Re: [h-cost] Stockings and Charity Sewing

[Carol Kocian]

Yeah, the idea of charity sewing adds another dimension…

The situation, theoretically, is a female relative visiting (cousin, maybe), 
with no problem for others to darn stockings or socks in her presence, but not 
expecting her to work on the immediate family’s old holey socks.

Rather than cutting a hole for her to mend, I think having charity sewing 
projects around would mean she could have worked on that. If it would be the 
norm to have projects like that in the basket, seems it would be preferred. Or, 
she could be working a new item, like making a shirt or shift.

Something done with new stockings is “running in” the heels. Researcher Steve 
Rayner found a Cuthbertson reference from 1768: …"running them in the heels 
will strengthen them exceedingly, therefore every Soldier should learn that 
piece of oeconomy, as well as to mend his stockings, it being very praise 
worthy, besides saving him a constant expence.”

Run-in heel reinforcements are something I’ve seen in extant early 19thC 
stockings, but before the above info I didn’t know how early we had it 
documented. (Pre Rev War, Yay!!!)

S, coming back around to the original story: If the relative could work on 
new stockings but not old ones, I think she could have done the heel 
reinforcements (running-in). Unless, by later eras, the running-in was part of 
the finishing done before you would buy the stockings.

Maybe I’ll never find the source of the “cutting a hole” story, but it would be 
nice to know if it was from real experience or not.

Thanks!
-Carol



> On Dec 21, 2015, at 7:45 PM, Elena House  wrote:
> 
> (snip)
> 
> My first thought was that it was historical fiction, but not necessarily
> modern historical fiction, if that makes sense.  It could have been written
> say in the middle of the 20th century, when this practice might possibly
> have occurred to someone--or it could be a result of the earlier pulp
> fiction years, and possibly written by a male (who wouldn't know this
> didn't sound quite right) under a female pen name.
> 
> My second thought was that from what I'm thinking is the original post, by
> Carol, I couldn't really tell what era this was supposed to be, or what
> class the young woman/women were supposed to belong to.  Surely there would
> be a class divide between those who are socially expected to do 'pretty'
> work to show off their accomplishments, and those who would feel they were
> impressing the people they wanted to impress more by showing off their
> usefulness...?  A middle-upper class family's daughter in say, 1880s NYC
> would certainly sew different things when a guest was there than a farming
> family's daughter in Ohio in the 1940s would.
> 
> I still find the idea of cutting a hole in NEW stocking a bit of a stretch,
> but if it were a plot point in an
> Isn't-Our-Heroine-Just-Too-Angelic-For-Words type of 1910s young adult
> pulp, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find myself reading about it; it
> sounds like the kind of story meant to show off someone's virtue.
> 
> -E House
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Marjorie Wilser  wrote:
> 
>> I vote for fiction. It seems wrong on so many levels. You don’t “cut a
>> hole" in a (new!) stocking to darn. You cut a thread and let it ravel a
>> little. In that day, I suspect making ANY kind of hole would never have
>> happened. You wouldn’t destroy new goods for any reason, much less to make
>> busy work.
>> 
>> However, the very idea of them darning stockings in a social setting is
>> suspect. It just wouldn’t be done in polite circles. Wish I could help on
>> the reference.
>> 
>> ==Marjorie Wilser
>> 
>> @..@   @..@   @..@
>> Three Toad Press
>> http://3toad.blogspot.com/
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 18, 2015, at 2:05 PM, aqua...@patriot.net wrote:
>>> 
>>> A young woman is visiting a household with other young women, and they
>> are
>>> darning some stockings. It would not be proper to give her one of the
>>> family's stockings to mend, so they cut a hole in a new stocking for her
>>> to darn.
>>> 
>>> The whole idea seems silly to me, because it seems that there would be
>>> some new clothing to be made or something for her to do that would not
>>> require making busy work. That's why it sounds more like historical
>>> fiction.
>>> 
>>> Does it sound familiar to anyone?
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> -Carol
>> 
>> 
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[h-cost] Is h-costume still going?

[Carol Kocian]

Hi all,

Is h-costume still going? I’m trying to change my e-mail address for it, but 
the link below does not work. 

Thanks!
-Carol



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[h-cost] Fwd: h-costume on facebook?

[Carol Kocian]

Forwarding, thanks Susan!

 Begin forwarded message:
 
 For some reason the list won't let me email it today.  Can you forward this 
 to the list for me?  Thanks, Susan
 
 
  Forwarded Message 
 Subject: Re: [h-cost] h-costume on facebook?
 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 12:26:14 -0400
 From: Susan B Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com
 To: h-costume@mail.indra.com
 
 On 8/30/2015 9:38 AM, Genie wrote:
 
 Many of the groups on FB are closed/invitation only, or you request to be 
 added.
 
 there are options if you don't want to set up an open group.
 
 FB doesn't have to be a black hole.
 
 
 I'm one of the Admin for this group
 
 https://www.facebook.com/groups/PeriodCostuming/
 
 It's probably the closest thing to this list that *I* know of that
 already exists.
 
 If I can't tell you're a costumer, you need to send me a PM to let me
 know.  No direct sales are allowed, and no harvesting of the member list
 for PM spam messages -- either of those will get you removed and banned
 in a heartbeat.
 
 Come on over!
 
 Susan
 -- 
 Susan B. Farmer
 sfar...@goldsword.com
 Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College
 College of Science and Math
 http://www.abac.edu/academics/schools/math-science/faculty-staff/sfarmer
 http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium
 


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Re: [h-cost] h-costume on facebook?

[Carol Kocian]

It is, and they seem to fit the criteria of an all-era group. Unless they limit 
membership to the Greater Bay Area?

I think the person asking (on facebook) wanted to see if there was a group 
already established before starting her own. There are a lot with a specific 
era of focus.

-Carol


 On Aug 30, 2015, at 10:35 AM, costumrs costu...@radiks.net wrote:
 
 I believe that is the FB page for the Greater Bay Area Costumers Guild. 
 Sandy
 
 
 Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
 
 div Original message /divdivFrom: Wicked Frau 
 wickedf...@gmail.com /divdivDate:08/29/2015  2:41 PM  (GMT-06:00) 
 /divdivTo: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com /divdivSubject: 
 Re: [h-cost] h-costume on facebook? /divdiv
 /divThat is the official facebook page for this list?  I never knew there 
 was
 one.
 
 On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Cin cinbar...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Yes, https://www.facebook.com/groups/gbacg/ and each Guild event often has
 it's own FB event announcement.
 
 --cin
 Cynthia Barnes
 
 On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Carol Kocian aqua...@patriot.net
 wrote:
 
 Does h-costume have a presence on facebook? Someone was just asking for
 an
 all-era sewing group, not just for patterns, not just for challenges,
 but a
 place to discuss and ask questions.
 
 Thanks!
 -Carol
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 -- 
 -Sg-
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[h-cost] h-costume on facebook?

[Carol Kocian]

Does h-costume have a presence on facebook? Someone was just asking for an 
all-era sewing group, not just for patterns, not just for challenges, but a 
place to discuss and ask questions.

Thanks!
-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] h-costume on facebook?

[Carol Kocian]

I think she was addressing the all-era sewing group” part of it. 

Thank you! 

Any other suggestions are useful, whether affiliated with h-costume or not.

-Carol


 On Aug 29, 2015, at 3:41 PM, Wicked Frau wickedf...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 That is the official facebook page for this list?  I never knew there was
 one.
 
 On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Cin cinbar...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Yes, https://www.facebook.com/groups/gbacg/ and each Guild event often has
 it's own FB event announcement.
 
 --cin
 Cynthia Barnes
 
 On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Carol Kocian aqua...@patriot.net
 wrote:
 
 Does h-costume have a presence on facebook? Someone was just asking for
 an
 all-era sewing group, not just for patterns, not just for challenges,
 but a
 place to discuss and ask questions.
 
 Thanks!
 -Carol
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 -- 
 -Sg-
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Re: [h-cost] Pomona Green: vote now!

[Carol Kocian]

I like this one the best. Hope, can you get fabric from this source?

-Carol


On Jan 15, 2015, at 4:42 PM, Beteena Paradise bete...@mostlymedieval.com 
wrote:

 I always envisioned Pomona Green to be more like this color. But that is just 
 from my own mind's forming and not really grounded in any kind of fact or 
 anything. :) 
 http://www.bangkokthaisilk.com/lime-green-100-authentic-silk-fabric/
  Teena 
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[h-cost] New Orleans

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 14, 2015, at 6:29 AM, annbw...@aol.com wrote:

 Just got back from New Orleans, where we celebrated the 200th anniversary of 
 the last major battle of the War of 1812. In addition to battlefield 
 activities, I attended a ball at the Presbytere and a victory dinner at 
 Antoine's. I think I have actually had enough of wearing period attire for a 
 while!
 
 Ann Wass



I would like to hear more about this! New Orleans is costume-oriented anyway 
with Mardi Gras, so how did others react to the reenactors?

I was there in September on a business trip, and some tour guides, promoters, 
and shop salespeople tend to dress in historic, fantasy or goth styles.

-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] New Orleans

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 15, 2015, at 12:43 AM, Penny Ladnier pe...@costumegallery.com wrote:

 About the NPS not allowing reenactments...I have been following the NPS 
 reenactments since June for the 150th Siege of the Petersburg.  There were 
 reenactors at all the events.  I have been to all of their events.  



National Park Service will host/allow reenactors, including demonstrations of 
firing weapons. What they don’t allow are actual battle reenactments. 

-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] searching for a graphed pattern

[Carol Kocian]

I found this:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/6388262?selectedversion=NBD7528686

for the late 18th/early 19thC patterns.

This
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/6388322?selectedversion=NBD7528701
is the 1830s/1840s patterns. I have that one, must be around here somewhere…

There were three, and the first link is two of them.

They’re just listings, though, no pictures.

-Carol


On Dec 4, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Cascio Michael rosen...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Hello the list, 
  Years ago either AlterYears or Amazon Vinegar Pickling Dry Goods carried 
 a set of graphed dress patterns from, I think, the Royal Ontario Museum.  My 
 Google-fu is failing me so I can't find a reference to them on-line.. If 
 anyone has these or remembers what I'm talking about could you let me know.  
 I think there were 3 different time periods so I'd like to know what they 
 were before I spend hours trying to find them through WorldCat.
   
  
 Casssandra
 
 
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Re: [h-cost] searching for a graphed pattern

[Carol Kocian]

Here’s an Etsy listing with an image, but it’s sold.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/115404544/rare-dress-patterns-pattern-diagrams-for



I found this:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/6388262?selectedversion=NBD7528686

for the late 18th/early 19thC patterns.

This
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/6388322?selectedversion=NBD7528701
is the 1830s/1840s patterns. I have that one, must be around here somewhere…

There were three, and the first link is two of them.

They’re just listings, though, no pictures.

-Carol


On Dec 4, 2014, at 9:47 PM, Cascio Michael rosen...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Hello the list, 
 Years ago either AlterYears or Amazon Vinegar Pickling Dry Goods carried 
 a set of graphed dress patterns from, I think, the Royal Ontario Museum.  My 
 Google-fu is failing me so I can't find a reference to them on-line.. If 
 anyone has these or remembers what I'm talking about could you let me know.  
 I think there were 3 different time periods so I'd like to know what they 
 were before I spend hours trying to find them through WorldCat.
   
 Casssandra
 
 
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[h-cost] Ribbon end treatment, was Re: fiddly question

[Carol Kocian]

I remember someone doing a survey of images, just not sure if it was 18thC or 
Regency. I remember the conclusion being the swallowtail cut — a V-shaped cut. 
That way the cuts are 45 degrees and you have two points on the outside edges. 
If it frays, then clean up the cuts and add fray check, as Ann suggested.

-Carol


 I'm making a couple of Regency bonnets, with satin ribbons as ties. How do 
 you finish off the end of the ribbon? Hem it? Cut it, and if so, how? Such a 
 minor detail, but I'm stumped.
 Thanks,
 Julie


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Re: [h-cost] Boning and corsets for musicians

[Carol Kocian]

On Oct 21, 2013, at 5:15 AM, michaeljdeib...@gmail.com wrote:
Elastic panels could help bit perhaps adapting the style would be  
better. A mesh or sports corset might provide enough give while  
also providing enough support for the period.


The problem there, though, is that the gown worn over a corset does  
not have any give to it. The corset creates a smooth line for the  
gown to fit. If the corset stretches, the gown would also need a  
stretch section or a pleat to handle it. Is there a 19thC version of  
a Watteau back for a gown?


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] RE; Where to buy lucet?

[Carol Kocian]

On Jun 18, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Charlene C wrote:

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Marjorie Wilser  
the3t...@gmail.com wrote:


Minor comment on lucets in general. I find the handled ones less  
easy to carry around, because they don't fit into a needlework bag  
as well. I think the main thing the handle is good for is spinning  
the lucet around while working, but I've never missed having one  
and don't think it a necessary feature.



I use the style without a handle. The base rotates in the palm of  
my hand quite comfortably. I had to try a few before I found the  
right shape for my hand.


--Charlene



It was suggested to me that the cord could be wrapped around the  
handle as you work. But I realized I had to unwrap and rewrap as it  
got longer. For me it's not about the handle so much as the shape of  
the tines. I like them flared a bit so the work does not fall off  
easily. Also nice and smooth, but if there is a problem there you can  
fix it with sandpaper.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Question re a future family heirloom (hopefully)

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Lynlee,

It sounds like a beautiful project!

Churches are different as far as how traditional or conservative they  
expect everyone to be. The best answer would come from the clergy of  
the church where he will be Christened. Otherwise you'll just get  
opinions of people based on their own background.  :-)


-Carol


On Apr 19, 2013, at 8:19 PM, lynlee o wrote:

Not fully costume related, but I would love some ideas from you  
all. I have been asked to make my Grandson a Christening Gown :).  
He will be about 18 months old and it is to be held near a rock  
pool. For anyone who has seen the film Whale Rider, it is this  
area of NZ!I have been asked to make it represent his heritage  
(Maori and Kiwi-Irish). I was thinking about smocking the yoke with  
maori patterns evoking the sea and a whales tail (which is the  
local motif) and a hem showing the family crests as small repeat  
motifs like an embroidered border. I don't attend church and have  
no idea what is current/traditional. How much colour is used? Can I  
use full colour, very muted tones or is it supposed to be white and  
cream? As he will be toddling, would a long jacket over a suit with  
trousers be a good idea? Many thanks in advance. Lynlee 		 	   		

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Re: [h-cost] Easy way to get a hand sewn T-Tunic (Lavolta Press)

[Carol Kocian]

On Mar 30, 2013, at 8:04 AM, . . wrote:

Also, in the Victorian age, they loved doing exactly what you are  
doing - taking antique dresses and outfits to wear to fancy balls.   
Do you have any idea how many we lost during that time period?
How many not only Rococo but Elizabethan outfits?   Just because  
someone wanted to look pretty and was incapable of thinking about  
the historic value of the item in their hands.


There was also a practice, I think it was called drizzling, where  
they would take old medieval fabrics or embroideries and pick out the  
metal, gold and silver, to melt down.


-Carol

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[h-cost] Reusing antiques, was: Easy way to get a hand sewn T-Tunic (Lavolta Press)

[Carol Kocian]

I remember a discussion between a vintage clothing dealer and mostly- 
museum-folks at a Costume Society meeting. The vintage dealer is  
looking for things in wearable condition, and anything else goes into  
the rag bag.


But you never know what you have in the attic. Her rags could be a  
rare example that could be conserved, preserved and displayed.


