Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors]

Just a correction; we have a prototype generator that allows TypeScript
inputs but currently we are not using TypeScript for generating Elemental.
We instead use Closure externs files that are nicely typed:
https://github.com/google/closure-compiler/tree/master/externs

Generator currently using common ancestor for union types.

On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 7:27 AM, Paul Stockley  wrote:

> It will be interesting to see how using typescript definitions work out.
> From my experience of using them, many leave a lot to be desired from a
> strict typing point of view. A lot of people get lazy and just use 'any'
> everywhere. How will you handle union types? e.g.  string | int |
> someobject | array
>
> I can see them being a good starting point but probably they will require
> manual changes to make user friendly Java API's.
>
>
> On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 4:39:20 AM UTC-5, Rene Hangstrup Møller
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> A year ago I tried to write a tool for generating JsInterop classes from
>> WebIDL, I abandoned the project because there was no good solution for
>> method overloading and constructors back then. I know others have attempted
>> the same.
>>
>> It looks like the new JsInterop spec solves those problems, so i was
>> considering reviving that project, but I don't want to waste the time if
>> Elemental 2 is going to be released within the next couple of months.
>>
>> I guess it should be possible to release it as a separate project that
>> can be used from GWT 2.8 and the in the far future J2CL.
>>
>> Any chance that Elemental 2 will be available shortly or should I build
>> my own?
>>
>> Best regards
>> Rene
>>
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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[Ming-Yee Iu]

Wow, that's great! I noticed yesterday that Firefox finally added support 
for stuff like clientX and pageX too. For years, they refused to implement 
stuff like that.

Oh, mighty Apple web developers! Your absolute refusal to test your code on 
anything except Safari has finally felled even the mighty Mozilla! Despite 
its limited market share, Safari truly is the new IE6 of Internet.

Nevertheless, having easy knockouts of API functionality would be nice. In 
fact, my dream API would be to have something like @Deprecated. There would 
be annotations on the APIs with the browser compliance level of each 
method. Then, you could get the compiler to automatically analyze your code 
and issue warnings about what browsers your code works on. Of course, then 
you would need additional annotations to suppress some of those warnings. 
And then there would be another layer to detect when your warning 
suppression annotation is, itself, no longer valid. Something like that is 
probably beyond the scope of Elemental though.

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[Thomas Broyer]

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 11:10:23 PM UTC+2, Ming-Yee Iu wrote:
>
> It would also be nice if Elemental 2 also has an easy way to selectively 
> knock out certain fields/methods in the code generator. I don't know how 
> many times I'll be using code completion and accidentally end up writing 
> something like 
>
>div.setInnerText("click me")
>
> because innerText is available in WebKit when I should have been using
>
>div.setTextContent("click me")
>
> which is cross-platform.
>

You mean that innerText: http://caniuse.com/#feat=innertext and that 
textContent: http://caniuse.com/#feat=textcontent
They look (almost) as "cross platform" as each other (Firefox 45 is ESR).
They're not interchangeable though, although very similar when it comes to 
setting their 
value: https://rocallahan.github.io/innerText-spec/index.html#setting-innertext

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Ray Cromwell' via GWT Contributors]

Elemental2 just generates code from whatever WebIDLs or Typescript
headers you feed it. If you want to knock out certain APIs, just
comment them out in the IDL file.


On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 2:10 PM, Ming-Yee Iu  wrote:
> It would also be nice if Elemental 2 also has an easy way to selectively
> knock out certain fields/methods in the code generator. I don't know how
> many times I'll be using code completion and accidentally end up writing
> something like
>
>div.setInnerText("click me")
>
> because innerText is available in WebKit when I should have been using
>
>div.setTextContent("click me")
>
> which is cross-platform. I would like to be able to easily go in and
> regenerate my own Elemental with innerText (among others) removed so that I
> can't accidentally do that.
>
> There's also the issue of dealing with variants like
> webkitRequestAnimationFrame(), mozRequestAnimationFrame(),
> msRequestAnimationFrame(), and requestAnimationFrame() without having four
> different methods. I guess I can just polyfill stuff like that though.
>
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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[Ming-Yee Iu]

It would also be nice if Elemental 2 also has an easy way to selectively 
knock out certain fields/methods in the code generator. I don't know how 
many times I'll be using code completion and accidentally end up writing 
something like 

   div.setInnerText("click me")

because innerText is available in WebKit when I should have been using

   div.setTextContent("click me")

which is cross-platform. I would like to be able to easily go in and 
regenerate my own Elemental with innerText (among others) removed so that I 
can't accidentally do that.

There's also the issue of dealing with variants like 
webkitRequestAnimationFrame(), mozRequestAnimationFrame(), 
msRequestAnimationFrame(), and requestAnimationFrame() without having four 
different methods. I guess I can just polyfill stuff like that though.

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Ray Cromwell' via GWT Contributors]

I agree with you on Java idiomatic API design, but the first version
won't be so specialized, we will have to hand curate overrides of the
auto-generated APIs, it's not really possible to automate this.


On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Ming-Yee Iu  wrote:
> Is it possible to get some hints about what's cooking for Elemental 2?
>
> Is the code generator still going to be Python or is it going to be
> rewritten in Java? I found modifying the Python code generator when I wanted
> to change Elemental 1 to be annoying.
>
> Is the output going to be a direct remapping of JS APIs to Java or are some
> of the more common APIs going to be massaged to be more Java-like? With
> Elemental 1, I found that the JS APIs were cumbersome to use in Java because
> they were designed for use in JavaScript.  A lot of type casting was
> required to use the APIs, a lot of potential opportunities for compile-time
> type safety were missed, lots of strings used as parameters etc.
>
> e.g.
> CanvasRenderingContext2D ctx =
> (CanvasRenderingContext2D)canvas.getContext("2d");
>
> (I often forget whether it's "2d" or "2D", and that type cast is gross)
>
> e.g.
> div.addEventListener(Events.CLICK, new EventListener() {
>void handleEvent(Event evt) {
>   MouseEvent e = (MouseEvent)evt;
>   ...
>}
> });
>
> (that would work so much better as something like
>
>  EventRemover addEventListener( EventType type,
> EventListener listener )
>
> so that it would be possible to do a
>
> div.addEventListener(Events.CLICK, (MouseEvent e) -> {...});
>
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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[Ming-Yee Iu]

Is it possible to get some hints about what's cooking for Elemental 2?

Is the code generator still going to be Python or is it going to be 
rewritten in Java? I found modifying the Python code generator when I 
wanted to change Elemental 1 to be annoying.

