Re: [h-cost] Re: What periods for these fabrics?/17th c. linen outer garments
At 03:00 03/12/2005, you wrote: We've had some arguments on the 18cWoman list about dyed linen. There is definitely evidence for dyed linen being used for gowns, breeches, jackets, etc. in the 18th c., and these would obviously have been dyed with natural dyes. As for whether linen was/wasn't used for outer garments in Europe -- well, there is that linen 17th c. man's jacket that was found in the wall (chimney?) of a house. http://www.concealedgarments.org/information/links.html -- Mara Surely there is no problem with linen outer garments in the 17th century? On Thursday I was at the Museum of London again, where I was able to look at a linen bodice embroidered with blackwork, and previously I studied another, earlier bodice, also embroidered linen, from about 1610 - 20 Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Seam finishing on wool
Thank you Heather - your figures 9 to 12 and 19 through to 21 are most useful. Your figure 14 is essentially what I have done with the linen tunic - but it would be too bulky on the wool I have. I may use number 10 - it looks like the running stich is designed to be seen from the face as Sunny said in an earlier post. Jean I'd forgotton about the felting aspects - you are right we should wash wool only sparingly. Having said that I have a woollen cloak I only ever air and brush becaus it is simply too big to wash. On 03/12/05, Heather Rose Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 2, 2005, at 9:39 AM, Caroline wrote: I have just finished the long seams on a new 10th/11th century woollen tunic for my husband. In the past I would now switch on the zig zag and do the bits that are likely to fray with that. I've only ever hand sewn hems before (what the public can't see etc) However, I have just spent a month doing run and fell seams on a linen tunic and it would be nice to finish the woolly one also by hand. I have had a look at the York and London stiches and the main option seems to be to flatten the seam and put a running or whip stich up the seam allowance. The running version would I think leave two parallel lines on the front of the garment (either side of the seam) and the whip stich might leave a series of diagonal lines on the front. Does anyone have any other techniques they know about or have tried. I don't think run and fell is particularly aproproate the seam would probably be rather bulky. I'm not sure if this will work with the sewing you've already done, but when I was researching my article on seam types found on surviving textiles http://www.heatherrosejones.com/ archaeologicalsewing/index.html by far the standard wool seam treatment from the iron age through the medieval period seems to have been a fell-type seam. Often these seem to have been designed so that there was never more than three layers of fabric at any one point. But the diagrams at the article may give you some other inspirations. If the wool is fairly springy or has much of a nap, I wouldn't expect the stitches to show unless they're fairly big. On the other hand, you could always treat any visible stitching as a deliberate design element! Heather -- Heather Rose Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.heatherrosejones.com LJ:hrj ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Caroline ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] tissue paper
Hi, Rats- my dictionary stinks. It doesnt have the word tissue paper. Is this the same as Kitchen Rolls are made of? Because i got the advise to use this on hoop frames, when embroidering, cover the edge with this paper to protekt from dirt. Could i not just as well use a piece of calico, i have plenty of that. Bjarne who now are going to watch swedish television, they have a series of 17th century kingdom, where poor and rich chanllenges eachother. Rich has bathtubs, poor dont even have soap to wash.. Costumes are ok, but only one of the rich ladies gown fits propperly. It is so difficult to dress a lady in a rented dress with a low cut boatshape bust if it doesnt fit... Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] tissue paper
At 13:49 03/12/2005, you wrote: In a message dated 12/3/2005 8:02:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Because i got the advise to use this on hoop frames, when embroidering, cover the edge with this paper to protekt from dirt. Could i not just as well use a piece of calico, i have plenty of that Tissue paper is the thin paper used for wrapping gifts. I would think calico (what we Americans call muslin) would work just as well, if not better. Tissue paper isn't very sturdy and might tear before you were done with your work. You could also use plain cotton bias binding, as this is also less likely to tear than tissue. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: What periods for these fabrics?/17th c. linen outer garments
On Sat, 3 Dec 2005, Suzi Clarke wrote: As for whether linen was/wasn't used for outer garments in Europe -- well, there is that linen 17th c. man's jacket that was found in the wall (chimney?) of a house. http://www.concealedgarments.org/information/links.html -- Mara Surely there is no problem with linen outer garments in the 17th century? On Thursday I was at the Museum of London again, where I was able to look at a linen bodice embroidered with blackwork, and previously I studied another, earlier bodice, also embroidered linen, from about 1610 - 20 I don't think anyone has questioned the existence of linen outer garments from the 16th c. on. The only issue I'm aware of (and the one I summarized in response to the initial query) is whether colored linen was routinely used for the outer, visible layers of fashionable gowns in medieval Western Europe. However, whenever this subject comes up, there's a tendency for the thread to mutate to the point that some read the statement as somehow applying to (a) other times, (b) other places, (c) other garments, (d) the use of linen at all, or (e) the dyeing of linen for any purpose -- none of which should be at issue. Honest, folks, I wouldn't have brought it up if someone hadn't asked me directly why I wasn't intending to use my stash of brightly dyed linen for medieval clothing -- a very specific question and a very specific answer. And I'm still wondering when the strongly-dyed stuff would have become available and fashionable! I'm thinking that I'd better use the cranberry-colored length for a modern dress... --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: What periods for these fabrics?/17th c. linen outergarments