When someone has a large diamond, they know what they have and know  
the risks of cutting it. With textiles, not so much. They are so much  
easier to damage or destroy. It's worth a reminder to people that you  
are interested — especially if you know someone else will get to  
great-grandmother's attic first!


-Carol


On Mar 29, 2013, at 9:36 PM, Sybella wrote:

Oh no...please don't feel I'm putting you in the place to defend  
yourself.
I'm not judging you, Fran. I agree that people can do what they  
want with
what they own but there are a few things that I wish people would  
leave

alone.

(The Wittelsbach Diamond, for example -- 400 years went down the  
toilet in

2011.)

However, those that have responded to this thread seem to fall in  
different
areas of a save or reuse spectrum. I find that interesting!  
Compared to

Isabella's outrage, you're on the other extreme.

I'm just curious if there is anything sacred to you, any certain  
item

that should be saved, not reused or recycled. If so, what is it?? ;)



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Re: [h-cost] Looking for a billet in Williamsburg (or nearby)

[Carol Kocian]

John and Cathy Millar are 18th century dancers who have a beautiful BB:
http://www.newporthousebb.com/

Their house is a repro 18th century style, walkable to the historic  
area, and they have a ballroom and weekly dances.


-Carol


On Mar 23, 2013, at 7:39 AM, Aylwen Gardiner-Garden wrote:


Dear Friends
I am travelling to Williamsburg, VA and staying from 26 May to 5  
June to
attend a workshop and am looking for a kind non-smoking soul nearby  
to host

me. Can anyone on this list help me?
Many thanks,
Aylwen


*Aylwen Gardiner-Garden*


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[h-cost] Met Museum catalogs

[Carol Kocian]

This was just posted on the Living History Forum,

http://www.metmuseum.org/research/metpublications

The Metropolitan Museum of Art has exhibit catalogs available to read  
online. I was just looking over the Age of Napoleon.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Puts the burden where it belongs!

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Ginni and Joan,

The articles are regarding Orthodox Jews who complain about women's  
immodest dress. The solution is for them to wear blurring glasses.


There is a common sp*m going around, links supposedly sent by  
friends. It does help to have some lead-in from the sender, so we can  
trust the links (and the e-mail) are real!


-Carol


On Sep 20, 2012, at 9:18 PM, Ginni Morgan wrote:

I don't click on bare links without at least a short explanation of  
where they're going or what they're about, so I agree with Joan on  
this.  What are they?


Ginni Morgan


Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.com 9/20/12 4:34 PM 

Did you read the articles?  Or the link titles?

Fran
Lavolta Press
www.lavoltapress.com


On 9/20/2012 4:18 PM, Joan Jurancich wrote:

At 08:26 PM 9/16/2012, you wrote:

http://www.freakonomics.com/2012/09/07/modesty-glasses/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/08/ultra-orthodox-jews- 
blurry-glasses_n_1757338.html



http://www.modestyglasses.com/index.html

Fran
Lavolta Press
www.lavoltapress.com
www.facebook.com/LavoltaPress


What in the world are these links about?


Joan Jurancich
joa...@surewest.net

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Re: [h-cost] Walking feet

[Carol Kocian]

On Sep 21, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:

My question is this:  I hand baste all my seams before sewing them  
and therefore, have never needed a walking foot.  Does anyone here  
get any better use of walking feet than basting?  (The walking foot  
is one I did not buy.) If so, for what?



I got a walking foot when I machine-quilted something. The batting  
changes the game entirely — even with a light spray adhesive to  
baste the layers together, the loft of the batting will still let  
the top  bottom layers shift.


If I was going to hand-baste the quilt first, I might as well hand- 
quilt it. With a walking foot I can go freestyle with the stitching.


It depends on the level of accuracy desired — some people are ok with  
machine quilting on a historic garment that would have been done by  
hand. I assume there are 19th and 20th C garments that were  
originally machine quilted.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Hair and Reenacting

[Carol Kocian]

I took a class at Colonial Williamsburg where they taught the basic  
techniques of wigmaking. We learned how to weave the hair onto  
strings, and the strings of hair would eventually be sewn onto the  
wig base. It was interesting to learn, but I doubt I would make an  
entire wig.


I think the various hair-donation charities say it takes eight  
ponytails to make a wig. I would assume, then, that one set of plaits  
would not be enough. You could use them as plaits or switches, though.


-Carol



-Original Message-
From: Sharon Phillips vintagealternat...@gmail.com
To: h-costume h-cost...@indra.com
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2012 11:57 pm
Subject: [h-cost] Hair and Reenacting


I would like some ideas on hair pieces and wigs as I now have short  
hair

again and I have no real idea myself. My hair is maybe a centimetre or
two long at the back and for part of the sides and, about 7 cm or 8 cm
long on the top part. I also have dark red henna in it so all in  
all my

hair looks modern. I need to come up  with some kind of solution for
reenacting. I'm mostly interested in 15th and 16th centuries, and
regency. I was wondering what the list would suggest for solutions for
covering up the hair and achieving period hairstyles.

I did keep my plaits when they where cut off. They reached they bottom
of my ribcage(plaited) and were cut off halfway between shoulder and
head. The hair is in good condition and was never dyed, chemically
treated or the like. I never even used a hairdryer or straightener on
it.The plaits also weigh over 160 grams so there is quite a bit of  
hair

there. I'm wondering if it would be worth talking to a wigmaker and
seeing if they are able to make something with this either wig or hair
pieces. I'm  wondering if anybody on the list has done something
similiar or knows anything about the subject

Sharon Phillips


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Re: [h-cost] historical costume books

[Carol Kocian]

If the goal is to get the most money possible, I would think Ebay is  
the best approach. I believe you can have a minimum or a reserve so a  
book does not sell for less than the usual value. There is  
information on the Ebay site that explains how the minimums or  
reserves can be set.


Half.com is a good place to look for the same book to see what they  
are selling for. Half.com is the non-auction side of Ebay, where  
items are listed for a set price. Amazon is kind of iffy as a price  
information resource — some sellers use a program to set the price  
and it can rise to a ridiculous amount, way over the current value.


When you are ready to list the items on Ebay (or whatever sales venue  
you choose), drop a note on H-costume and any other discussion list  
where it would be relevant. You want to let people know to go look  
for it, but be mindful of the sales policies of the various lists.  
Also keep in mind the time of year, when people will spend money and  
when they won't have as much. Some will spend more on a Christmas  
present, or they might have received money as a gift or later in the  
spring as a tax return. But for certain valuable books, if someone  
wants it they will find a way!


-Carol


On Jul 25, 2012, at 1:53 AM, Franchesca Havas wrote:

The Maney Publishing copy published in 1988 is the more valuable  
copy. I
have both copies, this one and the 2001 republication. The paper  
quality is
better in the older publication and the images are sharper and  
deeper in

color than the 2001 copy.

The  2001 is currently being sold for anywhere from 100 to 118. The  
1988

copy sells for anywhere from 250 to 300.

Franchesca


-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Sharon Collier
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:16 PM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: Re: [h-cost] historical costume books

Which year is the more valuable, and why?
Sharon C.

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Franchesca Havas
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:36 PM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: Re: [h-cost] historical costume books

You have two books that I immediately recognize to be very hot  
items to put
on eBay. QEWU (make sure to post what printing year it is, one is  
worth

twice the other) and Renaissance Dress in Italy. :)

Franchesca


-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Sharon Zakhour
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 6:14 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] historical costume books

I don't have a full catalog, but I have some nice books that have been
barely used.  I haven't researched/figured out prices yet.  But  
here are

some:

Outcasts: Vol I by Ruth Mellinkoff
Outcasts: Vol 2 by Ruth Mellinkoff
The Hermitage, Leningrad: Gothic  Renaissance Tapestries Late Gothic
Europe, 1400-1500 by Margaret Scott Textiles and Clothing 1150-1450 by
Elisabeth Crowfoot (et al) Renaissance Dress in Italy 1400-1500 by
Jacqueline Herald Medieval Tapestries by Cavallo The Art of  
Embroidery by
Marie Schette The English Icon by Roy Strong Queen Elizabeth's  
Wardrobe

Unlock'd

I have many others and many that cover more modern eras.  But this  
may be

the most interesting list to folks on this forum.



On 7/24/12 5:56 PM, Sharon Collier wrote:

Here. (grin) What have you got?
Sharon C.

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com]

On Behalf Of Sharon Zakhour
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 1:30 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] historical costume books

I have been a long time lurker on this forum.  :)

I need to raise some money and want to sell off some historical
costuming books.  Other than ebay, is there a good place to sell  
books of

this type?


Thanks.
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Re: [h-cost] Boning for Edwardian/Titanic Era dresses

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Rachael,

Sometimes there was a bit of boning in the gown, as well. Even with a  
corset, the gown could ride up. Generally it was still whalebone,  
split into thinner widths.


Plastic featherboning is supposed to mimic actual feather shafts used  
for boning. I heard that from a friend but don't have any actual  
source. Anyway, the featherboning should be enough to keep the gown  
seams smooth, it's just not enough support for a corset. Rigilene is  
another light stiffener that will work, and is flatter that  
featherboning. Something else that works in a pinch is horsehair  
braid — I use one piece as a base, and stretch another piece to  
zigzag on top of it. The ends have to be tucked into fabric, though,  
or else those little nylon strands will poke.


The good news is, you can add the seam boning after the gown is made,  
so you can try it on first to see if you need it.


-Carol


On Jul 20, 2012, at 3:54 AM, Rachel Stimson wrote:


I am making myself a version of a 1909 Directoire dress to go to my
sisters wedding in and the pattern calls for the bodice to be  
boned.  I

was going to wear a corset underneath, partly becuase it is so much
easier to stand up for long periods of time, do I still need to bone?

Does anyone know what boning was used in the originals?

Thanks
Rachel



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Re: [h-cost] Grrrrr ... !

[Carol Kocian]

On May 16, 2012, at 5:58 PM, Patricia Dunham wrote:

oh, and my DH's theory that the MOST POPULAR items are highly  
likely to get dropped, because it's so much bother re-stocking the  
popular stuff all the time... customers keep buying and emptying  
the shelves, so we have to work harder to keep these items in stock  
-- nah, let's drop 'em  save ourselves the work and when some  
national corp. giant buys out your local chain and replaces LOCAL  
products with house-brand stuff from wherever they are home-based.


I think you've nailed it there, they stock more and more of what is  
cheaper to source. Meanwhile, the specialty items like powdered  
starch don't move as fast. If people can get it from an internet  
source, why bother taking up shelf space?


-Carol

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Re: [h-cost] Narrow linen for a shift

[Carol Kocian]

On May 16, 2012, at 3:07 PM, Martha Kelly wrote:

The narrow linen of original shifts has an amazingly tiny and  
perfect selvage - less than 1/8.  When the seams are run by hand  
just inside that selvage, it's a thing of beauty and a joy  
forever.  It's impossible to reproduce exactly unless someone these  
days is weaving such linen.  If they exist, I want to know about them!


Martha



Yes, we're so used to thick selvedges these days. Modern power looms  
cut each thread as it is woven, sometimes tucked in for a smooth (but  
thick) selvedge and sometimes a fuzzy/fringey selvedge. Hand-woven  
fabrics just have the thread going back and forth, so there is no  
thick, unusable part of the fabric. And it won't shrink more than the  
rest of the fabric, either!


I agree that the shift is much better off with felled seams. Cut off  
the bad selvedge and then it won't matter that the fabric was woven  
at 60 and split to 30. And definitely use linen instead of cotton.  
Linen bedsheets are great in any temperature, too.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Corset class recommendations

[Carol Kocian]

On Feb 7, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Franchesca wrote:

It is definitely worth discussing the different corsets made, give  
an overall difference, then let the students change their minds  
later if they want to make one or the other.




I agree with Franchesca. If students decide to make different kinds  
of corsets, it will also be a learning experience for everyone.


It's nice to be able to make something useful for yourself, but isn't  
the point of a class to learn the techniques? Is this a theater  
costume class? In that case, if a student does not want a corset can  
he or she donate it to the department?


If there is a class making something I don't want, I would not take  
the class. If, on the other hand, the class is required for a major,  
then it doesn't matter who ends up owning the corset. I think it  
would be worth keeping as a portfolio piece.


I also had thoughts similar to Sharon's, making a corset for someone  
else for sale. In addition, they'll learn how to work with a client.


Regarding fabric, I would also suggest that the students pitch in for  
corset coutil for the base layers of the corsets, and individually  
provide the fabric they want for the outer layer. Coutil isn't always  
available at the local fabric store.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] artificial whalebone

[Carol Kocian]

On Nov 29, 2011, at 7:31 PM, cc2010m...@cs.com wrote:


In a message dated 11/17/2011 1:00:47 PM Central Standard Time,
h-costume-requ...@indra.com writes:

Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:24:16 -0500
From: Natalie natali...@gmail.com

Someone suggested to me once that cutting strips from a milk jug  
makes
wonderful boning for smaller projects, like dolls. I haven't had  
time to

test it myself, but it seems like a pretty good idea. You can always
double up on layers if you need it a bit stiffer too.

Natalie


I don't know about milk jug plastic and corsets, but I do know that  
milk
jug plastic is just the thing to cut a collar stay replacement on a  
man's

shirt.

Henry W. Osier
President, Armed Costumers Guild
On Staff for TeslaCon 3 in 2012, Chicon 7 in 2012, and Chicago  
TARDIS 2012




I've heard of using bleach bottle plastic for corset boning — bleach  
bottles being sturdier than milk jugs. The lighter plastic boning  
(like featherboning or Rigilene) may not provide enough support,  
depending on the size of the person, how much support her figure  
needs. That and comfort are not an issue for a doll, of course. The  
problem is, corsets are a lot of work and some of those boning ideas  
will require some experimentation.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Plastic stays for Doll Costume

[Carol Kocian]

There's not much risk of tearing, since a doll won't move. You could  
use the metal on its own. Maybe even cut up paperclip or hairpins.


-Carol


On Nov 30, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Sharon Collier wrote:


What about thin metal, encased in hot glue to prevent fabric tearing?
Sharon

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 3:01 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Plastic stays for Doll Costume

Having had my fun with hot glue, I say: no, too soft. For it to be  
rigid
enough, it would have to be thick, and that makes it not very good  
as a

stay.


Claudine


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Re: [h-cost] Not tying your bonnet strings ?

[Carol Kocian]

Interesting — in 18thC reenactment, I heard that you did not tie  
anything under your chin unless you had a chin to hide. I don't know  
if it came from an 18thC source, because various folksy things are  
shared in reenactment.


-Carol


On Nov 13, 2011, at 5:04 PM, Linda Walton wrote:

As the list is so quiet, I'll take this opportunity to raise a  
point that has always puzzled me, and hope that it will not be off  
topic.


My great-grandmother lived in the North of England, (north  
Lancashire), at the end of the Victorian era, and I know very  
little about her, except that she was considered a very proud woman  
because she wouldn't tie her bonnet strings.


It's bothered me all my life, and of course I should have asked my  
older relatives, but I've left it too late now, and they are all gone.


So:  can anyone explain what that was about?

Awaiting all suggestions with interest,
Linda Walton,
(in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, U.K.).
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[h-cost] New 18th century list

[Carol Kocian]

Please forgive the cross post — I know some H-Costume members are  
interested in the 18th century.  :-)


We are pleased to announce the formation of
18cLife, a new list for 18th century reenactors, living historians,
researchers, and other interested parties.  We are reenactors and
historians, and we are excited to create a forum which we think will
be fun, interesting, welcoming, educational, and useful.

