Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
After I sent that, I re-read it and thought.. nah, no one will notice... Kevin --- John Leo Zimmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yeah, but they should match, Kevin. > That unbalanced sentence is going to crash the > system... > (unless you count the emoticon... which would be > cheating.) > :-) > > regards, > jlz > > -- Original Message --- > From: Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > It's (as far as I am concerned (and I have a > > reasonable amount of concern (well, at least a > little) > > about this) OK. > > > > :-) > > > > Kevin > > > > --- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux > Migration Strategies > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, > straightforward articles, > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you > need to get up to > speed, fast. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Yeah, but they should match, Kevin. That unbalanced sentence is going to crash the system... (unless you count the emoticon... which would be cheating.) :-) regards, jlz -- Original Message --- From: Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > It's (as far as I am concerned (and I have a > reasonable amount of concern (well, at least a little) > about this) OK. > > :-) > > Kevin --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
It's (as far as I am concerned (and I have a reasonable amount of concern (well, at least a little) about this) OK. :-) Kevin --- Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You know, I never thought of that. (Of course, I've > learned most of > my English (of the UK variety, anyway) from > television). > > (Are programmers allowed to nest parentheses, or do > they have to play > by the same rules as everyone else?) > > === > Gregory Woodhouse > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "The most profound technologies are those that > disappear." > --Mark Weiser > > > > On Jul 18, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Nancy Anthracite wrote: > > > the meaning of "meeting", if you are British, > > is "party". > > > > > > --- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux > Migration Strategies > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, > straightforward articles, > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you > need to get up to > speed, fast. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Nancy, Hey, they aren't all parties. :-) There is indeed an AMIA OS working group. At the moment I am the chair until we have elections. Just so everyone knows there are 2 presentations on VistA planned for the AMIA conference this fall and one Open Source presentation. I hope many of you can attend. Also, if you can, please join AMIA and the OS-WG so we can increase our input and reach. This has been an un-paid public announcement. Alric I met some folks from the open source section of the British Computer Society that are active in open source medical projects as well, and may be lurking, or if Adrian Midgley is a member, not lurking but participating, on this mailing list. I met them at the AMIA meeting about 2 years ago with JohnLeo Zimmer. That is also where I met Alric O'Conner (Pat Evans), Ignacio Valdez, and Tim Cook. Dr. Forrey asked me to go to the first "meeting" about Open Source, so I grabbed JohnLeo and dragged him with me. After two evenings of making the mistake of assuming I was going to a US style meeting about open source software, I figured out that much like the meaning of "boot" in Britian not the same as "boot" in the US, the meaning of "meeting", if you are British, is "party". I look forward to some more "meetings" with them this October. On Monday 18 July 2005 03:56 pm, Joseph Dal Molin wrote: > Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider field > of compurters in medicine? Definitely there is on both counts, the Open Source Health Care Alliance (which is currently dormant) was founded back in 1999 with the mission of establishing a global community of interest in applying the open source process to health informatics in general. We held 4 very successful conferences...one of which was partly to blame for bringing together several of the founders of WorldVistA. I expect that we will see a rebirth of this organization...perhaps under a different name in the next 8-12 months. Both IMIA and AMIA have open source working groups too. I am not sure how beyond inviting people to participate in this list and WorldVistA meetings but the experience, lessons learned, and insights of the Hardhats community would be extremely valuable to anyone pursuing computers in medicine. Frankly, the Hardhats have in many ways "been there and done that" with respect to many of the issues that others are facingand this is valuable wisdom even for those that are not working with VistA. Joseph Greg Woodhouse wrote: Of course, I know Kevin isn't talking about a microrobot, it's just something his suggestion brought to mind. More generally, I often think about applications of computers to medicine (for example, I just picked up a book on neural prostheses), but I'm not an M.D., and so while I might know something about the technology required, I know a lot less about what is reall needed. for example, the application Kevin mentions here is not one that would have occured to me. Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider field of compurters in medicine? --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Not if I'm the alpha site! :-) Actually, this is an idea I haven't heard, but why not? I've heard various suggestions that microrobots could find application in medicine. --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've wondered if this technology could be used to create a self-ascending colonoscope. I've just got too many interests. :-) Kevin === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members . --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
