Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
-- "david webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: As a proud Canadian, "standing on guard for thee", trusty ally to Britain and the U.S. in peace and war, etc. etc. yadda, yadda, I winced a bit at the reference to the "Canadian outfit " (which makes it sound as if the local cowboys, hunting lodge or wedding videotapers had a go at it);-). No offense meant to our Neighbors Ta Da Nort', eh! I just couldn't remember the correct name as I was typing. And since I come from Chicago, calling stuff an 'outfit' just seems to come naturally. 8-) The National Research Council Canada which particpated in this exercise has been around for a long time and is fairly reputable scientific organization. They have cooperated with NASA and the Canadarm, if I recall correctly. Granted, they may know richard-all about costume quirks of fecund women during Leonardo's period, but it was one of the French collaborators that made that claim. I have no doubt that the tech is spot on and that they have found what they say they have found. However, since I have a more than passing interest in historic costume and am reasonably familiar with Renaissance clothing yet have never encountered something that was specifically indicative of about-to and just-given birth, I thought I'd toss that out to the list whose collective wisdom on matters of historic costume is always impressive. It just smells like a Costume Myth to me.but I could be wrong Karen Seamstrix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Sheridan, It is wonderful the Canadians have this technology. Big kudos! It makes me wonderful what is under the vanish, dirt, and such so many other paintings. Penny Ladnier, Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com www.costumelibrary.com www.costumeclassroom.com www.costumeencyclopedia.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
As a proud Canadian, "standing on guard for thee", trusty ally to Britain and the U.S. in peace and war, etc. etc. yadda, yadda, I winced a bit at the reference to the "Canadian outfit " (which makes it sound as if the local cowboys, hunting lodge or wedding videotapers had a go at it);-). http://iit-iti.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/projects-projets/monalisa-lajoconde_e.html The National Research Council Canada which particpated in this exercise has been around for a long time and is fairly reputable scientific organization. They have cooperated with NASA and the Canadarm, if I recall correctly. Granted, they may know richard-all about costume quirks of fecund women during Leonardo's period, but it was one of the French collaborators that made that claim. A brief blurb: NRC-IIT is dedicated to R&D in software and systems technologies. The Institute is a key player in R&D collaborations and partnerships in information and telecommunications technologies with business, universities and government agencies, in Canada and around the world. NRC-IIT conducts scientific research, develops technology, creates knowledge and supports innovation with the aim of having a beneficial and profound impact on Canadian society. NRC-IIT blends the long-term vision inherent in leading-edge science with a capacity to adapt to emerging S&T issues and priorities. The maple leaf forever.. (sung offkey and forgetting half the words) Sheridan Alder - Original Message - From: "Dawn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa > Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote: > > > Don't know of this, but if true, could be for privacy/modesty during > > nursing. Just a thought. > > > > > > If they're describing it as a " gauzy, nearly transparent layer over her > dress" then I doubt it was worn for modesty. > > > > Dawn > > > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
I think the main problem is that we are so used to seeing paintings that have been air-brushed in media. There are plenty of painting, textiles, costumes, that have been in private and institutional collections that have lost so much in detail lost to grime or aging process. I recall being so disappointed with seeing a very popular painting in a museum. It was so cracked that it looked nothing like what we know it as. Someone had to tell me what it was and I sat for 30 minutes looking at it. The controversy among our field of interest, historic costume is to restore or not. And if chosen to restore, is the funding and expertise available. A very big dealer told me recently concerning restoration... that either costume dies a quick death if the restoration fails. If you have succeeded and saved its life, the costume will shine its glory for several more generations to learn from. I have recently been dabbling in restoration. I talked with several people as how to go about it. I can't tell you how rewarding it is to bring something back to life! I am working with items that I call the ICU of costumes. One of my long term goals is to learn beading and work on some of the 1920s dresses or what were once dresses. I want to piece to them together for the beading patterns and document them. I am doing this at my own expensive. Universities don't budget for these things or think that the beading patterns of an era or important except if they belonged to a famous person. But I know the beauty of the designs are there. And I am learning a new skill One of my restoration projects is a 19th Century bonnet of thin netting and pineapple straw. The straw lace has held up wonderfully but the netting is gone on one half of the bonnet. I have looked and looked at this bonnet and I think I can really save it. When I took it out of the box, it was all meshed together. It took a while to get it untangled. But it will be an interesting challenge for me. Penny Ladnier, Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com www.costumelibrary.com www.costumeclassroom.com www.costumeencyclopedia.