Is the output going to be a direct remapping of JS APIs to Java or are some 
of the more common APIs going to be massaged to be more Java-like? With 
Elemental 1, I found that the JS APIs were cumbersome to use in Java 
because they were designed for use in JavaScript.  A lot of type casting 
was required to use the APIs, a lot of potential opportunities for 
compile-time type safety were missed, lots of strings used as parameters 
etc.

e.g.
CanvasRenderingContext2D ctx = 
(CanvasRenderingContext2D)canvas.getContext("2d");

(I often forget whether it's "2d" or "2D", and that type cast is gross)

e.g.
div.addEventListener(Events.CLICK, new EventListener() {
   void handleEvent(Event evt) {
  MouseEvent e = (MouseEvent)evt;
  ...
   }
});

(that would work so much better as something like 

 EventRemover addEventListener( EventType type, 
EventListener listener )

so that it would be possible to do a 

div.addEventListener(Events.CLICK, (MouseEvent e) -> {...});

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2 and J2CL timeline

[Paul Stockley]

I think once 2.8 is out the door we should definitely pursue setting up 
some projects to tackle the things that won't be in J2CL. This will really 
help a lot to alleviate many peoples fears, especially those with large 
projects that use Widgets, UiBinder etc. 

There has been a lot of vague talk about the future up to this point and to 
be honest, talk is cheap. We need some real action. I think if there are 
smaller independent projects that are maintained in Github and don't need 
to use Gerrit, you will get way more people contributing. The good thing is 
that these new projects could potentially be used with 2.8 and allow people 
to start the migration process sooner rather than later. 

I guess the first steps would be to define what needs to be extracted from 
GWT core and define the goals/non-goals for each project. Our company is 
definitely interested in:

Basic Widget support for evergreen browsers and IE 11 (we only use Widget 
and a few of the base panel classes)
Resource  bundles/ GSS
UiBinder.

We will be wiling to help make these projects a reality.


On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 5:16:36 AM UTC-4, Thomas Broyer wrote:
>
> Sorry, I didn't mean to keep a big "monolithic" project like we have now 
> (I'm +1000 on modularization!), it can very well be a new "project", built 
> separately, released at a different pace, etc.
> My point was that it could be kept under the "GWT Project" umbrella, 
> rather than a "third party" project. It can also be incubated as a 
> third-party *now*, as we don't yet really know what GWT 3 will be, and then 
> brought under the GWT Project umbrella when we know what GWT 3 will and 
> won't be.
> For such things like widgets and UiBinder, I think the "GWT Project" 
> should provide a migration path from GWT 2 to GWT 3.
>
> On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 9:36:34 AM UTC+2, Goktug Gokdogan wrote:
>>
>> I think creating a new project is a good opportunity to start bundling 
>> things out of GWT-SDK as agreed on in the initial roadmap.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Thomas Broyer > > wrote:
>>
>>> No need to create a new project; that can live in GWT proper BUT will 
>>> only be supported by community members (i.e. not Google)
>>>
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>>
>>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2 and J2CL timeline

[Thomas Broyer]

Sorry, I didn't mean to keep a big "monolithic" project like we have now 
(I'm +1000 on modularization!), it can very well be a new "project", built 
separately, released at a different pace, etc.
My point was that it could be kept under the "GWT Project" umbrella, rather 
than a "third party" project. It can also be incubated as a third-party 
*now*, as we don't yet really know what GWT 3 will be, and then brought 
under the GWT Project umbrella when we know what GWT 3 will and won't be.
For such things like widgets and UiBinder, I think the "GWT Project" should 
provide a migration path from GWT 2 to GWT 3.

On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 9:36:34 AM UTC+2, Goktug Gokdogan wrote:
>
> I think creating a new project is a good opportunity to start bundling 
> things out of GWT-SDK as agreed on in the initial roadmap.
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Thomas Broyer  
> wrote:
>
>> No need to create a new project; that can live in GWT proper BUT will 
>> only be supported by community members (i.e. not Google)
>>
>> --
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>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2 and J2CL timeline

['Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors]

I think creating a new project is a good opportunity to start bundling
things out of GWT-SDK as agreed on in the initial roadmap.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Thomas Broyer  wrote:

> No need to create a new project; that can live in GWT proper BUT will only
> be supported by community members (i.e. not Google)
>
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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors]

The prototype will be available soon, we are close but not there yet.

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 11:57 AM, James Northrup 
wrote:

> +1 for hacky prototype to play with.  this is the top search result for
> 'gwt elemental2'  +4 months since last post
>
>
> On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 10:42:23 PM UTC-8, James Nelson wrote:
>>
>> +1 for hacky prototype to play with.
>>
>> Collide was built with hacky pre Elemental1, and it was rescuable,
>> and I may have a use case to upgrade it again to Elemental2 (plus a
>> little other top secret magic).
>>
>> https://github.com/cromwellian/gwt-sandbox was where I got the hacky pre
>> java 8 version.
>> Maybe a quick push and we can start the Elemental2 bake off.  v 0.0.1  :-)
>>
>>> --
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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[James Northrup]

+1 for hacky prototype to play with.  this is the top search result for 
'gwt elemental2'  +4 months since last post 


On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 10:42:23 PM UTC-8, James Nelson wrote:
>
> +1 for hacky prototype to play with.
>
> Collide was built with hacky pre Elemental1, and it was rescuable,
> and I may have a use case to upgrade it again to Elemental2 (plus a little 
> other top secret magic).
>
> https://github.com/cromwellian/gwt-sandbox was where I got the hacky pre 
> java 8 version. 
> Maybe a quick push and we can start the Elemental2 bake off.  v 0.0.1  :-)
>
>>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[James Nelson]

+1 for hacky prototype to play with.

Collide was built with hacky pre Elemental1, and it was rescuable,
and I may have a use case to upgrade it again to Elemental2 (plus a little 
other top secret magic).

https://github.com/cromwellian/gwt-sandbox was where I got the hacky pre 
java 8 version. 
Maybe a quick push and we can start the Elemental2 bake off.  v 0.0.1  :-)

>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[dad]

Hi Ray,

We are keenly interested in this.
How does one get hold of your hacky Elemental2 prototype in order to play
with?