The subject of the list is how people lived in the 18th century, and
examining and reliving the 18th century through reenacting, living
history, and other means.  We intend to focus on areas where the
dominant culture was Western: not just the American colonies and
Britain, but all of Europe.

This list will have a broad scope: everything from basic reenacting
how-tos, to obsessive stitch counting, to finding out what events
are happening when and who's going, to serious academic research, to
the meaning of what we do as reenactors and living historians and why
we do it.  We like the synergy that comes from bringing together a
broad range of people to discuss a common interest.  We are looking
forward to forming a new community amongst reenactors and other 18c
enthusiasts and are eager to discover what the future will bring.
Please join us!
-Carol Kocian

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/18cLife/


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Re: [h-cost] 70's prom dresses

[Carol Kocian]

There are usually photos of the events through the year, which  
includes the proms and any other dances. My yearbook would definitely  
work as a source like that. The formal portraits for seniors did have  
the draped velvet, but there were plenty of other photos in the book.


-Carol


On Oct 5, 2011, at 6:49 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:

Yearbooks might, or might not, do any good.  When the girls'  
yearbook photos were taken at my high school, they merely draped  
our busts with a piece of velvet; we did not wear our prom gowns or  
anything like that.



--
Cathy Raymond
ca...@thyrsus.com


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Re: [h-cost] Miss Universe 2011 national costumes

[Carol Kocian]

Great links, thank you! The Telegraph has a second set of 2011  
costume pix.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/8753493/ 
More-Miss-Universe-2011-national-costumes.html


It's a far cry from the quasi-historic things they used to do. I like  
how many of them seem to be Carnival costumes.


-Carol


On Sep 12, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Cin wrote:


Check out the ridiculous national costumes from this year's Miss
Universe pagent: http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/62603630.html
There are other websites with a small selection of pics, but this LJ
entry has lots  lots.  Its possible that you'll need an LJ handle to
see them all.

If you'd rather had just a small set that's not on LJ, here's the
Telegraph's gallery.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/8749932/ 
Miss-Universe-2011-national-costumes.html



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Re: [h-cost] a question about passementerie

[Carol Kocian]

On Sep 12, 2011, at 8:16 PM, annbw...@aol.com wrote:

I haven't ever tried this, but I read years ago about a designer  
who actually buries the ends of the trims in the fabric--bascially  
using them like giant threads and pulling the ends through to the  
wrong side.


Ann Wass




Kenneth King has a technique where he separates the elements at the  
end and does various things with them — spirals, squiggles, etc. And  
he did pull the end of each element through the fabric, too.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Scaled drawings of original garments

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Natalie,

The overhead projector is one option.

The other is to use paper with a grid on it. Drafting supplies may  
have it, sometimes sewing supplies, or in desperate states you can  
draw your own grid on the large paper.


The patterns in the books may or may not have grids on them. In the  
book, you can draw the grid in pencil or photocopy the page and draw  
the grid on the copy. Beware the units of measure, the book may have  
centimeters but if you have inch paper, you'll need to adjust.


Here comes the tedious part: label the pattern page and your grid  
paper with the alphabet in one direction and numbers in the other.  
Now you have the squares as A-1, A-2, B-1, B-2 etc. Whatever is in  
A-1 of the pattern gets drawn into A-1 of your paper, and on and on.  
If the pattern has a straight edge, you can plot the points and draw  
the line with a yard stick.


It is also possible to use the enlargement settings on a copier. This  
can get even more tedious, and copier settings are not necessarily  
true to size. These days, you can also scan the pattern out of the  
book and enlarge it in your computer. The grid method is what we did  
before people tended to have computers and scanners at home. :-)  The  
computer enlargement is then printed onto several pieces of paper and  
taped together. As long as you are not distributing the scans in any  
way, you can make as many copies or printouts as you want.


The next task is to adjust the pattern to the size of the person who  
will wear the garment. You might do some of this in your scaling, if  
the original garment was made for a smaller person.


I'm sure the class will have techniques and tips beyond this, but  
that's the gist of it.


-Carol


On Aug 10, 2011, at 1:13 PM, Natalie wrote:


Are you planning to broadcast via webcam so I can attend? :D

I've not attempted to do this yet, and the only way I could imagine  
how to do it was put it on an overhead projector. I'm sure that's  
not what was intended.


Natalie


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Re: [h-cost] Scaled drawings of original garments

[Carol Kocian]

Blanche Payne has scale drawings of patterns. Her History of Costume  
book is where I first started back in college.  :-)


Norah Waugh's books: Corsets  Crinolines, Cut of Men's Clothes and  
Cut of Women's Clothes all have scale patterns, too.


Are you looking strictly for drafts taken from garments? Or are you  
looking for any pattern that is printed small and intended to be  
scaled up? I think Hunnisett's have been adjusted to make them easier  
to fit, whereas Arnold's are truer to the original garments. Are you  
just teaching the scaling, or also teaching how to fit from one body  
to another?


-Carol


On Aug 8, 2011, at 12:48 PM, Maggie Halberg wrote:

I'm teaching a workshop on how to scale up patterns of original  
garments that have been drawn out such as the ones you see from  
Janet Arnold.  I'm trying to compile a lit of sources for these  
patterns.  Other than the usual suspects of Janet Arnold and Jean  
Hunnisette does anyone have any sources for these types of patterns?


  Maggie Halberg


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Re: [h-cost] Where is everyone hanging out these days?

[Carol Kocian]

Hmmn, looks like I joined by 1997. That's the earliest year of H-cost  
saved messages I can find, and I may have joined earlier. Joining H- 
costume was one of the first things I did after getting an e-mail  
address at work. ;-)


When did Penny compile the directory of H-costume members? I was  
around for that.


Regarding the SCA, I've seen this on the Historic Knit list, too —  
Some SCA people will discuss things in terms of whether they are  
period, meaning do they fall within the time period covered by the  
SCA. Presuming a majority of SCA members, they won't say SCA period  
or (even more helpful) before 1600. Or before 1650, whichever is  
preferred.  :-)


Even in a more focused list such as 18cWoman, it helps to state the  
decade, country and social class. Plenty of things were around in  
the 18th century but that does not make them right for a Rev War  
camp follower.


We've learned quite a lot through the years, not only to be specific  
with the inquiries and information, but also avoiding absolutes:  
always and never.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Where is everyone hanging out these days?

[Carol Kocian]

On Aug 7, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:

Yet, some noncostuming email lists I am on are so active, every  
single day, that there is no way I can follow all the messages.   
including a couple of majordomo lists.



Is it because costume is visual? For your other e-mail lists, are  
they about visual arts, or can everything be expressed with writing?


On H-costume, if someone wants to show a finished costume or a  
project in progress, they need to direct us to a website. At first it  
was something like Flickr or their own web page, and later a blog.  
Blogs and facebook, on the other hand, have the capability built into  
the system to share images.


With a picture being worth 1000 words, it's faster to post images  
with captions than it is to type out the description.


So, rather than write a post to H-costume and set up a link for the  
photos, people can share in just the one place and be done with it.  
In the case of one Yahoogroup, there is a member who posts several  
times a week — the link for her blog. She doesn't share significant  
info on the Yahoogroup.


I enjoy H-costume as a view into what people are doing in other areas  
and eras of costume. I like that it comes into my in-box rather than  
having to go to various blogs or web forums.


Even on facebook, I often miss things. I thought I had liked  
Penny's facebook but did not remember seeing any posts from it. I  
double checked and it is there, unfortunately not close to times that  
I would look at facebook so I would miss the posts that way. I see  
more about The Costume Gallery on H-costume than I do on facebook.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Dressing a Victorian lady

[Carol Kocian]

I added a comment to the page about a lot of that info.

-Carol


On Jul 21, 2011, at 7:05 AM, Kate Bunting wrote:

...and, of course, before the 20th century if you were having an  
illicit affair and hadn't much time, you made love with most of  
your clothes on!


Kate Bunting
Librarian  17th century reenactor


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Re: [h-cost] Corset patterns and research questions

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Michael,

What era are you aiming for? Victoria was around for a long time and  
the ideal shape changed through those decades. Gores first show up  
in the softer corsets of the early 19thC. Having the right shape of  
the corset makes a difference in the finished look of the outfit.


My favorite book to start is Corsets  Crinolines by Norah Waugh. The  
pattern drafts are taken from extant corsets, and it's easy to see  
how the construction and shapes of the pieces affect the resulting  
shape of the body.


-Carol


On Mar 24, 2011, at 5:15 AM, Michael Deibert wrote:


Good morning everyone!

I'm doing some research into corsets, and thought it best to start  
on here

where many of you already have research. While I know a lot regarding
corsets, I have two main focuses.

The first is regarding corset patterns. I am hoping to develop a  
corset
pattern and thus would like to be able to have as many corset  
patterns to
base it off of as I can. While any corset pattern works, I am  
specifically
hoping to find Victorian era corset patterns with hip and/or bust  
gores.
From the many companies out there currently selling commercial  
pattersn,
there are few who focus on corsets with gores. I am looking at  
trying to
simplify the process of grading for different sizes, and believe  
that there
might be a way to accomplish this with gored patterns. So if any of  
you have
or know of patterns that I can get, please direct me in that  
direction!
(Remember copyright laws and direct me to where I can find things,  
rather

than just copy and paste.)

Second, the little research I've done so far indicates that during the
Victorian eras, there were many corset patterns that used gores -  
yet many
of the current commercial patterns focus on those without. Is there  
a reason
for this that anyone might be aware of? Is it easier to fit without  
gores?
Are gored patterns more difficult to make up? Any help in this  
direction is

also a huge plus!

Please don't shy away, the more I can accumulate, the better my final
pattern shall be once it is ready! Thanks in advance!

Michael Deibert
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Re: [h-cost] Corset patterns and research questions

[Carol Kocian]

19th century = 1800s, 1801 to 1900. The spoon busk was used in the  
19th century. The gores in the soft corset are used in 1820, which  
sounds like early for the time span you are looking at.


Early and late Victorian are different shapes. I don't know that  
there is an average customer!


There are, however, may women who wear corsets for steampunk (not as  
strict for accuracy) and goth fashion (also no need for historic  
accuracy). Maybe you are aiming for that market? But once you are  
talking about reenactors, I consider them to be more interested in  
accuracy and the look of the dress worn over the corset, so generic  
will only go so far.


You might also want to look at longline bras and other such modern  
lingerie. There have been garments, both mainstream and special- 
occasion, that have bra cups built in.


-Carol


On Mar 24, 2011, at 11:26 AM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote:

Which century are you researching?? I think you can perhaps start? 
with wikipedia if you don't have Waugh, yet. The spoon busk was  
quite before the 19th C. so it wouldn't be considered for the  
Victorian period anyway.? If you mean to be historical, I think the  
wheel has already been invented for the common man (woman).

Kathleen, who has been there already
.
-Original Message-
From: michaeljdeib...@gmail.com michaeljdeib...@gmail.com
Sent 3/24/2011 7:10:43 AM
To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com
Subject: Re: [h-cost] Corset patterns and research questionsFirst,  
that book is one of the top ones on my wish list! Perhaps I can  
scavenge the money for it bow that I've a specific reason!
While I'm aiming for Victorian, the style and shape will be geared  
more towards the average customer who really wouldn't care if it  
was early or late victorian. It's the hourglass shape, cinching in  
the waist, while providing support and lift and perhaps some  
cleavage (which would rarely been shown or desired to my knowledge  
in the days the style would be worn!)
But even though I'm aiming for a general dumb wearer, I want to  
have the historical aspect influencing the corset. I hope I'm not  
contradicting myself! Dare I say that my vision is a corset that,  
with the use of different sized gores, be sewn to fit a wide range  
of sizes and be historical accurate enough for re-enactors to wear,  
but suitable for any woman to wear in place of a bra? Does that  
help any?
I do know that I plan on using a straight busk not a spoon, so if  
my memory serves right, that puts me in the earlier eras... But you  
mentioned that gores didn't fully show up till the later eras... Is  
it possible to breed the two together and still work? Thus the  
research!

Michael Deibert
OAS AAS LLS
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 24, 2011, at 6:45, Carol Kocian aqua...@patriot.net wrote:

Hi Michael,

What era are you aiming for? Victoria was around for a long time  
and the ideal shape changed through those decades. Gores first  
show up in the softer corsets of the early 19thC. Having the right  
shape of the corset makes a difference in the finished look of the  
outfit.


My favorite book to start is Corsets  Crinolines by Norah Waugh.  
The pattern drafts are taken from extant corsets, and it's easy to  
see how the construction and shapes of the pieces affect the  
resulting shape of the body.


-Carol


On Mar 24, 2011, at 5:15 AM, Michael Deibert wrote:


Good morning everyone!

I'm doing some research into corsets, and thought it best to  
start on here
where many of you already have research. While I know a lot  
regarding

corsets, I have two main focuses.

The first is regarding corset patterns. I am hoping to develop a  
corset
pattern and thus would like to be able to have as many corset  
patterns to
base it off of as I can. While any corset pattern works, I am  
specifically
hoping to find Victorian era corset patterns with hip and/or bust  
gores.
From the many companies out there currently selling commercial  
pattersn,
there are few who focus on corsets with gores. I am looking at  
trying to
simplify the process of grading for different sizes, and believe  
that there
might be a way to accomplish this with gored patterns. So if any  
of you have
or know of patterns that I can get, please direct me in that  
direction!
(Remember copyright laws and direct me to where I can find  
things, rather

than just copy and paste.)

Second, the little research I've done so far indicates that  
during the
Victorian eras, there were many corset patterns that used gores -  
yet many
of the current commercial patterns focus on those without. Is  
there a reason
for this that anyone might be aware of? Is it easier to fit  
without gores?
Are gored patterns more difficult to make up? Any help in this  
direction is

also a huge plus!

Please don't shy away, the more I can accumulate, the better my  
final

pattern shall be once it is ready! Thanks in advance!

Michael Deibert
___
h

Re: [h-cost] Authenticity

[Carol Kocian]

Cin, I remember, I've been on the list since the 90s. I think it is  
possible to discuss authenticity issues without arguments. It does  
not have to go in that direction.


So far everyone seems to be in agreement that it will vary. I enjoy  
stories like Lisa's about her great grandmother's dress. I disagree  
with Kathleen only in that I think Bjarne is subject to the same  
compromises and decisions as anyone else. ;-)


With such broad interests included in the scope of the list, it's  
important to give some context to the question... or the reply. Some  
questions are best asked of a particular group or event management.  
Some groups actively work to improve the level of authenticity of  
their membership, so that is a definite possibility, too.


One experience of mine that might be closer to Michael's intended  
discussion: I was learning about mid-18thC French women's clothing,  
particularly the corset which is more like English jumps: a shaping  
upper-body garment not as firm as stays. The information was that  
paper was used as an inner layer, but the instructor recommended  
heavy weight Pellon. I decided to try paper, using a card-weight  
parchment. It held the shape ok, but crinkled a bit. I don't know if  
there are extant corsets where you can see the type of paper used.  
Sometimes experiments are necessary to understand the process.


-Carol


On Mar 13, 2011, at 2:57 PM, Cin wrote:


Carol,
We dont discuss the Great Authenticity Issue on this list anymore.
All the nasty arguments  bitter recriminations have been made.  Find
the old fights in the archives.  Discuss it  you'll see a wave of
unsubscribes.
--cin
Cynthia Barnes
cinbar...@gmail.com

On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Carol Kocian aqua...@patriot.net  
wrote:
- Where do we draw the line between what is acceptable as  
historically

accurate vs historically authentic?