You know, I never thought of that. (Of course, I've learned most of my English (of the UK variety, anyway) from television). (Are programmers allowed to nest parentheses, or do they have to play by the same rules as everyone else?) === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The most profound technologies are those that disappear." --Mark Weiser On Jul 18, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Nancy Anthracite wrote: the meaning of "meeting", if you are British, is "party". --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
I met some folks from the open source section of the British Computer Society that are active in open source medical projects as well, and may be lurking, or if Adrian Midgley is a member, not lurking but participating, on this mailing list. I met them at the AMIA meeting about 2 years ago with JohnLeo Zimmer. That is also where I met Alric O'Conner (Pat Evans), Ignacio Valdez, and Tim Cook. Dr. Forrey asked me to go to the first "meeting" about Open Source, so I grabbed JohnLeo and dragged him with me. After two evenings of making the mistake of assuming I was going to a US style meeting about open source software, I figured out that much like the meaning of "boot" in Britian not the same as "boot" in the US, the meaning of "meeting", if you are British, is "party". I look forward to some more "meetings" with them this October. On Monday 18 July 2005 03:56 pm, Joseph Dal Molin wrote: > > Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider field > > of compurters in medicine? > > Definitely there is on both counts, the Open Source Health Care Alliance > (which is currently dormant) was founded back in 1999 with the mission > of establishing a global community of interest in applying the open > source process to health informatics in general. We held 4 very > successful conferences...one of which was partly to blame for bringing > together several of the founders of WorldVistA. I expect that we will > see a rebirth of this organization...perhaps under a different name in > the next 8-12 months. Both IMIA and AMIA have open source working groups > too. > > I am not sure how beyond inviting people to participate in this list and > WorldVistA meetings but the experience, lessons learned, and > insights of the Hardhats community would be extremely valuable to anyone > pursuing computers in medicine. Frankly, the Hardhats have in many ways > "been there and done that" with respect to many of the issues that > others are facingand this is valuable wisdom even for those that are > not working with VistA. > > Joseph > > Greg Woodhouse wrote: > > Of course, I know Kevin isn't talking about a microrobot, it's just > > something his suggestion brought to mind. > > > > More generally, I often think about applications of computers to > > medicine (for example, I just picked up a book on neural prostheses), > > but I'm not an M.D., and so while I might know something about the > > technology required, I know a lot less about what is reall needed. for > > example, the application Kevin mentions here is not one that would have > > occured to me. > > > > Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider field > > of compurters in medicine? > > > > --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>Not if I'm the alpha site! :-) > >> > >>Actually, this is an idea I haven't heard, but why not? I've heard > >>various suggestions that microrobots could find application in > >>medicine. > >> > >>--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>I've wondered if this technology could be used to > >>>create a self-ascending colonoscope. > >>> > >>>I've just got too many interests. :-) > >>> > >>>Kevin > > > > === > > Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure > > failure." > > > > --Kent Beck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies > > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, > > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to > > speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > . > > --- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to > speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members -- Nancy Anthracite --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/lis
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
At first I thought that might have something to do with Rick (you know, Toad), but I guess that's just the name of the ISP. It just seems to me that if the FDA (or whatever its international equivalents are) would be REALLY nervous about open source work on medical equipment, prostheses, etc. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Without the requirement of mathematical aesthetics a great many discoveries would not have been made." -- Albert Einstein On Jul 18, 2005, at 12:27 PM, Nancy Anthracite wrote: No doubt about it that there is - in fact, big time. Besides the commercial and research ventures, one thing that might interest you is this group, which gets requests for all sorts of engineering projects where a computer can be helpful. If working with VistA ever slows down for me, this would be high on my list of what to pursue next. http://www.toad.net/~vme/ --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Isn't WorldVistA more or less focused (by definition) on VistA? If an electrical engineer wants to have a go at building a better cochlear implant, what does that have to do with an EMR or a CPOE system? --- Joseph Dal Molin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider > field > > of compurters in medicine? > > Definitely there is on both counts, the Open Source Health Care > Alliance > (which is currently dormant) was founded back in 1999 with the > mission > of establishing a global community of interest in applying the open > source process to health informatics in general. We held 4 very > successful conferences...one of which was partly to blame for > bringing > together several of the founders of WorldVistA. I expect that we will > > see a rebirth of this organization...perhaps under a different name > in > the next 8-12 months. Both IMIA and AMIA have open source working > groups > too. > > I am not sure how beyond inviting people to participate in this list > and > WorldVistA meetings but the experience, lessons learned, and > insights of the Hardhats community would be extremely valuable to > anyone > pursuing computers in medicine. Frankly, the Hardhats have in many > ways > "been there and done that" with respect to many of the issues that > others are facingand this is valuable wisdom even for those that > are > not working with VistA. > > Joseph > > Greg Woodhouse wrote: > > Of course, I know Kevin isn't talking about a microrobot, it's just > > something his suggestion brought to mind. > > > > More generally, I often think about applications of computers to > > medicine (for example, I just picked up a book on neural > prostheses), > > but I'm not an M.D., and so while I might know something about the > > technology required, I know a lot less about what is reall needed. > for > > example, the application Kevin mentions here is not one that would > have > > occured to me. > > > > Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider > field > > of compurters in medicine? > > > > --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>Not if I'm the alpha site! :-) > >> > >>Actually, this is an idea I haven't heard, but why not? I've heard > >>various suggestions that microrobots could find application in > >>medicine. > >> > >>--- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >> > >>>I've wondered if this technology could be used to > >>>create a self-ascending colonoscope. > >>> > >>>I've just got too many interests. :-) > >>> > >>>Kevin > >>> > > > > > > > > > > === > > Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can > ensure failure." > > > > --Kent Beck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration > Strategies > > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, > > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to > > speed, fast. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > . > > > > > --- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration > Strategies > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to > speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
> Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider field > of compurters in medicine? Definitely there is on both counts, the Open Source Health Care Alliance (which is currently dormant) was founded back in 1999 with the mission of establishing a global community of interest in applying the open source process to health informatics in general. We held 4 very successful conferences...one of which was partly to blame for bringing together several of the founders of WorldVistA. I expect that we will see a rebirth of this organization...perhaps under a different name in the next 8-12 months. Both IMIA and AMIA have open source working groups too. I am not sure how beyond inviting people to participate in this list and WorldVistA meetings but the experience, lessons learned, and insights of the Hardhats community would be extremely valuable to anyone pursuing computers in medicine. Frankly, the Hardhats have in many ways "been there and done that" with respect to many of the issues that others are facingand this is valuable wisdom even for those that are not working with VistA. Joseph Greg Woodhouse wrote: Of course, I know Kevin isn't talking about a microrobot, it's just something his suggestion brought to mind. More generally, I often think about applications of computers to medicine (for example, I just picked up a book on neural prostheses), but I'm not an M.D., and so while I might know something about the technology required, I know a lot less about what is reall needed. for example, the application Kevin mentions here is not one that would have occured to me. Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider field of compurters in medicine? --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Not if I'm the alpha site! :-) Actually, this is an idea I haven't heard, but why not? I've heard various suggestions that microrobots could find application in medicine. --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've wondered if this technology could be used to create a self-ascending colonoscope. I've just got too many interests. :-) Kevin === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members . --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