Thanks

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 8:36 PM, 'Ray Cromwell' via GWT Contributors <
google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Another thing to consider is that J2CL was developed as a 'bake off', in
> which multiple prototypes and designs were discussed/looked at (compile
> from Java with JDT, compile from bytecode, compile using Javac APIs,
> writing parser by hand, etc) It would have been a bit premature to release
> any of them as they were all known ahead of time to be throwaways.
>
> I have a hacky Elemental2 prototype (which is not the official one that
> Julien is working on), if you want to take it and play around.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:30 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <
> google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> No worries :)
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Stephen Haberman <
>> stephen.haber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Goktug,
>>>
>>> That's all true, thanks for providing a counter data point. You're
>>> right, the JsInterop design docs/etc. were all out in the open from day 1,
>>> which I thought was pretty exiting.
>>>
>>> I definitely can't take any credit for providing useful feedback, but I
>>> enjoyed seeing the thoughts and process from the community.
>>>
>>> So, apologies for the sweeping statement.
>>>
>>> - Stephen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:58 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 Singular is not a Google project and not being developed internally. It
 is Daniel's personal project and as fas as I know it is already in the open
 source.

 We don't have anything to share for Elemental yet. We are talking with
 other teams, thinking about alternatives etc. Also when we release, it will
 not be part of GWT-SDK so there is going be extra work to move the
 development outside; which doesn't make sense at this stage.

 The big things we recently developed for GWT, JsInterop and
 SuperDevMode and they were all open source from day one.

 On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Stephen Haberman <
 stephen.haber...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>
> I'll take the opportunity to hop on a soapbox, but the "closed
> source/eventually open source" model is a curious trend that I think I've
> only seen in the GWT community (are their other examples?)...
>
> Musing, it probably stems from Google setting the example with GWT
> itself, where historically a lot happened internally before being mirrored
> externally, but it happens a bit for non-Google-GWT projects as well, like
> the repackaging of GPE, which was closed during initial development
> (although the result is great, and I really appreciate it), Singular, 
> which
> is still closed during initial development, now Elemental2. I dunno,
> I find it curious.
>
> E.g. with Singular, it's like it's being developed like the next Apple
> phone; we have to be secret about it, not say anything, so we can have an
> awesome keynote where we surprise the world with how awesome it is.
>
> Granted, I'm sure those keynotes are very fun, but I guess I don't
> understand, wtf, why not just open source things from day 1? IMO the best
> case scenario, and most likely, is that you're going to attract early
> adopters who will a) give you feedback to validate approaches/etc and b)
> give you free work by tracking down bugs and committing patches.
>
> Keeping things closed source "until they're ready", IMO, stifles the
> potential contributor/committer pool that's needed for the long term 
> health
> of an open source project.
>
> I suppose the risk is people writing a 100k LOC production app on a
> pre-1.0 project, and then they bitch about changes...but hopefully lots of
> disclaimers and 0.x release points would help mitigate that...
>
> Anyway, that is my soapbox. Or one of them, I guess. :-P Of course,
> we're all getting this work for free, so everyone is free to do what they
> please, and I will be very excited and thankful for both
> Elemental2/Singular when they are available to us.
>
> So please don't read this as "bah, that is dumb", but just as "gentle
> nudge towards open sourcing sooner, if that's okay, thanks!". :-)
>
> - Stephen
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Rene Hangstrup Møller <
> rhmol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the update.
>> Looking forward to seeing what you have been cooking up.
>> Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>>
>> /Rene
>>
>> Den fredag den 20. november 2015 kl. 11.05.44 UTC+1 skrev Julien
>> Dramaix:

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[James Horsley]

When both Elemental2 and JsInterop are released I think that the community
will start to innovate on this front and new libraries will pop up on
github to address these needs; "if you build it, they will come" and all
that.

I know I'm very much looking forward to Elemental2 + Jsinterop as a
platform to build on.

On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 6:45 AM 'Ray Cromwell' via GWT Contributors <
google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> There could be a separate Json library build with JsInterop. Some of the
> decisions I made in the design of the original Elemental JSON were made
> specifically because of DevMode support and GWT optimization internals.
> Given the unboxing of Double and Boolean, and the elimination of DevMode,
> the library can be much simpler now and still have a JVM implementation to
> be portable.
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:28 PM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <
> google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Elemental2 will be just an auto-generated thin wrapper around the browser
>> APIs. Unlike Elemental1, it will not provide a cross platform JSON
>> implementation.
>>
>> I don't think you need to report compatibility bugs for Elemental1 unless
>> a maintainer steps up and shows interest.
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Erik Kuefler  wrote:
>>
>>> What's the current thinking regarding JSON in Elemental 2? That part has
>>> always been a bit different from the DOM libraries, and I know there was
>>> talk a long time back about splitting it out. I've been using Elemental
>>> JSON extensively in my projects just to have a JSON library that works in
>>> GWT and in JVM, but I've found it to be extremely buggy (mostly in terms of
>>> behavior differences between jvm, optimized gwt, and draft mode gwt). Are
>>> these bugs worth reporting? Is it all being reworked for Elemental 2?
>>>
>>> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 12:36:22 PM UTC-8, Ray Cromwell wrote:

 Another thing to consider is that J2CL was developed as a 'bake off',
 in which multiple prototypes and designs were discussed/looked at (compile
 from Java with JDT, compile from bytecode, compile using Javac APIs,
 writing parser by hand, etc) It would have been a bit premature to release
 any of them as they were all known ahead of time to be throwaways.

 I have a hacky Elemental2 prototype (which is not the official one that
 Julien is working on), if you want to take it and play around.



 On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:30 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT
 Contributors  wrote:

> No worries :)
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Stephen Haberman <
> stephen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Goktug,
>>
>> That's all true, thanks for providing a counter data point. You're
>> right, the JsInterop design docs/etc. were all out in the open from day 
>> 1,
>> which I thought was pretty exiting.
>>
>> I definitely can't take any credit for providing useful feedback, but
>> I enjoyed seeing the thoughts and process from the community.
>>
>> So, apologies for the sweeping statement.
>>
>> - Stephen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:58 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT
>> Contributors 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Singular is not a Google project and not being developed internally.
>>> It is Daniel's personal project and as fas as I know it is already in 
>>> the
>>> open source.
>>>
>>> We don't have anything to share for Elemental yet. We are talking
>>> with other teams, thinking about alternatives etc. Also when we 
>>> release, it
>>> will not be part of GWT-SDK so there is going be extra work to move the
>>> development outside; which doesn't make sense at this stage.
>>>
>>> The big things we recently developed for GWT, JsInterop and
>>> SuperDevMode and they were all open source from day one.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Stephen Haberman <
>>> stephen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 > Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.

 I'll take the opportunity to hop on a soapbox, but the "closed
 source/eventually open source" model is a curious trend that I think 
 I've
 only seen in the GWT community (are their other examples?)...

