Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow

2004-12-13 Thread Joao Victor
Hello folks,

I can't resist commenting about the oh-so-popular-with-gtk "give me
some numbers" comentary. Every once in a while there's somebody saying
GTK is slow, and there's another someone asking for numbers... i think
we should try to figure a pattern here. If 1 person was saying GTK is
slow, that would be fine. But it's not 1 person... lots of people have
that same opinion.

But we don't have to compare it with Windows. Let's compare it with
KDE. Let's take, for example, a very simple application, such as
Gedit. Forget huge applications such as Mozilla, let's just focus on a
simple one.

Now, boot your machine on KDE, and fire up Kedit. Then reboot on GTK,
and fire up Gedit. Unless you've got very modern, you will see Kedit
fires up much much faster than Gedit.

Depending on the hardware you're using, even simpler apps, such as
gnome-calculator, are slow to startup.

Just my 2 cents,
J.V.
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gtk for sql applications

2004-12-13 Thread Piotr Legiecki
Hi
I'v just done a quick search for grid like widget (or spreadsheet) which 
could easly arrange rows and columns of data taken from SQL querry. 
Well, I hove found nothing ;-(

Is there really no such a widget? So how you arrange datas from SQL 
database?

Regards
Piotr L.
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Re: gtk-list Digest, Vol 8, Issue 17

2004-12-13 Thread hongky gump
in my opinion, i feel the responsiveness of GTK+ apps too.

i have some projects done with MFC in WIN32, later, i rebulid it with 
GTK+ in WIN32. But i found the case, it's slow and application main frame 
twinkling.
and if you installed the gaim, you can push the scrolled window, it's so delay 
and slow.

i have not designed GUI programs in Linux, so maybe it's some problem in WIN32.

thanks
 

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 11:50 PM
Subject: gtk-list Digest, Vol 8, Issue 17


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> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>1. Re: Source compiling for gtk+ 2.2 and 2.4 (Keith Sharp)
>2. timer (Aaron Yang)
>3. Re: timer (H McCurdy)
>4. Building errors continuing... ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
>5. Why gtk+ application are so slow (Victor Nazarov)
>6. Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow (Sven Neumann)
>7. Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow (Thomas Coppi)
>8. Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow  (Paul Davis)
>9. Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow (Victor Nazarov)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 17:40:42 +
> From: Keith Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Source compiling for gtk+ 2.2 and 2.4
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> 
> On Sat, 2004-12-11 at 14:42 +0100, antongiulio wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > in my little app I have used 'gtkcombobox' widget. In a system with gtk+ 
> > 2.4.x installed, it works, but in system with gtk+ =< 2.2 I got errors on 
> > compiling.
> > 
> > Since v2.4 GtkComboBox has replaced 'deprecated' GtkOptionMenu. Is there a 
> > way to compile both version of gtk+ library?
> > 
> > I thought to use:
> > 
> > #ifdef any_macro_for_gtk_version
> > gtkcombobox
> > #else
> > gtkoptionmenu
> > #endif
> > 
> > Could be it good? Eventually, what is right macro to use?
> 
> http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/2.0/gtk/gtk-Feature-Test-Macros.html
> 
> Keith.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 16:35:17 -0800 (PST)
> From: Aaron Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: timer
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> hi everyone,
> 
>   if I created a button that waits for the user to
> click, is it possible to have a timer that can
> constantly send "clicks" to the button without the
> user  pressing the mouse?
>   if this is possible, can anyone show me how?
> 
> thanks
> 
> regards,
> aaron yang
> 
> 
> 
> __ 
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> 
> --
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 19:36:51 -0800 (PST)
> From: H McCurdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: timer
> To: Aaron Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> I don't know how to do that.
> 
> But why don't you just use the Alarm Clock signal and
> have its handler call the same function(s) that the
> button's click event handler calls?
> 
> 
> --- Aaron Yang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > hi everyone,
> > 
> >   if I created a button that waits for the user to
> > click, is it possible to have a timer that can
> > constantly send "clicks" to the button without the
> > user  pressing the mouse?
> >   if this is possible, can anyone show me how?
> > 
> > thanks
> > 
> > regards,
> > aaron yang
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > __ 
> > Do you Yahoo!? 
> > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage
> > less. 
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
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> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ 
> Do you Yahoo!? 
> Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. 
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 05:53:08 +0200
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Building errors continuing...
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7"
> 
> >Greetings,
> > I got a Tarball of GTK+-2.4.9 and I have the following problem compiling 
> > it: While ./configure returns with no errors, 'make' at the enc >returns 

Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow

2004-12-13 Thread Joao Victor
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:51:16 -0500, Paul Davis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> i must be ultra modern, then. gedit fires up slightly faster than
> kedit in all of 10 tests, including 5 done without flushing the buffer
> cache and 5 where the buffer cache was flushed every time.