No doubt about it that there is - in fact, big time. Besides the commercial and research ventures, one thing that might interest you is this group, which gets requests for all sorts of engineering projects where a computer can be helpful. If working with VistA ever slows down for me, this would be high on my list of what to pursue next. http://www.toad.net/~vme/ On Monday 18 July 2005 01:00 pm, Greg Woodhouse wrote: > Of course, I know Kevin isn't talking about a microrobot, it's just > something his suggestion brought to mind. > > More generally, I often think about applications of computers to > medicine (for example, I just picked up a book on neural prostheses), > but I'm not an M.D., and so while I might know something about the > technology required, I know a lot less about what is reall needed. for > example, the application Kevin mentions here is not one that would have > occured to me. > > Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider field > of compurters in medicine? > > --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Not if I'm the alpha site! :-) > > > > Actually, this is an idea I haven't heard, but why not? I've heard > > various suggestions that microrobots could find application in > > medicine. > > > > --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I've wondered if this technology could be used to > > > create a self-ascending colonoscope. > > > > > > I've just got too many interests. :-) > > > > > > Kevin > > === > Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure > failure." > > --Kent Beck > > > > > > > > > --- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to > speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members -- Nancy Anthracite --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Fundamentally the common ground for shared value lies in the process ie. open, peer reviewed, open, collaborative development. Greg Woodhouse wrote: Isn't WorldVistA more or less focused (by definition) on VistA? If an electrical engineer wants to have a go at building a better cochlear implant, what does that have to do with an EMR or a CPOE system? --- Joseph Dal Molin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider field > of compurters in medicine? Definitely there is on both counts, the Open Source Health Care Alliance (which is currently dormant) was founded back in 1999 with the mission of establishing a global community of interest in applying the open source process to health informatics in general. We held 4 very successful conferences...one of which was partly to blame for bringing together several of the founders of WorldVistA. I expect that we will see a rebirth of this organization...perhaps under a different name in the next 8-12 months. Both IMIA and AMIA have open source working groups too. I am not sure how beyond inviting people to participate in this list and WorldVistA meetings but the experience, lessons learned, and insights of the Hardhats community would be extremely valuable to anyone pursuing computers in medicine. Frankly, the Hardhats have in many ways "been there and done that" with respect to many of the issues that others are facingand this is valuable wisdom even for those that are not working with VistA. Joseph Greg Woodhouse wrote: Of course, I know Kevin isn't talking about a microrobot, it's just something his suggestion brought to mind. More generally, I often think about applications of computers to medicine (for example, I just picked up a book on neural prostheses), but I'm not an M.D., and so while I might know something about the technology required, I know a lot less about what is reall needed. for example, the application Kevin mentions here is not one that would have occured to me. Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider field of compurters in medicine? --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Not if I'm the alpha site! :-) Actually, this is an idea I haven't heard, but why not? I've heard various suggestions that microrobots could find application in medicine. --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I've wondered if this technology could be used to create a self-ascending colonoscope. I've just got too many interests. :-) Kevin === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members . --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members . --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Good grief...Do you mean we're actually going to talk about philosophy on this thread? You do raise an interesting point, because in many ways, software (or hardware) development is fundamentally creative. I often find that there is an interesting dynamic between me and my co-workers because I often solve problems in wayas that differ from the way they are accustomed to working (e.g., placing more emphasis on data structures). I certainly did not mean to advocate a "lone wolf" approach to development, but a collaborative, peer reviewed approach doesn't need to be one that discourages innovation. --- Joseph Dal Molin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Fundamentally the common ground for shared value lies in the > process > ie. open, peer reviewed, open, collaborative development. > === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Of course, I know Kevin isn't talking about a microrobot, it's just something his suggestion brought to mind. More generally, I often think about applications of computers to medicine (for example, I just picked up a book on neural prostheses), but I'm not an M.D., and so while I might know something about the technology required, I know a lot less about what is reall needed. for example, the application Kevin mentions here is not one that would have occured to me. Is there a place for Hardhats (or even open source) in the wider field of compurters in medicine? --- Greg Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not if I'm the alpha site! :-) > > Actually, this is an idea I haven't heard, but why not? I've heard > various suggestions that microrobots could find application in > medicine. > > --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I've wondered if this technology could be used to > > create a self-ascending colonoscope. > > > > I've just got too many interests. :-) > > > > Kevin > > === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Not if I'm the alpha site! :-) Actually, this is an idea I haven't heard, but why not? I've heard various suggestions that microrobots could find application in medicine. --- Kevin Toppenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've wondered if this technology could be used to > create a self-ascending colonoscope. > > I've just got too many interests. :-) > > Kevin > > > --- Gregory Woodhouse > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I remember it, too, along with robotic snakes, and > > other > > "interesting" approaches to locomotion. > > > > === > > Gregory Woodhouse > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > "The whole of science is nothing more than a > > refinement > > of everyday thinking." -- Albert Einstein > > > > > > On Jul 17, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Chris Richardson wrote: > > > > > I seem to remember a one-legged robot that hopped. > > It was funny to > > > watch, > > > amazingly quick, and a bit jumpy. It was kind of > > a box around a > > > pogo-stick. > > > Very cool. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux > > Migration Strategies > > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, > > straightforward articles, > > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you > > need to get up to > > speed, fast. > > > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > --- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration > Strategies > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to > speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > === Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
I've wondered if this technology could be used to create a self-ascending colonoscope. I've just got too many interests. :-) Kevin --- Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I remember it, too, along with robotic snakes, and > other > "interesting" approaches to locomotion. > > === > Gregory Woodhouse > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "The whole of science is nothing more than a > refinement > of everyday thinking." -- Albert Einstein > > > On Jul 17, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Chris Richardson wrote: > > > I seem to remember a one-legged robot that hopped. > It was funny to > > watch, > > amazingly quick, and a bit jumpy. It was kind of > a box around a > > pogo-stick. > > Very cool. > > > > > > > > > > --- > SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux > Migration Strategies > from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, > straightforward articles, > informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you > need to get up to > speed, fast. > http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
I remember it, too, along with robotic snakes, and other "interesting" approaches to locomotion. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." -- Albert Einstein On Jul 17, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Chris Richardson wrote: I seem to remember a one-legged robot that hopped. It was funny to watch, amazingly quick, and a bit jumpy. It was kind of a box around a pogo-stick. Very cool. --- SF.Net email is sponsored by: Discover Easy Linux Migration Strategies from IBM. Find simple to follow Roadmaps, straightforward articles, informative Webcasts and more! Get everything you need to get up to speed, fast. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=7477&alloc_id=16492&op=click ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
I seem to remember a one-legged robot that hopped. It was funny to watch, amazingly quick, and a bit jumpy. It was kind of a box around a pogo-stick. Very cool. - Original Message - From: "James Gray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 12:21 PM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > I think the problem is with 2 legged robots. > > Jim > > - Original Message - > From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > > > > Well, my son loves robots, and we've been looking at > > some very cool walking robots who have succeeded doing > > just what you mentioned. > > > > kevin > > > > --- Gregory Woodhouse > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Tell that to the folks at MIT. Trying to build a > >> robot capable of > >> walking by simply programming into it *how* it > >> should move its legs > >> is all but a hopeless undertaking. > >> > >> === > >> Gregory Woodhouse > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> "The most incomprehensible thing about > >> the world is that it is at all comprehensible." > >> --Albert Einstein (1879-1955) > >> > >> > >> On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:44 AM, HITS wrote: > >> > >> > Whether you are talking about uncertainty or > >> non-determinism as it > >> > relates > >> > to philosophy or computer science doesn't seem to > >> really matter. What > >> > matters is that you have an idea, a vision if you > >> will, of where > >> > you are > >> > wanting to go; a firm grasp on where you are now; > >> and a solid plan > >> > on how to > >> > get from point A to point B. Both uncertainty and > >> non-determinism are > >> > anathama to solid development (IMHO). Even the > >> most cloudy of > >> > visions can > >> > be clarified by clear intermediate goals that take > >> you toward the > >> > cloud. > >> > The closer you get to the cloud, the more the > >> mists separate; > >> > sometimes into > >> > more than one cloud; sometimes not. > >> > > >> > Bottom line - plan the work; work the plan. > >> > > >> > -Original Message- > >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > > >> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Behalf