 Musing, it probably stems from Google setting the example with GWT
 itself, where historically a lot happened internally before being 
 mirrored
 externally, but it happens a bit for non-Google-GWT projects as well, 
 like
 the repackaging of GPE, which was closed during initial development
 (although the result is great, and I really appreciate it), Singular, 
 which
 is still closed during initial 

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors]

Elemental2 will be just an auto-generated thin wrapper around the browser
APIs. Unlike Elemental1, it will not provide a cross platform JSON
implementation.

I don't think you need to report compatibility bugs for Elemental1 unless a
maintainer steps up and shows interest.

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Erik Kuefler  wrote:

> What's the current thinking regarding JSON in Elemental 2? That part has
> always been a bit different from the DOM libraries, and I know there was
> talk a long time back about splitting it out. I've been using Elemental
> JSON extensively in my projects just to have a JSON library that works in
> GWT and in JVM, but I've found it to be extremely buggy (mostly in terms of
> behavior differences between jvm, optimized gwt, and draft mode gwt). Are
> these bugs worth reporting? Is it all being reworked for Elemental 2?
>
> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 12:36:22 PM UTC-8, Ray Cromwell wrote:
>>
>> Another thing to consider is that J2CL was developed as a 'bake off', in
>> which multiple prototypes and designs were discussed/looked at (compile
>> from Java with JDT, compile from bytecode, compile using Javac APIs,
>> writing parser by hand, etc) It would have been a bit premature to release
>> any of them as they were all known ahead of time to be throwaways.
>>
>> I have a hacky Elemental2 prototype (which is not the official one that
>> Julien is working on), if you want to take it and play around.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:30 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> No worries :)
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Stephen Haberman <
>>> stephen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Goktug,

 That's all true, thanks for providing a counter data point. You're
 right, the JsInterop design docs/etc. were all out in the open from day 1,
 which I thought was pretty exiting.

 I definitely can't take any credit for providing useful feedback, but I
 enjoyed seeing the thoughts and process from the community.

 So, apologies for the sweeping statement.

 - Stephen



 On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:58 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT
 Contributors  wrote:

> Singular is not a Google project and not being developed internally.
> It is Daniel's personal project and as fas as I know it is already in the
> open source.
>
> We don't have anything to share for Elemental yet. We are talking with
> other teams, thinking about alternatives etc. Also when we release, it 
> will
> not be part of GWT-SDK so there is going be extra work to move the
> development outside; which doesn't make sense at this stage.
>
> The big things we recently developed for GWT, JsInterop and
> SuperDevMode and they were all open source from day one.
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Stephen Haberman <
> stephen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>>
>> I'll take the opportunity to hop on a soapbox, but the "closed
>> source/eventually open source" model is a curious trend that I think I've
>> only seen in the GWT community (are their other examples?)...
>>
>> Musing, it probably stems from Google setting the example with GWT
>> itself, where historically a lot happened internally before being 
>> mirrored
>> externally, but it happens a bit for non-Google-GWT projects as well, 
>> like
>> the repackaging of GPE, which was closed during initial development
>> (although the result is great, and I really appreciate it), Singular, 
>> which
>> is still closed during initial development, now Elemental2. I dunno,
>> I find it curious.
>>
>> E.g. with Singular, it's like it's being developed like the next
>> Apple phone; we have to be secret about it, not say anything, so we can
>> have an awesome keynote where we surprise the world with how awesome it 
>> is.
>>
>> Granted, I'm sure those keynotes are very fun, but I guess I don't
>> understand, wtf, why not just open source things from day 1? IMO the best
>> case scenario, and most likely, is that you're going to attract early
>> adopters who will a) give you feedback to validate approaches/etc and b)
>> give you free work by tracking down bugs and committing patches.
>>
>> Keeping things closed source "until they're ready", IMO, stifles the
>> potential contributor/committer pool that's needed for the long term 
>> health
>> of an open source project.
>>
>> I suppose the risk is people writing a 100k LOC production app on a
>> pre-1.0 project, and then they bitch about changes...but hopefully lots 
>> of
>> disclaimers and 0.x release points would help mitigate that...
>>
>> Anyway, that is my 

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Ray Cromwell' via GWT Contributors]

There could be a separate Json library build with JsInterop. Some of the
decisions I made in the design of the original Elemental JSON were made
specifically because of DevMode support and GWT optimization internals.
Given the unboxing of Double and Boolean, and the elimination of DevMode,
the library can be much simpler now and still have a JVM implementation to
be portable.

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:28 PM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <
google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Elemental2 will be just an auto-generated thin wrapper around the browser
> APIs. Unlike Elemental1, it will not provide a cross platform JSON
> implementation.
>
> I don't think you need to report compatibility bugs for Elemental1 unless
> a maintainer steps up and shows interest.
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Erik Kuefler  wrote:
>
>> What's the current thinking regarding JSON in Elemental 2? That part has
>> always been a bit different from the DOM libraries, and I know there was
>> talk a long time back about splitting it out. I've been using Elemental
>> JSON extensively in my projects just to have a JSON library that works in
>> GWT and in JVM, but I've found it to be extremely buggy (mostly in terms of
>> behavior differences between jvm, optimized gwt, and draft mode gwt). Are
>> these bugs worth reporting? Is it all being reworked for Elemental 2?
>>
>> On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 12:36:22 PM UTC-8, Ray Cromwell wrote:
>>>
>>> Another thing to consider is that J2CL was developed as a 'bake off', in
>>> which multiple prototypes and designs were discussed/looked at (compile
>>> from Java with JDT, compile from bytecode, compile using Javac APIs,
>>> writing parser by hand, etc) It would have been a bit premature to release
>>> any of them as they were all known ahead of time to be throwaways.
>>>
>>> I have a hacky Elemental2 prototype (which is not the official one that
>>> Julien is working on), if you want to take it and play around.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:30 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 No worries :)

