Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
When I first saw photos of the gown, I was puzzled since it didn't look like anything that came before or after it. Once I saw it in the museum, I was convinced that it's exhibited on a (really bad, lumpy) form that's too big for it. I made a small mockup of it based on the photo, closed it up CF, and it looked just like a regular 16/17th century gown. Those zany Victorians! Kathy Norvell -Original Message- From: Judy Mitchell judymi...@theoldforest.net To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wed, Aug 12, 2009 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown Cin wrote: Thanks for all your comments on the Shinrone gown, everyone. It's certainly more than I knew before disappointing that there's not much else to go on. If there's a paper or even a mention in CSA or Dress, I'd like to have a heads up about it. Other than that, sounds like everyone's sharing the same 2-3 bits of info. *sigh* Still, it's all appreciated, --cin well, mostly - except for the one comment that it's being displayed on a mannekin that's too large, and I've heard from others also kinda lumpy and distorted (but not 'pregnant' large or lumpy), has no one else that's seen it noticed this? I should think an improper display would change it's appearance and lead to all sorts of ideas. -Judy Mitchell ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
Thanks for all your comments on the Shinrone gown, everyone. It's certainly more than I knew before disappointing that there's not much else to go on. If there's a paper or even a mention in CSA or Dress, I'd like to have a heads up about it. Other than that, sounds like everyone's sharing the same 2-3 bits of info. *sigh* Still, it's all appreciated, --cin cinbar...@gmail.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
No, there isn't much out there. At my visit, I spoke with museum curatorial staff. I asked for copies of any conservation reports on the gown that they had, but they said that they could not find any. They had a new textile conservator, but her office is at the other museum (Barracks) and her interests are more modern. I wasn't able to make contact with her. Lots of 19th C stuff at that museum. I'd say keep contacting the Museum of Ireland... sooner or later some additional will be published.. I hope. Lots of stuff on display (more in storage) that has never been published. I also talked to Dr. Heckett, but she didn't have any additional info. She's not with the museum, but said that the museum's budget for publications is very tight. With all the development over the last few years, money keeps being re-allocated for essential rescue excavations. Not on the Shinrone, but if you are interested in Irish: Start by downloading (free) this dissertation from eTHos http://ethos.bl.uk Fitzgerald, Maria Amelia. Textile production in prehistoric and early medieval Ireland. ( Manchester Metropolitan University, 2000.) DXN039210 BLDSC, ethos 326250 Unfortunately, you can only see her MS thesis by special permission at the School of Archaeology, University College Dublin: Fitzgerald, Maria Amelia. Dress Styles in Early Ireland (C5th to C12th century AD). MA thesis University College Dublin.1991. I've talked with Dr. Fitzgerald, but haven't been able to get to see the MA thesis. If someone is planning a trip over, please let me know so that I can give you the contact information. The only other working on Irish costume textiles (that I've been able to locate) is Maureen Doyle, who is completing her dissertation. I do not have contact info for her. See the link below for an abstract: Dress, ornament and bodily identities in early medieval Ireland: an archaeology of personhood Maureen Doyle, UCD School of Archaeology/Scoil na Seandálaíochta UCD http://www.ucd.ie/archaeology/research/phd/maureen_doyle/http://www.ucd.ie/archaeology/research/phd/maureen_doyle/ Beth At 01:00 PM 8/12/2009, you wrote: Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:34:35 -0700 From: Cin cinbar...@gmail.com Thanks for all your comments on the Shinrone gown, everyone. It's certainly more than I knew before disappointing that there's not much else to go on. If there's a paper or even a mention in CSA or Dress, I'd like to have a heads up about it. Other than that, sounds like everyone's sharing the same 2-3 bits of info. *sigh* Still, it's all appreciated, --cin cinbar...@gmail.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
Cin wrote: Thanks for all your comments on the Shinrone gown, everyone. It's certainly more than I knew before disappointing that there's not much else to go on. If there's a paper or even a mention in CSA or Dress, I'd like to have a heads up about it. Other than that, sounds like everyone's sharing the same 2-3 bits of info. *sigh* Still, it's all appreciated, --cin well, mostly - except for the one comment that it's being displayed on a mannekin that's too large, and I've heard from others also kinda lumpy and distorted (but not 'pregnant' large or lumpy), has no one else that's seen it noticed this? I should think an improper display would change it's appearance and lead to all sorts of ideas. -Judy Mitchell ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
And as Kass mentions, it is not supposed to lace closed in front. It really is cut that way, tho why I am still not sure. I've made two of these dresses and I have to agree with Kass's conclusions that it is a dress that can be adapted for pregnancy (though I've yet to try it on someone who is actually pregnant, darn it!). The curved line one sees in the pictures of the gown are actually the result of two darts which pull up the waistline. Before adding in these darts the waistline is positioned under the belly, which is perfect for the increase in size during pregnancy. Jackie Wyatt ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
