[h-cost] Re: Perpignan cloth

[Kathy Page]

Hi Beth,

A... you've just saved me a bunch of headaches and time consumption. I am 
stronger in French than I am in Italian! So the reference only occurs in text 
outside of direct cloth manufacture, hmm. That's annoying.
Gar. This French book only shows up in a couple of libraries around here, all 
of which charge for the ILL. hmm.. unless I convince a local to U of T to snag 
it for me and make a copy. My husband is fully bilingual, I can bribe him to at 
least look up the indexes for me and see if the references are any good.
Darn! And I was hoping to solve my issues with something easy!

Gee... I wonder if contacting a museum in Perpignan might prove fruitful? I 
wonder if they have something like that. *goes googling*
Aha. I think I may have something. The village indeed does have museums (these 
are the divisions most likely to have information useful to us):


  Musée 
des Beaux-Arts Hyacinthe Rigaud

16, rue de l'Ange

66000 PERPIGNAN

Tél : 04 68 35 81 23

Mél : [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Peinture 

  Musée 
du Castillet Casa Pairal

Place de Verdun 

66000 PERPIGNAN

Tél : 04 68 35 42 05

Arts et traditions populaires

  
  Musée 
archéologique de Ruscino

(en cours de création)

Centre Archéologique de Ruscino

Château Roussillon

66000 PERPIGNAN

Tél : 04 68 67 47 17

Site archéologique


I'll have to wait until hub is awake and in a mood to be coerced into helping 
me to brew up a contact email. We can hope they know what we are talking about, 
or at least something that helps clear up just what this stuff really is.


Onto a new adventure...

Kathy
 

Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or 
barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert
(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. 
It’s never too late to be who you might have been.
-George Eliot
Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. 
http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131

that Frick references regarding this but, while useful, it's focus is 
on trade and economics and I could find no hint of the weave 
structure. I also attempted to contact Dr. Frick (she teaches at a 
University in Oklahoma.. the next state over) as to why she used the 
term "jersey" to describe it but never received a reply.

The only other book that I have that mentions (in a textile context) 
Perpignan is

Cardon, Dominique. La draperie au Moyen Age: essor d'une grande 
industrie europe enne. Paris: CNRS Ed, 1999. ISBN: 227105592X  OCLC: 50663845

As I am seriously weak in French, this is proving very slow going for me.








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[h-cost] Re: Perpginan cloth

[Kathy Page]

Wel. yeah. although I have found a vanishingly small collection of wool 
jersey cloth out there, mostly vintage or British in origin, that *almost* 
looks like it could be woven. Very fine, mind, but that also lends itself to 
the difficulty of establishing its structure. 
The term jersey, according to the OEM, lists it to 1583, referring to knitted 
cloth. So, I suspect her terminology could be an issue. Knitting in this 
context really wasn't that popular as far back as the reference she makes - 
IIRC, the 1100's or so. 

Kathy
 
Ermine, a lion rampant tail nowed gules charged on the shoulder with a rose Or 
barbed, seeded, slipped and leaved vert
(Fieldless) On a rose Or barbed vert a lion's head erased gules. 
It’s never too late to be who you might have been.
-George Eliot
Tosach eólais imchomarc. - Questioning is the beginning of knowledge. 
http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/131

I thought "jersey" was by definition a knit or looped fabric?   I could see 
developing a strechy fabric using over twisted wool or some other technique, 
but I think if it's woven, it's not jersey.








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Re: [h-cost] Question about early 19th century underclothing.

[Elizabeth Walpole]

- Original Message - 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "h-costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 3:03 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Question about early 19th century underclothing.



Hi,  I have been asked to create an under dress for this gown for the 
Phoenix Art Museum. 
http://www.coraginsburg.com/catalogues/2004/cat2004pg10&11.htm
As you can see, it is pictured with a white under dress.  My questions are 
the following.


Would there be a difference between an under dress (it doesn't look as 
though it was ever lined) and an actual chemise?
I was thinking perhaps someone would wear a simple chemise, then perhaps a 
corset, and then the under dress, and finally a dress?


I am creating the under dress on a Kyoto dress form, which is solid.  The 
dress fits it, but the breasts are rather large compared to the rest of the 
dummy and the only way I can get it to fit properly is to either create 
darts or gather it under the breasts. Would the under dress be tailored 
like the dress?  (I have Arnold's patterns of fashion of this period and 
have ordered Hunisett's book for the same time frame to see if it has any 
further clues.)


