Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[David S. Mallinak]

An interesting book on this subject is "Uniforms: Why We Are What We 
Wear", by Paul Fussell, Mariner Books, 2002.



Your humble and obediant servant,
David S Mallinak

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Re: [h-cost] elizabethan dress trim question

[michaela]

> > http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/Images/colourpics/8486.jpg ? And do
>
> OOh!  I've never seen that painting before!  Do you have more information
> about it?

http://sayaespanola.glittersweet.com/main.htm
Scroll down, just thought it owuld be nice to show a comparisson between it
and other examples of Spanish fashion.
I found it via the virtual tour on the museum site it is actually on. In the
virtual tour it was an amzing magenta colour, which is why we must always be
careful about colour unless one has seen an item in person. In outdoor
light.. which let's face it is not going to happen very often;)

If it's familiar, it appears in black and white in Patterns of Fashion with
different attribution.

As for jewellery, I've had to cobble mine from various sources (brass
filigree diamonds cut down and layered with other finding for brooches and
two plaque belts for the girdle and carcanet:
http://costumes.glittersweet.com/sca/valois.htm


Amount of trim, I always guesstimate, I know my measurements pretty well now
to say for this example: two limes waist to floor, plus 10cm extra just in
case, 3m hem is usual, four times arm length, four times neck to waist plus
extra for the horizontal arm guards.

I think the wider trim is composed of narrow braid which is used also for
the tabs.

michaela de bruce
http://glittersweet.com



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Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[Catherine Olanich Raymond]

On Thursday 14 July 2005 2:51 am, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:
> >Does anyone else find a man in a well-fitted suit drop-dead sexy? Rarr!
>
> Men have to be a little on the thin side for a suit to look that
> good.  Suits bulk out the man with a good bathing-suit-physique, and he
> looks, well, bulky.

There's some truth to that. 

In general, suits look best on guys with less than perfect figures; they give 
definition and bulk to the skinny, and conceal potbellies and other 
flab-related flaws.  But muscular men tend to have problems with wearing them 
unless they're tailored to perfection.  My husband is convinced that suits 
were designed to make men who work with their bodies (and thus have the 
muscle to prove it) look awkward, and he may have a point.


-- 
Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by
entropy.  I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going
to brush its teeth.  So there."-- Rob Landley 
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Re: [h-cost] Alen/ell?

[Robin Netherton]

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Lauren Walker wrote:

> Cool, thank you. But to revert to my original question -- is there
> anyplace where the various known ells have been compiled for
> comparison and/or reference? You know, "English ell, 15th century,
> 1.25 modern yards; Icelandinc ell, 14th century, 19.5 modern inches,"
> etc.?

I doubt you'll find anything that comprehensive. Sometimes measurements
varied by city, and I wouldn't place bets on them being standard over the
course of a century.

What you will find is references to specific times and places. I believe,
for example, that the facsimile edition of Alcega's pattern book has some
discussion of the ell lengths at that time and place (late 16th c. Spain)
to help you make sense of the patterns. 

If I needed this information, I'd start hunting through literature on
trade and guild regulations in the place and time of interest -- e.g. if I
were studying account books from 1362 London that included fabric orders
of ells, I'd want to know what regulations applied at that period in that
locale.

Where to look for that? I am sure there is a body of literature out there
on this, but it's just a little ways out of my field. I do have contact
with some people who do work in trade and economics, and truth is, if I
needed to know this, I'd probably call one of them, who could probably
know just which reference book to pull off the shelf. Assuming it was for
the right period and country for their expertise!

I do see citations like this on a fairly regular basis -- a few weeks ago
I edited an article comparing cloth production in various French cities
that had to translate the recorded production levels to a consistent rate
... let's see, 840 Flemish ells equalled about 679 Champagne ells or 640
modern yards, in that particular case. So you can see there was a lot of
variation. Among her citations were John Munro, "Textile Technology," in
The Dictionary of the Middle Ages, ed. Joseph R. Strayer (New York:
Scribner, 1988) and Patrick Chorley, "The Cloth Exports of Flanders and
Northern France During the Thirteenth Century: A Luxury Trade?" Economic
History Review, new series 40 (1987): 349-79. She probably got her
particular ell ratios from one of those. In turn, the article she used
might have cited either another paper or a primary source.

--Robin


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Re: [h-cost] Future clothing trends?

[Sue Clemenger]

We get away with casualness in my company for several reasons, a couple 
of which are:
1.  Montana, as a whole, is a much more casual state than many others. 
Even the governor is known to wear jeans on occasion. 
2.  My department deals mostly with data, and virtually no face-to-face 
interactions with clients (that's what the Implementation Dept is for 
...they're the ones who go out to districts and do training, or train 
in-house, and you can definitely tell when it's happening, because they 
all sprout dress pants and ties).
3.  My particular job (as a Data/project manager) involves a fair amount 
of client contact, but again, it's not face-to-face.  I need to know 
client-speak, etc., but they don't have a clue as to what I look like, 
nor do I, they.  Works okay with me, especially on hot summer days like 
this, when the air conditioning isn't working as well as it should, and 
the temp inside the building is somewhere in the 80's.  Definitely 
easier to deal with if I'm not forced into a suit and pantyhose

--Sue

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I wonder if there is a trend that if a person is in a job that produces 
something tangible, they can dress more casually?  The professional dressed

ones are either managers, or sellers of the product, but don't produce anything.



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Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[Adele de Maisieres]

Sue Clemenger wrote:

It's more of an issue with me, as well, but in my case, it's more of a 
bust issue than tummy, which I take care of with gores.
When I wrote that this morning, what I was picturing was not only all 
the folk I know in the SCA who wear "I don't give a [EMAIL PROTECTED] if it's old 
and grody, you can't make me wear anything else" tee tunics, but also 
all the larger people who seem to have bought into the 
tunic-or-houpe-as-medieval-equivalent-to-a-muumuu, when I know, from 
personal experience, that fit is just as important for those of us at 
the larger end of the bodily bell curve as it is for those who are 
otherwise blessed, if not more so!



Oh, jeez, don't get me started.  If I had a dollar for every fat SCAdian 
woman who seems to think that _huge_ clothes are somehow more 
modest/flattering/who knows what than clothes that fit, I would be a 
wealthy woman.  A fat, wealthy, well-dressed woman.




I'd like to add that I know a variety of SCA people, mostly guys, who 
wear nicely fitting tunics or cotes, and their heights and weights 
vary significantly, but they all still look good.  It's the fit, and 
the right materials (natural fibers so ROCK!).




Absolutely! 


--
Adele de Maisieres

-
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
- 


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Re: [h-cost] Alen/ell?

[Lauren Walker]

> From: Joan Jurancich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> There is no "standard ell" that is recognized in all countries,
> especially during these earlier periods.   Depending upon your
> location (and this varied even within some countries), the ell could
> range from half a yard to around 1-1/4 yard.  And it sometimes
> differed depending upon what was being measured.

Cool, thank you. But to revert to my original question -- is there anyplace
where the various known ells have been compiled for comparison and/or
reference? You know, "English ell, 15th century, 1.25 modern yards;
Icelandinc ell, 14th century, 19.5 modern inches," etc.?