Of > >> > Gregory Woodhouse > >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:05 AM > >> > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > Subject: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > >> > > >> > > >> > I wonder if my post last night emphasizing the > >> difference between > >> > uncertainty and non-determinism (and the > >> similarities which I think > >> > tend to go unnoticed) wasn't a might too > >> philosophical. It reminds me > >> > of a time a week or so ago when I was sitting in a > >> cafe reading a > >> > book about provability and a woman started a > >> conversation with me (it > >> > turned out that she was a philosophy student at UC > >> Berkeley). > >> > Immediately, I could see the look in her friend's > >> face: "Oh no! Not > >> > again!" Ever since then, I've been wondering if > >> some formal training > >> > in philosophy might, perhaps ironically, turn out > >> to provide useful > >> > background for parts of computer science, if not > >> software > >> > development. As strange as that sounds, I believe > >> that thinking about > >> > the nature of the task of developing software > >> really can help to make > >> > one a better programmer. I can hear it now: This > >> guy is bonkers! > >> > Maybe so, but as a simple example, one question we > >> would do well to > >> > ask ourselves a little more often is, What am I > >> REALLY doing here? > >> > Basic design questions, such as whether a variable > >> pointer (or > >> > multiple inheritance) is the right way to solve a > >> given problem often > >> > hinge on the answer to a question such as this. > >> and theoretical as it > >> > may seem early on, it doesn't take much ti
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Yeah, I bet they have a neural net or two in there somewhere. Sorry to hear about your hand. Erb's palsy? Kevin --- Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You can bet that they aren't programmed by a > sequence of instructions > of the form > > Move joint A so many degrees > Move joint B twice that number > Now move joint C back by half the original number > etc. > > I have some nerve damage, not enough to keep me from > being able to > type (in the usual way), but enough so that I have > very limited > feedback from my left hand. When I was younger, I > really wanted to > learn to play a wind instrument and tried and tried, > but was never > able to do it. The gross movements needed to operate > a computer > keyboard are one thing, but playing an instrument > like the clarinet > or recorder is another thing entirely. > > === > Gregory Woodhouse > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "The policy of being too cautious is > the greatest risk of all." > --Jawaharlal Nehru > > > On Jul 13, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Kevin Toppenberg > wrote: > > > Well, my son loves robots, and we've been looking > at > > some very cool walking robots who have succeeded > doing > > just what you mentioned. > > > > kevin > > > > > > > > --- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With > Dual!' webinar happening > July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to > explore the latest in dual > core and dual graphics technology at this free one > hour event hosted by HP, > AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit > http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar happening July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in dual core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event hosted by HP, AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
comments below === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Without the requirement of mathematical aesthetics a great many discoveries would not have been made." -- Albert Einstein On Jul 13, 2005, at 11:22 AM, HITS wrote: Let me refer you to the Chaos Report (http://www.standishgroup.com/sample_research/chaos_1994_1.php) which tells us that the main reasons most IT projects fail (over-budget/late) is exactly that reason. I realize that this is the prevailing wisdom in software project management: I just don't happen to agree (at least not entirely). True enough, these are all factors that tend to lead to project failure, but why do we find it so hard to respond? The problem is not that managing large software projects is overwhelmingly difficult, but that the methods we use so often are lacking in adaptability. Getting a robot to walk is hard because it is so crucial to respond to feedback regarding balance, stress, etc. in a realtime fashion. What happens in project management? After an extensive analysis process someone develops a requirements document (possibly hundreds of pages long), and down the road, when an unanticipated flaw in the requirements document is found, everyone wrings their hands and says, "Oh no! do realize how much it is going to cost us to go back and change THAT?" It's like saying, when your robot starts to lose it's balance, that you need to step back and build a new robot. And then, let me ask you to step back and take a different perspective. Look at this like a business - a humanitarian business - but a business non-the-less. And what makes you think I have not considered the business perspective? As a founding member of Hardhats, I think of this as a discussion forum, not a development effort, but there is no question but that members of Hardhats are involved in development efforts. Certainly, software development is a resource intensive business, and it is necessary to make intelligent use of the resources that are available. That does not, however, mean that we will always agree on the question of how resources are best