Could you please tell us you hardware config?

I'm not home now, but i will do this test when i get home.

Thank you,
J.V.
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Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow

2004-12-13 Thread Paul Davis
>On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:51:16 -0500, Paul Davis
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> i must be ultra modern, then. gedit fires up slightly faster than
>> kedit in all of 10 tests, including 5 done without flushing the buffer
>> cache and 5 where the buffer cache was flushed every time.
>
>Could you please tell us you hardware config?

P4, 2.8GHz, IDE 7200rpm drive, 2.4.26+lowlat kernel.

results are similar on a dual PII-400, all SCSI-3 10K drives, same
kernel.

my point was not to prove or disprove anything, merely to illustrate
that these anecdotal recountings of what is or isn't fast don't do
anything useful. they simply point out possible problems or benefits
of a particular machine+user configuration. whether the "runtime
design of GTK" has deep problems isn't covered by such "tests".

--p
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Re: gtk for sql applications

2004-12-13 Thread Piotr Legiecki
UÅytkownik Tim MÃller napisaÅ:
On Monday 13 December 2004 13:38, Piotr Legiecki wrote:

I'v just done a quick search for grid like widget (or spreadsheet) which
could easly arrange rows and columns of data taken from SQL querry.
Well, I hove found nothing ;-(
Is there really no such a widget? So how you arrange datas from SQL
database?

There's libgnomedb and friends, which have several gnome library dependencies 
though. Check out http://www.gnome-db.org/  for details.

Cheers
 -Tim
Thanx, but I know about gnomedb. I don't want to be gnome dependant. So 
my question is still valid.

I wonder why nobody has written such a usefull wigdet.
Piotr L.
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Re: gtk for sql applications

2004-12-13 Thread Jean Bréfort
Le lundi 13 dÃcembre 2004 Ã 10:29 -0500, Tristan Van Berkom a Ãcrit :
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:28:22 +0100, Piotr Legiecki
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [...]
> > Thanx, but I know about gnomedb. I don't want to be gnome dependant. So
> > my question is still valid.
> > 
> > I wonder why nobody has written such a usefull wigdet.
> 
> Have you looked at gtkextra.sf.net ?
> (I dont know if its being maintained or not... or if it has the 
> widget you are looking for, I seem to remember it had 
> a spreadsheet widget, hmm I might be wrong)

GtkExtra has some useful widgets, but it has not been ported to Gtk
+-2.x. But it is certainly possible to implement such a thing using the
GtkListView widget.

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Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow

2004-12-13 Thread Joao Victor
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 09:14:35 -0500, Paul Davis
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:51:16 -0500, Paul Davis
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> i must be ultra modern, then. gedit fires up slightly faster than
> >> kedit in all of 10 tests, including 5 done without flushing the buffer
> >> cache and 5 where the buffer cache was flushed every time.
> >
> >Could you please tell us you hardware config?
> 
> P4, 2.8GHz, IDE 7200rpm drive, 2.4.26+lowlat kernel.

Dude... talk about bleeding edge hardware! :P

I've got a much average computer: 
AthlonXP2000+ 1.7Ghz 256RAM 72000rpm drive.

I'm pretty sure Gedit opens really fast on your PC... but you gotta
think about we poor users who just want to take small note on gedit :P
(and my hardware is not that bad at all... don't even know if i could
call it "average"... and still i find Gedit slow).

Cheers,
J.V.
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Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow

2004-12-13 Thread Paul Davis
>> P4, 2.8GHz, IDE 7200rpm drive, 2.4.26+lowlat kernel.
>
>Dude... talk about bleeding edge hardware! :P
>
>I've got a much average computer: 
>AthlonXP2000+ 1.7Ghz 256RAM 72000rpm drive.
>
>I'm pretty sure Gedit opens really fast on your PC... but you gotta
>think about we poor users who just want to take small note on gedit :P

did you notice the other system i mentioned? a PII 400MHz system
... that makes your athlon look like a cheetah on steroids! :) even if
it is dual CPU machine ...

--p

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Re: gtk for sql applications

2004-12-13 Thread Tristan Van Berkom
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 15:28:22 +0100, Piotr Legiecki
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> Thanx, but I know about gnomedb. I don't want to be gnome dependant. So
> my question is still valid.
> 
> I wonder why nobody has written such a usefull wigdet.