Thanks again,
Lauren

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Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[Sue Clemenger]

It's more of an issue with me, as well, but in my case, it's more of a 
bust issue than tummy, which I take care of with gores.
When I wrote that this morning, what I was picturing was not only all 
the folk I know in the SCA who wear "I don't give a [EMAIL PROTECTED] if it's old and 
grody, you can't make me wear anything else" tee tunics, but also all 
the larger people who seem to have bought into the 
tunic-or-houpe-as-medieval-equivalent-to-a-muumuu, when I know, from 
personal experience, that fit is just as important for those of us at 
the larger end of the bodily bell curve as it is for those who are 
otherwise blessed, if not more so!
I'd like to add that I know a variety of SCA people, mostly guys, who 
wear nicely fitting tunics or cotes, and their heights and weights vary 
significantly, but they all still look good.  It's the fit, and the 
right materials (natural fibers so ROCK!).

--sue

J Schueller wrote:


 (Nothing against tee tunics, mind you, or any of the style-cousins, 
but many of the ones I've seen are old, sloppy, and badly-fitting.  
The nicely-fitting ones have just as much Yum! factor as other 
clothing styles. ;oD)

--sue



I do seem to have MORE trouble getting a t-tunic to fit right then 
getting a fitted bodice to fit right though. I have lots of trouble with 
the tummy bigness in relation to the shoulders. (re my questions of 
about a month ago! )


jordana


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Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[Pam Dotson]

>Does anyone else find a man in a well-fitted suit drop-dead sexy? Rarr!
>
 
hums "Every girl's crazy for a sharp dressed man" 



-
 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
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Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology

[Cynthia Virtue]

Adele de Maisieres wrote:

People here practically use "t-tunic" as a techinical term.   It means 
"a basic tunic with a rectangular front and back, unshaped sleeve heads, 
small square gussets at the armpit and two-piece gores in the 
side-seam."  Great shorthand when you want to use that as a starting 
pount for descriding something -- ie, "it's just like a t-tunic only it 
has additional gores at the cente front and back" etc.


Interesting -- to me, it's not really a proper tunic without center 
front and back gores.  Otherwise that's a great description.


Where's "here?"  NZ on your email means New Zealand, I'd guess?

--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent
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Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology

[Adele de Maisieres]

Adele de Maisieres wrote:


pount for descriding something



I'm clearly having one of those days.  But I'd like to define the word 
"descride" as--  v.t. to describe dismissively or unkindly. 



--
Adele de Maisieres

-
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
- 


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Re: [h-cost] velveteen

[Adele de Maisieres]

Bjarne og Leif Drews wrote:

Now, i have ben on this list for long, so please forgive my ignorance 
but what is the difference between velveteen and velvet?

I only know the rayon velvet and cotton velvet. Did i miss something?



Oo, oo!  Pick me!  I know this one!

In velvet, the pile is formed from a supplemental warp.  In velveteen, 
it's formed from a supplemental weft.  So it's a difference in weave 
rather than in fibre. 


--
Adele de Maisieres

-
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
- 


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Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology

[Adele de Maisieres]

Charlene Charette wrote:

My understanding is (and it may be flawed of course) is that 
"T-tunic" has traditionally referred to the fold over cut and sew up 
the side, but otherwise unconstructed sort of tunic.  When you start 
attaching sleeves, or sticking in gores, you are making a constructed 
garment.


Pesonally, I'm not thrilled with the term T-tunic in the first place, 
but whatever.



People here practically use "t-tunic" as a techinical term.   It means 
"a basic tunic with a rectangular front and back, unshaped sleeve heads, 
small square gussets at the armpit and two-piece gores in the 
side-seam."  Great shorthand when you want to use that as a starting 
pount for descriding something -- ie, "it's just like a t-tunic only it 
has additional gores at the cente front and back" etc.


--
Adele de Maisieres

-
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
- 


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Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology

[Adele de Maisieres]

Marc Carlson wrote:


From: Cynthia Virtue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I've heard people rant about not calling tunics-with-gores/godets
"T-Tunics" but I'm not sure why.  The top is shaped like a T, even if
the skirt area spreads out.  Could someone enlighten me?



My understanding is (and it may be flawed of course) is that "T-tunic" 
has traditionally referred to the fold over cut and sew up the side, 
but otherwise unconstructed sort of tunic.  When you start attaching 
sleeves, or sticking in gores, you are making a constructed garment.


Pesonally, I'm not thrilled with the term T-tunic in the first place, 
but whatever.



Around here we tend to use "t-tunic" for a simple gored and gusseted 
model.  The fold-over-and-cut-out model is _very_ uncommon here.


--
Adele de Maisieres

-
Quot homines, tot sententiae.
- 


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Re: [h-cost] velveteen

[Kimiko Small]

At 11:42 AM 7/14/2005, you wrote:
Now, i have ben on this list for long, so please forgive my ignorance but 
what is the difference between velveteen and velvet?

I only know the rayon velvet and cotton velvet. Did i miss something?

Bjarne



Hi Bjarne,

Taken from http://www.apparelsearch.com/glossary_v.htm

velvet:   silk, rayon, cotton, synthetics, and a little wool and 
worsted.  Pile, made with an extra warp yarn.  Mostly made with a plain 
back but some with a twill.  Some are made with a silk pile and a rayon or 
cotton back.


velveteen:  a clothing fabric usually of cotton in twill or plain weaves 
made a short close weft pile in imitation of velvet.  Woven with a extra 
filling yarn with either a plain or a twill back (twill back is the best).


Around in my area, cotton velveteen at 45" is found at most Hancocks or 
Jo-Ann Fabrics, and sometime in Wal-Mart (which I don't buy from anymore, 
you get what you pay for). Cotton velvet is usually only found in 
upholstery stores like Home Fabrics or Harts for the Home, usually at a 
wider width of 54", and is much sturdier and usually with a little deeper 
pile. I just bought a yard of black cotton velvet to see how well it makes 
into a hat.


I have yet to see all rayon velvet, as acetate velvet and other man-made 
materials being more common here for crafters. Silk/rayon velvet is a 
luxury item for me, being something I have to either travel great distances 
to buy (either the Bay area or LA), or buy online.


hth,

Kimiko


Kimiko Small
http://www.kimiko1.com
Fresno, CA, USA

"Lady of the Wardrobe" for Isle of Mann Guild
Portraying at California's Central Valley Renaissance Faires
Lady Clifford, Countess of Cumberland
 (Margaret Percy, Eleanor Brandon, or Margaret Russell)
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Re: [h-cost] brocade / damask question

[Kimiko Small]

At 10:24 PM 7/13/2005, you wrote:
Also which is better/cheaper to buy, use and sew - linen/silk or 
linen/wool blend?



Hi Aylwen,

H... I've never thought of that question. Thanks for asking it. My 
usual thought is what do I want the fabric of my Elizabethans to look like, 
then go from there. As in, do I want it to be a velvet, wool or silk/satin 
look? Is it one color fabric, or do I want to use a something visually 
textured (as in brocade or damask)?


My first reaction is to go with cotton velvet, maybe wool, because that's 
what I can find locally. I've only recently been able to afford doing 
anything in real linen or silks, let alone blends, and then I have to order 
those (and I hate waiting for them to arrive). I want to do a gown in 
hemp/silk blend or a cotton/silk blend to get more weight to the silk, yet 
the look of silk satin, but that's for next year when my body size returns 
to normal.


What I've seen tho' of linen/silk or linen/wool blends tend to look 
visually coarse, not at all as nice as an all wool or all silk fabric. But 
I can't give advice on how well either is to sew up or wear.


