Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Le 15 juillet 2023 23:00:43 GMT+02:00, MSavoritias a écrit : > >Attila Lendvai writes: > >>> Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction. >>> I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that >>> purpose. >>> As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC. >> >> >> it's an essential role of a forum that latecomers find the earlier >> questions/discussions, typically through a websearch. a forum's >> primary user-story is very much not that of a chat, i.e. a real-time, >> ephemeral, linear flow of text, sometimes with multiple overlapping >> discussions, and as such not very well processed by the search engine >> crawlers... >> >> i think it all boils down to this: >> >> mailing list archives (and IRC logs) are stuck in time. their underlying >> data model is inadequate for efficient indexing/searching, and often lack >> structure even to conveniently present the archive to the user. > >Good point. >My thinking is that next we miss too things for that: > >1. Easy search and indexing of our docs. Which already exists for the >most part. Searching for occurunces of words like grep or a full blown >wiki like gentoo or arch would be an interesting future approach. >2. We need something easier than gnu info to contribute docs. As I have >read a lot in irc for it to be a barrier. And personally its one of the >main reasons i havent contributed yet. That I need time to learn >it. That and I can't easily change or add Docs. I have to do pull >requests and such. At least for the cookbook, we can accept other formats, and a commiter will convert to the proper info format. What matters is the content, and you don't even have to create a patch, just send a chapter to the ML :) > >Thats why I was also aggreeing with Sourcehut in the other email. (Which >already has guix ci support.) Guix would benefit from less NIH imo. At >least in places where there already better solutions. > >Msavoritias > >> -- >> • attila lendvai >> • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 > >
Adding Qt and Telephony teams
Hello Guix! To get this a bit more broadcasted (as suggested by Liliana), I'm reaching out with adding a Qt and Telephony teams (see: #64634 and #64635); you are welcome to join them if these are of interest to you and you would be happy to conduct reviews on relevant patches. Happy hacking, -- Maxim
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Attila Lendvai writes: >> Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction. >> I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that >> purpose. >> As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC. > > > it's an essential role of a forum that latecomers find the earlier > questions/discussions, typically through a websearch. a forum's > primary user-story is very much not that of a chat, i.e. a real-time, > ephemeral, linear flow of text, sometimes with multiple overlapping > discussions, and as such not very well processed by the search engine > crawlers... > > i think it all boils down to this: > > mailing list archives (and IRC logs) are stuck in time. their underlying data > model is inadequate for efficient indexing/searching, and often lack > structure even to conveniently present the archive to the user. Good point. My thinking is that next we miss too things for that: 1. Easy search and indexing of our docs. Which already exists for the most part. Searching for occurunces of words like grep or a full blown wiki like gentoo or arch would be an interesting future approach. 2. We need something easier than gnu info to contribute docs. As I have read a lot in irc for it to be a barrier. And personally its one of the main reasons i havent contributed yet. That I need time to learn it. That and I can't easily change or add Docs. I have to do pull requests and such. Thats why I was also aggreeing with Sourcehut in the other email. (Which already has guix ci support.) Guix would benefit from less NIH imo. At least in places where there already better solutions. Msavoritias > -- > • attila lendvai > • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
> > > I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation > > > relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the > > > places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional > > > frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good. > > > Imo, fragmentation is abound in Guix. > > The official docs, while very good, is missing things that often need to > be answered by reading the source/commit log. Some examples: the manual also, reading the entire manual has an large cost, when e.g. i'm trying out a new distro and i have a limited time and tolerance for frustration. i'll be firing up websearches, skim past discussions, and then as a last resort peek into the code... but i will not read the manual from front to back in that phase. i'm not sure how representative a sample i am, though. > If it's not in the manual, I (and probably many others) turn to my > search engine. But there's a relative lack of blogs covering usage of ...or straight out start with the search engine, and only after that try to browse the relevant part of the manual. > Guix, probably because most people have difficulty using Guix on nonfree > hardware. And the unofficial forums for Guix on Reddit/Lemmy, where yeah, the idealist in me is fully behind the free software fundamentalist stance to not even mention That Other Channel, but the realist in me also sees that it potentially turns away hordes of new users who run out of frustration-tolerance before they could even install the distro and begin playing with it... > Compare this to Nix. It's likely more popular because users have access > to the most number of updated packages on their (likely nonfree) > computers and OSes (as Nix works on Mac). These users then write blog > posts and engage with their community to espouse how amazing their Nix > experience is, which in turn serves as informal documentation. More > users = more contributors = more blog posts and engagement = more users > = positive feedback loop. FWIW, i came to Guix from Nix, and the difference for me in user and contributor experience was enormous. from a technical perspective, i find Guix superior enough to compensate for it, though. -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- Doubt kills more dreams than failure ever will.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
> Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction. > I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that > purpose. > As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC. it's an essential role of a forum that latecomers find the earlier questions/discussions, typically through a websearch. a forum's primary user-story is very much not that of a chat, i.e. a real-time, ephemeral, linear flow of text, sometimes with multiple overlapping discussions, and as such not very well processed by the search engine crawlers... i think it all boils down to this: mailing list archives (and IRC logs) are stuck in time. their underlying data model is inadequate for efficient indexing/searching, and often lack structure even to conveniently present the archive to the user. -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- “If you shut up truth and bury it under the ground, it will but grow, and gather to itself such explosive power that the day it bursts through it will knock down everything that stands in its way.” — Émile Zola (1840–1902)
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
> I'm technically one of the administrators of forums.debian.net and > would not recommend web-based "forums" to projects that do not have > them. They are hard to search and even harder to police. Also, the > software tends to be based on dated technologies. There are better > ways to help people in need. i'm wondering, does that include something like stackexchange.com ? i know that it's not free software, but i'm wondering whether you are saying that a static documentation plus a mailing list is superior to something like stackexchange (i.e. a modern forum engine with tags and all the bells and whistles, and it's well-integrated into general search engines)? because that would go against my experience, very much. -- • attila lendvai • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- “The direct use of physical force is so poor a solution to the problem of limited resources that it is commonly employed only by small children and great nations.” — David D. Friedman (1945–), 'The Machinery of Freedom' (1973)
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
On 2023-07-15 at 02:47+05:30, Sarthak Shah wrote: > The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists > is that it is a lot easier to follow threads on forums. > > You have all the replies on the same page, compared to clicking > on the link of each reply, realizing it doesn't have the answer, > clicking another link and so on... Csepp suggested Sourcehut earlier which has the desired UI/UX, e.g. https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-discuss/%3C20230416195341.0b20bda8a213c8cb868d711f%40posteo.net%3E The best thing about email (list) is interopability, which means not only we can run Sourcehut lists along side Mailman as an alternative frontend (by simply forwarding) or smoothly transition to it, but also every subscriber also have a replica to index as one wishes. While forum implementations usually do support email notification, they are second-class presentation missing certain metadata such as threading information (In-Reply-To).
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Csepp writes: > Robby Zambito writes: > >> Hi Sarthak, >> >>> As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their >>> problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very >>> easy to navigate compared to forum threads. >> >> I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation >> relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the >> places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional >> frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good. > > Sourcehut has full-time employees working on making these accessible, so > it really boggles my mind why we aren't using that instead of Savannah > and Debbugs. > We could also bridge IRC to Matrix (even though the company behind it > has some people who... let's say like the taste of leather too much). > Pine64 has a great chat setup actually, their channels are bridged to a > whole bunch of services. Not saying we must also bridge with Discord, > but at least the libre options should be considered. > Hey, Very much agreed with Sourcehut as a much better frontend for guix. Plus its AGPL3 licensed all of it afaik. Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction. I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that purpose. As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC. MSavoritias >> I have never found myself participating in distro-specific forums; I >> have always used them as read-only sources of information. Yet here I am >> participating in the Guix mailing lists :). I bet I am not alone in this >> experience. >> >> Also FWIW, Guix was basically my introduction to participating in >> mailing lists. So I wouldn't say I am biased in my old ways of doing >> things - I just genuinely think it's a good way to handle communication. >> >> Robby > > Guix is also the first project I contributed to in a major way over > mailing lists and my experience is that if you don't keep up to date > with the list, the lackluster search and linking will be a major pain in > the buttocks. It is usable for experts, but is absolutely not > beginner-friendly. > But even experts would benefit from a better workflow.
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi Sarthak, On 13/07/23 15:52, Sarthak Shah wrote: [...] Software suggestions as well as thoughts on this idea would be greatly appreciated! Personally, I hate web-based forums as much as I love mailing lists - especially when used with netiquette. It's such an ingrained prejudice that I think it's fair for me to refrain from discussing whether a forum is beneficial to new users. However, I do wonder whether the features in Mailman 3, namely Postorius and HyperKitty, might make it easier for new users to get started without losing the ability to hone their skills in information retrieval and knowledge representation models. Regards, Andrea
Re: A Forum for Guix Users
Hi! I saw this thread mentioned in #guix. Csepp 写道： We could also bridge IRC to Matrix This will happen if EMS (representing ‘Matrix’ here) fixes the mysterious errors that are currently plaguing channels trying to migrate from portalled⁰ to plumbed⁰ rooms. Kind regards, T G-R [0]: https://libera.chat/news/matrix-deportalling signature.asc Description: PGP signature
