Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
On Thursday 13 April 2006 2:50 am, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: > >Of course, there would still be art interpretation issues, > >much as there are for miniatures (e.g., was this color chosen for its > >symbolism? or because it was an easily available paint pigment? or > > because people actually wore it?) > > There's always a difference between dyestuff, for fabric, and paint > pigment. And what's good for one isn't necessarily good for the other. That's true. But I was thinking more along the lines of "certain shades are possible in paint that may not be possible in textile dyes, and vice versa." -- Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "I'm starting to like the cut of this man's gibberish." --General Fillmore (from "The Tick," episode 2) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Melanie Schuessler wrote: > Susan B. Farmer wrote: > > > > You can also see this line of trip just above the belt on some statues > > from St. Loup de Naud. This is a large scan (ca. 1 MB in size) so that > > you can see the details quite nicely. > > > > http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/stLoupDeNaud_LeftPortal-detai2l.jpg > > This is very interesting--where is St. Loup de Naud, and is it known > when the statuary was done? It's by Provins -- e.g. not far from Paris or Chartres. The portals are 12th c. See http://perso.magic.fr/relet/StLoup/Saint_Loup_de_Naud/Saint_Loup_de_Naud.htm for some discussion of the portals For the French-impaired, that's http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://perso.magic.fr/relet/StLoup/Saint_Loup_de_Naud/Saint_Loup_de_Naud.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLoup%2Bde%2BNaud%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dgooglet but as usual this is a little cockeyed! First time I've seen "Moyen Age" (Middle Ages) translated as "the Average Age" ;-) The page says that the portal is not precisely dateable, but probably is around 1160, when the church received a major relic. The female figure is probably the Queen of Sheba (biblical, royal, foreign). There's a Queen of Sheba image in some costume books -- I think it's in Payne, among others, or maybe it was Davenport? -- but I don't know if it's the same one. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Susan B. Farmer wrote: You can also see this line of trip just above the belt on some statues from St. Loup de Naud. This is a large scan (ca. 1 MB in size) so that you can see the details quite nicely. http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/stLoupDeNaud_LeftPortal-detai2l.jpg This is very interesting--where is St. Loup de Naud, and is it known when the statuary was done? Thanks, Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Of course, there would still be art interpretation issues,
much as there are for miniatures (e.g., was this color chosen for its
symbolism? or because it was an easily available paint pigment? or because
people actually wore it?)
There's always a difference between dyestuff, for fabric, and paint
pigment. And what's good for one isn't necessarily good for the other.
CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
www.FunStuft.com
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RE: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote: > Any possibility that the line of trim is what we would call a > waistband, attached to the vertical pleated skirt, the whole worn over > the horizontally pleated underdress? One of the more believable theories I've heard for this is that the line of trim (which is indeed distinct from the double-looped belt, and is visible on several statues that I know of) is the waistband of a decorative apron, and everything visible below that line is the apron itself, forming a layer that goes over the full dress layer. That at least would give us another alternative to the options of "waistband seam" and "corselet." Me, I frankly think the "bliaut problem" (meaning specifically how to interpret the lines in the statuary in terms of specific garments and construction) is fundamentally unsolvable given the present body of data. People can argue about this till the cows come home, and there is still no theory I've heard yet that's anything better than speculation and is consistent with what we know of garments at this time from other media and documents. It's also important to recognize that the Chartres-style statues are not a good set of sources to base any construction theories on. They're all from a very small time/place slice, in a single medium. The mysterious lines do not seem to occur in any other medium or locale at this time (at least that I know of -- I'd be glad to see examples.) Plus, as far as I know, every one of them is of an allegorical or historical figure. This raises the very real possibility that what we are looking at is not an attempt to reproduce real garments as worn by real women, but might be simply a style for artistic representation unique to sculptors from a single artistic school in this small part of France. When we see the same details popping up in other media or over a broader area, then I'll be more willing to speculate. But as it stands, I'm staying out of it; the chances are far too good that this is all a blind alley for costume evidence. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