- With modern sewing skills and fads (such as zippers), where do we
encorporate those skills to aid in construction of period  
garments, or do we

insist on using the period methods?


Historic activities run the gamut from immersion reenactment to a  
town's
history days event, with different expectations and requirements  
for
different events. Sometimes someone will ask a discussion list if  
something

is OK, when really that decision is up to the event organizers or the
leadership of  a particular group.

Where you draw the line is different than where I would draw it,  
and it

could even be different for the garments in the same outfit.

Absolute authenticity is a moving target, because the more we  
know, the more

details there are that are harder t0 reach.

That leads into the next question — where to substitute modern  
skills. When
more labor-intensive methods are used, for example hand stitching,  
custom
weaving, hand-knitting and the like, the potential for clients  
gets smaller.
Some of these methods become a labor of love, a desire to learn a  
technique

for its own sake.

All costume, including the broader sense that all clothing is  
costume, is a

deliberate effort to communicate something to the rest of the world.
Appearance is important, the outermost layer. Some groups have the  
standard
of hand stitching for visible seams, but machine sewn is ok for  
interior
construction — for eras before the sewing machine was around.  
Underpinnings
do make a difference in how the costume looks from the outside,  
but how much
does it matter that the corset looks right, as long as it gives  
the right
shaping. But once you have a reason to show the corset, its  
appearance

becomes more important.

Beyond that, as above, it starts to depend on personal interest in a
particular technique or a desire to learn the techniques of a  
particular

era.

-Carol


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[h-cost] Authenticity

[Carol Kocian]

- Where do we draw the line between what is acceptable as  
historically accurate vs historically authentic?


- With modern sewing skills and fads (such as zippers), where do we  
encorporate those skills to aid in construction of period garments,  
or do we insist on using the period methods?


Historic activities run the gamut from immersion reenactment to a  
town's history days event, with different expectations and  
requirements for different events. Sometimes someone will ask a  
discussion list if something is OK, when really that decision is up  
to the event organizers or the leadership of  a particular group.


Where you draw the line is different than where I would draw it, and  
it could even be different for the garments in the same outfit.


Absolute authenticity is a moving target, because the more we know,  
the more details there are that are harder t0 reach.


That leads into the next question — where to substitute modern  
skills. When more labor-intensive methods are used, for example hand  
stitching, custom weaving, hand-knitting and the like, the potential  
for clients gets smaller. Some of these methods become a labor of  
love, a desire to learn a technique for its own sake.


All costume, including the broader sense that all clothing is  
costume, is a deliberate effort to communicate something to the rest  
of the world. Appearance is important, the outermost layer. Some  
groups have the standard of hand stitching for visible seams, but  
machine sewn is ok for interior construction — for eras before the  
sewing machine was around. Underpinnings do make a difference in how  
the costume looks from the outside, but how much does it matter that  
the corset looks right, as long as it gives the right shaping. But  
once you have a reason to show the corset, its appearance becomes  
more important.


Beyond that, as above, it starts to depend on personal interest in a  
particular technique or a desire to learn the techniques of a  
particular era.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?

[Carol Kocian]

On Mar 11, 2011, at 8:06 PM, Michael Deibert wrote:

[On a side note, history of costume would be of little help to a  
fashion design major - unless it covers the history of modern  
fashion or period fashion is become a mainstream revival without my  
knowledge.]


When I was studying fashion design, there were two history of  
costume courses, covering before and after about 1840. Merchandising  
majors only were required to take the later course, and fashion  
required both. I would think the classes were useful to the Theater  
department, too.


First of all, aren't the designers the ones who create various  
revivals? Often there is a movie that has an impact or inspiration to  
fashion, like Shakespeare in Love, or Out of Africa. Mad Men seems to  
be having an effect currently.


One of the big benefits of the History of Costume class is that it  
teaches or reinforces research skills. For example, say a designer or  
custom seamstress or costumer wants to use cartridge pleats. What  
eras used them? Can I find pictures or artwork of people in them? Can  
I find extant examples, in a museum or in a vintage clothing store?  
How can I get the look using less fabric, did any era do that? How is  
it that a particular ensemble looks when all put together?


There is more to a costume history class than chitons and hoop  
skirts. We had projects that involved research and we presented them  
to the class. The class taught us where to look for information, and  
that we had the capability to do that.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] OT: skin tone mesh long sleeved shirt

[Carol Kocian]

Looks like this person makes them:

http://www.sugarpetals.com/body_stockings.asp

Search under mesh leotard.


On Feb 17, 2011, at 3:24 PM, Rickard, Patty wrote:


Need it be mesh? - skin toned leotards should be easy to find.

http://www.fromthetopdancewear.com/store/product.php?productid=16492


http://www.amazon.com/Capezio-Womens-Long-Sleeve-Leotard/dp/ 
B002XULQ8K/ref=pd_sbs_a_3


patty



Subject: [h-cost] OT: skin tone mesh long sleeved shirt

Good afternoon,

This is slightly off topic, but at the moment my google seaching  
skills are
totally failing me. I'm trying to find a skin-tone mesh top of the  
kind that
would be worn with a stage costume; but I would prefer a long- 
sleeved shirt
(even better if it buttons at the crotch) to buying fabric and  
having to sew

it myself.


Thank you!

Audrey



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Re: [h-cost] 18thC stockings, was: Fashioning Fashion

[Carol Kocian]

18thC stockings have been discussed in detail on a few different lists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricKnit/
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/18cWoman/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FandIWomen/

What you saw are probably frame knit as opposed to hand knit. Here is  
a link to a pair, and I'm sure the embroidery is different:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
RememberingJeremyFarrell


There are a few differences between how they were made and making  
them yourself. Through most of the 18thC, stockings were knit to  
shape on the knitting frame. That means that they had a finished  
edge. When making them from a cut fabric, you'll need to make sure  
you have a sufficient seam allowance or seam finish. The really  
tricky place for this is at the top of the gore which would be  
inserted into the ankle portion. See the Kannick's pattern illustration:


http://www.kannikskorner.com/pataccess.htm
Stockings, pockets and mitts, a good base for making your repro  
stockings from knit yardgoods.


18thC knits were dense, and the frame knit fabric does not have a lot  
of stretch. Modern jersey knits are very stretchy, so while you could  
use a silk jersey, it will be different. It depends on how picky you  
are about that, also experiments would help to see how well it can  
support the embroidery.


So far all stockings I've seen (and I've seen a lot of them!) have  
the clocking on BOTH SIDES of the leg.


As far as the embellishment, since you said it was gold then I'm  
assuming metallic threads. With metallic thread, some stockings have  
the main motif stitched onto vellum, then that piece is applied onto  
the stocking with extra portions embroidered right on the stocking.


Regular old silk thread embroidery is also found.

Plating is specific to frame-knit stockings and seems to have fallen  
out of fashion about the middle of the 18th century. This was done as  
the stocking was knit, by introducing a contrast color of filaments  
on top of the main thread. It can be mimicked by duplicate stitch  
embroidery, but that embroidery thread would have to be very fine.


Turnshapes were a way of manipulating the frame knitting (in  
progress) to form purl stitches. I think these fell out of favor as  
frame knitting became more of a production craft, with the finished  
plain stocking handed off to an embroiderer (cheaper tools) for  
embellishment.


One more technique is called chevening, supposedly invented in  
1783. This involves taking a horizontal stitch across the knit stitch  
ad can be seen in the 3rd image (monochrome clocking) of the  
Remembering Jeremy Farrell set. With single stitches in the same  
thread as the stocking, it will resemble purl stitches. Stitches were  
also taken across 3, 5 or 7 stitches to form the more detailed design  
such as the one in that image. Chevening was also done in colors for  
some very complex designs, especially going into the early 19th century.


A lot of this will require decisions and compromise as you make your  
stockings. I learned to knit on an antique frame but never got close  
to an exact repro. It all depends on your end use and authenticity  
standards. You can get away with more short-cuts on something you are  
wearing vs. a stocking made to go on display.


-Carol


On Jan 29, 2011, at 3:26 AM, Marjorie Wilser wrote:

One surprise was a delicious bright red pair of ladies' hose from  
the 18th century. They were knit in silk with a fine denier,  
looking much like modern t-shirt knit, and heavily embroidered  
(clocked) in gold. The surprise was the construction. The fine knit  
fabric was literally sewn down the back. The heel seam was a right  
angle and continued underneath the heel, ending at the back of the  
instep. Not much relation to the way in which I knit my own socks,  
and I have tried some historic patterns. I'll be able to describe  
more when I upload my potos.


It appears to me that any ambitious sewing person could fashion  
these stockings, if she/he wanted to embroider badly enough to have  
some luscious clocked stockings. . .



http://www.lacma.org/art/ExhibFashioningFashion.aspx

== Marjorie Wilser

=:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:=

Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement.  
--MW


http://3toad.blogspot.com/


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Re: [h-cost] Seeking help with La Fleur de Lyse pattern -11th-12thCentury

[Carol Kocian]

I don't know if it's related at all — when Robin Netherton  
demonstrated making a gothic fitted gown, she might or might not use  
front and back gores depending on the figure of the wearer. If I  
recall correctly, wide hips worked well with the flare at the sides,  
and for a straight figure, center gores were needed to get the right  
shape.


It may be a similar effect here, where the cut of the gown is  
different for different people.


-Carol


On Jan 31, 2011, at 12:13 AM, Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote:

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 2:30 AM, Wicked Frau wickedf...@gmail.com  
wrote:
Just a note, Dame Angele taught me that putting a gore in the  
front can cause problems.   It can catch between your legs when  
walking.  In the end all you need is fullness, so perhaps consider  
cutting only three gores and putting them on the sides and back.


Sg


I know gores front and back are done very frequently, but I too  
prefer only sides, for this very reason. And I think the tunics  
hang better this way, at least in linen and wool. Cotton is  
stiffer, it might not work as well.



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Re: [h-cost] Early Elizabethan Corsets for Barbie

[Carol Kocian]

I read once that you can heat up a Barbie and squish her body into  
the shape you want. I don't know anything beyond that, but since  
Elizabethan tended to flatten and the 18thC effect is pleasing  
mounds, Barbie's original shape is not quite right.


-Carol


On Jan 14, 2011, at 12:30 PM, cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com wrote:

I've used 1/8 zip ties to bone doll corsets, for hard-body, not- 
squishable
dolls. But I was making Victorian corsets. With a pair-of-bodies,  
you'll just

have to let there be airspace under her boobs.

Do share the results. :)



Claudine



- Original Message 

From: Natalie natali...@gmail.com
To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 9:18:29 AM
Subject: [h-cost] Early Elizabethan Corsets for Barbie

I'm taking my passion for Barbie in a new direction (she  
previously only kept
my  crochet hook busy). I know I have seen a very well done  
website detailing
how to  make early Elizabethan underpinnings for Barbie, but now  
my google-fu
fails me  and I don't have it bookmarked either. It is not so much  
the pattern
construction that eludes me as what to use to stiffen the corset  
to create the

conical 'Bethan shape instead of Barbie's hourglass.

If anyone has any  ideas or can point me to the site I am  
wondering about, it

would be very much  appreciated! Thanks in  advance!

Natalie
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Re: [h-cost] question on corset patterns

[Carol Kocian]

For 18thC stays, which have straighter lines than the later era  
corsets, a possibility for making a muslin is to use cardboard.  
Ordinary heavy fabric won't have the vertical stiffness. The  
cardboard will help determine if the stays are too long, digging into  
an armpit, etc etc. And, of course, se duct tape to hold the  
cardboard pieces together!  :-)


-Carol



On Jan 7, 2011, at 9:56 PM, Pierre  Sandy Pettinger wrote:


A note on fitting corset muslins:

A hint I got several years ago - don't remember from where - was  
to create two strips out of heavy material - old jeans will do in  
a pinch.  Make them at least double thickness, and put a narrow  
bone of some sort along the edge fold.  Then put in grommets about  
every inch.  Make them longer than you think you'll need for any  
possible corset style you might ever make.  These can then be  
basted into a muslin so you can lace it up properly to check the  
fit, without having to put in grommets, try to pin it to fit (not  
happening), or making slits that then rip out after one fitting.   
Once you have the fit, remove them and use them for the next  
corset muslin.


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Re: [h-cost] 15th Year Anniversary

[Carol Kocian]

Congrats and thank you, Penny!

Has it been that long? I remember back when you did the directory of  
H-Costume members. Was that around the same time?


-Carol


On Jan 6, 2011, at 4:40 AM, penn...@costumegallery.com  
penn...@costumegallery.com wrote:


Today our The Costume Gallery Websites 15th Anniversary. Hard to  
believe
that we have been online that long.  I started the online Research  
Library
as a college student.  This was also my first year on h-costume.  I  
hope
some of those members from then are still on h-costume.  If so,  
many, many
thanks for all your support while I was building my first website.   
In 1996,
there were only a handful of costume related websites.  After  
having trouble
finding sites to research, I started the online Library and  
purchasing old
costume history publications to put on the website.  I rarely give  
my own
opinion on the sites' content. I save my opinions for Facebook.  My  
goal all
these years with the websites is to present the resources for  
others to

research.

To celebrate our anniversary, we are opening up free access to the  
public
for 13 of 14 websites. The Costume Classroom is only open to our  
students.
Please let your friends know about our free access. Our Anniversary  
free
access will end Friday night, 10 PM, East Coast U.S. time.  
Passwords and

details are below.
Passwords for all The Costume Gallery Websites except the Costume  
Classroom:


Login: cg2003
Password:  ksp264adb

OUR WEBSITES:

The Costume Gallery's main website: http://www.costumegallery.com


The Costume Gallery Research Library: http://www.costumelibrary.com


The Costume, Fashion,  Textile Dictionary
http://www.costumegallery.com/Library/Dictionary/dictionary.pdf


Costume Encyclopedia: http://www.costumeencyclopedia.com
Over 770 entries and 407 images of costume descriptions and  
definitions.



Fashion Color Database: http://www.fcdatabase.com
Over 2100 entries of color names and their trends, definitions, or  
usage.
The passwords for the FCD: ksp264adb. Do not use the login  
***cg2003*** like

for the Library.


Library's Slideshows: http://www.costumeslideshows.com
25 slideshows with 1,852 photos.


Designers of Their Time: http://www.pastdesigners.com
85 fashion designers and 479 images.  The passwords are the same as  
for the

Library.


Wedding Fashion History: http://www.antiquebrides.com


Hairstyle History: http://www.pasthairstyles.com


Children's Clothing History: http://www.pastkidsclothes.com


Sunday's Best Clothes: 1st Communion  Confirmation Antique Photos:
http://www.communionhistory.com


Hats Off!!! Hat History: http://www.pasthats.com


Online Costume Ball: http://www.onlinecostumeball.com


Penny Ladnier, owner
The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
14 websites of fashion, costume, and textile history


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Re: [h-cost] What's your dressmaker's dummy wearing today?

[Carol Kocian]

Not much in the way of historic costume, but I did have a recent  
project of making hemmed squares of novelty prints around Halloween  
and after. :-)  The frightening thing is, I discovered that wearing  
one as a kerchief adds a few degrees of extra warmth, so yes, that's  
me wearing a  skull print when I go out to get the mail. And around  
the house.


I've been looking at and enjoying the designs people have done on  
Spoonflower. Some are quite wonderful, but the fact is if I can get a  
particular motif at the quilt store for $9 or less per yard, I'm not  
going to pay $18. But it's definitely worth looking at to see some  
really fun designs.


