Re: [h-cost] Fabric dying (fwd)
At 08:16 AM 7/25/2005, you wrote: But I don't know when logwood came to be used as a dye so the time frame you are talking about is important. I was talking to a friend of mine about blue dyes, as I watched Troy and just fell in love with the bright blues they used. Unfortunately, I've yet to find out if that blue they used was a natural dye, or like most movie costumes, modern cobalt blue dye. Anyways, my friend sent me a number of links on dyeing, mostly about blue or purpura dyes. Here is one of the links he sent that has a timeline of when dyes were used by what countries. It's actually a quilter's site. IMPORTANT DATES IN FABRIC HISTORY http://threadsintyme.tripod.com/id63.htm Here's the pertinent text on logwood: 1614 "Logwood" is developed from (species Haematoxylon campechianum), tree of the pea family (Fabaceae), native to Central America and the West Indies. The name is sometimes applied also to Condalia obovata, a tree of the buckthorn family (Rhamnaceae) native to southwestern North America. H. campechianum grows 9-15 m (30-50 feet) tall and has a short, crooked trunk. The leaves are pinnately compound (feather-formed), with rather oval leaflets. The small yellow flowers grow in a cluster from the leaf axil (upper angle between branch and leaf stem). The wood is heavy and extremely hard. A black dye, also called logwood, is obtained from the heartwood. I see from this listing that Brazilwood is available earlier: 1321 The East Indies and India export Brazilwood. Later Brazilwood becomes a source of dye for textiles. Brazilwood is a dense, compact dye wood from any of various tropical trees whose extracts yield bright crimson and deep purple colors. In ancient and medieval times, the brazilwood imported to Europe from the Middle East was Caesalpinia braziliensis ) and other species of Caesalpinia. Caesalpinia echinata (called pau-brasil in Portuguese) is indigenous to the Brazilian coast and played a role in the naming of that country. I only wish the site gave citation to where this timeline came from. But it is very interesting to read. Kimiko ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fabric dying
Roscelin wrote: Can someone give me a name of a good book > on medieval dyes that I may be able to find at my local library? The > dye recipes I am looking for are a pink (more of a dusty rose) and a > bluish violet. Depending on what time period you are researching, two sources that I found very useful when I was researching what dyes would have been used to achieve specific colors for a 14th century Florentine dress are: Brunello, F. _The Art of Dyeing In The History of Mankind. Vicenza : Neri Pozza Editore, 1973. The Plictho: Instructions in the Art of the Dyers Which Teaches the Dyeing of Woolen Cloths, Linens, Cottons, and Silk by the Great Art as Well as by the Common; Translation of the First Edition of 1548 by Sidney M. Edelstein and Hector C. Borghetty. Cambridge, MA: The M.I.T. Press, (1969). You may also want to look at these sources: The Red Dyes: Cochineal, Madder, and Murex Purple A World Tour of Textile Techniques by Gosta Sandberg. Hardcover, ISBN: 1887374175 Publisher: Sterling Pub Co Inc, 1997 Madder Red: A History of Luxury and Trade Plant Dyes and Pigments in World Commerce and Art by Robert Chenciner Hardcover, ISBN: 0700712593 Publisher: Routledge I haven't used the last two, so I can't vouch for the contents. Good luck! Colleen ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fabric dying (fwd)
> It's pretty likely that if you were wearing these colors in most of the > Middle Ages, you wouldn't have dyed them. You'd have bought the fabric > already dyed by a specialized dyer, or brought undyed wool or woven fabric > to the local dyer. The exact sequences and roles (who dyes, who weaves, > when those steps occur, and when it ends up in the consumer's possession) > would vary from one time to another and one place to another. I absolutely agree with Robin here. Some people did do their own dyeing at home. In general, however, the fabric was generally bought already dyed. > If you want to know how the dyer would have achieved the colors, again for > most of the Middle Ages, you're dealing with madder for most red shades > and woad for all blues. Your bluish violet would have been made with some > combination of those two, possibly with overdyeing. Except that madder gives a more orange-red in various shades. And bluish-violet, depending on the actual shade, could be achieved by other dyestuffs...logwood being one of them. But I don't know when logwood came to be used as a dye so the time frame you are talking about is important. Dyeing in period is a fascinating subject and if you love chemistry and doing experiments, natural dyeing is a lot of fun. Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fabric dying (fwd)