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote: Don't know of this, but if true, could be for privacy/modesty during nursing. Just a thought. If they're describing it as a " gauzy, nearly transparent layer over her dress" then I doubt it was worn for modesty. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Glenda Robinson wrote: Not my period either, but I find it amusing they've had to use intensive laser scanning to detect something I (and I suppose most others here) could see just by looking at a photograph in a book. I never realised 'no-one' had seen it. It's quite obvious around her hairline. They're not talking about the veil on her head. They are claiming to have discovered a gauzy veil over her clothing, it's been called an 'overdress' in a few of the articles. It's so transparently painted that it's disappeared under the layer of varnish and grime on the canvas. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Not my period either, but I find it amusing they've had to use intensive laser scanning to detect something I (and I suppose most others here) could see just by looking at a photograph in a book. I never realised 'no-one' had seen it. It's quite obvious around her hairline. Glenda. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Don't know of this, but if true, could be for privacy/modesty during nursing. Just a thought. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dawn Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:05 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > IN the last day or so, there have been a number of reports on the > intensive laser scan that a Canadian outfit is doing on DaVinci's Mona Lisa. In addition to a number of other new information, they are saying that they have detected a gauze veil on her head that they are claiming demonstrates that she had just given birth. > I don't know about the symbology of the veil they are talking about, but the reports are saying it was placed over her dress, not on her head. There's also talk of a 'bonnet'. I've copied a few quotes below, from several articles, there seems to be some variation in what's being reported and quoted. Dawn The NRC study discovered, under dark varnish, a previously unseen gauzy, veil-like cloth hanging from the bodice of Mona Lisa's dress. Such a garment was common in Renaissance Italy for women who had recently given birth, French and Canadian scientists said during a news conference yesterday at NRC headquarters. Dark varnish had also made invisible a newly discovered small bonnet worn on the back part of Mona Lisa's head. The bonnet peeks through the varnish only with the aid of the NRC's high-tech laser vision. "Thanks to laser scanning, we were able to uncover the very fine gauze veil Mona Lisa was wearing on her dress. This was something typical for either soon-to-be or new mothers at the time," Michel Menu, research director of the French Museums' Center for Research and Restoration, said on LCI television. It said other details obscured by darkened paint and varnish included the hair originally being in a bun and a slightly different posture, as well as the gauze dress. "This type of gauze dress ... was typical of the kind worn in early 16th Century Italy by women who were pregnant or who had just given birth," said Bruno Mottin of the French Museums' Center for Research and Restoration. Using infrared technology that allowed them to see more clearly beneath dark varnish, the scientists found that Leonardo da Vinci's model had a gauzy, nearly transparent layer over her dress that was typically worn by pregnant women of the time, or mothers who had recently given birth. The model for Mona Lisa was Lisa Gherardini, the wife of Francesco del Giocondo, a Florentine cloth merchant. The discovery of the filmy garment, sewn to her dress at the shoulders, means the painting was commissioned to celebrate the birth of her third child, also found that in addition to her veil, Mona Lisa was wearing a dark bonnet which cannot be seen under the layer of varnish. It was applied long after Leonardo da Vinci died, ... ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Bad historical costume movies