- Original Message - From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Honest, folks, I wouldn't have brought it up if someone hadn't asked me directly why I wasn't intending to use my stash of brightly dyed linen for medieval clothing -- a very specific question and a very specific answer. At least for me, the reason I responded with the info I gave was that, to me, this question implies that you see dyed linen as useless for _any_ part of medieval clothing, rather than just for outer layer stuff. If you remove the fabric from your stash, then you can't use it for the reasonably-documentable non-outer-layer uses. I hate to see anyone give up fabric that they could be using! -E House (Still hasn't figured out a way to reasonably dispose of the 10yr-50yr old cloth inherited from g'ma-in-law, which is ugly and smelly but has to be really useful to someone, somewhere) (The cloth, not the grandma.) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: christmas movies
My favorite is Miracle on 34th Street, although this year I am revisiting my childhood and watching all my favorite holiday specials with my children, who are really enjoying them. Last night was Santa Claus is Coming to Town. Earlier this week it was Rudolf. And coming up are Frosty, A Charlie Brown Christmas, and How the Grinch Stole Christmas. No costume content here. My daughter is begging me to buy her White Christmas, which I've never seen. Gail Finke PS: I remember the first time I saw Meet Me In St. Louis. I was so shocked by the Christmas song -- it was so sad!!! I can't hear it without thinking of the movie. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: What periods for these fabrics?/17th c. linen outergarments
On Sat, 3 Dec 2005, E House wrote: At least for me, the reason I responded with the info I gave was that, to me, this question implies that you see dyed linen as useless for _any_ part of medieval clothing, rather than just for outer layer stuff. If you remove the fabric from your stash, then you can't use it for the reasonably-documentable non-outer-layer uses. I hate to see anyone give up fabric that they could be using! Don't worry -- it's only the bright/deep colors I'm not inclined to use. I have a variety of blues, pinks, and peaches, all of which I would use for linings. In any case, the dyeing references you gave were nearly all 16th c., when there does seem to be a lot more use of linen as the visible layers, and thus presumably more inclination to dye it, though there's still the question of intensity and hue. The one that wasn't 16th c. was Italian, again a different culture than what I was talking about. All these are of interest in the general study of linen, certainly, but not much use for my own needs in this case. So, back to the assumption of a limited color palette for any dyed linen that was used in medieval garments. The colors you mentioned earlier (sky blue, brown, off-black), the blue lining in the Golden Gown, and the ones in the extant garments Heather points to (salmon, off-black) are consistent with that assumption. Which leaves me with 8-10 yards or so of screaming red linen, the same of forest green, three yards or so of cranberry... The black I will probably keep and try to wash/bleach down into something more greyish, which probably is not something I could buy. The cranberry might make a modern dress, or a suit... --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
On Saturday 03 December 2005 1:56 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote: [snip] It also strikes me that those descriptions don't rule out the possibility that the linen was used as a lining for the caftan or hanging dress respectively. (I keep forgetting what the current standard English term is for the not-an-apron dress.) You're right, they don't rule out that possibility. Though Hagg's analysis of some of the finds suggest that at least some caftans were lined with silk--a detail I've always found hard to accept in light of the evidence that silk was rare enough to be used for trim. I'm not sure there is a standard English term for the hanging dress. Most SCA types now call it an apron dress, for want of a better term. Some people borrow the modern Scandanavian terms hangerrock (sorry, I can't put in the proper diacritical marks) or traggerock. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] Physics is like sex; sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.--Richard Feynman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Medieval Gallery at the Museum of London re Photos
To all who were interested. The Museum of London allows photography in certain galleries, but not, of course, in the Medieval Gallery, which is what I had asked about. I might have been able to sneak a couple, but as I am a regular, I don't want to cause waves, and get told I cannot see stuff when I want to. So, I have a very bad drawing done of the stocking foot - bad as I don't understand what I was drawing - I don't knit stockings any more and have forgot all I knew. Anyone who wants a copy, please mail me off list, and I will scan and send. Incidentally, because of the angle of the cases when I tried to get an idea of size of the mitten, I could only get an approximation. It is roughly 4.5 from top to bottom, the vest is roughly 16 from shoulder to hem. Would you believe I forgot to measure the stocking foot? Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] name that garment
