a widget.

 That is a fault. When you bind a widget to a certain css no change is
 possible. But you want to have a change to chance.

 That's the nice thing about thisCssResourceconcept, you can have one
 widget with one or more Css files, resulting in clear 

Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-04-29 Thread Stefan Bachert
Hi Ed,

wait a few days. I am about to publish a project which probably covers
your issue,

Stefan Bachert
http://gwtworld.de

On 27 Apr., 16:00, Ed post2edb...@gmail.com wrote:
  Have you had a read 
  through:http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideClientBundle.htm...

 Of course, every line

  What are you trying to do?  Do you have some code samples?

 Suppose I have my own button class called Button and want to use
 CssResource to set the styles in such a way that another developer
 that uses Button can change the style.

 Idea's?

 Ed

 On Apr 27, 3:38 pm, Mike m...@sheridan-net.us wrote:

  Ed,

  What are you trying to do?  Do you have some code samples?

  Have you had a read 
  through:http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideClientBundle.htm...

  Cheers

  On Apr 27, 3:43 am, Ed post2edb...@hotmail.com wrote:

   Why is GWT not using CssResource to set styles on his components like
   a Button/Label?

   I find it hard to use CssResources on reusable widgets, such that the
   styles can still be changed through the API of the widget  by the
   outside world :(..
   Maybe GWT experiences the same problems ?...
   What am I missing here ?

   Ed

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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-04-29 Thread Ed
 Have you guys seen 
 this:http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/source/browse/trunk/user/...
Yep, I have the GWT source in my Eclipse but neither could I find any
answers their :(


On Apr 29, 4:42 am, Mike m...@sheridan-net.us wrote:
 Have you guys seen 
 this:http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/source/browse/trunk/user/...
 ?

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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-04-29 Thread Ed
 wait a few days. I am about to publish a project which probably covers
 your issue,
Looking forward to it and hope it will give answers to the problems
listed above.


On Apr 29, 9:02 am, Stefan Bachert stefanbach...@yahoo.de wrote:
 Hi Ed,

 wait a few days. I am about to publish a project which probably covers
 your issue,

 Stefan Bacherthttp://gwtworld.de

 On 27 Apr., 16:00, Ed post2edb...@gmail.com wrote:



   Have you had a read 
   through:http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideClientBundle.htm...

  Of course, every line

   What are you trying to do?  Do you have some code samples?

  Suppose I have my own button class called Button and want to use
  CssResource to set the styles in such a way that another developer
  that uses Button can change the style.

  Idea's?

  Ed

  On Apr 27, 3:38 pm, Mike m...@sheridan-net.us wrote:

   Ed,

   What are you trying to do?  Do you have some code samples?

   Have you had a read 
   through:http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideClientBundle.htm...

   Cheers

   On Apr 27, 3:43 am, Ed post2edb...@hotmail.com wrote:

Why is GWT not using CssResource to set styles on his components like
a Button/Label?

I find it hard to use CssResources on reusable widgets, such that the
styles can still be changed through the API of the widget  by the
outside world :(..
Maybe GWT experiences the same problems ?...
What am I missing here ?

Ed

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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-04-28 Thread Ed
 Because noone took the time to do it? (and GWT being a toolkit, it has
 to account for both backwards and forwards compat, so it must be well
 thought out from the beginning)

That's understandable, but still, like you mention below, they do use
it widgets like Tree, etc..

 What's the problem? If you call setStylePrimaryName or
..
 I haven't tried it, but passing some specializedCssResourceor

Please try it and use CssResource in a resuable widget, and you will
see that it's much harder then you think (otherwise I wouldn't ask..)
I started just like you mention what's the problem, must be 123
finish... I found out otherwise..

 GWT already uses ImageResource and ClientBundle (when multiple
 ImageResources are needed), and it shouldn't be really different with
 aCssResource. Have a look at Tree and its Tree.Resources, MenuBar and

I know the GWT usage, and these only use the Client bundle, not the
CssResource!
And the CssResource usage is much harder...

My question: best practices of the CssResource in reusable widgets...
The doc explains the theory but is missing good examples.

Let me explain my problem through a use case:
Suppose we have a MyButton that needs an image and style and that we
can inject the client bundle through the constructor:

MyButton() {
  this(GWT.create(MyButtonClientBundle.class));
}

MyButton(final MyButtonClientBundle resource) {
  this.resource = resource;
}

The client bundle:
MyButtonClientBundle extends ClientBundle{
  @Source(back.png)
  ImageResource back();

@Source(mybutton.css)
MyButtonCssResource getCss();
}

And:
MyButtonCssResource extends CssResource {
@ClassName(but)
String button();
}

And the mybutton.css contains:
  .but {
   background-color: #ff00ff;
  }

Some developer comes along and likes to use the MyButton and change
the background color. How can he do this?... I donnoo :(...
The problems I see:
- He has to extend MyButtonClientBundle with his own version,
something like ReuseClientBundle that he specifies through the
MyButton constructor... He will override the method getCss and
specifies his own stylesheet.
However the compiler will see two getCss() methods and will load both
stylesheets, which is not be desirable as he want to set his own
background color.
How to deal with this?
An idea would be to only inject the MyButtonResource in MyButton, but
then we are missing the ImageResource that MyButton needs :( ..

- Suppose that he don't want to change the background color, but just
some padding.
In this case he will not have a problem with the injection witht he
sylesheet through MyButtonClientButton, as it doesn't set the padding,
but how do you share the same obfuscated name such he can inject his
own stylesheet that contains something like:
 .panel .but {
  padding: 10px;
 }

I did this, and it won't work as the style set in MyButton that comes
from MyButtonCssResource has a different obfuscated names. I could
solve this by the @external annotation, but that is for legacy code,
and mine is brand new.. :(..
I think that it might be solved through the @Share or @Import
annotation, but I don't fully understand that...