Have you looked at gtkextra.sf.net ?
(I dont know if its being maintained or not... or if it has the 
widget you are looking for, I seem to remember it had 
a spreadsheet widget, hmm I might be wrong)

Cheers,
 -Tristan
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Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow

2004-12-13 Thread Owen Taylor
On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 18:50 +0300, Victor Nazarov wrote:
> Sven Neumann wrote:
> 
> >Hi,
> >
> >Victor Nazarov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> >  
> >
> >Can you give some numbers please? I don't see any noticeable delay
> >when starting a GTK+ application. So I suspect that something is wrong
> >with your setup. There are several things that could be wrong. Your
> >font cache could be missing or broken, you might have an extended
> >input device configured which isn't available (this causes a long
> >timeout due to a bug in X11).
> >
> >  
> >
> I have only ps/2 keyboard and usb mouse. Machine is Pentium III 
> Copermine 533 MHz with 384 MB RAM runing Linux kernel v 2.4.26...
> 
> >I don't believe that this would gain any significant (noticeable)
> >improvement. But I am willing to change my mind if you can come up
> >with some serious profiling data for realworld applications that shows
> >that GObject signal marshalling is a major bottleneck.
> >
> >  
> >
> I havn't said that GObject signal marshalling is a major bottleneck. 
> I've said about overal run-time design of gtk...
> I have the following manual mesurments, wich are very inaccurate...
> It's near 3 seconds betwean clicking on gnome-terminal launcher and the 
> appearance of the window...
> It's near 5 second to start mozilla-thunderbird...
> Easy-tag (gtk1.2 application) starts very quickly --- not noticable...

Well, thunderbird isn't *really* a GTK+ app (though it uses it
internally) - it doesn't really use many GTK+ signals for one
thing.

Seems like more  apples-to-apples comparison would be to try a small
GTK+-2.x app like, say, gtk-demo which ships with GTK+.

Try 'fc-cache -f' as root on your system, have stale font caches
is a common cause of startup slowness. 

Regards,
Owen



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Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow

2004-12-13 Thread Joao Victor
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:08:54 -0500, Owen Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Try 'fc-cache -f' as root on your system, have stale font caches
> is a common cause of startup slowness.

Someone recently found out there's an issue with Pango that makes
rendering slower when using non-english languages, or something
similar... i wish that was fixed :/ Haven't seen any news about that
lately.

Anyways, is there anyway i can check out if my system is not already
doing this 'fc-cache' trick?

Thanks,
J.V.
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Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow

2004-12-13 Thread Owen Taylor
On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 17:03 +, Joao Victor wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:08:54 -0500, Owen Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > Try 'fc-cache -f' as root on your system, have stale font caches
> > is a common cause of startup slowness.
> 
> Someone recently found out there's an issue with Pango that makes
> rendering slower when using non-english languages, or something
> similar... i wish that was fixed :/ Haven't seen any news about that
> lately.

Until someone mentions it to me (I'm the Pango maintainer), I'd suggest
you don't worry about it. 

Pango is slower for complex script (because they are complex), but
Portuguese (just guessing from your name) is just written and Latin and
should be as fast as English.

> Anyways, is there anyway i can check out if my system is not already
> doing this 'fc-cache' trick?

Not really, no. Just try it.

Regards,
Owen



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problem with arm environment

2004-12-13 Thread Jin-young Jung





  
  

  Hi, gtk users & developers..
  I love  an open source project includes gtk.
   
  I'm drawing GUI by GTK+ in embedded system like a PDA.
  This system is based Arm9 processor.
   
  I was successfully compile GTK+ libraries and dependency 
  libraries.
  And, maked test programs with GTK+ libraries that range widget, rgb 
  data draw, helloworld.
  It was worked well print helloworld button press message on tty, exit 
  procedure except widget figure.
  Rgb data draw on GtkDrawingArea by gdk_draw_rgb_image() is well 
  viewing.
  But, button, window title bar, range widgets is all white.
   
  Help me please.
  And, thanks for your interest.
   
  Regards,
  Jinyo
   
  http://211.192.209.111/~bassjin/rgbdraw_test.c
  http://211.192.209.111/~bassjin/helloworld.c


-



  
	
		
		  
		
		  
		
		
		   
		
		  
			  

	
	  
		  
			

  
   
  
	  
		
		 
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		  싸이월드 페이퍼까지 찾아준다!
		  