If you decide to take the plunge on the blends, please share your 
experiences with us. I always like to hear of others experiences with 
fabric (sometimes I think I am a fabric junkie, not just a sewing junkie).


Kimiko


Kimiko Small
http://www.kimiko1.com
Fresno, CA, USA

"Lady of the Wardrobe" for Isle of Mann Guild
Portraying at California's Central Valley Renaissance Faires
Lady Clifford, Countess of Cumberland
 (Margaret Percy, Eleanor Brandon, or Margaret Russell)

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[h-cost] Re: elizabethan dress trimm question

[Kiloran]

Forgive me for being dense, but I know I've seen that portrait before. I 
just can't for the life of me remember who it is. Could someone ID it for 
me? And does anyone have a link to a larger version of the portrait?


As for the yardage of trim required, my rule is to guestimate generously 
and then increase by 50%. I always end up using/needing more than I figured 
on to begin with.


Julie

At 08:08 AM 7/14/2005, you wrote:

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 00:14:07 +1000
From: Garden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [h-cost] elizabethan dress trim question
To: Historical Costume <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

Hi, I'm feeling lazy, don't feel like getting out the tape measure, its
12:12am here in Australia - maybe one of you on the list has this info
in your head - please don't go to any lengths  - otherwise I should be
the one doing the work  - but approx. how much length of trim do
you think I should get for a reproduction of this dress at
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/Images/colourpics/8486.jpg ? And do
you think the same trim is used throughout the whole dress, or maybe
the tabs at the waist and shoulders are simply edged with gold? And
where on earth would one find the jewellery? (or the money to get it
:((! ) I've already purchased the cotton velvet and am presently making
the undergarments.
Regards, Aylwen Garden


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Re: [h-cost] The purpose of clothing

[Elizabeth Young]

Robin Netherton wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Elizabeth Young wrote:



Robin Netherton wrote:


two books so far on the significance of the clothing descriptions
on Chaucer's general prologue to the Canterbury Tales,


Would you have the citations handy for those works? Sounds
fascinating!


Laura Hodges, _Chaucer and Costume_ and _Chaucer and Clothing_. I'd 
suggest you get them via library or ILL 


I live for ILL - thanks!

liz young

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Re: [h-cost] Re: Slashing [was: h-costume added to Gmane]

[Irmgart]

You do often see the big gold chains with this fashion. Personally, I
have not been able to find anything even remotely close other than
"decorative chain" from the hardware store, and that does not have the
right "look" to me.

photos of extant jewelry: 
http://www.curiousfrau.com/Articles/jewelry.htm

I'm currently trying for a middle class/Kampfollower portrayal... so
might not have as much in the way of heavy gold jewelry.

Also, I personally don't have the money to buy what I think will look
"right." I'm *always* on the lookout, though.

There are a couple of paintings with that style dress without as much
in the way of chains:

http://www.abcgallery.com/C/cranach/cranach45.html
http://www.st-max.org/images/woodcuts/Kampfrau4.jpg
http://www.uni-leipzig.de/ru/bilder/luther/cranac02.jpg

-Irmgart


On 7/14/05, Bjarne og Leif Drews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi
> I can understand you would love to make this, but isnt it difficult to get
> the jewelry that goes with this fashion, i think about the big gold chains?
> They are very important accesories for this fashion?
> 
> Bjarne
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dianne and Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Slashing [was: h-costume added to Gmane]
> 
> 
> >
> >> something along these lines:
> >>
> > http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewOneZoom.asp?dep=11&zoomFlag=0&view
> > Mode=1&item=11.15
> >>
> >
> > Sigh..I love that gown. Absolutely love it. I want it. And there is no way
> > I
> > have time to make it before Pennsic.
> >
> > Dianne
> >
> > ___
> > h-costume mailing list
> > h-costume@mail.indra.com
> > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology

[Cynthia Virtue]

Marc Carlson wrote:
Let's first establish what a "tunic" is:  according to the Oxford 
Mnglish Dictionary and Middle English Dictionary, a Tunic (for the 
middle ages at least) is "A garment resembling a shirt or a gown, worn 
by both sexes among the Greeks and Romans (OED)", "In Old English and 
mediaeval times, a body garment or coat over which a loose mantle of 
cloak was worn. (OED)" and "A garment resembling a shirt or gown, worn 
alone or beneath a mantle, armor, etc. (MED)"


In other words, it is a simple shirt/gown, worn next to the body, as 
opposed to the usual kirtles/gowns, etc, which are worn with a 
shirt/camisa under them,


Did you skip a cite there?  I don't see something which says it wasn't 
worn with some kind of body linen layer under it.  "a body garment or 
coat" seems to imply "tunic" could apply to both layers.


Puzzling,

cv
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[h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology

[Marc Carlson]

From: Charlene Charette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I've never understand the difference between "t-tunic" and "tunic".


Let's first establish what a "tunic" is:  according to the Oxford Mnglish 
Dictionary and Middle English Dictionary, a Tunic (for the middle ages at 
least) is "A garment resembling a shirt or a gown, worn by both sexes among 
the Greeks and Romans (OED)", "In Old English and mediaeval times, a body 
garment or coat over which a loose mantle of cloak was worn. (OED)" and "A 
garment resembling a shirt or gown, worn alone or beneath a mantle, armor, 
etc. (MED)"


In other words, it is a simple shirt/gown, worn next to the body, as opposed 
to the usual kirtles/gowns, etc, which are worn with a shirt/camisa under 
them, and stylistically similar to what people thought the romans and greeks 
wore.


A "T-tunic." as I learned the term, was a modern term for a simple type of 
tunic cut from a wide bit of fabric, folded, then cut in the shape of a "T" 
and so there is minimal cutting and sewing.  The term may refer to the shape 
it's cut from, or the fact they are as ubiquitous as t-shirts, or could be 
worn like t-shirts (all of which I've heard as -the- explanation.


Marc


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Re: [h-cost] Alen/ell?

[Joan Jurancich]

At 10:07 AM 7/14/2005, you wrote:

Hi,
Going through my copy of _Woven into the Earth_ with a calculator this time,
since I still think in inches, not centimeters. Ostergard writes that the
ell (alen) as referred to in the Gragas manuscript was about 19.29 inches --
or roughly 1/2 modern yard. I have heard elsewhere that the standard "ell"
was closer to the full modern yard. Is there a good resource for historical
units of measurement?
Thanks!
Lauren
--
Lauren M. Walker
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
"One does not need buildings, money, power, or status to practice the Art of
Peace. Heaven is right where you are standing, and that is the place to
train." -- Morihei Ueshiba


There is no "standard ell" that is recognized in all countries, 
especially during these earlier periods.   Depending upon your 
location (and this varied even within some countries), the ell could 
range from half a yard to around 1-1/4 yard.  And it sometimes 
differed depending upon what was being measured.


Joan Jurancich
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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[h-cost] velveteen

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Now, i have ben on this list for long, so please forgive my ignorance but 
what is the difference between velveteen and velvet?

I only know the rayon velvet and cotton velvet. Did i miss something?

Bjarne





Leif og Bjarne Drews
www.my-drewscostumes.dk

http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ 



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Re: [h-cost] Re: Slashing [was: h-costume added to Gmane]

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Hi
I can understand you would love to make this, but isnt it difficult to get 
the jewelry that goes with this fashion, i think about the big gold chains? 
They are very important accesories for this fashion?