It's lot of text above, but I hope some of the problems are clear now.
Ed

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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-04-28 Thread Ahmed Sief






From: Ed Bras post2edb...@gmail.com
To: google-web-toolkit@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 6:10:30 PM
Subject: Re: GWT not using CssResources??

 I think the @External annotation on your Css could help you there, too
Like mentioned in the doc, this is for legacy support (I use it in other 
places).
I want to support the correct way of using CssResource, but don't understand 
very well how to use it in the case below.
Ed




On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Tsukasa hara...@googlemail.com wrote:

I think the @External annotation on your Css could help you there, too
- if I have understood all latest posts correctly. Try the following
documentation 
http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/wiki/CssResource#External_and_legacy_scopes

On 27 Apr., 16:00, Ed post2edb...@gmail.com wrote:
  Have you had a read 
  through:http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideClientBundle.htm...

 Of course, every line

  What are you trying to do?  Do you have some code samples?

 Suppose I have my own button class called Button and want to use
 CssResource to set the styles in such a way that another developer
 that uses Button can change the style.

 Idea's?

 Ed

 On Apr 27, 3:38 pm, Mike m...@sheridan-net.us wrote:





  Ed,

  What are you trying to do?  Do you have some code samples?

  Have you had a read 
  through:http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideClientBundle.htm...

  Cheers

  On Apr 27, 3:43 am, Ed post2edb...@hotmail.com wrote:

   Why is GWT not using CssResource to set styles on his components like
   a Button/Label?

   I find it hard to use CssResources on reusable widgets, such that the
   styles can still be changed through the API of the widget  by the
   outside world :(..
   Maybe GWT experiences the same problems ?...
   What am I missing here ?

   Ed

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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-04-28 Thread Tsukasa
In fact I'm really interrested in this too and hope to find my time
writing some little easy example in about a week. unfortunately my
schedule up to then is ... (don't make me say it...)

If anyone else might want to fetch up the idea earlier I won't be
disapointed

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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-04-27 Thread Mike
Ed,

What are you trying to do?  Do you have some code samples?

Have you had a read through: 
http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideClientBundle.html#CssResource

Cheers

On Apr 27, 3:43 am, Ed post2edb...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Why is GWT not using CssResource to set styles on his components like
 a Button/Label?

 I find it hard to use CssResources on reusable widgets, such that the
 styles can still be changed through the API of the widget  by the
 outside world :(..
 Maybe GWT experiences the same problems ?...
 What am I missing here ?

 Ed

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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-04-27 Thread Ed Bras
 I think the @External annotation on your Css could help you there, too
Like mentioned in the doc, this is for legacy support (I use it in other
places).
I want to support the correct way of using CssResource, but don't understand
very well how to use it in the case below.
Ed



On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Tsukasa hara...@googlemail.com wrote:

 I think the @External annotation on your Css could help you there, too
 - if I have understood all latest posts correctly. Try the following
 documentation
 http://code.google.com/p/google-web-toolkit/wiki/CssResource#External_and_legacy_scopes

 On 27 Apr., 16:00, Ed post2edb...@gmail.com wrote:
   Have you had a read through:
 http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideClientBundle.htm...
 
  Of course, every line
 
   What are you trying to do?  Do you have some code samples?
 
  Suppose I have my own button class called Button and want to use
  CssResource to set the styles in such a way that another developer
  that uses Button can change the style.
 
  Idea's?
 
  Ed
 
  On Apr 27, 3:38 pm, Mike m...@sheridan-net.us wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
   Ed,
 
   What are you trying to do?  Do you have some code samples?
 
   Have you had a read through:
 http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/doc/latest/DevGuideClientBundle.htm...
 
   Cheers
 
   On Apr 27, 3:43 am, Ed post2edb...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
Why is GWT not using CssResource to set styles on his components like
a Button/Label?
 
I find it hard to use CssResources on reusable widgets, such that the
styles can still be changed through the API of the widget  by the
outside world :(..
Maybe GWT experiences the same problems ?...
What am I missing here ?
 
Ed
 
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Re: GWT not using CssResources??

2010-04-27 Thread Thomas Broyer


On 27 avr, 10:43, Ed post2edb...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Why is GWT not using CssResource to set styles on his components like
 a Button/Label?

Because noone took the time to do it? (and GWT being a toolkit, it has
to account for both backwards and forwards compat, so it must be well
thought out from the beginning)

 I find it hard to use CssResources on reusable widgets, such that the
 styles can still be changed through the API of the widget  by the
 outside world :(..

What's the problem? If you call setStylePrimaryName or
addStyleDependentName you should know what you're doing and which are
the consequences. The idea is that widgets document (in their JavaDoc)
what they're doing internally (default stylePrimaryName, dependent
names added or removed on which actions/events, add/removeStyleName on
which actions/events)

I haven't tried it, but passing some specialized CssResource or
ClientBundle to the constructor and then only using
setStylePrimaryName and add/removeStyleName (obviously not dependent
style names) should do it.
GWT already uses ImageResource and ClientBundle (when multiple
ImageResources are needed), and it shouldn't be really different with
a CssResource. Have a look at Tree and its Tree.Resources, MenuBar and
its MenuBar.Resources, HorizontalSplitPanel and VerticalSplitPanel and
their *.Resources, and DisclosurePanel which makes direct use of
ImageResource,


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