If there were an under dress, would it necessarily have been white and not 
a similar color to the gown?



Thanks for pointers you can give me.



Saragrace Knauf


I would suggest a bodiced petticoat over the chemise and corset, you can see 
one costumer's version here 
http://www.koshka-the-cat.com/regency_underthings.html and instructions to 
make a bust supporting variety here 
http://www.sensibility.com/pattern/petticoat.htm and a photo of a real 
original petticoat in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, collection 
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2quokm

Elizabeth

Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/

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[h-cost] measurement chart site?

[Kiloran]

Can an body recommend a website where I can find a form of some kind 
that shows all the various body measurements you'd need to take of a 
person if you were going to make clothing or garb for them? I know the 
standard ones (bust, waist, etc.) but I'd really like to find a detailed 
chart that I can use.

Julie
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Re: [h-cost] Somewhat OT -- Black detergent?

[Lavolta Press]

My advice is:

Always wash the clothes in 100% cold water, and

If they are cotton or linen or rayon, in other words 100% cellulose 
fiber, re-dye them black using Procion MX dye from someplace like Dharma 
Trading (www.dharmatrading.com), following the directions given. Except, 
for washer dyeing in my washer (it holds 15 or 16 gallons) I have found 
that I need precisely twice as much dye as the amount stated, which 
seems to be calculated for vat dyeing. The quantity of water used really 
does count, even if the directions only mention the weight of the fabric 
to be dyed.


Rit is a less fast dye than Procion and, IMO, no easier to use.

Procion dye does not stain the washer at all. The laundry 
products--which may be weak solutions of dark dye, I have never tried 
them--probably will not either, as the companies that manufacture such 
products test them extensively for consumer feedback.  Also, I think 
coloring the kind of materials your washer is made of requires entirely 
different chemicals than textile fibers.


If your clothes are silk or wool, Dharma and similar suppliers sell 
other home dyes, which I have not tried, for protein fibers.


If the clothes are entirely or partly synthetic, as far as home dyeing 
goes you may be out of luck. However, there are dry cleaners who provide 
re-dyeing services, and perhaps they will dye synthetics for you. I 
don't know.


If this is a big problem, you might in future consider slanting your 
purchases towards 100% cotton which is the easiest fiber to dye, IMO. 
Rayon takes dye very well but is less sturdy in my experience, and can 
be problematic for machine dyeing.  Silk also takes dye well but I'd 
hesitate to machine dye some silks. Can't say I've had any real 
experience with dyeing silks though.


Fran
Lavolta Press Books on Vintage Clothing
http://www.lavoltapress.com

Lauren Walker wrote:


Hi,
A couple of the laundry soap companies now offer products recommended  
for dark-colored clothes. The liquids appear to actually be dark- 
colored themselves. I wear a lot of black, and it fades. I am  wondering 
if anybody has used any of these products, and if they help  restore 
dark colors or just mimimize fading, or if, perhaps they do  not do 
anything at all? Also, did it stain the washer or anything?


In the 18th C and perhaps other times, they was a whole service in  
redying black stuff, a function now mostly covered by Rit. I was just  
wondering about the effectiveness of these soap things, if anybody's  
had experience.

Thanks.
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [h-cost] Perpignan cloth

[Beth and Bob Matney]

Hi Kathy,

I ran into this about a year or so ago from the same source and 
couldn't find out any more info on it. I have a copy of


Hoshino, Hidetoshi. L'arte della lana in Firenze nel basso Medioevo: 
il commercio della lana e il mercato dei panni fiorentini nei secoli 
XIII-XV. Biblioteca storica toscana, 21. Firenze: L.S. Olschki, 1980. 
ISBN: 889568 OCLC: 7530060


that Frick references regarding this but, while useful, it's focus is 
on trade and economics and I could find no hint of the weave 
structure. I also attempted to contact Dr. Frick (she teaches at a 
University in Oklahoma.. the next state over) as to why she used the 
term "jersey" to describe it but never received a reply.


The only other book that I have that mentions (in a textile context) 
Perpignan is


Cardon, Dominique. La draperie au Moyen Age: essor d'une grande 
industrie europe enne. Paris: CNRS Ed, 1999. ISBN: 227105592X  OCLC: 50663845


As I am seriously weak in French, this is proving very slow going for me.