Try www.vermontcountrystore.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sylvia Rognstad Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:29 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bad historical costume movies That's pretty close, except they don't seem to make them small enough for some of my actresses. Thanks. Sylrog On Sep 26, 2006, at 11:59 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Is this what you're interested in? > http://www.orchardcorset.com/Merchant2/p_G204.html > > I also recommend a look around the rest of the site as there are many > other similar styles to choose from. > > Karen > Seamstrix > > -- Sylvia Rognstad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Speaking of lift and separate bras, does anyone know if Playtex still > makes those? I need some 50s looking bras and the closest I could > find the last time I was looking was the Playtex variety. > > Sylrog > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A question about "when" (was Bad historical costumemovies)
Leah L Watts wrote: Not a historical show, but back when the original Star Trek was going into initial production the male cast members announced they were NOT going to have their hair restyled to something "futuristic" -- the final compromise was to reshape their sideburns. That's _Star Trek XXXIX: The Final Compromise_. -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Deadwood
On Sep 27, 2006, at 11:42, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're obviously not a Victorian. Neither are the *Americans* in "Deadwood". :-P What's funny is that the rancher I quoted, Teddy Blue Abbot, was English. Real name: Edward Charles Abbott. The nickname has something to do with a hooker, but I don't know the story. I agree with your observation of the men's clothe. Like I said before, I find it all a little over designed. The prostitutes look great though! Yeah. A few of the real ones were good looking, too. They usually went under the title of "actress" or "singer". Ed Walton Walton & Taylor Mercantile http://www.waltontaylor.com 972-690-1945 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Deadwood
At 12:42 PM -0400 9/27/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 9/27/2006 11:55:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You're obviously not a Victorian. Neither are the *Americans* in "Deadwood". :-P "Victorian" values and culture were not limited to the UK or even the British empire, and the term is not unreasonably applied to the entire Anglophone world for the relevant period, whether under the rule of Victoria or not, especially when discussing such things as social mores (and, of course, houses -- I'm not sure there are any Victorian houses in the UK, in the sense of the particular housing design style known as Victorian, but there are tons in the US). And, of course, the evidence cited to support the Victorian comment were clearly American in origin -- so whether you call the period "Victorian" or not, the point that in that period even in the American West they didn't normally cuss, even in whore houses, stands. (Our modern ideas about cussing are, like everything else in our culture, modern, and there is no particular reason to expect the attitudes toward and practice of cussing to have been the same in the past as it is now.) Sharon -- Sharon Krossa, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Need help with technology for your research or teaching? Hire me! http://MedievalScotland.org/hireme/ Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more: Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A question about "when" (was Bad historical costumemovies)
> Hollywood and History mention this phenomenon. Hair is almost > always wrong, > again most commonly upon the female lead. The reasons for this are > also > similiar to the reasons given for costumes, including the insistance > of the > Actors themselves. Not a historical show, but back when the original Star Trek was going into initial production the male cast members announced they were NOT going to have their hair restyled to something "futuristic" -- the final compromise was to reshape their sideburns. Leah ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: A question about "when"
Albert cat wrote Hairstyles are usually what gives things away. Even today. 30 years from now, all the films we think are accurate, will look like that were made "at the turn of the century" to future viewers. I'll bet you hair is gonna be one [of many] clues for them to point out.<< Emma Thompson kept a journal for "Premiere" magazine during the filming of "Remains of the Day," which is set in late 1930s England. After a lot of thought and experimentation, the hairdressers decided that the best way to make the hairstyles look authentic was to do them in the original way. This meant for ET that once her hair was set, she wasn't allowed to wash it for a week at a time, something that she found unpleasant. Laura Dickerson ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Deadwood
In a message dated 9/27/2006 11:55:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You're obviously not a Victorian. Neither are the *Americans* in "Deadwood". :-P I agree with your observation of the men's clothe. Like I said before, I find it all a little over designed. The prostitutes look great though! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Deadwood