Bjarne
- Original Message - 
From: "Dianne and Greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Slashing [was: h-costume added to Gmane]





something along these lines:


http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewOneZoom.asp?dep=11&zoomFlag=0&view
Mode=1&item=11.15




Sigh..I love that gown. Absolutely love it. I want it. And there is no way 
I

have time to make it before Pennsic.

Dianne

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Re: [h-cost] Alen/ell?

[Bjarne og Leif Drews]

Hi
Østergaard is danish, and here we use the word alen. It is an old meassure 
comparallel to an ell.
I once went to a lecture where Østergaard showed slides and told about the 
royal childrens burrials at Roskilde Cathedral. Very very interresting.

She is a member of the danish textile history group.

Bjarne

- Original Message - 
From: "Robert Uhl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Alen/ell?



Lauren Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


Ostergard writes that the ell (alen) as referred to in the Gragas
manuscript was about 19.29 inches -- or roughly 1/2 modern yard. I
have heard elsewhere that the standard "ell" was closer to the full
modern yard.


FWIW the definition of 'ell' with which I am familiar is exactly 1/2 yd.

--
Robert Uhl 
Truth hurts.  Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with a seat
missing, but it hurts.--Drebin, Naked Gun 2 1/2

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Re: [h-cost] Re:Men in suits (was: Future ware(gloves)

[Susan B. Farmer]

Quoting Carmen Beaudry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:



I disagree.  I have yet to find a man, of whatever physique, who doesn't
look good in a suit.  This includes a good friend who's at least 100 lbs
overweight.



Oh, yeah.  I'll second that idea.  My teen-ager wanted to buy his tux 
after his
prom for that reason.  He's also getting more of the guys in his youth 
choir at

church to wear ties/jackets.  Evidently, the other fellows are noticing the
attention that he gets from the girls in his suit .

Susan
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Re: [h-cost] elizabethan dress trim question

[Susan B. Farmer]

Quoting Garden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/Images/colourpics/8486.jpg ? And do


OOh!  I've never seen that painting before!  Do you have more information
about it?

Susan
-
Susan Farmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
University of Tennessee
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/


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Re: [h-cost] Future clothing trends?

[Dawn]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




I wonder if there is a trend that if a person is in a job that produces 
something tangible, they can dress more casually?  The professional dressed

ones are either managers, or sellers of the product, but don't produce anything.



What I've seen in recent years is that professional jobs where you 
interact with "clients" require more formal dress than jobs where your 
workgroup never meets anyone outside its own department. Clients can be 
people outside your department or building, depending on what service 
job you're in, as well as outside the company.



Dawn


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Re: [h-cost] Alen/ell?

[Robert Uhl]

Lauren Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Ostergard writes that the ell (alen) as referred to in the Gragas
> manuscript was about 19.29 inches -- or roughly 1/2 modern yard. I
> have heard elsewhere that the standard "ell" was closer to the full
> modern yard.

FWIW the definition of 'ell' with which I am familiar is exactly 1/2 yd.

-- 
Robert Uhl 
Truth hurts.  Maybe not as much as jumping on a bicycle with a seat
missing, but it hurts.--Drebin, Naked Gun 2 1/2

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Re: [h-cost] elizabethan dress trim question

[Kimiko Small]

At 07:14 AM 7/14/2005, you wrote:

 And where on earth would one find the jewellery?



There is a company in England that makes pewter replicas of Tudor jewelry 
(and other jewelry things, spoons, collars, etc.), and he notes that he 
makes custom pieces as well.

http://www.tudorjewels.com/ (for the historical images)
http://www.pewterreplicas.com/ (to order the same)

While it may not be exactly what you are looking for, some of the patterns 
appear similar, or he could make them for you.


I have not ordered from him yet, but plan on doing so later this year when 
I have some more money.


Kimiko


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Re: [h-cost] brocade / damask question

[Kimiko Small]

At 06:28 AM 7/14/2005, you wrote:

Oooops!  That last message wasn't supposed to go to the list.

Sorry!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"



That's fine with me. I was about to start looking for something similar for 
my next Tudor gown ideas. It will be a bit before I can order and make 
anything, tho. But I am glad to know you have materials I am looking for.


Thanks for posting the info.

Kimiko


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[h-cost] Future clothing trends?

[saka]

Repling to part:

My husband's place of employment is slowly swinging in the other
direction--they just sent down a new rule that jeans and khakis are no
longer acceptable dress during the week--and this is a cluster of radio
stations, which normally tend to be quite casual. I did notice, though, that
I have never seen the program director without a suit and tie.

Does anyone else find a man in a well-fitted suit drop-dead sexy? Rarr!

Dianne
---

Kind of sad that there are a lot of jobs that require an image to maintain,
but do not provide the salary to maintain it!  My friend is trying to get
a job that will pay only $9/hr, and expect professional dress.  

When I lost my job, my husband's salary wouldn't have been enough to keep
our house if his job required dress clothes and the money to maintain them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but along with clothes there's the car you drive and you
address.  These things can easily cost more than your salary can afford.
That's another part of the "image" people feel they need to maintain.

One of my friends who works in the computer industry said once, "I wished
the TechBubble would have stayed around long enough to get rid of the
notion of professional dress once and for all."  His job allowed him to
wear free (computer conference swag) tshirts and shorts to work.  He
was a programmer and actually had to produce something that worked, rather
than sell a product (where looks, including pure physical appearance is 
a big factor) or management where he sat in meetings all day with other
people who didn't produce anything.

I wonder if there is a trend that if a person is in a job that produces 
something tangible, they can dress more casually?  The professional dressed
ones are either managers, or sellers of the product, but don't produce anything.

Another thing my husband has noted in the computer industry is those that
dress nicer are often compensating for a lack of job skills (unless a
dress code is enforced).

Kate
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[h-cost] Alen/ell?

[Lauren Walker]

Hi,
Going through my copy of _Woven into the Earth_ with a calculator this time,
since I still think in inches, not centimeters. Ostergard writes that the
ell (alen) as referred to in the Gragas manuscript was about 19.29 inches --
or roughly 1/2 modern yard. I have heard elsewhere that the standard "ell"
was closer to the full modern yard. Is there a good resource for historical
units of measurement?
Thanks!
Lauren
-- 
Lauren M. Walker
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- 
"One does not need buildings, money, power, or status to practice the Art of
Peace. Heaven is right where you are standing, and that is the place to
train." -- Morihei Ueshiba

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Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology

[Charlene Charette]

Marc Carlson wrote:

From: Cynthia Virtue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I've heard people rant about not calling tunics-with-gores/godets
"T-Tunics" but I'm not sure why.  The top is shaped like a T, even if
the skirt area spreads out.  Could someone enlighten me?



My understanding is (and it may be flawed of course) is that "T-tunic" 
has traditionally referred to the fold over cut and sew up the side, but 
otherwise unconstructed sort of tunic.  When you start attaching 
sleeves, or sticking in gores, you are making a constructed garment.


Pesonally, I'm not thrilled with the term T-tunic in the first place, 
but whatever.


I've never understand the difference between "t-tunic" and "tunic".

--Charlene


--
America is addicted to wars of distraction.  -- Barbara Ehrenreich
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Re: [h-cost] Re: "Future clothing"

[aquazoo]

 A couple years back, my nephew had a crew neck undershirt showing in
his open collar.  We were about to do a family portrait, so I
suggested he adjust it.  I was informed that it was an intentional
look.

