[h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction [was: Pockets; was: Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches]
Belatedly chiming in (sorry, I'm always a few weeks behind in reading this list). Here's the webpage the picture of the pocket came from: http://www.vads.ahds.ac.uk/collections/pocketsofhistory.html They don't have a date for the specific pocket being discussed, and their image database won't be online until 2008 (hello? it's 2008 already!), but they do mention that their pockets date from 1700 to 1800. The shape and embroidery on this pocket is very typical of pockets seen in the 1700s (as in, there's dozens of similar extant examples, many of them American). So, I'm afraid it's really unlikely that this pocket dates to the 1600s. To the person who asked about making a pocket like this one: it's most likely crewelwork, and you can find diagrams of very similar pockets in (and I may need to verify): "Fitting & Proper" by Sharon Ann Burnston "Costume Close-Up" by Linda Baumgarten et. al. "18th Century Embroidery Techniques" by Gail Marsh and lots of pretty pictures at: http://www.vam.ac.uk/collections/fashion/pockets/collections/index.html If there were tie on pockets *before* the 1700s, well, it certainly could be possible, after all, these pockets couldn't have spontaneously appeared in the year 1700. :) Claudine (who collects photos of 18th c. pockets :) ) - Original Message Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 15:40:46 -0500 From: "otsisto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches To: "Historical Costume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" I remember reading that it was early 1600s but I am not 100% sure of the year 20. It was list in either Elizabethan or Jacobean. De -Original Message- At 00:02 06/05/2008, you wrote: >I think it was from the Museum of London site. The pocket I believe said >that it was listed at about 1620. There are very few pockets from pre1600s. >Presently I can not find the site. The embroidery seems very 18th century to me - are you sure it was 1620? I have looked at a large number of pockets, and pictures of, for a small project I am working on, and have never seen one dated that early. Some of the MoL items are not always dated accurately, or with a very wide range of dates, as I have found while working there, as a volunteer. Suzi >De > * Kate Bunting Cataloguing & Data Quality Librarian University of Derby ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction [was: Pockets; was: Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches]
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > If there were tie on pockets *before* the 1700s, well, it certainly > could be possible, after all, these pockets couldn't have > spontaneously appeared in the year 1700. :) > There are pockets in 16th C. Italian Paintings -- there just aren't any extant pockets that I know of -- although, niggling in the back of my brain is an extant pocket that dates from pre-1650. A lady in the SCA has her research (and the snippets from a couple of the paintings) here http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/Kat's%20Soccaccia.html Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction [was: Pockets; was: Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches]
Replying to a couple of emails. Thank you to whomever found the photo at Museo de Traje (can't find that email at the moment). I'm adding it to my collection. :) Susan Farmer wrote: > A lady in the SCA has her research (and the snippets from a couple of > the paintings) here > http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/Kat's%20Soccaccia.html Yes, I saw this link posted earlier. Unfortunately, she says "this is so" without citing where she may have read it or why she came to such a conclusion. But I love these pictures, because they do predate the 1700s, and the "pouches" do so much resemble 18th century pockets in shape and style. I wanted to see the whole paintings, and fortunately Kimiko uploaded scans: http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/ModaFirenze/index.html She quoted a bit of what _Moda a Firenze_ had to say about these pocket-pouches, which the above website appears also to be quoting, and when I have a chance I'll have to crack open my copy and read up on it myself. Exstock wrote: > As far as when they started carrying pockets goes, brace yourselves as I > make a completely non-costume-geek-like statement: I mean really, how > different are separate pockets and pouches anyway?! I couldn't agree with you more! I don't know why 18th century tie-on pockets are called "pockets" at all and not pouches, but "pocket" is a documentably period term. Congratulations on the house. House in the house! Sorry, I had to try. :) Claudine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tie on pockets, dating correction [was: Pockets; was: Italian Ren gowns and purses/pouches]
I'm a bit behind in my emails, but I hope those images of the loose pockets help. The book doesn't state much beyond what I posted, tho I haven't read it all yet, so I may have missed a comment elsewhere in the book. The earliest I've found comments on 16th century pockets in general were from the trial of Anne Boleyn, when one of her supposed lovers Wyatt claimed that Anne had given him a jewel (or something) from her pocket. What the pocket looked like or how it was accessed, I do not know. The story was mentioned briefly in the book Dress in the Court of King Henry VIII, but the author did not go into any details on pockets (much to my surprise). Doing a quick google search, Jstor has the article that mentions the Anne Boleyn story, but I don't have access to those articles. The Fall of Anne Boleyn G. W. Bernard http://www.jstor.org/pss/573258 Also, there is an image of an attached pocket on a man's jacket skirt in the Mary Rose book (name escapes me, but the one that has all the extant items in it). I think I've wandered a different direction on pockets, so I will end here. Kimiko --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > But I love these pictures, because they do predate > the 1700s, and the "pouches" do so much resemble > 18th century pockets in shape and style. I wanted to > see the whole paintings, and fortunately Kimiko > uploaded scans: > http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/ModaFirenze/index.html > She quoted a bit of what _Moda a Firenze_ had to say > about these pocket-pouches, which the above website > appears also to be quoting, and when I have a chance > I'll have to crack open my copy and read up on it > myself. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