My most recent take me home inspiration — I was at my local yarn  
store a few days ago for their first anniversary in business. I spun  
up some Jacob fleece (part of the 18thC stocking research project)  
and socialized. I spotted a beautiful yarn: Three Irish Girls'  
Curaçao, a soft variegation of medium and light aqua. It wants to  
be a mermaid. I guess I'll start with my squid pattern and go from  
there.  :-)


Speaking of knitting (and back to historic costume) — Ok, I think of  
mitts as having a partial thumb and a single opening for all four  
fingers. What is the item called when the fingers are also  
differentiated? Usually I see them ending just before the knuckle,  
but I'm thinking about making some that would only have an open  
fingertip. I'm sure I could just adapt a glove pattern for that, but  
I'm just curious if there is a name for it.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] What's your dressmaker's dummy wearing today?

[Carol Kocian]

Yes, that's exactly what I need them for, computing in a cold room.  
Tipless gloves? :-)


I'm sure we could wear regular gloves, but then our fingers might  
slide and cause (more) typos. Considering the gloves I find often are  
too short in the finger, cutting off the very tip would still fit  
down more on the hand.


I suppose there are mitts and fingerless mitts (with a hole that all  
four fingers go through).


The printing museum sounds awesome! What era? Do you have a  
collection of aprons to keep the ink off your clothes?


-Carol


On Dec 3, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Lynn Downward wrote:

I've been wearing cheap gloves with the finger tips cut off in my  
office for
the past week because of the cold. My office doesn't have much heat  
and it's
been real work just to type on my computer. I've been finding  
excuses to get

up and walk around the building just to get my blood circulating.

thank goodness for mittens/mitts/fingerless mittens, whatever we  
call them!


LynnD

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Marjorie Wilser  
the3t...@gmail.com wrote:



Ann,

I don't think there's any differentiation in the mitts category.  
Though
fingerless handwear in general seems to be mittens OR mitts. But  
it all

depends on what century and what decade of the century.

Makes me want to take my mitts tomorrow to work at the printing  
museum.
Sometimes equipment rooms are downright chilly, especially if they  
don't

boast a Linotype in residence!

   == Marjorie Wilser


=:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:=

Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for  
amusement. --MW


http://3toad.blogspot.com/




 On Dec 3, 2010, at 4:16 PM, annbw...@aol.com wrote:




In a message dated 12/3/2010 4:39:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
aqua...@patriot.net writes:

What is  the item called when the fingers are also
differentiated? Usually I  see them ending just before the knuckle,
but I'm thinking about  making some that would only have an open
fingertip. I'm sure I could  just adapt a glove pattern for that,  
but

I'm just curious if there  is a name for it.

I believe they are also mitts, but not fingerless.

Ann Wass
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Re: [h-cost] OT: Christmas Decorations

[Carol Kocian]

I think the textile techniques are interesting, but would prefer that  
the discussions relate back to historic costume. There are certainly  
a lot of things to discuss regarding the winter holidays — special  
outfits that people had for the season, and also fancy dress or  
theatrical items worn for seasonal plays, parades, tableaux and the  
like.


Borderline question: do tree skirts count as costume?  ;-)

-Carol



-Original Message-
OFF TOPIC

This might not be historic or vintage needlework but I found a  
beautiful
cut-work embroidered Christmas runner last summer in an antique  
store.  The

embroidery is machine made.

 http://www.costumegallery.com/runner.jpg
http://www.costumegallery.com/runner.jpg

De: I remember this type of cutwork/embroidery with the color was  
popular in
the 30s and 40s. Another technique was with sheer cotton and a  
piece of
colored fabric was sewn to the back to give a frosted look to the  
design

and then the cutwork to accent.


P:The CWdecorations are made of all natural items.   I am returning  
to CW
Dec. 11 to see if they have new decorations and photograph them.   
Today I am

making my variation of this wreath:

 http://www.costumegallery.com/Williamsburg/2009/1020053.htm
http://www.costumegallery.com/Williamsburg/2009/1020053.htm .




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Re: [h-cost] how museums can help costumers

[Carol Kocian]

On Nov 11, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Chris Laning wrote:

Both of these, alas, pretty much boil down to questions of money.  
Museums are increasingly understaffed, and often can't spare the  
time for their curators to do much research on what something  
really is and how it should be labeled. Also, it means that the few  
curators they can hire often don't cover the full range of  
expertise they need for the things they have -- almost no fine arts  
museums have jewelry curators, for instance.




 Sometimes it's a matter of what costumers can do for museums!  
It's possible that they could use volunteers for some of these tasks.  
If the museum is an essential source for the type of costuming you  
do, make them your project as well.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Words for clothes

[Carol Kocian]

It's a funny thing, since the Costume Society of America says it's  
all costume, even what I'm wearing right now.  :-)


For many people, costume is for Halloween and theater, so most  
groups who have specialized clothing for other purposes will pick  
another term. Any word we choose can still be said with some disdain  
and eye-rolling. When it's asked respectfully (and I think most times  
it is), then I agree we can explain the differences without taking an  
offended posture.


-Carol


On Oct 12, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Chris Laning wrote:


On Oct 12, 2010, at 6:02 AM, annbw...@aol.com wrote:

Now here is another interesting use of a word for one's clothing  
and accouterments.  Had to look up exactly what regalia means--I  
have of course seen it to mean one's trappings, outfit, etc.  Its  
origin, though, which makes sense if one thinks about it, is the  
rights and privileges belong to a monarch or ruler.


I referred to myself as a costume historian to a War of 1812  
reenactor, and he insisted his outfit is clothing, not costume.   
Yet, among square dancers, the preferred term for the matching  
outfits worn by everyone on the committee of a national square  
dance convention is costume.


Clothing, apparel, attire, costume, regalia--I guess it is like  
one's own personal name--one should use the term the individual  
(or group) prefers.  However, one shouldn't be offended if a poor  
soul uses the wrong term because one doesn't know what that group  
prefers!



And in the Society for Creative Anachronism it's garb.

When people are talking about their medieval clothes, they are  
sometimes garb, sometimes simply clothes -- very few people call  
them a costume (at least in my hearing), although someone who  
makes such medieval clothes is usually a costumer.


I prefer clothes, as do many of the people I hang out with, but  
garb is handy as a one-word term for the clothes I wear to SCA  
events, as opposed to the clothes I wear on other days.


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Re: [h-cost] Vintage wedding dress

[Carol Kocian]

You may want to check E-bay to see what similar items are going for.  
As special occasion clothing, wedding dresses do tend to be saved.  
They have more sentimental value to people in the family than to others.


Is there a drycleaner who specializes in wedding dresses who can  
assess the condition? It may look good but have dry rot and not  
suitable to wear. The larger the size, the easier it would be to find  
a bride interested in it.


-Carol


On Oct 12, 2010, at 6:05 AM, Rebecca Tonkin wrote:


Hi All:
My great-aunt recently unearthed an old wedding dress from 1935. It  
is apparently (I haven't seen it) in good condition. My question  
is, does such a dress have any value? and if so, where would be  
best to enquire about selling it? I live in Australia.

Thanks for any help,
Rebecca


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Re: [h-cost] Chemise pattern

[Carol Kocian]

On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:10 AM, Kate Bunting wrote:


Laurie T wrote:

The chemise in the painting seems unlikely to have a drawstring  
neckline.

Any thoughts on this?


We discussed drawstrings on shifts/chemises a few years ago, and  
the consensus was that before the 18th century they all had sewn  
gathers round the neck and wrists.


I recently heard a talk by Stuart Peachey, the British expert on  
the 17th century, and asked him a question about this. He confirmed  
the above statement.


Kate Bunting
Librarian  17th century reenactor.



Not much in the way of drawstrings in the 18thC, either. There are a  
few cases of a drawstring to snug up or hold the shape of a neckline,  
but not for controlling mass quantities of fabric. Shift sleeves were  
gathered into cuffs that buttoned and sometimes had a ruffle added..  
Some decades had volume in the sleeves, others had less volume when  
the gown sleeves fit closely.


I think the 1960s/70s peasant look made us believe drawstrings were  
all over the place.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Need help on quick solution for boy's clothing, c. 1800, US Midwest

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Robin,

 If he's working class, long trousers would be fine. I  
understand going with breeches since that reads more as a historic  
costume.


 Stockings: get black stockings and black shoes. I know in the  
1770s, servants wore colored stockings. Possibly they looked cleaner  
than white. :-)


 If you have black shoes and black stockings, neither will be  
emphasized so you don't have to worry so much about them being good.


 I think the neckstock is a great idea, and that way you don't  
have to worry at all about the collar on the shirt. I don't agree  
about a mandarin collar, since shirts of the time had collars. But  
it's moot if he has a neck stock.  :-)


 -Carol


On Sep 1, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Robin Netherton wrote:

This is all really useful! I've been having a terrible time finding  
good images online because the costume sources all seem to focus  
on East Coast Colonial or all-leather Daniel Boone styles with  
not much in between. I will need to take time for a slow perusal  
through art and such, but time is just what I don't have right now.


Great idea from Denise about a mandarin collared shirt, which may  
save me the trouble of making new. (I hate sewing for a growing boy  
who will outgrow it before the next year's event!) Goodwill, here I  
come.


A look at photos from previous events at the site in question shows  
lots of breeches like Albert described. I can modify a pair of my  
kid's outgrown khaki pants for these. A couple of questions for  
those of you who've done it: First, how low do I cut them off? I'm  
thinking below the knee, maybe by a couple of inches; he'll need to  
be sitting when he performs and needs freedom of movement, and I  
don't want them binding at the knee when he bends his leg. Second,  
how best to fasten the band at the bottom of the pants leg? With a  
button (what type?) or something else?


I'm thinking on the line of girls' plain white kneesocks to cover  
the calf, unless someone tells me otherwise. Shoes, I'm probably  
stuck with the black athletics unless there are moccasins or boots  
in the right size at Goodwill, but I can get away with the shoes;  
any attempt at costume will be welcome, and it's not a strict re- 
enactment.


--Robin


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[h-cost] Fashion Photography Competition

[Carol Kocian]

Hi all,

I just noticed this morning they re-enabled the comments for the  
fashion photo contest. They were disabled for a few weeks, maybe  
because of administrators on vacation. Also five more entries have  
been added, again I assume they were in on time but not approved  
until now.


Please have a look and leave your comments!

mine:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
RememberingJeremyFarrell


Penny's:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
FashionsPastandFuture


Miss Tipapin:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
MissTipapin


A new historic entry:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/MattV

And this one from my next-door neighbor:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/ 
17to21Years/BorisKafkaFashionhound


Thanks!
-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] pseudo historic costume

[Carol Kocian]

Oh well, those are the hazards of contests.  :-/

Actually I think together they make a cute costume group — St.  
George, the princess and the dragon.


It's a funny thing, I can remember getting to the point in making  
clothes where friends assumed they were purchased because they didn't  
look home-made. Good work from both of you!


-Carol


On Aug 1, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Deb Salisbury, the Mantua-Maker wrote:

I agree with Nancy; you were robbed!  You gals did a great job.   
Tell your daughter she gets my vote, hands down!


Happy sewing,
  Deb Salisbury
  The Mantua-Maker
  Designer and creator of quality historical sewing patterns,  
Renaissance to Victorian

  Now available:
 Elephant's Breath and London Smoke: Historical Colors,  
Names, Definitions  Uses

  www.mantua-maker.com
  http://mantua-maker-patterns.blogspot.com

the only costume sewing I've done this year is for my daughter's 4H  
costume.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/21642...@n06/4833605329/

She fit the costume and made the armor and accessories and cut out  
all the silver fabric applique. I had to iron it on because she  
melted the first one, and I sewed the seams just to save needles  
and/or a trip to the repair shop. (she's a rather careless seamstress)


Sadly (for us), the girl behind her won the class

Denise B
Iowa



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Re: [h-cost] pseudo historic costume

[Carol Kocian]

Oh, I see — I thought the ears looked like horns.  :-)

-Carol


On Aug 1, 2010, at 9:24 PM, Sharon Collier wrote:

Oh, I thought she was a Princess and the horse was the Frog! (see  
large lips

for kissing)

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Carol Kocian
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 4:26 PM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] pseudo historic costume

Oh well, those are the hazards of contests.  :-/

Actually I think together they make a cute costume group - St.
George, the princess and the dragon.

It's a funny thing, I can remember getting to the point in making  
clothes

where friends assumed they were purchased because they didn't look
home-made. Good work from both of you!

-Carol


On Aug 1, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Deb Salisbury, the Mantua-Maker wrote:


I agree with Nancy; you were robbed!  You gals did a great job.
Tell your daughter she gets my vote, hands down!

Happy sewing,
  Deb Salisbury
  The Mantua-Maker
  Designer and creator of quality historical sewing patterns,
Renaissance to Victorian
  Now available:
 Elephant's Breath and London Smoke: Historical Colors,  
Names,

Definitions  Uses
  www.mantua-maker.com
  http://mantua-maker-patterns.blogspot.com

the only costume sewing I've done this year is for my daughter's 4H
costume.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21642...@n06/4833605329/

She fit the costume and made the armor and accessories and cut out  
all
the silver fabric applique. I had to iron it on because she melted  
the
first one, and I sewed the seams just to save needles and/or a  
trip to

the repair shop. (she's a rather careless seamstress)

Sadly (for us), the girl behind her won the class

Denise B
Iowa



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Re: [h-cost] Make Historic Costumes Count too!

[Carol Kocian]

Deadline Today — Fashion Photography Contest

My photos are up! Please view and comment.  :-)
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
RememberingJeremyFarrell


Also friends recreated Collete's Miss Tipapin:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
MissTipapin


Don't forget to see Penny's entry:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
FashionsPastandFuture


...and plenty more entries of modern fashion that are fun to browse  
through.


The deadline to enter is today, and keep in mind the time difference  
for England. I don't know if they have to be in by midnight or close  
of business.


-Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Make Historic Costumes Count too!

[Carol Kocian]

Great link, thank you! The cut off date for entries is July 16th. I  
hope to see more H- and F- costumers there!


-Carol


On Jul 13, 2010, at 5:58 AM, penny1a wrote:

Please HELP! I have entered a fashion photo contest sponsored by  
the Museum
of Costume/Fashion, Bath, England. I have entered 9 photos, some  
that have
not been seen on the web before. Other photos are from Costume Cons  
27  28.
Please look at them and leave a comment. Ask your friends to look  
at them.

Thanks in advance!  The photos can be seen at:
http://www.visitorreview.com/fashionphotographycompetition/22Plus/ 
FashionsPa

standFuture

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com http://www.costumegallery.com/
14 websites of fashion, textiles,  costume history


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Re: [h-cost] 19th c women's dress - pockets

[Carol Kocian]

 Spot on, Robin!

 Also I remember the days before styrofoam was prevalent, and we  
would take home the extra bread in a napkin in mom's purse. Posh  
restaurants (with the cloth napkins) would wrap the leftovers in  
foil, and if you were lucky in the shape of a swan. I saw that on  
TV.  :-)


 -Carol


On Jun 9, 2010, at 4:19 PM, Robin Netherton wrote:


debloughcostu...@aol.com wrote:

Firstly, even though a pocket may have been sizable enough to  
accomodate  the items referred to, it wouldn't be waterproof.
 Secondly, who in their right mind would put them all in there   
together???  My coat has poachers pockets - designed for the  
transportation  of freshly shot game birds and therefore  
waterproof (not that I use it for such)  - I still wouldn't be  
putting cake and wine and chicken in there all at  once...


Ah, but she didn't put in wine, not intentionally. She put in cold  
chicken and sweet cakes, not the jellies, creams, and ices that  
were also being served. The mischievous observer clearly thought  
this greedy behavior was inappropriate, and, tempted by the  
opportunity, he dumped in his custard (I think that's what was in  
the glass he described, not wine) when she wasn't looking, fully  
aware she'd find an unexpected mess later, when she got home.