 Better that than boxeer shprts showing, I guess!  :-)

 -Carol


> I thought it was more usual to wear a tank undershirt and show a very
> small amount of upper chest, but I don't meddle in these things.
>
> You should see his sandals--he's had that pair since we first met (as
> college students) and he refuses to replace them. They look like
> archaeological finds.  Luckily he only wears them to do yard work.
>
> Fran
> Lavolta Press
> http://www.lavoltapress.com
>
> Robert Uhl wrote:
>
>>Lavolta Press <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>>
>>>Hey, my husband still wears the crew-necked white undershirt sticking
>>>out of the shirt neck.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>That's wrong?!?  I'd far rather show an undershirt than my chest...
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [h-cost] Re: "Future clothing"

[Lavolta Press]

I thought it was more usual to wear a tank undershirt and show a very 
small amount of upper chest, but I don't meddle in these things. 

You should see his sandals--he's had that pair since we first met (as 
college students) and he refuses to replace them. They look like 
archaeological finds.  Luckily he only wears them to do yard work.


Fran
Lavolta Press
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Robert Uhl wrote:


Lavolta Press <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
 


Hey, my husband still wears the crew-necked white undershirt sticking
out of the shirt neck.
   



That's wrong?!?  I'd far rather show an undershirt than my chest...

 


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[h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology

[Marc Carlson]

From: Cynthia Virtue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I've heard people rant about not calling tunics-with-gores/godets
"T-Tunics" but I'm not sure why.  The top is shaped like a T, even if
the skirt area spreads out.  Could someone enlighten me?


My understanding is (and it may be flawed of course) is that "T-tunic" has 
traditionally referred to the fold over cut and sew up the side, but 
otherwise unconstructed sort of tunic.  When you start attaching sleeves, or 
sticking in gores, you are making a constructed garment.


Pesonally, I'm not thrilled with the term T-tunic in the first place, but 
whatever.


Marc


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Re: [h-cost] Re: "Future clothing"

[Robert Uhl]

Lavolta Press <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Hey, my husband still wears the crew-necked white undershirt sticking
> out of the shirt neck.

That's wrong?!?  I'd far rather show an undershirt than my chest...

-- 
Robert Uhl 
The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the
question of whether a submarine can swim.   --Edsger W. Dijkstra

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Re: [h-cost] elizabethan dress trim question

[Sarafina Sinclair]

Greetings,

A friend and I did a set of 1590s spanish court clothing for the King and Queen 
of the Midrealm a year or so and we went through easily 100 yards of trim. You 
could conservatively estimate 50 yards of trim for this dress and still not put 
as much trim on as you could. I have portraits of Spanish royalty on my website 
to give you some comparison to the portrait you referenced.

Check out:
http://ladysarafina.home.att.net/anneofaus.JPG
http://ladysarafina.home.att.net/cathofaus.JPG
http://ladysarafina.home.att.net/claraeugenia2.JPG
http://ladysarafina.home.att.net/lizdevalois2.JPG

Hope this helps,

Sarafina

--
The Honourable Lady Sarafina Sinclair, CE 
http://ladysarafina.home.att.net 



-- Original message from Garden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: -- 


> Hi, I'm feeling lazy, don't feel like getting out the tape measure, its 
> 12:12am here in Australia - maybe one of you on the list has this info 
> in your head - please don't go to any lengths - otherwise I should be 
> the one doing the work - but approx. how much length of trim do 
> you think I should get for a reproduction of this dress at 
> http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/Images/colourpics/8486.jpg ? And do 
> you think the same trim is used throughout the whole dress, or maybe 
> the tabs at the waist and shoulders are simply edged with gold? And 
> where on earth would one find the jewellery? (or the money to get it 
> :((! ) I've already purchased the cotton velvet and am presently making 
> the undergarments. 
> Regards, Aylwen Garden 
> 
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[h-cost] looking for picture of Frank Leslie's Lady's magazine

[Deredere Galbraith]

Hi,

I have found a nice drawing from  Frank Leslie's Lady's magazine.
But the picture is quite small and since I am using it for inspiration 
for my bustle dress,

I wondered if someone has a bigger picture of it.
Here is the one I found online.
http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/women/fashionplates/1870sleslies.gif

I am making the dress from light purple cotton and a white and dark 
purple cooton plaid.


Greetings,
  Deredere


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[h-cost] Tunic terminology

[Cynthia Virtue]

I've heard people rant about not calling tunics-with-gores/godets 
"T-Tunics" but I'm not sure why.  The top is shaped like a T, even if 
the skirt area spreads out.  Could someone enlighten me?


--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

  "Such virtue hath my pen"  -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
   "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!"  --Cynthia Virtue
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[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 455

[Mara Riley]

I don't think there were Puritans, per se, in 1740.  Does he mean
1640, perhaps?  Or, if 1740, maybe he's referring to Presbyterian or
some other Protestant Scots-Irish immigrants?

-- Mara


Message: 1
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:10:49 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [h-cost] 1740s characters
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

A friend of mine has been asked to get together some costumes for a 
short  
promotional film to show investors and others in order to get funding

to do a  
whole film. He always comes to me for period consultation because he 
has never  
studied any period clothing or costuming or design. But he's bright 
and eager 
 and learns fast. I come to consult you guys
(snip)
Any suggestions and insights...or inside info on the period or  
Puritans...is 
greatly appreciated.


-
http://www.knittingobsession.com - modern knitting stuff
http://www.knittingobsession.blogspot.com
http://www.marariley.net - 18th century research and knitting patterns
-
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. - Voltaire
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Re: [h-cost] elizabethan dress trim question

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

The wise acre answer to that is, how much can you afford? For my Elizabethans I 
have stopped buying trim in anything less than 10 yard batches and prefer to 
buy the trim in 20 to 30 yard lengths. As the portrait doesn't show what is 
happening at the hem (do I count as a true 16th century costuming geek since I 
knew who the subject of the portrait was immediately?) you will have to guess 
based on other Spanish potraits of the time and extrapolate. Since this is a 
Royal portrait, I tend to think tha the trim was used pretty extravagantly. 

Good luck on the jewelry!


Karen
Seamstrix

-- Garden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi, I'm feeling lazy, don't feel like getting out the tape measure, its 
12:12am here in Australia - maybe one of you on the list has this info 
in your head - please don't go to any lengths  - otherwise I should be 
the one doing the work  - but approx. how much length of trim do 
you think I should get for a reproduction of this dress at 
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/Images/colourpics/8486.jpg ? And do 
you think the same trim is used throughout the whole dress, or maybe 
the tabs at the waist and shoulders are simply edged with gold? And 
where on earth would one find the jewellery? (or the money to get it 
:((! ) I've already purchased the cotton velvet and am presently making 
the undergarments.
Regards, Aylwen Garden

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Re: [h-cost] The purpose of clothing

[Robin Netherton]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Elizabeth Young wrote:

> Robin Netherton wrote:
> > I know a scholar who has done two books so far on the significance of
> > the clothing descriptions on Chaucer's general prologue to the
> > Canterbury Tales, if you want a good set of examples of cues that the
> > medieval reader would have found significant.
> 
> Would you have the citations handy for those works? Sounds fascinating!

