[h-cost] The shape of Chardin's girl with shuttlecock
Marie Hebbie wrote: Kate Bunting commented that you wear 17 century garb – can you achieve the same shape today as our shuttlecock girl? Dear Marie, No, I don't think I could achieve that shape. I've only once worn a pair of 18th century stays, many years ago. The 17th century costumes I wear are from the 1640s when the waist was higher; see http://link.library.utoronto.ca/hollar/digobject.cfm?Idno=Hollar_k_1686&query=Hollar_k_1686&size=large&type=browse so I don't need such extreme shaping. Kate Bunting Retired librarian & 17th century reenactor ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] The shape of Chardin's girl with shuttlecock
I’ve just found this discussion, can I join in? I’m studying social history in Paris (I’m French). I cannot say much on dresses, but I can add something on 18 century children. It’s true that the girl, aged 12 perhaps, definitely does not have the shape of 2014. I think the picture was painted in 1740, so a 12 year old would have been born around 1728. At this time in W Europe babies were tightly swaddled and then progressed to infant’s stays. At some age (6 or 7) boys were liberated and girls would wear stiffer stays to ensure the shape we see in the painting. In the 18 century parents believed they owned their children’s body and soul. With this ownership went the responsibility of preparing the child for adult life. Some doctors complained that midwives were moulding the skulls to newborn babies so that they had an aristocratic look. Serious changes to the skeleton would have been welcomed by caring parents!? Our shuttlecock girl was being prepared for marriage - note the scissors and pincushion hanging from her belt – all for preparing her marital home. Perhaps people experienced in costume wearing could comment.. personally I don’t see a girl playing with bat and shuttlecock in this dress, complete with pincushion. I’m sure over arm movements would have been impossible? Kate Bunting commented that you wear 17 century garb – can you achieve the same shape today as our shuttlecock girl? Marie -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] The shape of Chardin's girl with shuttlecock
I agree with Kate B and Sharon C that at this time - first half of 1700s, that the girl appears to be wearing stays typical of the period. As said, not breathtakingly tight at the waist, but specifically designed to give the correct posture and conical shape of the period. This was very upright (physically = morally) with shoulders well pulled back by the shoulder straps and diagonal bones over the shoulder blades at the back. You can go some way towards this shape today by wearing a wellboned pair of stays. At this time children started even quite stiff stays when they started to walk, so the skeleton was easily corrected (or deformed!) to be in the proper shape. I think there are 3 things to remember when looking at the girl's shape. - there probably *was* some artistic licence employed. - if it was a photo the girl would have been told to exaggerate the correct posture just for the time to "click". Even today models complain about the postures they have to adopt for the fashion photographer. Perhaps the same for the artist? - yes, she was a very different shape from a girl of today. Long term stay wearing from infancy was criticised by doctors for this very reason. Finally, we should remember that this shape was dictated by a lot more than fashion. Working women required broad shoulders and backs to do their work, therefore to differentiate yourself from the working class you had to have a narrow back. Stays really can narrow the back, so mothers would think it proper to put their daughters in such stays. Ditto being erect. Rickets and work from an early age caused stooping and malformations. An erect posture showed that you did not (and probably could not!) work. Annie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] The shape of Chardin's girl with shuttlecock
Eighteenth-century gowns were cut with a narrow back. From an early age the girl would have worn bodices with some boning which trained her to hold her shoulders back and push her chest forward (not exactly "tight stays", since they didn't constrict the waist). Maybe Chardin did also exaggerate the effect a little to suit contemporary taste, in the same way that modern fashion illustrators draw women with very long legs. Kate Bunting Retired librarian & 17th century reenactor ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The shape of Chardin's girl with shuttlecock
She is wearing a corset. The cone shape is the shape that corsets were in the 1700's. Unlike Victorian corsets, which nipped in the waist and created a curvy shape, the ideal look at this time was a cone shape. Tudor and Elizabethan corsets also created the cone shape. To see a modern version and how it was worn, watch the movie "The Three Musketers", the one made in the 1970's. In it, Milady is seducing D'Artagnan. She removes her gown and underneath, she is wearing a corset with a "busk" a wooden triangular piece to keep the front stiff. That slips out. Sharon C. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Betty Cooper Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2014 7:08 AM To: h-costume@mail.indra.com Subject: [h-cost] The shape of Chardin's girl with shuttlecock Hello In interested in the painting of “girl with shuttlecock” by the French artist - Jean-Baptiste-Siméon Chardin (1699 – 1779). There are several examples on the web, try this one here http://www.wikiart.org/en/jean-baptiste-simeon-chardin/girl-with-racket-and-shuttlecock#supersized-artistPaintings-268470 He probably painted the girl in 1740 and he was famous for painting still life and “realistic” home scenes. I don’t know how old the girl is (12? Years) but she really has a shape that we don’t find today. I have tried, VERY unscientifically, to recreate the image by sitting my 10 year old granddaughter in the same position holding a fly swat instead of a racket. We tried to add a hat something like the one in the picture. Even after persuading dear gd to sit very straight and to pull her shoulders back we did not get anything like the look or shape of the girl in the painting. Either the Chardin girl’s skeleton has been deformed by tight stays, or the painter is employing artistic licence to please the person paying for the portrait. I’m interested in how people with more costume knowledge than me see the girl the painting. B ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] The shape of Chardin's girl with shuttlecock
Hello In interested in the painting of “girl with shuttlecock” by the French artist - Jean-Baptiste-Siméon Chardin (1699 – 1779). There are several examples on the web, try this one here http://www.wikiart.org/en/jean-baptiste-simeon-chardin/girl-with-racket-and-shuttlecock#supersized-artistPaintings-268470 He probably painted the girl in 1740 and he was famous for painting still life and “realistic” home scenes. I don’t know how old the girl is (12? Years) but she really has a shape that we don’t find today. I have tried, VERY unscientifically, to recreate the image by sitting my 10 year old granddaughter in the same position holding a fly swat instead of a racket. We tried to add a hat something like the one in the picture. Even after persuading dear gd to sit very straight and to pull her shoulders back we did not get anything like the look or shape of the girl in the painting. Either the Chardin girl’s skeleton has been deformed by tight stays, or the painter is employing artistic licence to please the person paying for the portrait. I’m interested in how people with more costume knowledge than me see the girl the painting. B ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
