RE: [h-cost] Re: gambeson question

2005-12-25 Thread Wendy Colbert
Trigger started out as the proprietary name for a bottom weight poly cotton.  
It has gotten generalized in the same way as Klenex or Xerox.

Wendy Colbert
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukah


-Original Message-
From: Joan Jurancich [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Dec 24, 2005 10:55 PM
To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: gambeson question
Trigger is just a weight/weave definition.  It can be made of any 
fiber.  I've usually seen it in cotton.


Joan Jurancich
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

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[h-cost] Another mysterious gift giver

2005-12-25 Thread Helen Pinto
All I know about my partner is that the package originated in the 
Netherlands, so I'll just have to thank you here for the nice beads and 
pendants, and wish you all the best for the holidays.

   -Helen/Aidan

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RE: [h-cost] Re: gambeson question

2005-12-25 Thread otsisto
Thank you. This explains much. I also remember being told that Trigger was
better then Duck in keeping it's colors because it was Polyester (I guess
they should have said mostly polyester)

Thank you for the clarification.

De

-Original Message-
Trigger started out as the proprietary name for a bottom weight poly cotton.
It has gotten generalized in the same way as Klenex or Xerox.

Wendy Colbert
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukah


-Original Message-
Trigger is just a weight/weave definition.  It can be made of any
fiber.  I've usually seen it in cotton.
Joan Jurancich
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[h-cost] Re: gamby question

2005-12-25 Thread Debloughcostumes
ooh, finally a subject I could talk you into the ground on.

I make between 50 and a hundred bits of assorted padding a year.

First of all, depending on which bit of the 15th century you're talking 
about, it's so much more likely to be either a padded jack or an arming doublet 
than a gamby / acheton - gambesons really died out in the 14th century in 
favour 
of garments similar to the 'coat armour' (my term - nobody's yet agreed on a 
definitive name) of charles IV of france, which were worn over the armour.

The doublet (pourpoint) of charles de blois is often referred to as a piece 
of padded armour, but it's now generally accepted by most to be a civilian 
doublet that's padded to give it the necessary shape, and toughness to maintain 
its corset-like grip on the abdomen of the wearer.

At the end of the 14th century and start of the fifteenth, padding was all 
colours under the sun (green, red, blue and grey seem to have been the most 
popular - but yellows, oranges and assorted others can be seen in manuscript 
illustrations, and the coat armour of the black prince in canterbury cathedral 
has 
the royal arms on it in velvet).

These were gradually all dropped in favour of white for jacks - although 
arming doublets were still in colours - usually reds, blacks and greys.

There are numerous illustrations of later C15th jacks, most notably the st 
ursula triptych, by memling, which shows one straight quilted and one knotted 
(one of them also has arm chains, though I can't remember which offhand).  
jacks 
can be worn with no armour, or with partial armour (for full harness, you'd 
need an arming doublet, as the stresses are completely different).

there are quite a few references to padding at this time (late 14th - late 
15th) - including:
mention of 'northern soldiers' arriving in london during the wars of the 
roses, wearing jacks padded with flax, and another that mentions them being 
padded 
with 'tow'.
there's a sumptuary law, forbidding the jack makers from using 'rotten linen' 
(some unscrupulous non-guilded types methinks).
there are references in the clothing accounts of the black prince to fustian 
and 'cotton wool' (i.e. raw cotton fibre) being some of the materials used.
references from the french of rows of english archers in white (though it's 
not 100% clear whether this refers to a white english livery, or a jack).
a reference in the accounts of a polish count to the purchase of fustian, 
cotton and black velvet for the making of a padded coat - and chains to run 
down 
each quilted tube.
records of a booming cotton industry in southern germany.
entries in the records of the docks at plymouth receiving raw cotton in 
quantities that would fill containers today.
records of padding all the way through the middle ages being soaked for weeks 
in assorted liquids to make it stronger / waterproof / more resistant to 
archery and  swordblows (including oil, vinegar, wine, fish oil (they must have 
truly stunk to high heaven!!)).
references to coverings of rich material or leathers (including deerhide, and 
deerhide soaked in various stuffs (as an aside, the chinese used 
rhinoceros)).
obviously, the london guild was the company of tailors and linen armourers - 
thereby indicating that linen was the most frequently used material

as to existing examples, I've already mentioned the two charles's padding, 
and the black prince's - there's also the rothwell jack, and the one in a 
collection at the met. (although they're now both believed to be 16th century - 
as 
are the fencing doublets in edinburgh and nurnburg).  and of course, the lubeck 
and stendahl jacks, which are all mid 15th. 

the most interesting (because they're made for 'ordinary' people) are the 
lubeck jacks, which are made in fustian and cotton, and painted with some sort 
of 
black stuff (no one is sure what it is or why it's there, and it could have 
been added at any point in time - one can't be certain when).

although the construction techniques and materials may have varied (silks and 
velvet outer layers for the rich, and fustian or flax for the poor, and 
different paddings - raw cotton, raw flax, tow, straw, raw wool, recycled 
ripped up 
cloth, layers of cloth (looseweave fustian or flax) - most of the existing 
garments I've mentioned, are made in exactly the same way, the only variation 
being the material of the outer layer.  (I should reiterate that the lubeck / 
stendahl ones are soldiers jacks, not rich ones.)

they're made up as two sandwiches - an outer one and a lining one, and using 
fustian with cotton padding.  The inner layer is fustian, (raw) cotton, 
fustian, and the outer is fustian, (raw) cotton, fustian, and outer layer 
(either 
more fustian or something richer).  The two sandwiches are made up as 
completely 
separate garments, each sandwich quilted through individually, using 
incredibly small stitches, and sewn together only around the edges when 
finishing 
them.  

I can't comment on