Laura Hodges, _Chaucer and Costume_ and _Chaucer and Clothing_. I'd
suggest you get them via library or ILL rather than buying them sight
unseen; they're primarily lit-crit (or, as the description says, "the
semiotics of textile and costume in literature"), not costume histories
per se. The first one (which is out of print) is about the secular
pilgrims in the Tales, and the second (just released this year) is about
the religious pilgrims. Summaries here:
http://www.boydell.co.uk/59915778.HTM
http://www.boydell.co.uk/43840332.HTM

Laura and I had the same Chaucer professor (though at different
universities) in, hmm, the late 1970s for me, I think the 1980s for Laura.
We met through her at Kalamazoo and see each other there every year.

--Robin

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[h-cost] elizabethan dress trim question

[Garden]

Hi, I'm feeling lazy, don't feel like getting out the tape measure, its 
12:12am here in Australia - maybe one of you on the list has this info 
in your head - please don't go to any lengths  - otherwise I should be 
the one doing the work  - but approx. how much length of trim do 
you think I should get for a reproduction of this dress at 
http://www.earthlydelights.com.au/Images/colourpics/8486.jpg ? And do 
you think the same trim is used throughout the whole dress, or maybe 
the tabs at the waist and shoulders are simply edged with gold? And 
where on earth would one find the jewellery? (or the money to get it 
:((! ) I've already purchased the cotton velvet and am presently making 
the undergarments.

Regards, Aylwen Garden

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[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 455

[Mia Dappert]

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 00:10:49 EDT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [h-cost] 1740s characters
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

A friend of mine has been asked to get together some costumes for a short 
promotional film to show investors and others in order to get funding to do a 
whole film. He always comes to me for period consultation because he has never 
studied any period clothing or costuming or design. But he's bright and eager 
and learns fast. I come to consult you guys

Anyway, I haven't seen a script or anything but apparently the cast includes 
2 men, a son and father I think, who are Puritans in Ireland getting ready 
to go to the new world. There is also a Catholic servant girl. It is the 1740s.

Obviously things need to look good and interestingand convincing. We're 
trying to sell the thing, right?

I thought the men would be in well made fine clothes in dark colors [wool] 
devoid of trim. Nice but not flashy buttons...perhaps of the coat fabric or 
matching,certainly analogous, in coloring, and button holes [uncut] being the 
only decorations. The silhouette should be reasonably fashionable I 
think...they aren't poor. So the coat skirts would be full with fairly large 
cuffs, no 
collar. The waistcoats kinda long and buttoned high. No frills on the 
shirt...but a stock [right?]. Plain stockings [dark?] and buckled shoes. Could 
I get 
away with a coat buttoning? In the 1740s, the coats' CF don't curve over the 
breast do they? They are straight.

The men will most likely be rented. Any suggestions on where to go before we 
just call Western Costume or something?

The girl [which I may make for my friend] I want to put in a jacket and 
petticoat. I'd do a simple gown...but the fabric I want to use is only a 4 yard 
piece. It's a cotton that is dark dark OD green...unevenly dyed...with a sprig 
with leaves printed all over in dark grey. Looks blockprinted. It'd make a 
great jacket with some modest skirts and laced up CF. I need some instructions 
on how to do a single lace. A dark petticoat and a pinner apron. A fichu 
should fill inin a very modest way, the neckline. A linen cap...maybe one 
of 
those that has wide ties that go behind the ears and under the chin. She's 
not Puritan remember so maybe line the jacket with brick red...a glimpse of 
color. The apron shouldn't be white either I think. Maybe out and out beige or 
brown. Striped? Like ticking?

What do y'all think? Any interesting details I might add to the men or girl 
you can think of? Like I saidhaven't seen a script. Maybe it will suggest 
some good details...like scissors or keys on hanging from the girls 
waist...y'know, that kind of thing.

Any suggestions and insights...or inside info on the period or Puritans...is 
greatly appreciated.



I know the late 1700's better. The clothing seems right on, but seems to my 
recollection that 1740's is pretty late for Puritans in the states  Again New 
england is not my area 

(New England is a BIG assumption on my part.  Irish went to all areas of the 
new world north american colonies. What follows is the really,really short 
version of history  Puritans were origianlly scheduled to land further south 
and ended up in the cold north.  Ladies from Canada, did any end up on your 
shores? )  

Am Rev War Mia in CHarlotte



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Re: [h-cost] Influence of women, was Future ware(gloves)

[Kate M Bunting]

Given the (officially) low status of women in the past (though many no doubt 
found ways of exerting influence), I can't imagine it ever having been the norm 
for wives to choose their husbands' clothes. As for "dressing up", don't forget 
that before the 19th century well-to-do men often chose to dress quite 
flamboyantly.
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 14/07/2005 02:42 >>>


Now, to bring this back onto a historical note, I have a thought 
question.  I was talking to some guys at work (older)  and they siad 
that they had never bought cloths for themselfs, their wifes had always 
boght their clothes. 

So, how much of what guys wore over the centries has been what they 
wanted to wear, and how much of it was chosen by thier womanfolks?

A;sp. it seems like many modern guys dislike "dressing up" per say (say 
tux and such) and the popular image is that women like to dress up more 
then guys.  has this always been the popular image?

jordana

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Re: [h-cost] brocade / damask question

[Diana Habra]

Oooops!  That last message wasn't supposed to go to the list.

Sorry!

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Re: [h-cost] brocade / damask question

[Diana Habra]

> Sorry to hijack your topic, but I've got a question on the same topic -
> I'm about to make an upper-class Elizabethan Gown and am looking
> for a lovely rich brocade to use in earthy colour combinations - can
> anyone recommend a place online that I might go to that would have a
> design that is close to period accurate and is of a natural fibre? Also
> which is better/cheaper to buy, use and sew - linen/silk or linen/wool
> blend?
> Many thanks, Aylwen
>

Aylwen,

I have some brocades that might work for you.  They are 50% cotton/50%
polyester and there are several in earth tones.  I am trying very hard to
find an all cotton/linen/wool brocade supplier but I am not having much
luck and when I do find a lovely fabric, the price is outrageous.  The
blends that I have were a very good deal so I figured that at least 50%
cotton was better than nothing ;~>

Take a look at what I have:

http://www.renaissancefabrics.net/products.php?int_style_id=3

(Click the "next" button to see the second page)

Let me know if you are interested in anything and I can send you swatches
if you like.  Just tell me which ones and what address to send them to

Diana

www.RenaissanceFabrics.net
"Everything for the Costumer"

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Re: [h-cost] 1740s characters

[Kate M Bunting]

Well, I associate the term "Puritan" with the late 16th-early 17th centuries. 
Puritanism was a movement within the Church of England protesting against what 
they saw as continuing Catholic practices in worship. By the 18th century, 
people of that persuasion had started to form separate Nonconformist churches. 
I don't know anything specific about 1740s Ireland, but no doubt well-to-do 
Nonconformists would wear plain but well-cut clothing such as you describe.
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 14/07/2005 05:10 >>>

Anyway, I haven't seen a script or anything but apparently the cast  includes 
2 men, a son and father I think, who are Puritans in Ireland getting  ready 
to go to the new world. There is also a Catholic servant girl. It is the  1740s.
Any suggestions and insights...or inside info on the period or  Puritans...is 
greatly appreciated.

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[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 454

[Gail & Scott Finke]

> Does anyone else find a man in a well-fitted suit drop-dead sexy? Rarr!

Oh my, yes! For our wedding 17 years ago, all the men in the party wore
pearl gray tailcoats. I loved the color at the time, though it is very dated
now. As someone who loves historic costume, that doesn't bother me. Anyway,
one of the men in the party was very overweight, and he looked gorgeous in
his tux. It wasn't even fitted! Just a rental. I wish men would wear them
all the time.