The cold chicken and sweet cakes sound as though they were set out  
as finger foods -- maybe greasy, but certainly self-contained and  
maybe not that large. The sweet cakes may have been something  
equivalent to cookies or brownies; the chicken and meats may even  
have been pastry-wrapped but might have been chunks or slices. Wrap  
them in a handkerchief and it's no messier than tucking an  
unfinished few things from your plate into a napkin in your purse  
when you're leaving a restaurant. (I should note that taking home  
food you've paid for as part of a meal is quite unobjectionable,  
and not parallel to the situation in the quotation. Lifting food  
off the buffet-at-the-ball as described is more like pocketing  
extras off an all-you-can-eat buffet after you've eaten your fill,  
as someone else mentioned in this thread. That's probably what  
caught the writer's attention, who makes the point that the women  
in question had already eaten as much as they could.)


The quotation again:
The supper was at a buffet in another room and there was plenty of
cold chicken and cold meat, with jellies, creams and ices, which was
done justice to, especially by the ladies who crowded up to the buffet
and, after eating as much as they could, pocketed many of the good
things.  One stout middle-aged French woman was engaged in filling her
pockets which were stuffed out with cold chicken and sweet cakes as
she stood before me.  I was eating a custard – the opportunity was
tempting – so I emptied my glass into her open pocket, and a nice
mixture she must have found when she got home.

--Robin



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Re: [h-cost] Preparing an exhibition of historical garments

[Carol Kocian]

 Look for My Double. There's at least one on Ebay, bid is over  
$100.


 It's thicker and harder to bend than chicken wire. The My  
Double is meant to be formed around one's body and then stays firm  
enough to be able to drape on it.


 I learned to make forms in a museum with ethafoam — we used the  
2 thick pieces, cut them into circles, ovals or whatever shape best  
worked for the torso, then hotglued them together.


 -Carol


On May 30, 2010, at 3:37 PM, ladybeanofbun...@aol.com wrote:

Didn't realize anyone actually ever marketed something of the sort.  
I've never seen one online but wish I had! Maybe they don't use the  
exact same type of chicken wire because the kind I use is flexible  
enough that there was never a problem getting the exact form  
required. The secret is to sort of tuck in the wire to make a  
larger reduction quickly sort of like folding under fabric.
Would really like to know now how the other ones are to work with,  
if they'd be easier or harder but when cutting everything to size  
on your own it will be the right height, width, etc.
Do you know what brand they were? It's probably much cheaper  
despite the extra effort to make them, though I made my first 6 in  
one afternoon so it isn't too difficult if you have a good game  
plan before starting. Guess it is a matter of weighing preference,  
time and convenience vs. cost.

-Justine.



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Re: [h-cost] A tailoring question

[Carol Kocian]

On May 19, 2010, at 11:09 PM, Pixel, Goddess and Queen wrote:

This is the sort of embroidery I am talking about--a circle but not  
the entire keyhole: http://img193.imageshack.us/i/dsc6499k.jpg/  
This is the Consort's outfit, which you will notice lies nice and  
flat when you arrange it to photograph it (or to attach the  
finished embroidery). I use the template for the keyhole neckline  
placket for the proper sizing.


But apparently I have to be special. My shoulders slope pretty  
dramatically--I have lovely Victorian champagne-bottle shoulders-- 
which means that to fit smoothly my gowns get a little more  
tailoring. Specifically, I sew the two body panels together  
straight, do the neckline with a keyhole facing and then re-cut the  
panels (starting from the seam on the neck facing) down at an angle  
out to the point of the shoulder. The result is that it drops the  
point of the shoulder down about 1 1/2, but then when it comes  
time to attach the  embroidery to the gown there is more embroidery  
than there is gown and it won't lie flat.




 Your embroidery will not be a complete circle. Using a gown  
that fits you, adjust the pattern to reflect your shoulder  
adjustment. Trace the pattern twice onto another piece of paper (just  
the top part). Tape together the shoulder sections and the center  
back. You should see a gap in the center front.


 Measure from the neck out for the width of your embroidery.  
That's your pattern.


 The next challenge is to get the motifs evenly as you have done  
in the photo. You'll have to divide your arc into sections, maybe use  
a protractor to do that.


 Once you have your pattern, you can cut the shoulders right  
every time and not have to re-sew the shoulders.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Use

[Carol Kocian]

There are two different issues here. One is copyright, regarding  
making a copy of part of a book. There are other ways to get the  
information, for example Inter Library Loan or looking at a friend's  
copy. Or asking the friend if the book contains a particular thing.  
If one is interested in buying the book, you can read reviews. For  
some books, Amazon and other online sellers offer the table of  
contents and a representative page or three for view.


 After the discussions of copyright on various forums, I'm  
surprised when I see people offer, on a public forum, to scan and  
send parts of books. Likewise, when someone asks to borrow a book and  
then says it's because they want to copy it, I'm dismayed and do not  
loan it. It's not the lack of awareness about copyright (since  
everyone seems to be aware of it), it's the casual attitude about  
violating copyright.



 The other issue is the rights of ownership of an object. A  
photographer owns the copyright of their photographs, but may agree  
to a limited use as a condition of access. If a museum allows you to  
examine and make a pattern of a garment, and you sell it as that red  
dress in the XYZ museum without their permission, you could get in  
trouble and also limit future access for yourself and other researchers.



 I have seen cases of people researching and reproducing  
original objects. Take the Eleanora of Toledo stockings, for example.  
People have come up with patterns, usually adapted for their own  
size. If they decided to sell the pattern on a large scale, or  
decided to manufacture and sell the repro stockings, they may need  
special permission to do so.



 Some projects are best consulted privately, which people have  
done on this list. Now that we know people are interested in the  
pourpoint brocade, anyone on the list could grab the project and run  
with it. Someone might decide to do a print of the fabric on  
Spoonflower. Which is a third issue — if you have an idea for a  
commercial product, why discuss it on H-costume? We can ask if others  
have done a particular type of project, but why give away the details?


 -Carol


On May 13, 2010, at 8:42 AM, Beteena Paradise wrote:

I think in order to make your question more closely resemble the  
current issue, you need to add the words 700 years after your death.



From: annbw...@aol.com annbw...@aol.com

Okay, let's try this one more time.  Suppose someone bought a yard  
of  your custom-produced brocade, and using technology (that  
admittedly probably doesn't exist yet) scanned it and starting  
producing their own brocade, in exactly the same pattern, and  
selling it.  Would you regard that as  fair use?


Ann Wass


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Re: [h-cost] Brocade and Fair Usegalities

[Carol Kocian]

On May 13, 2010, at 3:08 PM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote:

Coming late into this discussion, I have found myself wondering  
about how commercial companies (say Waverly) go about reproducing  
fabrics from the historical perspective (say Winterthur or  
Williamsburg). Permission to copy?? Permission to sell? Historical  
houses seem to go the reproduction method...when they can afford  
it...all the time.? What makes the diff when the reproduced fabric  
is used for costume purposes?


 A licensing agreement between Colonial Williamsburg and  
Waverly. Or the historic site might hire the fabric company to make  
the reproduction.


 I don't think there is a difference if the fabric is used for  
costume purposes. Once I buy my yardage, they don't care if I use it  
for curtains, a gown, or a slipcover for my unicorn.


 The difference is that there are more home-decor enthusiasts  
than costumers out there. When looking for a market for  
reproductions, they go for the bigger group. Costumers will enjoy a  
source of period jewelry, but the museum will select the pieces that  
will also appeal to the general public.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] book sharing, was: copyright law thing...

[Carol Kocian]

On May 13, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Sharon Collier wrote:


I see the internet/emails/ h-costume list as a group of friends.


 Whenever I see something about an e-mail list being a group of  
friends, I imagine sending a party invitation to the entire list...  
No, not quite.  :-)  I see many groups with common interests, some  
members of which are friends, and some are not.


Someone says,I have a book with an interesting picture. Someone  
else wants to borrow the book to look at the picture.


 Would you loan the book to your local friend? Would you drop it  
in the mail to someone you've never met, with the understanding they  
would mail it back when finished with it?


If we were in the same town, the other person could just come to my  
house and look at the book, but since we live hundreds or thousands  
of miles apart, we scan the relevant picture and send to our friend  
to look at.


 Or you could get on Skype and hold it up to your web cam for  
your long-distance friend to see. That way someone can look without  
making a copy for them.


 -Carol

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[h-cost] Subject lines, was Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 9, Issue 144

[Carol Kocian]

 A request — please update subject lines when you change the  
subject! With such a varied range of interests, it helps people to  
know which posts they want to read and which ones to skip.


 The fabric on your site is lovely and I'd hate to have people  
miss it.


 Thank you!
 -Carol


On May 12, 2010, at 6:02 PM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:


Hi Donna,

Usually the process of making a brocade takes 4 weeks from placing  
an order to receiving the item (assuming it were for a Czech  
customer...otherwise you have to add shipping time to your country).


In this case, it will take perhaps longer as my sister who is in  
charge of this is currently in Spain and will be back to work in June.


I suggest you take a look at our webpage through some translator  
(like http://translate.google.com/translate? 
js=yprev=_thl=csie=UTF-8layout=1eotf=1u=www.sartor.czsl=autotl 
=en )
We do have an English version of the webpage, but many information  
is still not translated. We'll have this fixed together with a new  
online shop in July/August).


Zuzana

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www.sartor.cz



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Re: [h-cost] Question of fair use

[Carol Kocian]

On May 12, 2010, at 6:42 PM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:

Tell me one thing. How would be the situation if I asked the museum  
for close up photos of the fabric? I would do the design with help  
of these pictures. The result would be the same. Maybe I will do  
it, I will ask the museum for close up pictures for me to see the  
original.
How on earth can you say which material I used in the end to  
produce the design given to a commercial weaver?
Is there any copyright law regarding reproductions of extant  
garments/textiles?

___
Sartor...custom-made costumes
www.sartor.cz



 It's not copyright, but there are rights of ownership. If you  
are looking to copy that exact textile, then you should be in touch  
with the museum that owns it. If you are designing something inspired  
by it and other textiles, that's a different matter.


 Those writing books will buy originals or study in a museum,  
with specific permission of how they may use their photographs of  
museum objects.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] late 18th century velvet accessories?

[Carol Kocian]

On May 6, 2010, at 7:43 PM, landofoz wrote:

Has anybody got any suggestions on an 18th century accessory that  
would use only one metre of velvet (something to keep warm would  
be good as July is the middle of winter for those of us in the  
southern hemisphere)


Denise B wrote,
Would a rectangle shawl be appropriate?  Cut the piece in half and  
sew the narrow ends together. Trim with lace or fringe or ??



 A shawl would depend on which part of the 18th century. The end  
of the century (90s) saw them creeping in, but not most of the century.


 What part of the century are you aiming for?

 What about a muff?

 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Victorian Hair:

[Carol Kocian]

 There are salons that specialize in long hair, conditioning  
rather than cutting. While they may also have modern sensibilities  
regarding styles, they do know how to handle long lengths. The idea  
of bringing a picture or two is a good one.


 The George Michael Salon in New York has affiliates and also  
trains people who might work in a salon or independently in other  
cities.


 Also check discussion forums for long hair enthusiasts. They  
should be able to recommend someone in your area.


 -Carol


On Apr 28, 2010, at 7:32 AM, Anne wrote:

I would be really interested to hear the result, if you choose this  
approach, because, to be honest, I never had much luck.  My hair is  
just to my waist, and I have found that hairdressers are more  
practised in putting up hair that is to shoulder-blades or  
shorter.  They don't seem to know where to store all the length,  
and weight, before doing fancy stuff with the last 8 inches.


Jean

Penny Ladnier wrote:
This is a thought...take an image of what you want and take it to  
a hairdresser that does bridal styles.  Ask them if they can  
recreate the style.  There are hairdressers that specialize in  
bridal up-dos.


Penny Ladnier (who grew my hair long in the early 1980s to look  
like Laura's hair on General Hospital)


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Re: [h-cost] Look at this photo YIPPEE!!!

[Carol Kocian]

 Congratulations! Were you able to find out about hand-tinting  
of stereoviews? Would it have developed at a different time than hand- 
tinting single photos?


 -Carol


On Apr 6, 2010, at 3:35 AM, Penny Ladnier wrote:

I am now the VERY proud owner of the photo.  I finally decided to  
buy it today.  This is my first photo like this.   The dealer and I  
have been chatting back and forth.  He is very knowledgeable about  
photography history.


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Re: [h-cost] What are these ladies doing? (because we're no longer talking about just the lady in the middle...

[Carol Kocian]

 Regarding the knitting lady, Colleen Humphries from the  
18cWoman list says,


The woman at the back left has two lace bobbins and an out-of- 
proportion bobbin lace pillow, and is holding the bobbins upside  
down.  She *clearly* doesn't know how to make lace, it's something  
of a craft fantasy, at least for that woman, making me wonder about  
the rest.






On Feb 16, 2010, at 10:31 AM, cheryl...@aol.com wrote:

Actually the second lady is using a position more like one would  
use for crochet and her other hand doesn't seem to have a needle as  
much as it seems to be holding taught thread.  Her work resembles  
crocheted lace more than knitting.  Had to get my 2Cent worth.   
It's amazing how much comment this thread has engendered.


Cheryl Odom
Santa Fe, New Mexico

Carol Kocian wrote:

 I'm more curious about the woman who appears to be knitting
something lace on two needles. She has them in that 50s housewife
position with the ends up.


I don't know about '50s housewives - I was taught to knit in 1950s  
England with
the needle ends down - but I have seen a Norwegian lady knitting in  
that
position. As these ladies are presumably Swedish, I guess it's a  
Scandinavian

technique.

Kate Bunting
Librarian  17th century reenactor



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Re: [h-cost] What is this woman making?

[Carol Kocian]

 The same activity, as in needlework? They each seem to have a  
different project. The one on the right is sewing / mending with  
black thread on green fabric. No embroidery hoop. The one second from  
the left, knitting? And the far left lady has an pointy thing but we  
can't see what she is doing with it.


 -Carol


On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:19 PM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote:

All four all seem to be engaged in the same activity and one has a  
frame. The product reminds me of some of the present fancy chenilles.


http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ol-58sQg9RMLMYpBYDFiBg? 
feat=directlink


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Re: [h-cost] What is this woman making?

[Carol Kocian]

On Feb 14, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Charlene Charette wrote:

This is an excerpt from P. Hilleström's A Conversation at  
Drottningholm, 1779 (I wasn't able to find a detailed picture  
online, so I scanned this from a book):


http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ol-58sQg9RMLMYpBYDFiBg? 
feat=directlink


What is the second woman from the right making (using the upright  
rods)? I'm assuming some sort of passementarie?


--Charlene



 Interesting, I've seen hat same set-up for wig making. The hair  
would be attached to the strings, with threads on one rod and the  
other taking up the work.


 The woman in the painting is adding a strand of something, so  
obviously not weaving hair but a similar technique.


 I'm more curious about the woman who appears to be knitting  
something lace on two needles. She has them in that 50s housewife  
position with the ends up.


 Overall I find it a rather amusing image with those supported  
lace collars and keeping their hands busy with work.


 Have you posted the question on the 18cWoman list? People there  
have done more in-depth research of the period and may be able to  
show more sources for the use of that loom.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] OMG! The sale price

[Carol Kocian]

On Feb 10, 2010, at 4:53 PM, Sharon Collier wrote:

No, with our sewing skills, we could make new old photos, and  
pose them any way we liked! I have a friend who knows how to do the  
old colloidal (sp?) type of photography..