used. If we are going to provide accurate health information (what VistA is actually all about), then we MUST have definitive parameters from which to work. Not quite. It is necessary to be able to establish "definitive parameters", as you call them. This does not mean that they all must be known at the outset. Saying that it will cost more to change directions after we are almost done with development is exactly correct - and that is exactly the point. To an extent this is true, but the problem is greatly exacerbated by the extent to which the software we build is inflexible and difficult to adapt to new situations. Responding to change will never be free, but it does not have to be as costly as we imagine it to be. The fact that we have a vision - a desire to make healthcare more affordable, more accessible - does not mean we have to take an additional year or two to get SOMETHING out to the public. The beauty of VistA is that it is not a static program, but a living system, capable of being patched AFTER we have something out there that will benefit the public. All you need do is read the archives of this list to see that adapting Vista to new situations is certainly NOT easy. In fact, I believe the design of Vista often makes this harder, even much harder, than it ought to be. But even this need not remain static. I believe Vista can be made more adaptable. Okay, back to the business aspect - we have a bad reputation. We have the greatest product going in the arena of health care. We have the capability of providing patient information around the globe at Internet speeds to virtually and and all systems running, and we are having a hard time selling it. Why? Because we have the reputation of taking untold amounts of time to 1: make a decision; and 2: act on that decision. Okay, I'm pontificating now, so I'll quit. Let me leave you with this - more than once a group of people have come up with awesome ideas/ technology to benefit mankind and improve some aspect of life on this blue marble. And more than once, they have failed because they lapsed into esoteric diatribe instead of moving forward with practical applications. --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar happening July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in dual core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event hosted by HP, AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
You can bet that they aren't programmed by a sequence of instructions of the form Move joint A so many degrees Move joint B twice that number Now move joint C back by half the original number etc. I have some nerve damage, not enough to keep me from being able to type (in the usual way), but enough so that I have very limited feedback from my left hand. When I was younger, I really wanted to learn to play a wind instrument and tried and tried, but was never able to do it. The gross movements needed to operate a computer keyboard are one thing, but playing an instrument like the clarinet or recorder is another thing entirely. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The policy of being too cautious is the greatest risk of all." --Jawaharlal Nehru On Jul 13, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Kevin Toppenberg wrote: Well, my son loves robots, and we've been looking at some very cool walking robots who have succeeded doing just what you mentioned. kevin --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar happening July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in dual core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event hosted by HP, AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
I think that many of the units have accelerometers, that allow for balancing. Take for example this balancing 2-wheel bot: http://www.geology.smu.edu/~dpa-www/robo/nbot/ Kevin --- Aylesworth Marc A Ctr AFRL/IFSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Also the actual programs do more than tell it to > move it's legs. it also has > body movement and other factors that help it keep > it's balance. > > Thanks > > Marc Aylesworth > > C3I Associates > > AFRL/IFSE > > Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team > > 525 Brooks Rd > > Rome, NY 13441-4505 > > Tel:315.330.2422 > > Fax:315.330.7009 > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of James > Gray > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:21 PM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > > I think the problem is with 2 legged robots. > > Jim > > ----- Original Message - > From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > > > > Well, my son loves robots, and we've been looking > at > > some very cool walking robots who have succeeded > doing > > just what you mentioned. > > > > kevin > > > > --- Gregory Woodhouse > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Tell that to the folks at MIT. Trying to build a > >> robot capable of > >> walking by simply programming into it *how* it > >> should move its legs > >> is all but a hopeless undertaking. > >> > >> === > >> Gregory Woodhouse > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> "The most incomprehensible thing about > >> the world is that it is at all comprehensible." > >> --Albert Einstein (1879-1955) > >> > >> > >> On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:44 AM, HITS wrote: > >> > >> > Whether you are talking about uncertainty or > >> non-determinism as it > >> > relates > >> > to philosophy or computer science doesn't seem > to > >> really matter. What > >> > matters is that you have an idea, a vision if > you > >> will, of where > >> > you are > >> > wanting to go; a firm grasp on where you are > now; > >> and a solid plan > >> > on