RE: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
Thanks! That makes a lot of sense. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Heather Rose Jones Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 10:07 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German > On Friday 17 February 2006 12:11 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote: [snip] > >> There isn't so much a "problem" with the neckline as that it's a >> rather unusually shaped neckline. The particular angle of the >> photograph is also not very good for seeing what's going on with the >> neck. Asymmetric "side-opening" necklines are quite common among the >> surviving garments of this era (what few there are). On Feb 17, 2006, at 12:29 AM, Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote: > OK, so I'm showing my ignorance, but why "side-opening" necklines? > I'd think > they'd be more difficult than symmetrical, center front openings. > Sharon > What follows is largely off-the-cuff speculation, but the answer is most likely to lie in how these openings developed historically. The most common neck opening configuration of the Roman Empire and sub- Roman era was a horizontal slit, sometimes with slight dishing on the front side of the opening. In garments woven in one piece on wide vertical looms, this slit could be created during the weaving complete with selveges (on the loom, it would be positioned vertically during weaving). Modifications to this neckline style in the early medieval period include a lot of things other than center-front slits, and seem to have developed from different motivations and for different purposes. Examples include: Narrowing the opening-as-worn by fastening the front and back edges together closer to the (wearer's) neck, as we see in the 8th century tunic associated with St. Ebbo, where there is a button-and-loop closure on each shoulder. A double layer of fabric in the body of the garment, with vertical slits in the layers on alternate sides of the neck, each fastening at the top, so that when closed the inner and outer fabrics overlap and there's no direct "hole" from the outside to the inside of the garment. This is seen in the very detailed technical drawings of the 11th c. Danish "Viborg shirt" and also appears to be the underlying construction in the 12th c. alb of William II of SIcily (another garment where the decorative parts are original but the garment has been re-made at various times). If you visualize enlarged neck openings developing from a horizontal- slit opening rather than a circular opening, then if you start the vertical slit at the side of the existing horizontal slit, you end up with only one "corner" to deal with, rather than the two corners you get if you position the vertical slit in center front. Also, a number of the early side-opening necklines incorporate a decorative vertical band as part of the slit, and garments of the early medieval period often already had a vertical decorative band approximately at the side of the neck opening, deriving from the clavii. Just a few thoughts on the topic. Heather -- Heather Rose Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.heatherrosejones.com LJ:hrj ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
On Friday 17 February 2006 12:11 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote: [snip] There isn't so much a "problem" with the neckline as that it's a rather unusually shaped neckline. The particular angle of the photograph is also not very good for seeing what's going on with the neck. Asymmetric "side-opening" necklines are quite common among the surviving garments of this era (what few there are). On Feb 17, 2006, at 12:29 AM, Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote: OK, so I'm showing my ignorance, but why "side-opening" necklines? I'd think they'd be more difficult than symmetrical, center front openings. Sharon What follows is largely off-the-cuff speculation, but the answer is most likely to lie in how these openings developed historically. The most common neck opening configuration of the Roman Empire and sub- Roman era was a horizontal slit, sometimes with slight dishing on the front side of the opening. In garments woven in one piece on wide vertical looms, this slit could be created during the weaving complete with selveges (on the loom, it would be positioned vertically during weaving). Modifications to this neckline style in the early medieval period include a lot of things other than center-front slits, and seem to have developed from different motivations and for different purposes. Examples include: Narrowing the opening-as-worn by fastening the front and back edges together closer to the (wearer's) neck, as we see in the 8th century tunic associated with St. Ebbo, where there is a button-and-loop closure on each shoulder. A double layer of fabric in the body of the garment, with vertical slits in the layers on alternate sides of the neck, each fastening at the top, so that when closed the inner and outer fabrics overlap and there's no direct "hole" from the outside to the inside of the garment. This is seen in the very detailed technical drawings of the 11th c. Danish "Viborg shirt" and also appears to be the underlying construction in the 12th c. alb of William II of SIcily (another garment where the decorative parts are original but the garment has been re-made at various times). If you visualize enlarged neck openings developing from a horizontal- slit opening rather than a circular opening, then if you start the vertical slit at the side of the existing horizontal slit, you end up with only one "corner" to deal with, rather than the two corners you get if you position the vertical slit in center front. Also, a number of the early side-opening necklines incorporate a decorative vertical band as part of the slit, and garments of the early medieval period often already had a vertical decorative band approximately at the side of the neck opening, deriving from the clavii. Just a few thoughts on the topic. Heather -- Heather Rose Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.heatherrosejones.com LJ:hrj ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