		 
	  
	  
		 
	  
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Re: gtk for sql applications

2004-12-13 Thread Diego Zuccato
Piotr Legiecki wrote:

> Is there really no such a widget? So how you arrange datas from SQL
> database?
Since I didn't like too much gnome-db, I wrote some "more-or-less"
wrapper functions around PostgreSQL calls. And since I needed it, I
placed a default callback to populate a GtkListStore from a query
(GtkTreeStore is under planning... still no "good" way to describe the
tree).
If you (or somebody else) are interested, I can put it online
somewhere... It's still pre-alpha, with very pood docs (just my
comments), but could be useful...

BYtE,
 Diego.
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Problems printing 64-bit integers i glib 2.4.8

2004-12-13 Thread Egon Andersen
Hi,
I've experienced problems with g_strdup_printf() in glib 2.4.8 when I 
try to print 64-bit integers on Windows.

I have the following line in my code:
intmax_t se_nr; /* ISO-C99 */
...
se_nr = ... /* e.g. 12345678 */
...
string = g_strdup_printf("%08"PRIdMAX"admin", se_nr);
string is assigend NULL and the error from perror(NULL) says:
"Invalid argument"
This has been working correct in previous releases, so what has happened 
in the new release?
I this an error in glib 2.4.8 or maybe in the prebuild package?

Additional info:
I use the prebuild Gtk+/Win32 Runtime Environment Installer 2.4.14-rc1
from http://gladewin32.sourceforge.net/
Best regards
Egon Andersen
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Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow

2004-12-13 Thread Paul Davis
>But we don't have to compare it with Windows. Let's compare it with
>KDE. Let's take, for example, a very simple application, such as
>Gedit. Forget huge applications such as Mozilla, let's just focus on a
>simple one.
>
>Now, boot your machine on KDE, and fire up Kedit. Then reboot on GTK,
>and fire up Gedit. Unless you've got very modern, you will see Kedit
>fires up much much faster than Gedit.

i must be ultra modern, then. gedit fires up slightly faster than
kedit in all of 10 tests, including 5 done without flushing the buffer
cache and 5 where the buffer cache was flushed every time.

i guess fedora core 1 is ahead of its time :)

oh, did i mention that some part of the machinery that kedit started
running also crashed, and that appears to require or at least look for
OpenGL?

--p
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Glib 2.4.8 doesn't seem to include symbols needed by Pango

2004-12-13 Thread William Lahti
I've found a lot of posts about not being able to compile pango
because of undefined symbols from glib which people continually say is
because of an old version. I had no old version and installed Glib
2.4.8 and it had that problem. nm showed no signs of the culprit
symbols in libglib-2.0.so. Then, I installed 2.4.7, and the resulting
libglib-2.0.so DID have the symbols.

So perhaps the 2.4.8 on the gtk.org site is bad? (thats where I got it from).

Please CC me replies as I'm not on the list
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Re: Why gtk+ application are so slow

2004-12-13 Thread Sven Neumann
Hi,

Joao Victor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> But we don't have to compare it with Windows. Let's compare it with
> KDE. Let's take, for example, a very simple application, such as
> Gedit. Forget huge applications such as Mozilla, let's just focus on a
> simple one.

GEdit isn't a very simple application, it is a GNOME application and
it might turn out that what's slow on your system is not GTK+ but some
parts of the GNOME framework.

Anyway, whenever you want to optimize things, there is only one way of
doing it and that is to carefully perform benchmarks and to profile
the application in order to find out where exactly time is being
spent. Without such information any discussion on what to optimize and
how is a complete waste of time.


Sven
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Re: gtk for sql applications

2004-12-13 Thread Tim Müller
On Monday 13 December 2004 13:38, Piotr Legiecki wrote:

> I'v just done a quick search for grid like widget (or spreadsheet) which
> could easly arrange rows and columns of data taken from SQL querry.
> Well, I hove found nothing ;-(
>
> Is there really no such a widget? So how you arrange datas from SQL
> database?

There's libgnomedb and friends, which have several gnome library dependencies 
though. Check out http://www.gnome-db.org/  for details.