(grin) Sharon


 How about the med student who can supply the bodies?  :-)

Is anyone interested in a bunch of old photos? My mom mentioned  
last night (it was her b-day and we were looking over old photos)  
that she had a bunch where she doesn't know the people in them, so  
she's going to toss them. Mostly from the late 1800's through 1950's.



 I hope you find a home for the photos. I'm sure a lot of the  
instant ancestor photos are from a similar situation. All the more  
reason to identify those that we can.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?

[Carol Kocian]

 I've heard of post-mortem photos that are taken of the person  
in a coffin. Are there other examples of them with a dead person  
posed sitting up?


 There is something on the side of her head which could be a  
barrette or could be a head prop or rest of some sort. It does not  
look like it would be sturdy enough if she was dead.


 I agree that her eyes do look focused. There could be other  
reasons why it does not follow the conventions most wedding photos of  
the time, for example a disability preventing hand positions, an  
arranged marriage or cultural reasons why they would not be touching.


 -Carol


On Feb 6, 2010, at 4:45 AM, Sharon Collier wrote:

If you look at the dress, the ribbon that the seller says is  
holding her up is clearly a ribbon at the waist. If it was  
holding her up it would have to go under the veil, but it doesn't  
look as if it is doing that. This looks like any other photo of  
this period, in which the sitters had to sit still for a long time  
while the exposure was being made. Who would want a picture of a  
dead woman bride and what reputable photographer (as this seems to  
be) would agree to do that? The flowers might be in her lap because  
she couldn't hold them still and they would have blurred otherwise.  
And to me, the woman appears to be focused on something, probably  
not the same thing the man was focused on, but who cares? I don't  
think dead people's eyelids are up like that, either.


-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Penny Ladnier
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 1:30 AM
To: h-costume
Subject: [h-cost] Is this real or not?

I found a photo on eBay that is being described as a post-mortem  
bride photo. What do you think, is she death or not?  Read the  
description the seller has of the bride.  The item number is  
380202466338.


Penny Ladnier (who has been snow-bound for two weeks) Owner, The  
Costume

Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com
14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history


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Re: [h-cost] Is this real or not?

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Penny,

 It's still a little tricky — I see jpg artifacts — it's  
different than if you had the photo and did a hi-res scan yourself.  
The white pixels around the flower stems could be from sharpening the  
image file. I see the same effect between the man's sleeve and the  
background, both above and the inner elbow space.


 One odd thing is a paler spot on her right eye/eyelid, maybe a  
damaged spot on the photo? It's a little off to be a highlight, or is  
that another indication of less-than-perfect retouching of the eyes?


 And I was also wondering about that white bar on her left  
temple. I would expect for a hairpin or barrette to have one on each  
side. There are so many white marks on the gent's suit that don't  
look like they belong there, so without the original photo (or a good  
hi-res scan), who knows what is there and what is damage.


 -Carol


On Feb 6, 2010, at 6:49 PM, Penny Ladnier wrote:

Linda Walton sent me the image URL and I have zoomed in on the  
photo.  The buckle on the belt slightly to her left side.  The  
belt's bottom rests and about an inch above the bodice's bottom.   
This seems a bit odd location to me.   Has anyone seen this fashion  
trend?


The flowers are carnations.  The stems' bottom is tucked behind a  
fold in the dress.  They are probably pinned to the belt. On the  
other hand, I do believe the photographer added the flowers later.   
There are no shadows on the dress from the flowers.  For a matter  
of fact, there is a line of lighter gray/ almost white pixels  
around the edge of the flowers.  There are some unusual pixels that  
don't seem to belong.  I am very experienced to working with photos  
at this high of magnification.


Her pupils do seem to be painted.  There is no definition/variation  
in the pixels' color/shades like with normal photos.  Her right eye  
is also closer to the bridge of the nose than the left.  Judging by  
the shadows around her eyes, they are normally open.


The shadow that I saw under her left ear is the chair.

Penny Ladnier
Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites
www.costumegallery.com
14 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history


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Re: [h-cost] mangle RE: An amusing error?

[Carol Kocian]

 With either use of the word, though, it seems that the book was  
not quite right in the order of operations. It's definitely out of  
order for a wringer. I'm not sure what they mean by blued and  
starched by hand. Blueing is added to the water, and even using  
spray starch these days seems like a hand process to me.


 Finally, with a pressing mangle, why would you iron first and  
then use a mangle? I could see, with some items, mangling and then  
touching up some portions with an iron afterward.


 It was interesting, though, to learn that mangle has two  
meanings.


 -Carol


On Jan 18, 2010, at 10:45 AM, Rickard, Patty wrote:

My mother had a machine that she called a mangle. There was a  
bottom piece on which you placed damp clothing or sheets (after the  
wringer), and a top piece which heated up (electrically, I think).  
You could fold shirts and place them on the bottom surface, or you  
could have it roll sheets or other flat things through. You brought  
the top down - it was essentially a large iron. Huge amounts of steam.

Patty

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Sharon Collier

Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 4:57 AM
To: 'Historical Costume'
Subject: Re: [h-cost] An amusing error?

Right, it's not an ironing device, but something to wring out  
clothes. You'd have thought the author would have done his homework!


-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Charlene Charette
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 1:37 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: Re: [h-cost] An amusing error?

Mangle is the British term for what Americans call a wringer.

--Charlene


On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 3:03 AM, Sharon Collier  
sha...@collierfam.com

wrote:
I am reading a book, What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens  
Knew and in the part about laundry, the author says, This made  
laundry day such a chore that many better-off households hired a  
washerwoman to do it, since immense amounts of water had to be  
boiled, the clothes blued and starched by hand, ironed, and then  
put through a mangle, a tablelike contraption with two rollers  
through which you rolled the clothing until it was pressed.  I  
would hate to have him doing my laundry!

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Re: [h-cost] Chalking a line

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 13, 2010, at 2:25 PM, Alexandria Doyle wrote:

I can help but think that running the basting line will take nearly  
as long to do as doing the couching.  I know it won't, I just  
finished the pearling on the collar and I had the pattern drawn out  
of muslin, and basted to the black velvet so I could feel where  
the pearls were to go...


alex



 Thread tracing does take time, but sometimes it's worth it. I  
once had tiny pleats to make on a very woodgy fabric (grain shifted  
easily). The thread tracing took longer than it did to actually  
stitch the pleats, but was the best way to get everything in the  
right place.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 3, 2010, at 5:58 PM, Marjorie Wilser wrote:

You are right, Chris, that the link is helpful; what I was  
originally trying to point out in my  response was that if only  
there were a precise color guide, we could describe colors and be  
understood perfectly by our correspondents (others misunderstood my  
intent). My comment didn't have much to do with historical color  
understanding, however, just with communication :)


== Marjorie Wilser (who still likes the Crayola system!)


 The link Allison just posted
http://www.firemountaingems.com/details.asp?PN=H203271TL
has a Pantone guide for $20.

 As far as colors changing, I see a color forecast:
http://www.firemountaingems.com/trends/fashion_trends.asp? 
docid=PANTONEFORECAST
which probably matches their color book, however the numbers are not  
the same as Pantone for print. If I was talking about PMS 199, is it  
close to 18-1550?


 Maybe if we go to the paint store and get a collection of the  
colors, but then we have to be sure we're comparing Behr to Behr and  
not Behr to Sherwin-Williams.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 1, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:


For one thing, it's Pantone who recommends that the swatches be  
replaced every year. I'm only on my third Pantone fan, and I've  
been working with them for 15 years. When I've replaced them I've  
compared the old and new swatches. They don't fade to speak of  
unless you leave the swatches open on your desk when you are not  
using them, and obviously, the solution is keep them in a closed  
drawer. It may not matter to you if your employer is paying for  
them. And as far as production costs go, using a fan for several  
years instead of one doesn't save much money. Still, it can be done.


 It's a matter of professional tools vs the need for them, and  
how precise does a costumer want to be with color. Design studios and  
printers may well replace their pantone books every year. These days  
many projects do colors with a CMYK build (instead of custom mixed  
ink), and the CMYK can vary on press. When dealing with corporate  
identity colors, it's an expensive mistake to have to reprint. Other  
projects won't be as persnickety, so a slight color shift due to  
aging or fading in the swatchbook won't have an impact.



Do you know what the fabric printing and dyeing industry uses for  
swatch books? Do they use Pantone or something else?


 I don't know about professional fabric printing. The on-demand  
printing (such as Spoonflower) seem to be working it out with the  
efforts of users. This blog
http://blog.mammamadedesigns.com/archive/2008/08/13/spoonflower- 
fabric-development-series-5-color-calibration-part-c.aspx
has a color chart, shown as RGB (at the bottom of the page) and as  
printed fabric (at the top). Even taking into consideration the  
differences in photos, you can see some colors are different.


Here is a more direct example of some color shifts:
http://blog.mammamadedesigns.com/archive/2008/07/18/spoonflower- 
fabric-development-series-5-color-calibration-part-b.aspx

See how the green stems turned out the same color as the green field.

 This is the chart from Spoonflower:
http://blog.spoonflower.com/files/spoonflower_color_chart.tif
Where they removed a chunk of colors that tend to shift. And while  
they removed reds, I was seeing changes in blues and greens in the  
Mamamade example.


 The Mamamade blog goes through a lot of color information.

 Something I can imagine happening — say we have a vintage  
garment that's a print fabric that we want to repro. So we scan the  
fabric and then correct for any fading or yellowing. That's not  
enough, the colors also need to be redone to allow for the shift.  
Also subtle differences in color may not come out, such as in the  
calibration example. What if the fabric I want is a multitone madder  
print — some tones will come out the same.


 The PMS book or other color match system is not going to help  
here. The costumer needs to get color swatches of fabric printed on  
the actual intended fabric, on the machine that will be used. Luckily  
it's available.


 Also once calibrated, a user could also calibrate her monitor  
to more closely match what she will get from Spoonflower. It can be  
set up as a profile so I could toggle between that and a traditional  
color profile, to change back  forth depending on the project.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 2, 2010, at 2:05 PM, Kimiko Small wrote:


Then may I suggest we drop this topic asap? Please?
 Kimiko


 I'm still interested in hearing other experiences with using  
color systems regarding historic costuming.


 One other benefit for those who work with printers — if it's a  
web printer (printing from a large roll of paper rather than sheet- 
fed) you can ask for a butt roll. That's the end of the roll, still  
with a good amount of paper on it. When they change rolls, they do  
not let the old one run out, as it takes time to re-thread the press.


 Anyway, there's plenty of paper left over on a butt roll and  
it's great for making or altering patterns.





But hey, I'm not in the mood to play one-upmanship games.



Fran


 Sounds like a fine resolution for the new year. You're the one  
who said my comments were erroneous and that people should go  
elsewhere for information. Maybe it's Mercury Retrograde having a go  
at us, because I thought it was possible to have a discussion on the  
topic.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 1, 2010, at 3:59 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:


On 1/1/2010 12:39 PM, Marjorie Wilser wrote:


Then there's the Pantone system for printing. Trouble is, they change
the colors according to popularity, and the swatch books are  
expensive.


Pantone doesn't change the colors as far as I know, or at least not  
unless it's over a long time frame. The colors are only numbered,  
no names. Pantone is not a guide to historical color names, or any  
other kind of color names.  The whole point is that you and the  
printer each have a Pantone book or fan. You say you want color #X  
on the cover, and that's what you get. You don't have to specify  
the edition of the Pantone book or fan.


 Thanks, Fran, for this interesting resource!

 Fran is correct regarding Pantone, however the books are  
expensive and recommended to be replaced every year. It was developed  
specifically for the printing industry — there are some basic ink  
colors that are mixed in various combinations to get the colors in  
the book. There have been colors added, and particularly when a  
company uses a new color and wants it consistent for their corporate  
identity. Because, of course, they can't use one of the colors that  
Pantone already has in the book.  :-)


 The RGB colors listed on the page are helpful, but will depend  
on the calibration of the computer screen. I noticed the grays had a  
reddish hue on my monitor, so I adjusted it and the shades of purple  
make more sense now.


 Besides the historic color names, how is this useful to h- 
costume? Say someone has a fabric for sale, and even with an image  
online I'm not sure if it will match/coordinate with something I  
have, or certain shades of puce make me look ill. An understood color  
system means they can give me a number and I can see the exact shade.


 The downside of a printing ink system is that fabric dyes are  
different. One example of this is Spoonflower — spoonflower.com, they  
print custom fabric from your designs. A friend has seen color shifts  
between what she wanted and what she got, so it is very much worth  
getting a fabric sample before ordering yardage!


 Printers can be calibrated too. If I'm looking at those  
swatches and decide to print it out, it may different than when you  
print it. Not to mention my monitor is showing me colors of light,  
and paper or fabric shows me colors of inks or dyes, the additive vs  
subtractive color. Two colors can look different on my monitor and  
then print out looking the same.


 As far as the accuracy of the colors, who knows what they were  
looking at for the earlier historic shades. Garment colors can fade.  
How exact of a shade do you need? Just look at how many shades of  
teal they have:

http://www.anthus.com/Colors/Colors_T.html
or terra cotta.

 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Online dictionary of colors with color swatches

[Carol Kocian]

On Jan 1, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:

Fran is correct regarding Pantone, however the books are expensive  
and recommended to be replaced every year. It was developed  
specifically for the printing industry — there are some basic ink  
colors that are mixed in various combinations to get the colors in  
the book. There have been colors added, and particularly when a  
company uses a new color and wants it consistent for their  
corporate identity. Because, of course, they can't use one of the  
colors that Pantone already has in the book.  :-)


Your comments are erroneous in some respects, but as this is not a  
list on color printing and the Pantone system, I suggest that  
anyone who wants information on offset printing and color proofs  
for it consult sources on book production.


 You're welcome to PM me on that. I've worked in magazine,  
advertising and book production (on the print end) for many years.




Besides the historic color names, how is this useful to h-costume?


Is there something wrong with suggesting a link to an interesting  
source for color information? And letting h-costume members--if  
they wish--take a few minutes to see if it is useful to them in any  
way?  If you think the site linked to is erroneous or incomplete,  
or you want material added to it, I suggest that you contact the  
website owners. I am not responsible for the content of their site.  
If you want a website specifically oriented toward colors for  
fabric printing, or historic costume, I'd advise you to search the  
web for it and post a link.  I'm sure we'll all be glad to see it.


 I was hoping to continue some discussion on it, because I'm  
interested in color. I offered a couple of examples and hoped others  
would do so, too. It was meant to be a stimulating question, not a  
suggestion that something was wrong there.


 And also I did send a note to the site owner. Upon a closer  
examination I noticed a few colors had a pink cast to them,  
particularly the white and some light greens, which ought not to be  
pink at all. I checked a few color configurations, so I know it's not  
my monitor.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] How to do a regency-era neckline

[Carol Kocian]

 That was my thought, too — not a single twisted tube, but  
faked somehow. I thought it might be cut into a separate piece for  
each twist, but I suppose two strips could work as Sharon suggests.


 How about that front embellishment? Is that like a really tiny  
spaghetti strap, maybe with a cord inside or the seam allowance to  
puff it out?


 -Carol


On Oct 25, 2009, at 4:33 AM, Sharon Collier wrote:

I'm probably completely wrong on this, but I looked at the picture  
at 400%
zoom, and it looks like 2 pieces wrapped around each other. That  
way you
could have one finished edge (maybe by folding the fabric over the  
cord and
sewing, leaving the 2 raw edges one side) which was then sewn to  
the neck
edge. Having 2 strips of piped edging means you could fudge the  
rolling

and make it look like it spiraled, when in fact it didn't.
But like I said, I'm probably wrong.