On Wednesday 12 April 2006 9:10 pm, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: > Greetings-- > > Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: > >> Sculptors likely did not have live models posing for them as they > >> chipped away at the stone; even when they are being realistic, there > >> was always the challenge of representing what the fabric does in > >> stone, a very different medium. > > > > At least they were closer to the real thing than we are. And, > > presumably, they saw a real one at some point. > > That's why sculpture does have its attractions as a source. You just > have to know and work with the caveats, as you would any source, and > never assume they're being photographic-perfect in their > representations. Most of the twelfth century sculptures have a fair bit > of stylization, so you have to ask yourself what's accurate, what's > stylized, and what is limited by the limits of the medium itself. > > One of the things I find fascinating about a lot of medieval sculpture > (and apparently, a fair bit of the classical stuff as well) is that it > was painted! Yes, indeed. The Philadelphia Museum of Art is built on the model of an ancient Greek temple, complete with sculptures in friezes around the walls, just under the roof eaves. Their sculptures are painted--bright primary colors--reds, blues. Flesh tones. It's a very different aesthetic than we're accustomed to, knowing only the paintless statues as they've come down to us, but once you get used to the idea, it seems quite natural. I've seen a number of medieval sculptures that still retained noticeable amounts of pigment. The main surprise about the sculptures I've seen is that the favorite color for the Virgin Mary's tunic is red, usually with a dark blue mantle (that scheme shows up in minatures and paintings of the period as well, now that I think about it). > I have no idea of whether these particular examples were > painted, but boy, wouldn't that have added an interesting layer of > detail Yes, it would. Of course, there would still be art interpretation issues, much as there are for miniatures (e.g., was this color chosen for its symbolism? or because it was an easily available paint pigment? or because people actually wore it?) But I always prefer more information to less, even when the new information raises more questions than it answers. -- Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "I'm starting to like the cut of this man's gibberish." --General Fillmore (from "The Tick," episode 2) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Greetings-- Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: Sculptors likely did not have live models posing for them as they chipped away at the stone; even when they are being realistic, there was always the challenge of representing what the fabric does in stone, a very different medium. At least they were closer to the real thing than we are. And, presumably, they saw a real one at some point. That's why sculpture does have its attractions as a source. You just have to know and work with the caveats, as you would any source, and never assume they're being photographic-perfect in their representations. Most of the twelfth century sculptures have a fair bit of stylization, so you have to ask yourself what's accurate, what's stylized, and what is limited by the limits of the medium itself. One of the things I find fascinating about a lot of medieval sculpture (and apparently, a fair bit of the classical stuff as well) is that it was painted! I have no idea of whether these particular examples were painted, but boy, wouldn't that have added an interesting layer of detail Susan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
On Wednesday 12 April 2006 5:05 pm, Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: > >look at the photo called PDRM0061in the Chartres collection. Look at > >the belt knot, then look just above the belt knot. There you will see > >a repeating decorative pattern, that resembles trim, either woven or > >embroidered. Now... notice that the "trim" appears to lie flat and > >follow the curve of the body, lines above it run in the horizontal > >direction, lines below it run vertically. > > PDRM0062 shows the same trim-like decoration at the neck of the outermost > garment. I'm ready to stand corrected. Or both could be the same pattern of tablet woven trim--sewn on at the neck, used as a belt below. I'm not convinced -- Cathy Raymond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "I'm starting to like the cut of this man's gibberish." --General Fillmore (from "The Tick," episode 2) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Well.she may get me the info which makes me wonder if it isn't a SCA award scroll. I have asked as I am interested as well. De -Original Message- Do you have any additional information on The Manuscript? I'd *really* like to see that (as would a number of other folks, I"m sure!) Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
I'd love to see the image where the 'girdle' section is a different color from the rest of the gown--I'm in the collecting-all-theories-and-evidence-so-I-can-make-test-garments-someday camp! -E House PS--thanks for the great photos ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
So my question, just for my knowledge, is there docs on the horizontal lines
on the bliaut ever being a separate piece from the garment?