Beth


Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:07:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kathy Page <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

I have just been flipping through Dressing Renaissance Florence, and 
they mention "hosiery itself was made of perpignan cloth 
(perpignano), a washable and stretchy woolen jersey fabric, 
originally developed by weavers in Perpignan, France."
Has anyone ever heard of this stuff before, and if so, what is its' 
weave structure? What would it be close to in modern terms? This 
answers a lot of questions why Italian men's hose are so smooth and 
tight looking. If I can find a reasonable equivalent, it will make 
my job MUCH easier on this commission that I have been stalled on for so long.


Kathy


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[h-cost] book review wanted: Shaker Textile Arts

[Leah L Watts]

I'm looking for information on Shaker clothing, ideally around the time
of the Great Awakening (1800-1830).  I was searching Amazon and found the
book Shaker Textile Arts, by Beverly Gordon.  It looks like it will have
the information I need, but it's also $30 -- does anyone have this book? 
Is it worth the money?

Leah
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[h-cost] weirdish terminology question

[E House]

I'm going to spend a while fishing through Google's book search, and since I've 
already found a surprising amount of results from books that quote wills, 
inventories, wardrobe accounts, etc, I have a slightly odd request of the list. 
 I'm trying to think of good Ye Olde Englishe key words that will help me find 
these, like 'velwet' and 'vellat' and 'velvett.'

Can anyone help me think of properly spellt English (sticking with that for 
now) costume terms from say, 1100-1650,  that seem likely to result in wardrobe 
accounts, inventories, wills, etc?

-E House
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Re: [h-cost] Looking for wide velcro

[LLOYD MITCHELL]

You might see if your local cobbler might have some of the wider width 
velcro he could part with. Some keep this on hand for various mending 
projects.


Kathleen
- Original Message - 
From: "Sharon Collier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "'Historical Costume'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 5:50 PM
Subject: RE: [h-cost] Looking for wide velcro



Can you make it yourself by sewing 1" strips together side by side?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michelle Plumb
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 7:34 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] Looking for wide velcro


Does anyone have any idea where I can get my hands on some large velcro?
 I need a piece about 4"x12", and so far I've only found stores that
sell it by the 25 yard roll.

Thanks,
Michelle
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[h-cost] Question about early 19th century underclothing.

[Saragrace Knauf]

Hi,  I have been asked to create an under dress for this gown for the Phoenix 
Art Museum. 
http://www.coraginsburg.com/catalogues/2004/cat2004pg10&11.htm

As you can see, it is pictured with a white under dress.  My questions are the 
following.

Would there be a difference between an under dress (it doesn't look as though 
it was ever lined) and an actual chemise? 
I was thinking perhaps someone would wear a simple chemise, then perhaps a 
corset, and then the under dress, and finally a dress?



I am creating the under dress on a Kyoto dress form, which is solid.  The dress 
fits it, but the breasts are rather large compared to the rest of the dummy and 
the only way I can get it to fit properly is to either create darts or gather 
it under the breasts. Would the under dress be tailored like the dress?  (I 
have Arnold's patterns of fashion of this period and have ordered Hunisett's 
book for the same time frame to see if it has any further clues.)

If there were an under dress, would it necessarily have been white and not a 
similar color to the gown?

Thanks for pointers you can give me. 

Saragrace Knauf

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Re: [h-cost] Split drawer pattern online?

[Elizabeth Walpole]

- Original Message - 
From: "Saragrace Knauf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "h-costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 2:48 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Split drawer pattern online?


There used to be a split drawer's drafting pattern/instruction online, 
which I cannot,  for the life of me, find again.
As I recall, it was something like Mrs. Clarks pattern (it was a simple 
name, could have been Brown, Smith etc)



Anyone know where it is or have a copy of it?



Thanks,



Sg


I assume you mean the instructions from Elizabeth Stewart Clark this is her 
dressmaking articles page 
http://www.elizabethstewartclark.com/GAMC/FP/index.htm


Elizabeth Walpole
Canberra Australia
ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/

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[h-cost] Somewhat OT -- Black detergent?

[Lauren Walker]

Hi,
A couple of the laundry soap companies now offer products recommended  
for dark-colored clothes. The liquids appear to actually be dark- 
colored themselves. I wear a lot of black, and it fades. I am  
wondering if anybody has used any of these products, and if they help  
restore dark colors or just mimimize fading, or if, perhaps they do  
not do anything at all? Also, did it stain the washer or anything?


In the 18th C and perhaps other times, they was a whole service in  
redying black stuff, a function now mostly covered by Rit. I was just  
wondering about the effectiveness of these soap things, if anybody's  
had experience.

Thanks.
Lauren
Lauren M. Walker
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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