 On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Stephen Haberman <
 stephen@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Goktug,
>
> That's all true, thanks for providing a counter data point. You're
> right, the JsInterop design docs/etc. were all out in the open from day 1,
> which I thought was pretty exiting.
>
> I definitely can't take any credit for providing useful feedback, but
> I enjoyed seeing the thoughts and process from the community.
>
> So, apologies for the sweeping statement.
>
> - Stephen
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:58 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT
> Contributors  wrote:
>
>> Singular is not a Google project and not being developed internally.
>> It is Daniel's personal project and as fas as I know it is already in the
>> open source.
>>
>> We don't have anything to share for Elemental yet. We are talking
>> with other teams, thinking about alternatives etc. Also when we release, 
>> it
>> will not be part of GWT-SDK so there is going be extra work to move the
>> development outside; which doesn't make sense at this stage.
>>
>> The big things we recently developed for GWT, JsInterop and
>> SuperDevMode and they were all open source from day one.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Stephen Haberman <
>> stephen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>>>
>>> I'll take the opportunity to hop on a soapbox, but the "closed
>>> source/eventually open source" model is a curious trend that I think 
>>> I've
>>> only seen in the GWT community (are their other examples?)...
>>>
>>> Musing, it probably stems from Google setting the example with GWT
>>> itself, where historically a lot happened internally before being 
>>> mirrored
>>> externally, but it happens a bit for non-Google-GWT projects as well, 
>>> like
>>> the repackaging of GPE, which was closed during initial development
>>> (although the result is great, and I really appreciate it), Singular, 
>>> which
>>> is still closed during initial development, now Elemental2. I
>>> dunno, I find it curious.
>>>
>>> E.g. with Singular, it's like it's being developed like the next
>>> Apple phone; we have to be secret about it, not say anything, so we can
>>> have an awesome keynote where we surprise the world with how awesome it 
>>> is.
>>>
>>> Granted, I'm sure those keynotes are very fun, but I guess I don't
>>> understand, wtf, why not just open source things from day 1? IMO the 
>>> best
>>> case scenario, and most likely, is that you're going to attract early

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[Erik Kuefler]

What's the current thinking regarding JSON in Elemental 2? That part has 
always been a bit different from the DOM libraries, and I know there was 
talk a long time back about splitting it out. I've been using Elemental 
JSON extensively in my projects just to have a JSON library that works in 
GWT and in JVM, but I've found it to be extremely buggy (mostly in terms of 
behavior differences between jvm, optimized gwt, and draft mode gwt). Are 
these bugs worth reporting? Is it all being reworked for Elemental 2?

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 12:36:22 PM UTC-8, Ray Cromwell wrote:
>
> Another thing to consider is that J2CL was developed as a 'bake off', in 
> which multiple prototypes and designs were discussed/looked at (compile 
> from Java with JDT, compile from bytecode, compile using Javac APIs, 
> writing parser by hand, etc) It would have been a bit premature to release 
> any of them as they were all known ahead of time to be throwaways. 
>
> I have a hacky Elemental2 prototype (which is not the official one that 
> Julien is working on), if you want to take it and play around.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:30 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <
> google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> No worries :)
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Stephen Haberman > > wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Goktug,
>>>
>>> That's all true, thanks for providing a counter data point. You're 
>>> right, the JsInterop design docs/etc. were all out in the open from day 1, 
>>> which I thought was pretty exiting.
>>>
>>> I definitely can't take any credit for providing useful feedback, but I 
>>> enjoyed seeing the thoughts and process from the community.
>>>
>>> So, apologies for the sweeping statement.
>>>
>>> - Stephen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:58 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 Singular is not a Google project and not being developed internally. It 
 is Daniel's personal project and as fas as I know it is already in the 
 open 
 source.

 We don't have anything to share for Elemental yet. We are talking with 
 other teams, thinking about alternatives etc. Also when we release, it 
 will 
 not be part of GWT-SDK so there is going be extra work to move the 
 development outside; which doesn't make sense at this stage.

 The big things we recently developed for GWT, JsInterop and 
 SuperDevMode and they were all open source from day one.

 On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Stephen Haberman <
 stephen@gmail.com > wrote:

> > Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>
> I'll take the opportunity to hop on a soapbox, but the "closed 
> source/eventually open source" model is a curious trend that I think I've 
> only seen in the GWT community (are their other examples?)...
>
> Musing, it probably stems from Google setting the example with GWT 
> itself, where historically a lot happened internally before being 
> mirrored 
> externally, but it happens a bit for non-Google-GWT projects as well, 
> like 
> the repackaging of GPE, which was closed during initial development 
> (although the result is great, and I really appreciate it), Singular, 
> which 
> is still closed during initial development, now Elemental2. I dunno, 
> I find it curious.
>
> E.g. with Singular, it's like it's being developed like the next Apple 
> phone; we have to be secret about it, not say anything, so we can have an 
> awesome keynote where we surprise the world with how awesome it is.
>
> Granted, I'm sure those keynotes are very fun, but I guess I don't 
> understand, wtf, why not just open source things from day 1? IMO the best 
> case scenario, and most likely, is that you're going to attract early 
> adopters who will a) give you feedback to validate approaches/etc and b) 
> give you free work by tracking down bugs and committing patches.
>
> Keeping things closed source "until they're ready", IMO, stifles the 
> potential contributor/committer pool that's needed for the long term 
> health 
> of an open source project.
>
> I suppose the risk is people writing a 100k LOC production app on a 
> pre-1.0 project, and then they bitch about changes...but hopefully lots 
> of 
> disclaimers and 0.x release points would help mitigate that...
>
> Anyway, that is my soapbox. Or one of them, I guess. :-P Of course, 
> we're all getting this work for free, so everyone is free to do what they 
> please, and I will be very excited and thankful for both 
> Elemental2/Singular when they are available to us.
>
> So please don't read this as "bah, that is dumb", but just as "gentle 
> nudge towards open sourcing sooner, if that's okay, thanks!". :-)
>
> - 

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Julien Dramaix' via GWT Contributors]

Yes I'm currently working on Elemental2 and other intersting stuffs around
JsInterop. It's a bit to early to communicate something right now. But you
can expect to have more news in one or two months.

Julien

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:04 PM Goktug Gokdogan  wrote:

> We have been actively working on a JsInterop generator and Elemental 2.0
> in the last month or so.
> We will make a separate Elemental release and yes that will be J2CL ready.
> However I don't expect it to be released before the next quarter. Also
> having other tools that are investigating the same problem and coming with
> its own solutions usually helps us to learn new stuff.
>
> (adding dramaix@, as he is the one who is actively working on this and
> might provide some feedback as well)
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 2:35 AM, Bademus l.  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> Excellent question!
>> Please let me put my 2cents:
>> I'm interested in Chrome Extension API for GWT, it also can be easily
>> generated from Chrome's IDL.
>>
>> On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 10:39:20 AM UTC+1, Rene Hangstrup
>> Møller wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> A year ago I tried to write a tool for generating JsInterop classes from
>>> WebIDL, I abandoned the project because there was no good solution for
>>> method overloading and constructors back then. I know others have attempted
>>> the same.
>>>
>>> It looks like the new JsInterop spec solves those problems, so i was
>>> considering reviving that project, but I don't want to waste the time if
>>> Elemental 2 is going to be released within the next couple of months.
>>>
>>> I guess it should be possible to release it as a separate project that
>>> can be used from GWT 2.8 and the in the far future J2CL.
>>>
>>> Any chance that Elemental 2 will be available shortly or should I build
>>> my own?
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Rene
>>>
>>> --
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>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/9d50d507-f79a-4596-a259-a14213f37875%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[Stephen Haberman]

> Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.