Roscelin wrote: >I'm working on a couple of gowns and will be needing to write > something up about how I "would have" dyed them the color they are. > Since, I am not a dyer (yet). Can someone give me a name of a good > book on medieval dyes that I may be able to find at my local library? > The dye recipes I am looking for are a pink (more of a dusty rose) and > a bluish violet. If I understand this, you want to know how these colors would have been achieved in period, not how you would go about doing it today? (Are you writing documentation for arts competition?) It's pretty likely that if you were wearing these colors in most of the Middle Ages, you wouldn't have dyed them. You'd have bought the fabric already dyed by a specialized dyer, or brought undyed wool or woven fabric to the local dyer. The exact sequences and roles (who dyes, who weaves, when those steps occur, and when it ends up in the consumer's possession) would vary from one time to another and one place to another. If you want to know how the dyer would have achieved the colors, again for most of the Middle Ages, you're dealing with madder for most red shades and woad for all blues. Your bluish violet would have been made with some combination of those two, possibly with overdyeing. I think madder is the most likely possibility for a household-used dye, but again, less likely in certain periods and at certain social strata. Woad dyeing became a highly specialized occupation rather early because it requires certain facilities and is very unpleasant to be around. The best book on period woad dyeing I've seen is this "The History of Woad and the Medieval Woad Vat," a little booklet by John Edmonds that's absolutely packed iwth information. My copy seems to be buried somewhere, alas: http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/22249;$7B$7FM$?/Location/Oxbow There's also the possibility of kermes as a red dye (particularly later in the period) which was much more expensive than madder; I'm not well-versed in this and would be glad to be corrected, but all the references I can think of to kermes-dyed cloth have to do with very expensive imported dyed cloth, so I suspect this would also have been a specialist occupation, not something the average medieval household owner would have done on her own. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fabric dying
At 05:31 PM 7/24/2005, you wrote: Greetings again, I'm working on a couple of gowns and will be needing to write something up about how I "would have" dyed them the color they are. Since, I am not a dyer (yet). Can someone give me a name of a good book on medieval dyes that I may be able to find at my local library? The dye recipes I am looking for are a pink (more of a dusty rose) and a bluish violet. Thanks for any help. Roscelin The one book I've been recommended is: The Art and Craft of Natural Dyeing: Traditional Recipes for Modern Use (Paperback), by J.N. Liles ISBN: 0870496700 I understand the writer goes over the history of dyes, but he uses modern chemistry to help perfect dyeing techniques. I don't know how well it will work for your needs, but it may be a start. Kimiko ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Fabric dying
> Greetings again, > > I'm working on a couple of gowns and will be needing to write > something up about how I "would have" dyed them the color they are. > Since, I am not a dyer (yet). Can someone give me a name of a good book > on medieval dyes that I may be able to find at my local library? The > dye recipes I am looking for are a pink (more of a dusty rose) and a > bluish violet. I have done some natural dyeing in the past but I can't remember the books that I used as reference (my dyeing partner bought and kept the books). Your best bet may be to start with your library...older books are still good references and won't cost you anything. Once you decide to try some dyeing yourself, you may want to invest in some books because they will have weights and measures that will help immensely. And if you want bonus points from the judges, mention how colorfast the dye is. You can achieve many colors using all kinds of natural dyestuffs but many of them will fade either quickly or eventually. Good luck & sorry I couldn't give you better suggestions! Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Fabric dying
Greetings again, I'm working on a couple of gowns and will be needing to write something up about how I "would have" dyed them the color they are. Since, I am not a dyer (yet). Can someone give me a name of a good book on medieval dyes that I may be able to find at my local library? The dye recipes I am looking for are a pink (more of a dusty rose) and a bluish violet. Thanks for any help. Roscelin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