On Friday 17 February 2006 2:05 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote: > On Feb 16, 2006, at 9:29 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > [snip] > > I'm familiar with asymmetric necklines (the color photograph on > > Cynthia Virtue's page to which I referred the original poster has one, in > > fact). But the black and white photo in question appears to have an extra > > band appearing > > in the middle of what looks like a *symmetrical* neckline. > > Yeah, the decorative band has a deep "V" on the (viewer's) left, but > then the right side of the "V" merges into a squared-off U on the > right. The "U" part is deeper and is the actual opening. One > problem in interpreting this garment is that -- if I'm remembering > correctly -- the decorative bands are the only original elements and > have been re-applied to different bodies over the years. I didn't know that. If that's the case, it would explain the oddity pretty well--it always looked to me like an out-of-place band of trim anyway. Thanks for the comment. -- Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Physics is like sex; sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."--Richard Feynman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
OK, so I'm showing my ignorance, but why "side-opening" necklines? I'd think they'd be more difficult than symmetrical, center front openings. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Catherine Olanich Raymond Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:30 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German On Friday 17 February 2006 12:11 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote: [snip] > There isn't so much a "problem" with the neckline as that it's a > rather unusually shaped neckline. The particular angle of the > photograph is also not very good for seeing what's going on with the > neck. Asymmetric "side-opening" necklines are quite common among the > surviving garments of this era (what few there are). I'm familiar with asymmetric necklines (the color photograph on Cynthia Virtue's page to which I referred the original poster has one, in fact). But the black and white photo in question appears to have an extra band appearing in the middle of what looks like a *symmetrical* neckline. Definitely a bad camera angle, that. :-) -- Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Physics is like sex; sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."--Richard Feynman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
On Feb 16, 2006, at 9:29 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: On Friday 17 February 2006 12:11 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote: [snip] There isn't so much a "problem" with the neckline as that it's a rather unusually shaped neckline. The particular angle of the photograph is also not very good for seeing what's going on with the neck. Asymmetric "side-opening" necklines are quite common among the surviving garments of this era (what few there are). I'm familiar with asymmetric necklines (the color photograph on Cynthia Virtue's page to which I referred the original poster has one, in fact). But the black and white photo in question appears to have an extra band appearing in the middle of what looks like a *symmetrical* neckline. Yeah, the decorative band has a deep "V" on the (viewer's) left, but then the right side of the "V" merges into a squared-off U on the right. The "U" part is deeper and is the actual opening. One problem in interpreting this garment is that -- if I'm remembering correctly -- the decorative bands are the only original elements and have been re-applied to different bodies over the years. Heather -- Heather Rose Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.heatherrosejones.com LJ:hrj ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
On Friday 17 February 2006 12:11 am, Heather Rose Jones wrote: [snip] > There isn't so much a "problem" with the neckline as that it's a > rather unusually shaped neckline. The particular angle of the > photograph is also not very good for seeing what's going on with the > neck. Asymmetric "side-opening" necklines are quite common among the > surviving garments of this era (what few there are). I'm familiar with asymmetric necklines (the color photograph on Cynthia Virtue's page to which I referred the original poster has one, in fact). But the black and white photo in question appears to have an extra band appearing in the middle of what looks like a *symmetrical* neckline. Definitely a bad camera angle, that. :-) -- Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Physics is like sex; sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."--Richard Feynman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