http://slumberland.org/moodle/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=864 I'd like to know the name of the dark grey/white piece on the woman in the second photo. It covers her head and shoulders. I'd be interested in making something similar for modern wear, but I have no idea what it's called in order to look for other examples and/or patterns. thanks! Denise B Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Costume movies
Hi, I am looking forwards to see Casanova, because its ben two long that we had an 18th century film last. This photo shows a bad pair of stays. I can se that it is not propperly boned, and why is it they almost always dont bone the tabs probberly. http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hvid=1808665919cf=pgphotoid=592785intl=us There was also a film i liked called The company of the Warewolf, or something like that. French but two bloody and two much fighting in it. Costumes are very nice though. Bjarne - Original Message - From: Dawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 2:59 AM Subject: [h-cost] Costume movies I was surfing http://movies.yahoo.com and noticed a few trailers for upcoming movies. _Pirates of the Caribbean 2_, of course. _Bloodrayne_, a fantasy vampire hunter movie, _Casanova_ 18th century Venice? Costumes look good, but it's not my period. _Memoirs of a Geisha_, visually appealing though it doesn't sound like the book I read. _The New World_, the Pocahantas movie. _The White Countess_ set in Shanghai in 1936, looks like a dramatic romance. All the trailers are up for viewing. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 772
In a message dated 12/3/2005 11:33:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: and yes I had noticed they rewrote the lyrics - irritates me every time I hear the new version Went hunting last night and was reminded that James Taylor's 2001 version is almost the original lyrics. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: What periods for these fabrics?/17th c. linen outergarments
Cranberry colored linen would go very well for a modern dress for you, given your coloring g, but if you just can't bring yourself to do it, feel free to send it to me! I would imagine that you'd have to coordinate several different tracks of thought--increased use of linen as outer garments, cross-referenced with times when strong, bright colors were fashionable, and then further refine it by the colors you own. I've got a whole bolt of pin-striped linen (black with narrow, white stripe) that I'm going to make into some sort of modern outfit some day. Just couldn't resist buying it, even though I had no (SCA) use for it. Ditto the bolt of linen with the mustard/gold background and 18th centuryish print on it that I got cheap. Might be okay for some 18th century stuff, but I don't *do* the 18th century! (lol!) --Sue - Original Message - From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: What periods for these fabrics?/17th c. linen outergarments And I'm still wondering when the strongly-dyed stuff would have become available and fashionable! I'm thinking that I'd better use the cranberry-colored length for a modern dress... --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
The terms I hear/see most often used for that item of clothing around here are either apron gown or apron dress. Apron gown more commonly. Interesting, isn't it? how some words transfer into English (like naalbinding), and others do not --Maire, off to knit a shawl and listen to the radio, while the snow comes down on the dark streets outside, and the cats sleep on the hearth rug. - Original Message - From: Catherine Olanich Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long) On Saturday 03 December 2005 1:56 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote: [snip] It also strikes me that those descriptions don't rule out the possibility that the linen was used as a lining for the caftan or hanging dress respectively. (I keep forgetting what the current standard English term is for the not-an-apron dress.) You're right, they don't rule out that possibility. Though Hagg's analysis of some of the finds suggest that at least some caftans were lined with silk--a detail I've always found hard to accept in light of the evidence that silk was rare enough to be used for trim. I'm not sure there is a standard English term for the hanging dress. Most SCA types now call it an apron dress, for want of a better term. Some people borrow the modern Scandanavian terms hangerrock (sorry, I can't put in the proper diacritical marks) or traggerock. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Medieval Gallery at the Museum of London re Photos
I definitely wouldn't want you to sneak photos on my behalf! But thanks for letting us know about the neat stuff they have. -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] previous messages
Just to say sorry, as I noticed when I got my last digest that I hadn't changed the titles - (sorry). See, like I said - head - screwed on! Debbie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] What periods for these fabrics? (long)
On Saturday 03 December 2005 8:21 pm, Sue Clemenger wrote: The terms I hear/see most often used for that item of clothing around here are either apron gown or apron dress. Apron gown more commonly. I never heard apron gown before, though it makes as much sense as anything else. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] Physics is like sex; sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.--Richard Feynman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: What periods for these fabrics?/17th c. linen outer garments