I'll take the opportunity to hop on a soapbox, but the "closed
source/eventually open source" model is a curious trend that I think I've
only seen in the GWT community (are their other examples?)...

Musing, it probably stems from Google setting the example with GWT itself,
where historically a lot happened internally before being mirrored
externally, but it happens a bit for non-Google-GWT projects as well, like
the repackaging of GPE, which was closed during initial development
(although the result is great, and I really appreciate it), Singular, which
is still closed during initial development, now Elemental2. I dunno, I find
it curious.

E.g. with Singular, it's like it's being developed like the next Apple
phone; we have to be secret about it, not say anything, so we can have an
awesome keynote where we surprise the world with how awesome it is.

Granted, I'm sure those keynotes are very fun, but I guess I don't
understand, wtf, why not just open source things from day 1? IMO the best
case scenario, and most likely, is that you're going to attract early
adopters who will a) give you feedback to validate approaches/etc and b)
give you free work by tracking down bugs and committing patches.

Keeping things closed source "until they're ready", IMO, stifles the
potential contributor/committer pool that's needed for the long term health
of an open source project.

I suppose the risk is people writing a 100k LOC production app on a pre-1.0
project, and then they bitch about changes...but hopefully lots of
disclaimers and 0.x release points would help mitigate that...

Anyway, that is my soapbox. Or one of them, I guess. :-P Of course, we're
all getting this work for free, so everyone is free to do what they please,
and I will be very excited and thankful for both Elemental2/Singular when
they are available to us.

So please don't read this as "bah, that is dumb", but just as "gentle nudge
towards open sourcing sooner, if that's okay, thanks!". :-)

- Stephen



On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Rene Hangstrup Møller 
wrote:

> Thanks for the update.
> Looking forward to seeing what you have been cooking up.
> Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>
> /Rene
>
> Den fredag den 20. november 2015 kl. 11.05.44 UTC+1 skrev Julien Dramaix:
>>
>> It's a bit too early to answer to this question with absolute certainty
>> but I don't think I can guarantee the full backward compatibility with the
>> first version of elemental.
>>
>> --
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> 
> .
>
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[Julien Dramaix]

It's a bit too early to answer to this question with absolute certainty but 
I don't think I can guarantee the full backward compatibility with the 
first version of elemental.

On Friday, November 20, 2015 at 10:50:26 AM UTC+1, James Horsley wrote:
>
> Thanks for the update Julien. Do you know if Elemental2 will be at all 
> backwards compatible with Elemental1? I was trying to decide on whether to 
> use the Elemental1 interfaces for something I'm working on.
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 9:32 AM 'Julien Dramaix' via GWT Contributors <
> google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> Yes I'm currently working on Elemental2 and other intersting stuffs 
>> around JsInterop. It's a bit to early to communicate something right now. 
>> But you can expect to have more news in one or two months.
>>
>> Julien
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:04 PM Goktug Gokdogan > > wrote:
>>
>>> We have been actively working on a JsInterop generator and Elemental 2.0 
>>> in the last month or so.
>>> We will make a separate Elemental release and yes that will be J2CL 
>>> ready.
>>> However I don't expect it to be released before the next quarter. Also 
>>> having other tools that are investigating the same problem and coming with 
>>> its own solutions usually helps us to learn new stuff.
>>>
>>> (adding dramaix@, as he is the one who is actively working on this and 
>>> might provide some feedback as well)
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 2:35 AM, Bademus l. >> > wrote:
>>>
 Hello,
 Excellent question! 
 Please let me put my 2cents: 
 I'm interested in Chrome Extension API for GWT, it also can be easily 
 generated from Chrome's IDL.

 On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 10:39:20 AM UTC+1, Rene Hangstrup 
 Møller wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> A year ago I tried to write a tool for generating JsInterop classes 
> from WebIDL, I abandoned the project because there was no good solution 
> for 
> method overloading and constructors back then. I know others have 
> attempted 
> the same.
>
> It looks like the new JsInterop spec solves those problems, so i was 
> considering reviving that project, but I don't want to waste the time if 
> Elemental 2 is going to be released within the next couple of months.
>
> I guess it should be possible to release it as a separate project that 
> can be used from GWT 2.8 and the in the far future J2CL.
>
> Any chance that Elemental 2 will be available shortly or should I 
> build my own?
>
> Best regards
> Rene
>
> -- 
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>>>
>>> -- 
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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[Rene Hangstrup Møller]

Thanks for the update.
Looking forward to seeing what you have been cooking up.
Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.

/Rene

Den fredag den 20. november 2015 kl. 11.05.44 UTC+1 skrev Julien Dramaix:
>
> It's a bit too early to answer to this question with absolute certainty 
> but I don't think I can guarantee the full backward compatibility with the 
> first version of elemental.
>
>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors]

No worries :)

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Stephen Haberman <
stephen.haber...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Goktug,
>
> That's all true, thanks for providing a counter data point. You're right,
> the JsInterop design docs/etc. were all out in the open from day 1, which I
> thought was pretty exiting.
>
> I definitely can't take any credit for providing useful feedback, but I
> enjoyed seeing the thoughts and process from the community.
>
> So, apologies for the sweeping statement.
>
> - Stephen
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:58 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <
> google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Singular is not a Google project and not being developed internally. It
>> is Daniel's personal project and as fas as I know it is already in the open
>> source.
>>
>> We don't have anything to share for Elemental yet. We are talking with
>> other teams, thinking about alternatives etc. Also when we release, it will
>> not be part of GWT-SDK so there is going be extra work to move the
>> development outside; which doesn't make sense at this stage.
>>
>> The big things we recently developed for GWT, JsInterop and SuperDevMode
>> and they were all open source from day one.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Stephen Haberman <
>> stephen.haber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>>>
>>> I'll take the opportunity to hop on a soapbox, but the "closed
>>> source/eventually open source" model is a curious trend that I think I've
>>> only seen in the GWT community (are their other examples?)...
>>>
>>> Musing, it probably stems from Google setting the example with GWT
>>> itself, where historically a lot happened internally before being mirrored
>>> externally, but it happens a bit for non-Google-GWT projects as well, like
>>> the repackaging of GPE, which was closed during initial development
>>> (although the result is great, and I really appreciate it), Singular, which
>>> is still closed during initial development, now Elemental2. I dunno, I
>>> find it curious.
>>>
>>> E.g. with Singular, it's like it's being developed like the next Apple
>>> phone; we have to be secret about it, not say anything, so we can have an
>>> awesome keynote where we surprise the world with how awesome it is.
>>>
>>> Granted, I'm sure those keynotes are very fun, but I guess I don't
>>> understand, wtf, why not just open source things from day 1? IMO the best
>>> case scenario, and most likely, is that you're going to attract early
>>> adopters who will a) give you feedback to validate approaches/etc and b)
>>> give you free work by tracking down bugs and committing patches.
>>>
>>> Keeping things closed source "until they're ready", IMO, stifles the
>>> potential contributor/committer pool that's needed for the long term health
>>> of an open source project.
>>>
>>> I suppose the risk is people writing a 100k LOC production app on a
>>> pre-1.0 project, and then they bitch about changes...but hopefully lots of
>>> disclaimers and 0.x release points would help mitigate that...
>>>
>>> Anyway, that is my soapbox. Or one of them, I guess. :-P Of course,
>>> we're all getting this work for free, so everyone is free to do what they
>>> please, and I will be very excited and thankful for both
>>> Elemental2/Singular when they are available to us.
>>>
>>> So please don't read this as "bah, that is dumb", but just as "gentle
>>> nudge towards open sourcing sooner, if that's okay, thanks!". :-)
>>>
>>> - Stephen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Rene Hangstrup Møller <
>>> rhmol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Thanks for the update.
 Looking forward to seeing what you have been cooking up.
 Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.