On Sep 25, 2006, at 12:20, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's nuts! I don't understand being offended by language...in a whore house. ___ You're obviously not a Victorian. Whorehouses often had signs banning the use of profanity on the premises, according to first hand accounts and photographs of sporting house interiors. You might be there to enjoy the "French Girl Show", but you better not cuss while doing so. In 1876, using language like that heard on the Deadwood show would get you killed very quickly. Teddy Blue Abbott, a longtime Montana cowboy and rancher (1870's -90's) stated in 1939 when he was 80 yrs old: "... six-shooters were a great thing for keeping the peace. You wouldn't have any of this calling names and brawling and fighting, where every man was wearing a deadly weapon in plain sight. And as for that expression about a son of a bitch, I never heard it 'said with a smile', as they say, before the nineties. In the early days men were soft-spoken and respectful to each other, because it didn't pay to be anything else. It's not like that now." Things in the west were quick and to the point. Notice that rude language and its consequences came up as an aside in a discussion of firearms and their uses. Calling somebody a bastard or sob was a death challenge. The mores of the time would have demanded instant terminal action directed at anyone calling a man a "c*cks*cker" (one of Deadwood's favorites) and probably all his associates, plus burning his body. Concerning the men's costumes, styles depicted on this show range from about 1855 to 1900, with a heavy emphasis on the 1880's. Pretty bad, but better than most. Ed Walton Walton & Taylor Mercantile http://www.waltontaylor.com 972-690-1945 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IN the last day or so, there have been a number of reports on the intensive laser scan that a Canadian outfit is doing on DaVinci's Mona Lisa. In addition to a number of other new information, they are saying that they have detected a gauze veil on her head that they are claiming demonstrates that she had just given birth. I don't know about the symbology of the veil they are talking about, but the reports are saying it was placed over her dress, not on her head. There's also talk of a 'bonnet'. I've copied a few quotes below, from several articles, there seems to be some variation in what's being reported and quoted. Dawn The NRC study discovered, under dark varnish, a previously unseen gauzy, veil-like cloth hanging from the bodice of Mona Lisa's dress. Such a garment was common in Renaissance Italy for women who had recently given birth, French and Canadian scientists said during a news conference yesterday at NRC headquarters. Dark varnish had also made invisible a newly discovered small bonnet worn on the back part of Mona Lisa's head. The bonnet peeks through the varnish only with the aid of the NRC's high-tech laser vision. "Thanks to laser scanning, we were able to uncover the very fine gauze veil Mona Lisa was wearing on her dress. This was something typical for either soon-to-be or new mothers at the time," Michel Menu, research director of the French Museums' Center for Research and Restoration, said on LCI television. It said other details obscured by darkened paint and varnish included the hair originally being in a bun and a slightly different posture, as well as the gauze dress. "This type of gauze dress ... was typical of the kind worn in early 16th Century Italy by women who were pregnant or who had just given birth," said Bruno Mottin of the French Museums' Center for Research and Restoration. Using infrared technology that allowed them to see more clearly beneath dark varnish, the scientists found that Leonardo da Vinci's model had a gauzy, nearly transparent layer over her dress that was typically worn by pregnant women of the time, or mothers who had recently given birth. The model for Mona Lisa was Lisa Gherardini, the wife of Francesco del Giocondo, a Florentine cloth merchant. The discovery of the filmy garment, sewn to her dress at the shoulders, means the painting was commissioned to celebrate the birth of her third child, also found that in addition to her veil, Mona Lisa was wearing a dark bonnet which cannot be seen under the layer of varnish. It was applied long after Leonardo da Vinci died, ... ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Mona Lisa
IN the last day or so, there have been a number of reports on the intensive laser scan that a Canadian outfit is doing on DaVinci's Mona Lisa. In addition to a number of other new information, they are saying that they have detected a gauze veil on her head that they are claiming demonstrates that she had just given birth. They are saying that this gauze veil was something that was typically worn by women who were either pregnant or had just given birth. I'll be the first one to admit that Italian Ren isn't my area of expertise, but as far as I know a gauze veil was simply a common headcovering for women at that time. Does anybody on the list have any definitive information on the social significance of gauze veils in Renaissance Italy? To me, this smacks of yet another Costume Myth, but one with a significant impact due to this report. Karen Seamstrix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