-Original Message-
From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume- 
boun...@indra.com] On

Behalf Of Aylwen Garden
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2009 12:30 AM
To: Historical Costume
Subject: [h-cost] How to do a regency-era neckline

I'm trying to reproduce the neckline at
http://www.sensibility.com/vintageimages/1800s/images/ 
1820sdress.jpg . The
trim has piping on each side before it is rolled and tacked onto  
the dress.
Can anyone show/tell me how this is done, so that it doesn't show  
any raw

edges?
Bye for now,

Aylwen


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Re: [h-cost] Pattern Question - 18th C. Caraco - Butterick 3640

[Carol Kocian]

Hi Laurie,

I'm looking at making do with Butterick 3640, view A.  I do realize  
that this is one of the Big 4 companies' silly attempts at  
historical accuracy, and therefore, not period correct.  Some of it  
I can live with, and some I can fix.  I'm trying to decide what  
really needs fixing.


 Actually, some of the patterns are being made by better  
designers and more period correct. That one looks like it's meant to  
go over stays, which is a great start. Fabric and trimming choice is  
what will really make a difference in the look of the gown.


 If the Butterick were worn over period skirt supports, how far  
would it still be from anything that actually existed in period?   
Would the changes to make it more period be reasonable or not worth  
the effort?  I've been browsing through paintings of the period, but  
have not found anything that resembles the Butterick.


 Depends on the decade and the supports you are considering. The  
photos look good to me. There are two styles, the casual jacket and  
the gown that can be more formal. A long gown, plain, can also be  
middle or lower class.


Also, as pictured on the pattern envelope, is the high contrast of  
the yellow ground of the upper dress/caracao to the blue petticoat  
correct for period?  My fabric has a deep red ground and I'm trying  
to decide if the skirt/petticoat should be something in the same  
shade of red, maybe solid, or if I should go for a contrast.


 The blue looks a bit loud. A gown with a matching (same fabric)  
petticoat is more formal. Not matching (contrast or coordinating) is  
an undress look. The better fabric would be the upper garment — print  
vs. solid, for example.


 What year in the 18thC are you aiming for? That would help  
determine how you can use the pattern. You said late, and in the 90s  
fashion changed quite a bit, heading toward the Federal/Regency/ 
Directorie lines.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Color dye mixing

[Carol Kocian]

 Test it first. I once had some teal wool that I wanted to dye  
navy, and the dye did nothing. Then I treated it with a color  
remover, and got a school-bus yellow, which took the navy dye perfectly.


 Whatever that teal dye was, it saturated the fibers so nothing  
more could be added. A test would have meant just a little bit of dye  
and a lot less agitation of the wool, although it came through ok.


 -Carol


On Sep 25, 2009, at 4:21 PM, Alexandria Doyle wrote:

I have a length of wool that is a fushia color that I would like to  
take to burgundy.  any suggestions on the colors to add to the  
fushia to get burgundy?  I was thinking blue, but don't want to go  
purple...


alex


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Re: [h-cost] Fabric suggestions - Marie Antoinette 1786 portrait

[Carol Kocian]

On Aug 13, 2009, at 9:29 AM, annbw...@aol.com wrote:

Yes, that is the infamous chemise gown and would have been made of  
lightweight linen or cotton--supposed Marie Antoinette adopted the  
style worn by the Creoles in the hot and steamy Caribbean. It is  
possible that, during the time, an even more sheer linen or cotton  
was used for the ruffles, although I had always thought the sleeve  
ruffle was a continuation of the sleeve made by drawing it up.  
There is a pattern for an extant English chemise dress in Cut of  
Women's Clothes.


 There are extant items that do have an applied ruffle of finer  
fabric. For example, there are shifts with the sleeve gathered into a  
band and then a ruffle added to the band.


 In the images, the double ruffle at the neck would be applied.  
A really narrow cuff band would make it easier to control the way the  
sleeve ruffle falls. Just using a drawstring, the fullness might  
migrate toward the elbow, affecting the ruffle.


 Even though the look is styled after something simple, I can  
imagine that Marie Antionette's dressmakers would do a more precise  
job of it.


 The hemmed edges look like hemmed edges to me. Bias tape was  
not in use at the time, even binding an uneven edge they were using a  
flat woven tape.


 For suitable fabrics, I do remember seeing fine shirt-quality  
linen, but it's pretty expensive. It might be easier (and cheaper) to  
find a good shirt cotton. Unfortunately, when looking for sheers,  
handkerchief linen is sheer but coarse. Have you searched for cotton  
lawn? Some of the home decorating catalogs  stores carry sheer  
cotton curtains.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Fabric suggestions - Marie Antoinette 1786 portrait

[Carol Kocian]

 That's a chemise dress. It would have been linen or cotton.  
Yes,they made it that sheer back then.



On Aug 12, 2009, at 9:34 PM, Laurie Taylor wrote:


Hello,

My mad scramble to get myself ready for Costume College left me  
with a new

goal, but I'm very uncertain about fabric.

I want to make this gown:
http://www.ladyreading.net/marieantoinette/big/marie14a.jpg

I know that there are other copies of this image on the web, but  
this was

the first one I found just now.

What fabric would you use for this?  It is certainly semi-sheer,  
more so

than voile.  Silk chiffon would be too soft, silk organza possibly too
stiff?  I just can't decide.

Laurie T.
Phoenix

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Re: [h-cost] Venetian Carnevale Gown

[Carol Kocian]

On Aug 11, 2009, at 4:05 PM, Michael Hamilton wrote:

My wife and I are living in Italy for a few years, and have made a  
goal to go to Carnevale in Venice next February.


 What a wonderful opportunity!

I've been searching the web for examples and patterns to work from  
for her gown.  But, most of what turns up seems to be French  
fashion. Maybe it's true that the French fashion dominated Europe  
in the 18th century, esp. the late 18th century, which is the era  
I'm looking at. But, is there anything particularly Italian or  
even Venetian with respect dress?


 Venetian images tend to be of Carnavale, usually with masks  
and an over-the-top sort of look. They also look a bit fuller to my  
eye, but that may be the fancy dress / costume aspect of them.


In particular, so far most of what I've found is the Robe a la  
Francese or sack dress.  I really like the sleeves, with the lace  
trim, and the front, with the pointed stomacher and the layered  
skirts sweeping open in the front.  But, I really don't like the  
sack part in the back.  I've looked at patterns for a Robe a la  
Inglese, and Polonese, but, really don't like it as much in  
general.  In particular, I find the skirt isn't as nice.


 You said late century; how late? The popularity of these styles  
changed through the decades.


I am honestly not totally committed to historical accuracy, but,  
I'd like to not embarrass myself, either.


 In that case are you really concerned about a specific historic  
era? You could pick the style of gown you like and embellish it.  
Besides masks, they seemed to use fans and hats to conceal identity.


In particular, I'm a little dubious about having a separate  
stomacher, rather than something more one-piece.


 Stomachers are another aspect of fashion that were in use for  
some years but not the entire century. The benefit of a separate  
stomacher, however, is that the fit of the gown can be adjusted. Also  
you can make more than one and change the look of the ensemble.


I'd even stoop to a back zipper if I had to  (I hear your gasps of  
horror and ask for your patience, again).


 Why in the back? Gowns were front-fastening for the most part,  
so why not do that? Do you have to get in and out of the gown  
quickly? You already said you are making stays. Stays are adjustable  
so the gown needs some flexibility in the fit, too. Even if you used  
hooks  eyes instead of straight pins, you might find they need to be  
moved from year to year.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] early 17th century stays and bodice

[Carol Kocian]

 We are used to certain rules in dress, but sometimes ethnic  
(anything not English) will break those rules. The image you showed  
looks like a jacket. There were stays with detachable sleeves that  
are meant to be an outer garment, up to the middle of the 18thC. For  
17thC, there are boned jackets that appear to not need stays  
underneath. For stays and a wool jacket, it depends on the structure  
and fit of the jacket — does it need a few bones to be smooth? You  
may decide to do this after it's made.


 The pattern draft someone put on Flickr is lifted from _Corsets  
 Crinolines_ by Norah Waugh.


 I made one of those. The problem I had was, with the armscyes  
so low, the lacing gapped at the bustline due to the pressure of the  
armscyes. I made mine with cording, and with stiffer boning (or  
boning down the center front, at least) perhaps that would not happen.


 -Carol


On Aug 9, 2009, at 10:38 AM, Zuzana Kraemerova wrote:



Hi, I am going to do an early 17th century woman's middle class  
dress, location: Bohemia (today's Czech Republic, east of Germany  
if someone doesn't know), time: 1618-1648. I want it to look like  
this:


http://link.library.utoronto.ca/hollar/digobject.cfm? 
Idno=Hollar_k_1716query=Hollar_k_1716size=largetype=browse


I have some questions regarding the bodice and stays. First of all,  
I assume I should use stays (I prefer stays to boned bodices).  
Then, if I use stays, shall I do some light boning to the bodice as  
well? It'll be light wool lined with linen.


I don't really know how shall the stays look like. I have only  
found this: http://www.manchestergalleries.org/the-collections/ 
search-the-collection/image.php? 
EMUSESSID=bf812423145fbba6ba4d441b7ec2ec13imageirn=400682r=51445954  
from this era, but I'm not sure about the style...I thought I  
should do some traditional type of stays with lacing at the  
back...do you have any pictures of other surviving garments  
(corsets) from the 1st half of 17th century?


The bodice should be pointed, cut at the waist, probably with tabs,  
and with something like princess seams. I think I should keep to  
this pattern:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/hkoslov/1354051356/in/ 
set-72157601949667448/


For the stays and bodice, but again, it's a bit too late.

What do you think? Thanks,

Zuzana









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Re: [h-cost] Bowing to the inevitable

[Carol Kocian]

On Aug 4, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Lavolta Press wrote:


I really can't see reading Twitter, it sounds like my idea of Hell.


 You add each person you want to follow — so you can control  
the signal to noise ratio. I imagine it's handy for people who are  
away from their computers for most of the day since one can set it up  
to send the tweets as text messages to the phone. In which case they  
would have a data plan for the phone...


 Some people post maybe three interesting things in a week, and  
others let the world know each day that they woke up and had  
breakfast, showered, had lunch, etc... I don't follow those. It could  
also be useful to share experiences while on vacation or at a  
convention.


 I very much prefer the messages to come in through e-mail.  
There are so many forums now where you have to go to a different web  
page to check them. Some I check every day, others maybe once a month  
and next thing you know it's been a few months since I looked at it.


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] Temporary facial hair

[Carol Kocian]

 Don't they offer beards outside, like the stoning scene in Life  
of Brian?   :-D


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] CC27 historical judge talks about workmanship and historical

[Carol Kocian]

On May 9, 2009, at 8:11 AM, debloughcostu...@aol.com wrote:
But period correct fabrics are more than available (easily), like  
fulled wools, (admittedly I do live near several of the best wool  
mills in Europe),


 Must be nice!   :-)

 It's all a matter of compromise — the correct fulled wools may  
be more expensive, or perhaps someone wants a particular color and  
can't find it in the right weight. I've thrown wool into the dyepot  
and then had it come out fuzzier than it started.



and  flat felled seams are just as easy as french on a sewing machine.


 However there is the idea that machine sewing should not be  
visible in pre-machine tie periods. Of course there is also the  
argument that good backstitching looks like machine sewing on the top  
side.  :-)  And then there is finding a linen thread smooth enough to  
run through a machine.


Overlocking may be necessary, but only if you're using the wrong  
finish or technique, and hand overcasting using something like  
whipstitch is just as easy,  if a little more time consuming (not  
much when you take into account the setting  up of the machine) -  
and I can't think offhand of a period when overcasting  wouldn't be  
correct - it was around during early medieval times and tudor  
times,  and it still was by victorian and mid 20th century.


 While overcasting can be found, it still depends on which  
garment and/or which fabric. 18th century shifts and shirts were flat- 
felled, for example.


 In reenactment, we have the luxury of concentrating on one time  
period and can learn the details. I'm a big fan of basic standards  
for groups. Within that, individuals learn and make their own  
compromises. There may be a conflict of technique vs. the overall  
look — the machine French seam with the non-offensive exterior  
appearance.


 Judges of competitions have a difficult job of determining  
which compromise is better than another, not to mention comparing  
work portraying different time periods!


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] CC27 historical judge talks about workmanship and historical

[Carol Kocian]

Judges of competitions have a difficult job of determining  
which compromise is better than another, not to mention comparing  
work portraying different time periods!



On May 9, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Käthe Barrows wrote:

Don't start thinking one period is compared to another period in  
Historical masquerades.  They aren't.  Entrants with simple  
costumes are often daunted by the big mid-Victorian or high  
Georgian stuff. But their presentations can be just as compelling  
as Anne Bolyn's was this year (I still get goosebumps).  And just  
as simple as the 1959 Dior.


 I didn't say the time periods were compared in that sense. I  
said the work. I suppose some of it is a documentation issue. Since  
we were talking about seam finishes, for example, information on that  
is not available for all time periods. For some periods there are  
extant garments and sewing manuals. For others, all we have are  
illustrations.


Given that there are more things to have to sew for an 1870s or  
1880s outfit, the simple Medieval entrant could point to raising  
the period breed of sheep, and to hand spinning, hand weaving, hand  
dying, hand embroidery, and hand stitched construction, none of  
which were common practice for rich city women in the Industrial  
Revolution.  And good fit was good fit, whenever it was.


 So you're saying that judging these very different skills  
against each other is not difficult?


 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] CC27 historical judge talks about workmanship and historical interpretation

[Carol Kocian]

On May 8, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Käthe Barrows wrote:

Of course, there are periods where a raw edge is more authentic  
than finished edges.


But if you'd documented the lack of seam finish, and if your other  
hand-sewing was good, the lack of seam finish would have looked  
deliberate, not like an oversight.



 One difficulty is that cloth was fulled much better in various  
historic periods than what's available now. There are some fulled  
fabrics available, but more expensive. Anyway, as pointed out  
earlier, sometimes raw edges are appropriate.


 So what happens when someone uses a non-period appropriate seam  
finish to accommodate a not-quite-period fabric? Frequently for  
18thC, reenactors will make shifts with French seams (an easy finish  
with machine sewing), but flat-fell is the way they were done at the  
time.


 Likewise with sergeing, would that be better than a raw edge?

 -Carol
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Re: [h-cost] 18th century Tricorn hats ....round heads...not!...maybe

[Carol Kocian]

 The purpose of the point over the left eye was so the musket  
barrel would not hit it.


 There are probably caricatures of hats being worn back on the  
head, but the fashion was straight.


 I remember hearing that 17thC hats were round rather than oval,  
and the distortion when worn caused the fashionable undulation of the  
brim. That doesn't happen when the brim is cocked up. Stretching the  
hat to oval will change the shape a bit, but not the the extent that  
it's visible with a free brim.


 Carol


On Apr 15, 2009, at 6:36 AM, Kate Bunting wrote:

I think they were designed to be worn straight. When I did 18th  
century re-enactment 30 years ago, we were told that soldiers' hats  
should be worn with the front point an inch above the left eyebrow.


Kate Bunting
Librarian  17th century reenactor

--

Not especially my period, but were they worn straight on the head?  
If you
wear a hat tilted back so it sits where an alice band would be,  
rather than
around the crown of your head, then the crown of the hat can have a  
circular

rather than oval profile.

Claire

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