SCA people sometimes make this as a separate garment, but that's partly
because of bad reproductions of the original image. The carving shows this
as part of a single garment. BTW, you can tell your friends that Nazi's
haven't been invented yet, so she can stop calling you one.
CarolynKayta Barrows
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Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Sculptors likely did not have live models posing for them as they chipped
away at the stone; even when they are being realistic, there was always
the challenge of representing what the fabric does in stone, a very
different medium.
At least they were closer to the real thing than we are. And, presumably,
they saw a real one at some point.
CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
www.FunStuft.com
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Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Greetings-- Susan B. Farmer wrote: Their line of thinking is that you have to draw on what was before and what comes after -- since fashion, back then, didn't change just because The Great Design Houses issued their new fall collection. It sort of oozed between styles. Everything before and after the bliaut is a simple tunic-type garment (yeah, the fit and support are different between the 11th and the later garments), but they're still 2 or 4 panel garments (unless you count some of the Herjolfernes garments [and I sure hope I spelled that correctly!]). It's easier for me to see a shorter overgarment (we do see shorter tunics -- maybe only a foot or so, but they're shorter over-tunics) than a waist seam appear out of nowhere just to disappear again. This is generally my line of thought as well, and illustrates one of the problems of using statuary as a source for clothing history. Statuary is *always* a secondary source, as the detail is subject to artistic interpretation--although it's also often one of the best sources we've got. Statues are not photographs, any more than paintings are, even when there is a fair degree of realism. Sculptors likely did not have live models posing for them as they chipped away at the stone; even when they are being realistic, there was always the challenge of representing what the fabric does in stone, a very different medium. Just as we know painters "got it wrong", it is possible that so did sculptors. This is where trying to verify what you see in the statues with other sources--extant garments, cutting techniques, literary sources, and other visual sources--leads to a more complete picture. We can't take any of these sources in the twelfth century in isolation to understand what's going on. The problem, of course, is that we lack an extant "bliaut", so theories are going to remain theories unless someone unearths a big trove of bliauts somewhere. And I suspect even then there would be questions. Susan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
look at the photo called PDRM0061in the Chartres collection. Look at
the belt knot, then look just above the belt knot. There you will see
a repeating decorative pattern, that resembles trim, either woven or
embroidered. Now... notice that the "trim" appears to lie flat and
follow the curve of the body, lines above it run in the horizontal
direction, lines below it run vertically.
PDRM0062 shows the same trim-like decoration at the neck of the outermost
garment. I'm ready to stand corrected.
CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
www.FunStuft.com
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RE: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
In the Chartres it seems to stops under the bust
Some of the pleating on this one goes across the line which delineates the
lower edge of the bust. Look closely to find the exact pleats which do this.
CarolynKayta Barrows
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RE: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Quoting "Sharon at Collierfam.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Any possibility that the line of trim is what we would call a waistband, attached to the vertical pleated skirt, the whole worn over the horizontally pleated underdress? It's *always* possible. But a couple of Garb Laurels that I know point out that the waist seam is such a useful thing, why would it appear *briefly* here in the 12th century and then disappear until the 15th century (I think I"m getting my centuries straight). You don't see it again (other than in Italian garb) until Tudor fashion IIRC. I'd just *love* to have a Time Mschine if for no other reason than to answer this very question! Their line of thinking is that you have to draw on what was before and what comes after -- since fashion, back then, didn't change just because The Great Design Houses issued their new fall collection. It sort of oozed between styles. Everything before and after the bliaut is a simple tunic-type garment (yeah, the fit and support are different between the 11th and the later garments), but they're still 2 or 4 panel garments (unless you count some of the Herjolfernes garments [and I sure hope I spelled that correctly!]). It's easier for me to see a shorter overgarment (we do see shorter tunics -- maybe only a foot or so, but they're shorter over-tunics) than a waist seam appear out of nowhere just to disappear again. It's also possible that the trip is some sort of stabilizer on a single piece gown to keep the shirring caused by the lacing in place. However, there's definately 2 layers at the neck (well, as definate as one can be from looking at a piece of stone .) Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Any possibility that the line of trim is what we would call a waistband, attached to the vertical pleated skirt, the whole worn over the horizontally pleated underdress? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Susan B. Farmer Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:43 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos Quoting Marie Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > There are many, many theories about bliauts. I have a few myself. > However just to stick with the question... is there docs on the > horizontal lines on the bliaut ever being a separate piece from the > garment? > > Some say yes. Some say no. I used to be in the "probably no, but it > is vaguely possible" camp... until Nancy's photos showed me something > new. > > look at the photo called PDRM0061in the Chartres collection. Look at > the belt knot, then look just above the belt knot. There you will see > a repeating decorative pattern, that resembles trim, either woven or > embroidered. Now... notice that the "trim" appears to lie flat and > follow the curve of the body, lines above it run in the horizontal > direction, lines below it run vertically. You can also see this line of trip just above the belt on some statues from St. Loup de Naud. This is a large scan (ca. 1 MB in size) so that you can see the details quite nicely. http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/stLoupDeNaud_LeftPortal-deta i2l.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/6qse5 The other thing that is telling to me is the "knife-pleats." Look at how they disappear behind the neckline trim ... look at how they "reappear" out from under the wide trim above the belt. IMO, this is the source of the garments that we see in later symbolic art where the woman has on a hip-length "vest" or "corsage" or whatever you want to call it. > > To me this is really starting to suggest a separate layer. Could be. > Can I be positive, not yet, but I am intrigued. > > Could this be the "corsetum" mentioned in the English inventories of > the early 1300s, which was fashionably "behind the times" - or an > ancestor of that garment? Are the two even linked at all? Well, wasn't France leading the Fashion World (tm) at that time? I don't have a problem with the English lagging behind. > > Some folks might postulate that the trim is a product or a decoration > to highlight construction of the garment. Covering the joining of a > bodice to a skirt... Personally I find that theory to be too > speculative for me, and not in keeping with examples of garment > shaping of the day. But some people do advocate that style of > construction. Yeah, I think that's a little too sketchy for me too. Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
This one seems a bit different from the Chartres. In the Chartres it seems to stops under the bust but in this one it looks as if it is a bodice that goes to the hips and the skirt is a part of the garment you see at the neck. A sort of "jacket" over the gathered garment and laced to creat the horizonatl lines at the waist. De -Original Message- You can also see this line of trip just above the belt on some statues from St. Loup de Naud. This is a large scan (ca. 1 MB in size) so that you can see the details quite nicely. http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/stLoupDeNaud_LeftPortal-deta i2l.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/6qse5 The other thing that is telling to me is the "knife-pleats." Look at how they disappear behind the neckline trim ... look at how they "reappear" out from under the wide trim above the belt. IMO, this is the source of the garments that we see in later symbolic art where the woman has on a hip-length "vest" or "corsage" or whatever you want to call it. Susan - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Quoting Marie Stewart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: There are many, many theories about bliauts. I have a few myself. However just to stick with the question... is there docs on the horizontal lines on the bliaut ever being a separate piece from the garment? Some say yes. Some say no. I used to be in the "probably no, but it is vaguely possible" camp... until Nancy's photos showed me something new. look at the photo called PDRM0061in the Chartres collection. Look at the belt knot, then look just above the belt knot. There you will see a repeating decorative pattern, that resembles trim, either woven or embroidered. Now... notice that the "trim" appears to lie flat and follow the curve of the body, lines above it run in the horizontal direction, lines below it run vertically. You can also see this line of trip just above the belt on some statues from St. Loup de Naud. This is a large scan (ca. 1 MB in size) so that you can see the details quite nicely. http://epee.goldsword.com/sfarmer/SCA/Paintings/stLoupDeNaud_LeftPortal-detai2l.