-Original Message- I don't think anyone has questioned the existence of linen outer garments from the 16th c. on. The only issue I'm aware of (and the one I summarized in response to the initial query) is whether colored linen was routinely used for the outer, visible layers of fashionable gowns in medieval Western Europe. However, whenever this subject comes up, there's a tendency for the thread to mutate to the point that some read the statement as somehow applying to (a) other times, (b) other places, (c) other garments, (d) the use of linen at all, or (e) the dyeing of linen for any purpose -- none of which should be at issue. Honest, folks, I wouldn't have brought it up if someone hadn't asked me directly why I wasn't intending to use my stash of brightly dyed linen for medieval clothing -- a very specific question and a very specific answer. And I'm still wondering when the strongly-dyed stuff would have become available and fashionable! I'm thinking that I'd better use the cranberry-colored length for a modern dress... --Robin I am glad that I asked why not. Though the issue wavers off the beaten path I have come to understand why you and some others do not use dyed linen for outerwear. My perspective is that linen degrades faster then wool and therefore is one of the reasons that extent garments made of linen have not been found yet in the Medieval Western Europe. You also have the garments used until rags and then sometimes became paper. Anyhow, this has been an interesting and informative discussion. Thank you, De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] name that garment
Hi! http://slumberland.org/moodle/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=864 I'd like to know the name of the dark grey/white piece on the woman in the second photo. It covers her head and shoulders. It's a hood, or medieval hood. Sometimes it's called a lirpipe (sp?) if there is a long tail hanging off the back of the head. Though that term mutates to mean a (usually man's) rolled hat with a tail hanging down. If you need a pattern Medieval Miscellanea has an easy one. If you want a very period pattern the pattern chapter of the Museum of London _Clothing and Textiles_ has one. Hope that helps! -sunny ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Survival of linen vs. wool, was RE: [h-cost] Re: What periods for these fabrics?/17th c. linen outer garments
At 07:36 PM 12/3/2005, you wrote: [snip] I am glad that I asked why not. Though the issue wavers off the beaten path I have come to understand why you and some others do not use dyed linen for outerwear. My perspective is that linen degrades faster then wool and therefore is one of the reasons that extent garments made of linen have not been found yet in the Medieval Western Europe. You also have the garments used until rags and then sometimes became paper. Anyhow, this has been an interesting and informative discussion. Thank you, De The issue is not that linen degrades faster than wool, but that the two fabrics survive under different conditions. What preserves wool (acidic conditions like the bog burials) literally dissolves linen; what preserves linen (basic, anaerobic conditions, like the Swiss lake deposits), destroys wool. About the only way both would survive would be to find them in extremely dry, arid conditions (which could be from a hot dry climate, like Egypt, or a cold dry climate, like Urumchi) or in frozen sites, like some of the fantastic sites in Mongolia (can't remember the names offhand, and the books have hidden themselves). Joan Jurancich [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: What periods for these fabrics?/back to medieval
On Sat, 3 Dec 2005, otsisto wrote: I am glad that I asked why not. Though the issue wavers off the beaten path I have come to understand why you and some others do not use dyed linen for outerwear. My perspective is that linen degrades faster then wool and therefore is one of the reasons that extent garments made of linen have not been found yet in the Medieval Western Europe. You also have the garments used until rags and then sometimes became paper. I wouldn't base the assumption just on the archaeological evidence, for exactly that reason -- not nearly enough scope of survivals to generalize about most things, not just this point. But the documentary evidence -- wills, inventories, sales records, domestic manuals, sumptuary laws, guild regulations, shipping records, letters, literature, poetry, chronicles, legal cases -- paint a pretty clear picture of what fibers are being made, sold, and used, and for what purposes. I place a lot of faith in these! There's loads of linen mentioned in these documents, but it generally appears in household and industrial uses, as well as very specific clothing uses such as underwear, caps, aprons, eccesiastical garments. References to fashionable/everyday clothing are overwhelmingly to wool, wool, wool (for all classes) and some silk (for the wealthy), and occasional blends that might have been part linen or cotton in cases, but otherwise wool or silk. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] linen
De wrote: My perspective is that linen degrades faster than wool and therefore is one of the reasons that extant garments made of linen have not been found yet in the Medieval Western Europe. I don't think that's true. Some of the oldest clothing in existence is linen from Egyptian tombs. Environmental conditions have more to do with whether a textile is preserved than the fiber it's made of. Kim _ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