On Feb 16, 2006, at 7:32 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: On Thursday 16 February 2006 3:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope someone can assist me. One of the members of my "household" wants to take a look at what a 10th to the 11th C. German man would have worn. I tried to look through the net - but must not of worded my search correctly because I could not find anything. Try the page I have given the URL for below. There's a sumptious color picture of a royal dalmatic (i.e., a tunic) in the Kunsthistorische Museum, Vienna from about 1130 C.E. (it's about a third of the way down the page). An ordinary German man would not have worn anything of silk, or with such sumptuous embroidery, but the cut likely would have been similar. There's a black-and-white photo of an earlier German tunic on the same page, but there's a problem with the neckline as it's shown there--you'll see what I mean if you look at it. There isn't so much a "problem" with the neckline as that it's a rather unusually shaped neckline. The particular angle of the photograph is also not very good for seeing what's going on with the neck. Asymmetric "side-opening" necklines are quite common among the surviving garments of this era (what few there are). Heather -- Heather Rose Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.heatherrosejones.com LJ:hrj ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
On Feb 16, 2006, at 12:14 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope someone can assist me. One of the members of my "household" wants to take a look at what a 10th to the 11th C. German man would have worn. I tried to look through the net - but must not of worded my search correctly because I could not find anything. Would the German people at this time be considered the Franks? Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm trying hard to get more of my group to join this list. :-) There are a few surviving garments form Germany during this era. On the ecclesiastical side, there are fairly extensive sets of grave clothes from St. Ulrich (at Augsburg) and from Pope Clement II (at Bamberg). Surviving secular clothing from 10-11th c. Germany primarily include some of the earliest items associated with the Holy Roman Emperors, including some embroidered bands from a tunic, several half-circular cloaks, and a pair of full length cloth hose. Publications covering some of these garments include: Bayerischen Nationalmuseum. 1955. Sakrale Gewänder des Mittelalters. Ausstellung im Bayerischen Nationalmuseum München. Bernhart, Joseph. 1955. "Bischof Udalrich von Augsburg" in Augusta: 955-1955. Verlag Hermann Rinn. Müller-Christensen, Sigrid. 1953. "Konservierung alter Textilien" in Deutsche Kunst und Denkmalpflege, 1953/1:28-35. Müller-Christensen, Sigrid. 1955. "Die Konservierung der Augsburger Ulrichsgewänder" in Deutsche Kunst und Denkmalpflege, 1955/2:111-116. Müller-Christensen, Sigrid. 1960. Das Grab des Papstes Clemens II. im Dom zu Bamberg. Verlag F. Bruckmann, München. Muthesius, Anna. 1997. Byzantine Silk Weaving AD 400 to AD 1200. Verlag Fassbaender, Vienna. Ritz, J.M. 1955. "Ausstellung Sakraler Gewänder des Mittelalters in München" in Deutsche Kunst und Denkmalpflege, 1955/2:117-120. Schramm, Percy Ernst & Florentine Mutherich. 1962. Denkmale der deutschen Konige und Kaiser. Prestel Verlag, München. "Textilien in Schwaben" in Suevia Sacra. 1973.51-216, pl. 188-214. Wardwell, Anne E. 1974. "Archaeology and Medieval Textiles" given at Irene Emery Roundtable on Mueseum Textiles. Heather -- Heather Rose Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.heatherrosejones.com LJ:hrj ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
On Thursday 16 February 2006 3:14 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >I hope someone can assist me. One of the members of my "household" > wants to take a look at what a 10th to the 11th C. German man would have > worn. I tried to look through the net - but must not of worded my search > correctly because I could not find anything. Try the page I have given the URL for below. There's a sumptious color picture of a royal dalmatic (i.e., a tunic) in the Kunsthistorische Museum, Vienna from about 1130 C.E. (it's about a third of the way down the page). An ordinary German man would not have worn anything of silk, or with such sumptuous embroidery, but the cut likely would have been similar. There's a black-and-white photo of an earlier German tunic on the same page, but there's a problem with the neckline as it's shown there--you'll see what I mean if you look at it. http://www.virtue.to/articles/extant.html > Would the German people at this time be considered the Franks? No. The Franks had become associated with the area we now call France by then. > Any > suggestions would be helpful. I'm trying hard to get more of my group to > join this list. :-) I highly recommend it! It's one of my favorite lists. -- Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Physics is like sex; sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."--Richard Feynman ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
I hope someone can assist me. One of the members of my "household" wants to take a look at what a 10th to the 11th C. German man would have worn. I tried to look through the net - but must not of worded my search correctly because I could not find anything. Would the German people at this time be considered the Franks? Any suggestions would be helpful. I'm trying hard to get more of my group to join this list. :-) Roscelin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] 10th - 11th C. German
I hope someone can assist me. One of the members of my "household" wants to take a look at what a 10th to the 11th C. German. craftsman would have worn. I tried to look through the net - but must not of worded my search correctly because I could not find anything. Thanks! Roscelin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