Cheers
 -Tim
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display

2004-12-13 Thread Aaron Yang
hi everyone,
 
as gtk is event driven, does anyone know how i can create a program that can send "clicked" signals on its own without user input?
 
e.g.
 
void push_item( GtkWidget *widget,    gpointer   data ){  static int count = 1;  char buff[20];  sprintf (buff, "Item %d", count++);  gtk_statusbar_push (GTK_STATUSBAR (status_bar), GPOINTER_TO_INT (data),   buff);  return;}int main (int argc, char *argv[]){...    context_id = gtk_statusbar_get_context_id(  GTK_STATUSBAR (status_bar), "Statusbar example");    button = gtk_button_new_with_label ("push item");    g_signal_connect (G_OBJECT (button),
 "clicked",  G_CALLBACK (push_item), GINT_TO_POINTER (context_id));    gtk_box_pack_start (GTK_BOX (vbox), button, TRUE, TRUE, 2);    gtk_widget_show (button); gtk_widget_show (window);    gtk_main ();    return 0;}push_item is a function that displays item %d, which increases each time "clicked" signal is sent from the main function.  so how do i code this so that the user need not click the mouse, but a "clicked" signal is sent?
thanks
 
aaron
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Re: gtk for sql applications

2004-12-13 Thread Scott Dattalo
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004, Jean Bréfort wrote:
Le lundi 13 décembre 2004 à 10:29 -0500, Tristan Van Berkom a écrit :

Have you looked at gtkextra.sf.net ?

GtkExtra has some useful widgets, but it has not been ported to Gtk
+-2.x. But it is certainly possible to implement such a thing using the
GtkListView widget.
Actually GtkExtra has been ported to GTK+-2.x. Well, sort of. The stuff in 
CVS is broken. Last May we completed the GtkExtra port for gpsim (my gtk 
based microcontroller simulator). And just yesterday I fixed a couple more 
issues preventing GtkExtra from compiling on FC3:

http://www.dattalo.com/gnupic/gtk+extra-2-src-1.1.0-20041212.tar.gz
The gpsim Windows port has a link to the GtkExtra package that was built 
back in May:

http://gpsim.sourceforge.net/gpsimWin32/gpsimWin32.html
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Re: gtk-list Digest, Vol 8, Issue 18

2004-12-13 Thread hongky gump
does everybody notice resolve the FRAME *twinkling* for GTK?
it persecutem long time, but i did not found the way.
now, i install the GAIM for WIN32. when pushing the scrolled window(that is the 
contact tree view) top to down,
you will found it's so delay and twinking, the same situation as GTK-demo for 
TreeStore example.

consider it as it stands, i think MFC TreeCtrl has no this problem. does it 
exist only in WIN32 for GTK?
it's weird.

ps, i am a newer with GTK GUI  application, just a green!
but i find like GTK more than MFC, bcoz i like open source, no secret:)

thx

msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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i know is off of topic, but...

2004-12-13 Thread Mario Motta
hi all,
someone can tell me why this piece of sw compile and works even if it 
should not ?

$ gcc --version
gcc (GCC) 3.3.1 (mingw special 20030804-1)
$ gcc impossible.c -o impossible
==
#include 
int main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
int n,lv;
printf("enter lv:");
scanf("%d",&lv);
int impossible[lv];  // declaring an array without a constant size ?
for(n = 0; n < lv; n++)
  {
impossible[n] = n+10;
printf("\nimpossible[%d] = %d",n,impossble[n]);
fflush(stdout);
  }
return 0;
}
TIA
/mario
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Re: i know is off of topic, but...

2004-12-13 Thread Goran Rakic
Mario Motta wrote:
hi all,
someone can tell me why this piece of sw compile and works even if it 
should not ?

$ gcc --version
gcc (GCC) 3.3.1 (mingw special 20030804-1)
$ gcc impossible.c -o impossible

Maybe you are using g++ ?
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Re: gtk for sql applications

2004-12-13 Thread Todd Fisher
Piotr Legiecki wrote:
UÅytkownik Tim MÃller napisaÅ:
On Monday 13 December 2004 13:38, Piotr Legiecki wrote:

I'v just done a quick search for grid like widget (or spreadsheet) 
which
could easly arrange rows and columns of data taken from SQL querry.
Well, I hove found nothing ;-(

Is there really no such a widget? So how you arrange datas from SQL
database?

There's libgnomedb and friends, which have several gnome library 
dependencies though. Check out http://www.gnome-db.org/  for details.

Cheers
 -Tim

Thanx, but I know about gnomedb. I don't want to be gnome dependant. 
So my question is still valid.

I wonder why nobody has written such a usefull wigdet.
Piotr L.
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Not sure if this might be helpful to you. I wrote a simple database tool 
for the
firebird database back in april.  It provides a table to view each table 
selected
from a combobox.  It also allows sql statements to be input and generates a
table of the result set.
http://severna.homeip.net/firegtk-0.1.tar.gz
-todd

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