I too have actually seen the Shinrone gown up close, but did not have the opportunity to handle it (I didn't know at the time that I could have just asked to do so, and the museum people probably would have said yes), but that said, I have some dispute with Kass' interpretation. Part of the problem is that the gown is displayed on a form that's too big for it, so it can't be laced up in front. If the gown is indeed dated c. 1600, then there is no reason I know of that it would be cut to not lace in front -- all the?contemporary drawings of Irish gowns I've seen (both before and after 1600) show the gowns laced closed in front. Also, why would a gown not lace? It can get pretty cold and damp in Ireland -- what would a woman wear under the gown to keep her warm? According to descriptions of the gown, a lot of restoration was done to it in the 1800s. so we realy don't know how much of the weird stitching, seams, etc are Victorian and how much is contemporary. For example, the bodice was reinforced back in the 1800s to hold the skirt, which is very heavy. Look at some of the color illustrations of late 16th century Irish gowns?in Dunleavy's Dress in Ireland for comparison. I've made several of those gowns and if you unlace them, guess what? They look just like the Shinrone gown. By the way, has anyone mentioned the little stand-up collar on the center back (but not elsewhere) of the bodice? Any ideas what it's for? I'm thinking maybe to support a small ruff? Kathleen Norvell -Original Message- From: Kimiko Small sstormwa...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Mon, Aug 10, 2009 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown Hi Cynthia, Kass' info on the Shinrone gown is probably the most thorough I know of, as she handled the gown herself, and most of the rest I've seen is usually based on written descriptions of the garment and two photos in one book (Dress in Ireland). I know from having made my own many years ago, before her info came out, that the written info is incomplete, and there are unseen unwritten details that Kass describes pretty well. And as Kass mentions, it is not supposed to lace closed in front. It really is cut that way, tho why I am still not sure. Kimiko From: Cin cinbar...@gmail.com Ladies (and a few gents), Have any of you got informative comments to share on the Shirone gown? I'm looking at the front and wondering whether that placket is * cut on the straight grain like a Henrican kirtle distorted with age, wear and/or burial * cut on the straight CF but folded back in a slight V for a wider CF lacing area * really cut in a curve like that?! I've read Recontructing History's notes and would like confirming or contrasting facts, if you have any to share. Thanks all! --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Shirone gown
Ladies (and a few gents), Have any of you got informative comments to share on the Shirone gown? I'm looking at the front and wondering whether that placket is * cut on the straight grain like a Henrican kirtle distorted with age, wear and/or burial * cut on the straight CF but folded back in a slight V for a wider CF lacing area * really cut in a curve like that?! I've read Recontructing History's notes and would like confirming or contrasting facts, if you have any to share. Thanks all! --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
At 03:32 PM 8/10/2009, you wrote: Hi Cynthia, Kass' info on the Shinrone gown is probably the most thorough I know of, I agree. Having seen the dress myself, Kass is pretty thorough. Her site is here: https://www.reconstructinghistory.com The Shinrone article: https://www.reconstructinghistory.com/irish.php?s=c=8d=100e=f=g=a=191w=2 And as Kass mentions, it is not supposed to lace closed in front. It really is cut that way, tho why I am still not sure. My guess is that it's for looks. You might look at this stie as their sleeves are very similar: http://www.cottesimple.com/blois_and_sleeves/grande_assiette/grande_assiette_overview.htm The last painting is two women in Birth of the Virgin Mary. Their sleeves are a very close match for the Shinrone gown. Having made the male version of this, I can see how it would be easy to curve that seam around as there is no collar. Good luck Genie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Shirone gown
The gown http://www.the-irish-path.com/images/shinrone_dress.jpg and a discription In 1843 a woman's dress was found buried in a bog near Shinrone, Co. Tipperary. It was believed to be from the sixteenth or seventeenth century. It was very well preserved. It was made of a brown woolen cloth. It consisted of a bodice with a long waist that opened in the front. Attached to the bodice was a full plaited skirt. It had 23 gored breadths gathered into small plaits at the top and spread out to wide quilling at the bottom. The bottom of the skirt measured twenty-two feet in circumference with ninety-two plaits in all. It shows the high skill of the tailors of that period. Note that it has a bit of similarity to Flemish gowns of that period. De -Original Message- Hi Cynthia, Kass' info on the Shinrone gown is probably the most thorough I know of, as she handled the gown herself, and most of the rest I've seen is usually based on written descriptions of the garment and two photos in one book (Dress in Ireland). I know from having made my own many years ago, before her info came out, that the written info is incomplete, and there are unseen unwritten details that Kass describes pretty well. And as Kass mentions, it is not supposed to lace closed in front. It really is cut that way, tho why I am still not sure. Kimiko ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