 /Rene

 Den fredag den 20. november 2015 kl. 11.05.44 UTC+1 skrev Julien
 Dramaix:
>
> It's a bit too early to answer to this question with absolute
> certainty but I don't think I can guarantee the full backward 
> compatibility
> with the first version of elemental.
>
> --
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 .

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>>>
>>> --
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>>> an email to 

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors]

Singular is not a Google project and not being developed internally. It is
Daniel's personal project and as fas as I know it is already in the open
source.

We don't have anything to share for Elemental yet. We are talking with
other teams, thinking about alternatives etc. Also when we release, it will
not be part of GWT-SDK so there is going be extra work to move the
development outside; which doesn't make sense at this stage.

The big things we recently developed for GWT, JsInterop and SuperDevMode
and they were all open source from day one.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Stephen Haberman <
stephen.haber...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>
> I'll take the opportunity to hop on a soapbox, but the "closed
> source/eventually open source" model is a curious trend that I think I've
> only seen in the GWT community (are their other examples?)...
>
> Musing, it probably stems from Google setting the example with GWT
> itself, where historically a lot happened internally before being mirrored
> externally, but it happens a bit for non-Google-GWT projects as well, like
> the repackaging of GPE, which was closed during initial development
> (although the result is great, and I really appreciate it), Singular, which
> is still closed during initial development, now Elemental2. I dunno, I
> find it curious.
>
> E.g. with Singular, it's like it's being developed like the next Apple
> phone; we have to be secret about it, not say anything, so we can have an
> awesome keynote where we surprise the world with how awesome it is.
>
> Granted, I'm sure those keynotes are very fun, but I guess I don't
> understand, wtf, why not just open source things from day 1? IMO the best
> case scenario, and most likely, is that you're going to attract early
> adopters who will a) give you feedback to validate approaches/etc and b)
> give you free work by tracking down bugs and committing patches.
>
> Keeping things closed source "until they're ready", IMO, stifles the
> potential contributor/committer pool that's needed for the long term health
> of an open source project.
>
> I suppose the risk is people writing a 100k LOC production app on a
> pre-1.0 project, and then they bitch about changes...but hopefully lots of
> disclaimers and 0.x release points would help mitigate that...
>
> Anyway, that is my soapbox. Or one of them, I guess. :-P Of course, we're
> all getting this work for free, so everyone is free to do what they please,
> and I will be very excited and thankful for both Elemental2/Singular when
> they are available to us.
>
> So please don't read this as "bah, that is dumb", but just as "gentle
> nudge towards open sourcing sooner, if that's okay, thanks!". :-)
>
> - Stephen
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Rene Hangstrup Møller  > wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the update.
>> Looking forward to seeing what you have been cooking up.
>> Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>>
>> /Rene
>>
>> Den fredag den 20. november 2015 kl. 11.05.44 UTC+1 skrev Julien Dramaix:
>>>
>>> It's a bit too early to answer to this question with absolute certainty
>>> but I don't think I can guarantee the full backward compatibility with the
>>> first version of elemental.
>>>
>>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "GWT Contributors" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to google-web-toolkit-contributors+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/98a1cb61-aafa-4c80-9c0d-f1a1d4e6bd1d%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>>
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
> --
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> 
> .
>
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>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

[Stephen Haberman]

Hi Goktug,

That's all true, thanks for providing a counter data point. You're right,
the JsInterop design docs/etc. were all out in the open from day 1, which I
thought was pretty exiting.

I definitely can't take any credit for providing useful feedback, but I
enjoyed seeing the thoughts and process from the community.

So, apologies for the sweeping statement.

- Stephen



On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:58 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <
google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Singular is not a Google project and not being developed internally. It is
> Daniel's personal project and as fas as I know it is already in the open
> source.
>
> We don't have anything to share for Elemental yet. We are talking with
> other teams, thinking about alternatives etc. Also when we release, it will
> not be part of GWT-SDK so there is going be extra work to move the
> development outside; which doesn't make sense at this stage.
>
> The big things we recently developed for GWT, JsInterop and SuperDevMode
> and they were all open source from day one.
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Stephen Haberman <
> stephen.haber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>>
>> I'll take the opportunity to hop on a soapbox, but the "closed
>> source/eventually open source" model is a curious trend that I think I've
>> only seen in the GWT community (are their other examples?)...
>>
>> Musing, it probably stems from Google setting the example with GWT
>> itself, where historically a lot happened internally before being mirrored
>> externally, but it happens a bit for non-Google-GWT projects as well, like
>> the repackaging of GPE, which was closed during initial development
>> (although the result is great, and I really appreciate it), Singular, which
>> is still closed during initial development, now Elemental2. I dunno, I
>> find it curious.
>>
>> E.g. with Singular, it's like it's being developed like the next Apple
>> phone; we have to be secret about it, not say anything, so we can have an
>> awesome keynote where we surprise the world with how awesome it is.
>>
>> Granted, I'm sure those keynotes are very fun, but I guess I don't
>> understand, wtf, why not just open source things from day 1? IMO the best
>> case scenario, and most likely, is that you're going to attract early
>> adopters who will a) give you feedback to validate approaches/etc and b)
>> give you free work by tracking down bugs and committing patches.
>>
>> Keeping things closed source "until they're ready", IMO, stifles the
>> potential contributor/committer pool that's needed for the long term health
>> of an open source project.
>>
>> I suppose the risk is people writing a 100k LOC production app on a
>> pre-1.0 project, and then they bitch about changes...but hopefully lots of
>> disclaimers and 0.x release points would help mitigate that...
>>
>> Anyway, that is my soapbox. Or one of them, I guess. :-P Of course, we're
>> all getting this work for free, so everyone is free to do what they please,
>> and I will be very excited and thankful for both Elemental2/Singular when
>> they are available to us.
>>
>> So please don't read this as "bah, that is dumb", but just as "gentle
>> nudge towards open sourcing sooner, if that's okay, thanks!". :-)
>>
>> - Stephen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Rene Hangstrup Møller <
>> rhmol...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the update.
>>> Looking forward to seeing what you have been cooking up.
>>> Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>>>
>>> /Rene
>>>
>>> Den fredag den 20. november 2015 kl. 11.05.44 UTC+1 skrev Julien Dramaix:

 It's a bit too early to answer to this question with absolute certainty
 but I don't think I can guarantee the full backward compatibility with the
 first version of elemental.

 --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "GWT Contributors" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to google-web-toolkit-contributors+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>>> .
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/98a1cb61-aafa-4c80-9c0d-f1a1d4e6bd1d%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>> --
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>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> 

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Ray Cromwell' via GWT Contributors]

Another thing to consider is that J2CL was developed as a 'bake off', in
which multiple prototypes and designs were discussed/looked at (compile
from Java with JDT, compile from bytecode, compile using Javac APIs,
writing parser by hand, etc) It would have been a bit premature to release
any of them as they were all known ahead of time to be throwaways.

I have a hacky Elemental2 prototype (which is not the official one that
Julien is working on), if you want to take it and play around.



On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:30 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <
google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> No worries :)
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Stephen Haberman <
> stephen.haber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Goktug,
>>
>> That's all true, thanks for providing a counter data point. You're right,
>> the JsInterop design docs/etc. were all out in the open from day 1, which I
>> thought was pretty exiting.
>>
>> I definitely can't take any credit for providing useful feedback, but I
>> enjoyed seeing the thoughts and process from the community.
>>
>> So, apologies for the sweeping statement.
>>
>> - Stephen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:58 AM, 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Singular is not a Google project and not being developed internally. It
>>> is Daniel's personal project and as fas as I know it is already in the open
>>> source.
>>>
>>> We don't have anything to share for Elemental yet. We are talking with
>>> other teams, thinking about alternatives etc. Also when we release, it will
>>> not be part of GWT-SDK so there is going be extra work to move the
>>> development outside; which doesn't make sense at this stage.
>>>
>>> The big things we recently developed for GWT, JsInterop and SuperDevMode
>>> and they were all open source from day one.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:34 AM, Stephen Haberman <
>>> stephen.haber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 > Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.

 I'll take the opportunity to hop on a soapbox, but the "closed
 source/eventually open source" model is a curious trend that I think I've
 only seen in the GWT community (are their other examples?)...

 Musing, it probably stems from Google setting the example with GWT
 itself, where historically a lot happened internally before being mirrored
 externally, but it happens a bit for non-Google-GWT projects as well, like
 the repackaging of GPE, which was closed during initial development
 (although the result is great, and I really appreciate it), Singular, which
 is still closed during initial development, now Elemental2. I dunno, I
 find it curious.

 E.g. with Singular, it's like it's being developed like the next Apple
 phone; we have to be secret about it, not say anything, so we can have an
 awesome keynote where we surprise the world with how awesome it is.

 Granted, I'm sure those keynotes are very fun, but I guess I don't
 understand, wtf, why not just open source things from day 1? IMO the best
 case scenario, and most likely, is that you're going to attract early
 adopters who will a) give you feedback to validate approaches/etc and b)
 give you free work by tracking down bugs and committing patches.

 Keeping things closed source "until they're ready", IMO, stifles the
 potential contributor/committer pool that's needed for the long term health
 of an open source project.

 I suppose the risk is people writing a 100k LOC production app on a
 pre-1.0 project, and then they bitch about changes...but hopefully lots of
 disclaimers and 0.x release points would help mitigate that...

 Anyway, that is my soapbox. Or one of them, I guess. :-P Of course,
 we're all getting this work for free, so everyone is free to do what they
 please, and I will be very excited and thankful for both
 Elemental2/Singular when they are available to us.

 So please don't read this as "bah, that is dumb", but just as "gentle
 nudge towards open sourcing sooner, if that's okay, thanks!". :-)

 - Stephen



 On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 6:14 AM, Rene Hangstrup Møller <
 rhmol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the update.
> Looking forward to seeing what you have been cooking up.
> Meanwhile I will revive my own generator project.
>
> /Rene
>
> Den fredag den 20. november 2015 kl. 11.05.44 UTC+1 skrev Julien
> Dramaix:
>>
>> It's a bit too early to answer to this question with absolute
>> certainty but I don't think I can guarantee the full backward 
>> compatibility
>> with the first version of elemental.
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "GWT Contributors" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop 

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: Elemental 2?

['Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors]

We have been actively working on a JsInterop generator and Elemental 2.0 in
the last month or so.
We will make a separate Elemental release and yes that will be J2CL ready.
However I don't expect it to be released before the next quarter. Also
having other tools that are investigating the same problem and coming with
its own solutions usually helps us to learn new stuff.

(adding dramaix@, as he is the one who is actively working on this and
might provide some feedback as well)

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 2:35 AM, Bademus l.  wrote:

> Hello,
> Excellent question!
> Please let me put my 2cents:
> I'm interested in Chrome Extension API for GWT, it also can be easily
> generated from Chrome's IDL.
>
> On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 10:39:20 AM UTC+1, Rene Hangstrup Møller
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> A year ago I tried to write a tool for generating JsInterop classes from
>> WebIDL, I abandoned the project because there was no good solution for
>> method overloading and constructors back then. I know others have attempted
>> the same.
>>
>> It looks like the new JsInterop spec solves those problems, so i was
>> considering reviving that project, but I don't want to waste the time if
>> Elemental 2 is going to be released within the next couple of months.
>>
>> I guess it should be possible to release it as a separate project that
>> can be used from GWT 2.8 and the in the far future J2CL.
>>
>> Any chance that Elemental 2 will be available shortly or should I build
>> my own?
>>
>> Best regards
>> Rene
>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "GWT Contributors" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to google-web-toolkit-contributors+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/9d50d507-f79a-4596-a259-a14213f37875%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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