I really got to appreciate suits when I worked in the Pennsylvania Capital
building for a summer internship. Many of the lobbyists wore very expensive,
tailored suits. And there is nothing anonymous looking about them!

Gail Finke


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Re: [h-cost] brocade / damask question

[Joan Jurancich]

At 03:46 AM 7/14/2005, Cynthia Virtue wrote:

Side note: I was taught that it's not a brocade unless it has a gold 
thread in the design.  Otherwise it's something else.  Not sure if 
this is true or not!


A brocade is (properly, as per a weaver) defined by the weaving 
technique used to create the design.  Gold thread just makes it an 
*expensive* brocade.


Joan Jurancich
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 


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Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[J Schueller]

 (Nothing against tee tunics, mind you, or any of the style-cousins, 
but many of the ones I've seen are old, sloppy, and badly-fitting.  
The nicely-fitting ones have just as much Yum! factor as other 
clothing styles. ;oD)

--sue


I do seem to have MORE trouble getting a t-tunic to fit right then 
getting a fitted bodice to fit right though. I have lots of trouble with 
the tummy bigness in relation to the shoulders. (re my questions of 
about a month ago! )


jordana

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Re: [h-cost] rayon velvet any use?

[michaela]

> I have to agree with Suzi.  I don't wash my velvets before or after I
> sew...it seems to mess with the pyle/pile.  ok, it gets funky after it's
> washed; however gently.

And I've found all the velvet I have washed looks infinitely better than
when I first got it. Same with many people around me who wash fabrics the
second they get them.

I was all mine in cold water with enough powder to remove whatever treatment
is put on. I find velveteen here especially given some treatment that makes
them mush harsher than they need to be. I snubbed velveteen for years
because of it.
I also either use fabric conditioner or regular conditioner (ok, high end
stuff, but it's made for hair anyway;) ) and then hang it out on a day where
it's either mildly windy (beats out folds and wrinkles) or on a damp day
with light breezes.

If the pile still isn't soft I'll hand spritz it with a mixture of water an
my best conditioner and pat the pile until it feels better.

I've had cotton velvet curtains come up beautifully this way too. Necessary
when you are poor and the only large lot of velvet of this thickness you can
get is by buying second hand.

And when velveteen in the shops is less than perfect.

I have had poly velvet get wet and then go crunchy when dry (though it was
able to be brushed softer again), which really made me nervous the first
time I washed cotton velvet. But I have also washed a viscose piled silk
backed velvet with no adverse reaction. Gentle cycle cold water.

I suspect success has as much to to with the actual fabric bought (and
prestore treatment) as the water you have (our water fluctuates between soft
and hard and musty) and the machine and drying space etc.

I consider myself lucky to live in Auckland, even though the humidity is
extremely frustrating from a comfort point of view, just as the rain is, it
can be great for some washing needs. If not general washing needs;)

We don't have a dryer btw, which is probably not the case for the vast
majority here. We simply have no need of it. If it's cold and wet we usually
have the heater on and the lounge becomes a laundry room over night. If it's
a lovely day they we have two seperate drying areas.

michaela de bruce
http://glittersweet.com



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[h-cost] 1740s characters

[AlbertCat]

A friend of mine has been asked to get together some costumes for a short  
promotional film to show investors and others in order to get funding to do a  
whole film. He always comes to me for period consultation because he has never  
studied any period clothing or costuming or design. But he's bright and eager 
 and learns fast. I come to consult you guys
 
Anyway, I haven't seen a script or anything but apparently the cast  includes 
2 men, a son and father I think, who are Puritans in Ireland getting  ready 
to go to the new world. There is also a Catholic servant girl. It is the  1740s.
 
Obviously things need to look good and interestingand convincing. We're  
trying to sell the thing, right?
 
I thought the men would be in well made fine clothes in dark colors  [wool] 
devoid of trim. Nice but not flashy buttons...perhaps of the  coat fabric or 
matching,certainly analogous, in coloring, and button holes  [uncut] being the 
only decorations. The silhouette should be reasonably  fashionable I 
think...they aren't poor. So the coat skirts would be full  with fairly large 
cuffs, no 
collar. The waistcoats kinda long and buttoned high.  No frills on the 
shirt...but a stock [right?]. Plain stockings [dark?] and  buckled shoes. Could 
I get 
away with a coat buttoning? In the 1740s, the  coats' CF don't curve over the 
breast do they? They are straight.
 
The men will most likely be rented. Any suggestions on where to go before  we 
just call Western Costume or something?
 
The girl [which I may make for my friend] I want to put in a jacket  and 
petticoat. I'd do a simple gown...but the fabric I want to  use is only a 4 
yard 
piece. It's a cotton that is dark dark OD  green...unevenly dyed...with a sprig 
with leaves printed all over in dark grey.  Looks blockprinted. It'd make a 
great jacket with some modest skirts  and laced up CF. I need some instructions 
on how to do a single  lace. A dark petticoat and a pinner apron. A fichu 
should fill inin a  very modest way, the neckline. A linen cap...maybe one 
of 
those that has wide  ties that go behind the ears and under the chin. She's 
not Puritan remember  so maybe line the jacket with brick red...a glimpse of 
color. The apron  shouldn't be white either I think. Maybe out and out beige or 
brown. Striped?  Like ticking?
 
What do y'all think? Any interesting details I might add to the men or girl  
you can think of? Like I saidhaven't seen a script. Maybe it will suggest  
some good details...like scissors or keys on hanging from the girls  
waist...y'know, that kind of thing.
 
Any suggestions and insights...or inside info on the period or  Puritans...is 
greatly appreciated.
 
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Re: [h-cost] brocade / damask question

[Cynthia Virtue]

I'm about to make an upper-class Elizabethan Gown and am looking
for a lovely rich brocade to use in earthy colour combinations - can 
anyone recommend a place online that I might go to that would have a 
design that is close to period accurate and is of a natural fibre?


Calico Corners is a chain expensive fabric/curtain store.  They have 
damask silk in their orderable racks, but it's (IIRC) $50/yard.  Lovely 
though.


Side note: I was taught that it's not a brocade unless it has a gold 
thread in the design.  Otherwise it's something else.  Not sure if this 
is true or not!

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Re: [h-cost] The purpose of clothing

[Elizabeth Young]

Robin Netherton wrote:

I know a scholar who has done two books so far on the significance of
the clothing descriptions on Chaucer's general prologue to the
Canterbury Tales, if you want a good set of examples of cues that the
medieval reader would have found significant.


Would you have the citations handy for those works? Sounds fascinating!

liz young

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Re: [h-cost] Re: Defensive costuming

[Shane & Sheridan]

> And I've been known to refer to a steel-boned corset as my "brigantine".
> > :-)
> >
> > Joan Jurancich
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> Your brigantine???
> 
> Er - what is the connection between a woman's steel-boned  undergarment, -
and a two masted, sailing cargo-ship - square-rigged on the foremast, and
fore-&-aft-rigged on the main mast
> Sorry, but I had to ask   :-)>
>
>
> Yours in service,
> Julian Wilson,

Well, in at least two Terry Pratchett books, there is reference to ladies
corsetry 'creaking like a tea clipper in a gale'.