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/6qse5 The other thing that is telling to me is the "knife-pleats." Look at how they disappear behind the neckline trim ... look at how they "reappear" out from under the wide trim above the belt. IMO, this is the source of the garments that we see in later symbolic art where the woman has on a hip-length "vest" or "corsage" or whatever you want to call it. To me this is really starting to suggest a separate layer. Could be. Can I be positive, not yet, but I am intrigued. Could this be the "corsetum" mentioned in the English inventories of the early 1300s, which was fashionably "behind the times" - or an ancestor of that garment? Are the two even linked at all? Well, wasn't France leading the Fashion World (tm) at that time? I don't have a problem with the English lagging behind. Some folks might postulate that the trim is a product or a decoration to highlight construction of the garment. Covering the joining of a bodice to a skirt... Personally I find that theory to be too speculative for me, and not in keeping with examples of garment shaping of the day. But some people do advocate that style of construction. Yeah, I think that's a little too sketchy for me too. Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
After I sent the email I found the Chartres statue you speak of and remembered that when I was once, long ago researching bliauts I came across this statue and saw the "corset/girdle". Old timers strikes again. :P De -Original Message- There are many, many theories about bliauts. I have a few myself. However just to stick with the question... is there docs on the horizontal lines on the bliaut ever being a separate piece from the garment? Some say yes. Some say no. I used to be in the "probably no, but it is vaguely possible" camp... until Nancy's photos showed me something new. look at the photo called PDRM0061in the Chartres collection. Look at the belt knot, then look just above the belt knot. There you will see a repeating decorative pattern, that resembles trim, either woven or embroidered. Now... notice that the "trim" appears to lie flat and follow the curve of the body, lines above it run in the horizontal direction, lines below it run vertically. snip I'm going to go back to pondering this question... but I am considering a move to the "possible, quite possible" camp on this question. Mari / Bridgette > http://www.flickr.com/photos/maddnancyphotos/ > > Nancy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Quoting otsisto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Just recently a friend came up to me and asked how the girdle was made with a bliaut as she was going to make it for her daughter. She was not meaning the belt but the section of horizontal lines between the hips and just under the breast. Her two sources for this being a separate piece from the dress/bliaut is "The Encyclopedia of historic costume" and a manuscript showing it in a different color. Do you have any additional information on The Manuscript? I'd *really* like to see that (as would a number of other folks, I"m sure!) Susan - Susan Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
There are many, many theories about bliauts. I have a few myself. However just to stick with the question... is there docs on the horizontal lines on the bliaut ever being a separate piece from the garment? Some say yes. Some say no. I used to be in the "probably no, but it is vaguely possible" camp... until Nancy's photos showed me something new. look at the photo called PDRM0061in the Chartres collection. Look at the belt knot, then look just above the belt knot. There you will see a repeating decorative pattern, that resembles trim, either woven or embroidered. Now... notice that the "trim" appears to lie flat and follow the curve of the body, lines above it run in the horizontal direction, lines below it run vertically. To me this is really starting to suggest a separate layer. Could be. Can I be positive, not yet, but I am intrigued. Could this be the "corsetum" mentioned in the English inventories of the early 1300s, which was fashionably "behind the times" - or an ancestor of that garment? Are the two even linked at all? Some folks might postulate that the trim is a product or a decoration to highlight construction of the garment. Covering the joining of a bodice to a skirt... Personally I find that theory to be too speculative for me, and not in keeping with examples of garment shaping of the day. But some people do advocate that style of construction. I'm going to go back to pondering this question... but I am considering a move to the "possible, quite possible" camp on this question. Mari / Bridgette > http://www.flickr.com/photos/maddnancyphotos/ > > Nancy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] girdle? was:] Photos
Just recently a friend came up to me and asked how the girdle was made with a bliaut as she was going to make it for her daughter. She was not meaning the belt but the section of horizontal lines between the hips and just under the breast. Her two sources for this being a separate piece from the dress/bliaut is "The Encyclopedia of historic costume" and a manuscript showing it in a different color. When I tried to inform her that usually that area is a part of the dress she promptly said well I'm not trying to be an authenticity nazi my daughter likes it and she's of an age that she wants to show off her figure. So my question, just for my knowledge, is there docs on the horizontal lines on the bliaut ever being a separate piece from the garment? -Original Message- http://www.flickr.com/photos/maddnancyphotos/ Nancy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