That image just sticks with me for some reason. :-)

Sheridan


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Re: [h-cost] The purpose of clothing

[Cynthia Virtue]

Robin Netherton wrote:

In the offices I've worked in, it was the secretaries and lower-level
assistants that wore the snazzy hairstyles, trendy jewelry, shorter
skirts, figure-flattering tops, and the like. The higher the level, the
more sober the women dressed -- definitely well-groomed and successful,
but not at all "attractive" in the narrower sense.


That's because sex sells.  Sells cars, sells people.  If someone's for 
sale, they're not successful.  Does "figure flattering top" mean "shows 
the bustline off to advantage?"  "Whose advantage?" is the next question.


I don't doubt that most of the people on this list understand this 
point; it's a pity more "average" people don't.


--
Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent

  "Such virtue hath my pen"  -Shakespeare, Sonnet 81
   "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!"  --Cynthia Virtue
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Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[J Schueller]

Does anyone else find a man in a well-fitted suit drop-dead sexy? Rarr!

Dianne
 

Yes, and i keep trying to convice my husband tio wear that stuff, but he 
says since he put on the years to get a phd, he does not have to wear 
that, and so i have to subsite on him in khakies :(


Now, to bring this back onto a historical note, I have a thought 
question.  I was talking to some guys at work (older)  and they siad 
that they had never bought cloths for themselfs, their wifes had always 
boght their clothes. 

So, how much of what guys wore over the centries has been what they 
wanted to wear, and how much of it was chosen by thier womanfolks?


A;sp. it seems like many modern guys dislike "dressing up" per say (say 
tux and such) and the popular image is that women like to dress up more 
then guys.  has this always been the popular image?


jordana

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Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[Sue Clemenger]

I think the key clue in the original question is "well-fitted," which, 
for me, would certainly include fabrics with a drape/hand appropriate to 
the wearer and the design.  Certainly, men with different builds will 
look different in suits, but they all do tend to look Pretty Darned Good 
in a properly fitted suit.  But then, I think the same about most men in 
any sort of well-fitted historical clothing.  Or the right Levi's and 
tee shirt. 
I suppose the same thing holds true for women, as well, although without 
the same "yumm!" reaction, at least on my part ;o) I do know that I look 
better when I'm wearing something that isn't completely sloppy and 
casual (which I do a LOT--I'm large and also work in a geek haven so the 
dress code is very...relaxed).  Ditto my SCA garb (which is all that I 
do in the way of historical clothing)...properly fitted and cut, it 
looks a LOT better than a sloppy 'ole tee tunic.  (Nothing against tee 
tunics, mind you, or any of the style-cousins, but many of the ones I've 
seen are old, sloppy, and badly-fitting.  The nicely-fitting ones have 
just as much Yum! factor as other clothing styles. ;oD)

--sue

Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote:



Does anyone else find a man in a well-fitted suit drop-dead sexy? Rarr!



Men have to be a little on the thin side for a suit to look that good.  
Suits bulk out the man with a good bathing-suit-physique, and he looks, 
well, bulky.




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Re: [h-cost] Re:Men in suits (was: Future ware(gloves)

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

Men have to be a little on the thin side for a suit to look that
good.  Suits bulk out the man with a good bathing-suit-physique, and he 
looks, well, bulky.


I disagree.  I have yet to find a man, of whatever physique, who doesn't 
look good in a suit.  This includes a good friend who's at least 100 lbs 
overweight.


Your friend probably looked better in a suit than he looks in a t-shirt and 
shorts, but I have my own preferences.


   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

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Re: [h-cost] Re: Slashing [was: h-costume added to Gmane]

[Dianne and Greg]

> something along these lines:
>
http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_Of_Art/viewOneZoom.asp?dep=11&zoomFlag=0&view
Mode=1&item=11.15
>

Sigh..I love that gown. Absolutely love it. I want it. And there is no way I
have time to make it before Pennsic.

Dianne

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Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[Dianne and Greg]

- Original Message -
From: "Carolyn Kayta Barrows" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)


>
> >Does anyone else find a man in a well-fitted suit drop-dead sexy? Rarr!
>
> Men have to be a little on the thin side for a suit to look that
> good.  Suits bulk out the man with a good bathing-suit-physique, and he
> looks, well, bulky.

Oh, I dunno..I think it's a power thing, actually. And an expensive,
beautifully fitted suit speaks power very loudly.

I remember watching my dad leave for work, in a suit and tie and his
gorgeous long overcoat, and being very proud that my daddy was so handsome!
So maybe a suit speaks of security for me.

Dianne
>


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[h-cost] New Laughing Moon pattern!

[Five Rivers Chapmanry]

Just received word from my supplier last evening about a new Laughing Moon 
pattern. Very excited about this one and thought I'd share, as well as offer 
advance, discounted sale.


Early 1860s Day Dress

I know this pattern's going to be a hit, not only because of the consistent 
level of high quality, research, documentation, engineering, sewing 
instructions which are the hallmark of Laughing Moon patterns, but because 
this pattern includes three sleeve options, collar and undersleeves, as well 
as much more! Details about the pattern follow. Our normal retail on this 
pattern is $15.00CDN ($12.42US at today's exchange rate). On advance orders 
received until July 26 we're offering the pattern at $12.00CDN 
(approximately $10.00US). Anyone wishing to take advantage of this offer 
please note in your order 'Lorina's Special'. I'll catch that when I receive 
the order and be sure you receive your advance discount. But remember, 
discount only available until July 26!


To view the pattern go to: http://www.5rivers.org/en-gb/p_983.html .

View A is a copy of an extant period dress in the author's collection. Views 
B and C are copies of extant sleeves. Finished Length of Skirt is 42" in 
front and 45" in back. (Click on 'Click here for more product information' 
below for extra views.)


All Views have a two dart front bodice and a classic curved V, tucked back. 
The darts are boned. The front of the skirt is directionally knife pleated, 
the sides are box pleated and the back is cartridge pleated (gauged). The 
bodice, sleeves, and skirt are flat lined with polished cotton. The skirt 
has a pocket and is stitched to the bodice. The bodice has piping at the 
neck, armscyes and waist. View A has coat sleeves, View B has pagoda 
sleeves, and View C has pleated pagoda sleeves. Included are a 1 1/2 inch 
collar and plain undersleeves.


Sizes 6-26 included in same envelope.

Regards

Lorina

Five Rivers Chapmanry
historical sewing patterns; quality, hand-crafted cooperage; embroidery 
supplies, and more.

www.5rivers.org - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
519-799-5577

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Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[Kate M Bunting]

I particularly like the look of a three-piece suit (getting rarer these days).
 
Kate Bunting
Librarian and 17th century reenactor

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 13/07/2005 17:51 >>>


Does anyone else find a man in a well-fitted suit drop-dead sexy? Rarr!

Dianne
>
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Re: [h-cost] Re:Men in suits (was: Future ware(gloves)

[Carmen Beaudry]

Men have to be a little on the thin side for a suit to look that
good.  Suits bulk out the man with a good bathing-suit-physique, and he 
looks, well, bulky.



   CarolynKayta Barrows


I disagree.  I have yet to find a man, of whatever physique, who doesn't 
look good in a suit.  This includes a good friend who's at least 100 lbs 
overweight.


Melusine 


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Re: [h-cost] Re: Future ware(gloves)

[Carolyn Kayta Barrows]

Does anyone else find a man in a well-fitted suit drop-dead sexy? Rarr!


Men have to be a little on the thin side for a suit to look that 
good.  Suits bulk out the man with a good bathing-suit-physique, and he 
looks, well, bulky.



   CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
 www.FunStuft.com

  \\\
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