how to > >> > get from point A to point B. Both uncertainty > and > >> non-determinism are > >> > anathama to solid development (IMHO). Even the > >> most cloudy of > >> > visions can > >> > be clarified by clear intermediate goals that > take > >> you toward the > >> > cloud. > >> > The closer you get to the cloud, the more the > >> mists separate; > >> > sometimes into > >> > more than one cloud; sometimes not. > >> > > >> > Bottom line - plan the work; work the plan. > >> > > >> > -Original Message- > >> > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > > >> > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Behalf Of > >> > Gregory Woodhouse > >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:05 AM > >> > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > Subject: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > >> > > >> > > >> > I wonder if my post last night emphasizing the > >> difference between > >> > uncertainty and non-determinism (and the > >> similarities which I think > >> > tend to go unnoticed) wasn't a might too > >> philosophical. It reminds me > >> > of a time a week or so ago when I was sitting > in a > >> cafe reading a > >> > book about provability and a woman started a > >> conversation with me (it > >> > turned out that she was a philosophy student at > UC > >> Berkeley). > >> > Immediately, I could see the look in her > friend's > >> face: "Oh no! Not > >> > again!" Ever since then, I've been wondering if > >> some formal training > >> > in philosophy might, perhaps ironically, turn > out > >> to provide useful > >> > background for parts of computer science, if > not > >> software > >> > development. As strange as that sounds, I > believe > >> that thinking about > >> > the natur
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
I know, and its amazing what they are doing now. First, sony's QRIO model: http://news.sel.sony.com/digitalimages/photo?photo_id=155098 (if you search around the sony site there have been good videos of QRIO in the past) http://news.com.com/2100-1041-5090196.html?tag=nl Then there is Toyota's robot that can walk and play the trumpet. http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/special/robot/ Then there is Honda's Asimo http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/ The site has a movie of the robot running in an airport. These are not your father's robots. Technology is definately moving forward in robots. As soon as a killer app arrives for robots, we will see an explosion of units in the world. Kevin --- James Gray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think the problem is with 2 legged robots. > > Jim > > - Original Message - > From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > > > > Well, my son loves robots, and we've been looking > at > > some very cool walking robots who have succeeded > doing > > just what you mentioned. > > > > kevin > > > > --- Gregory Woodhouse > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Tell that to the folks at MIT. Trying to build a > >> robot capable of > >> walking by simply programming into it *how* it > >> should move its legs > >> is all but a hopeless undertaking. > >> > >> === > >> Gregory Woodhouse > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> "The most incomprehensible thing about > >> the world is that it is at all comprehensible." > >> --Albert Einstein (1879-1955) > >> > >> > >> On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:44 AM, HITS wrote: > >> > >> > Whether you are talking about uncertainty or > >> non-determinism as it > >> > relates > >> > to philosophy or computer science doesn't seem > to > >> really matter. What > >> > matters is that you have an idea, a vision if > you > >> will, of where > >> > you are > >> > wanting to go; a firm grasp on where you are > now; > >> and a solid plan > >> > on how to > >> > get from point A to point B. Both uncertainty > and > >> non-determinism are > >> > anathama to solid development (IMHO). Even the > >> most cloudy of > >> > visions can > >> > be clarified by clear intermediate goals that > take > >> you toward the > >> > cloud. > >> > The closer you get to the cloud, the more the > >> mists separate; > >> > sometimes into > >> > more than one cloud; sometimes not. > >> > > >> > Bottom line - plan the work; work the plan. > >> > > >> > -Original Message- > >> > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > > >> > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Behalf Of > >> > Gregory Woodhouse > >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:05 AM > >> > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > Subject: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > >> > > >> > > >> > I wonder if my post last night emphasizing the > >> difference between > >> > uncertainty and non-determinism (and the > >> similarities which I think > >> > tend to go unnoticed) wasn't a might too > >> philosophical. It reminds me > >> > of a time a week or so ago when I was sitting > in a > >> cafe reading a > >> > book about provability and a woman started a > >> conversation with me (it > >> > turned out that she was a philosophy student at > UC > >> Berkeley). > >> > Immediately, I could see the look in her > friend's > >> face: "Oh no! Not > >> > again!" Ever since then, I've been wondering if > >> some formal training > >> > in philosophy might, perhaps ironically, turn > out > >> to provide useful > >> > background for parts of computer science, if > not > >> software > >> > development. As strange as that sounds, I > believe > >> that thinking about > >> > the nature of the task of developing software > >> really can help to make > >> > one a better programmer. I can hear it now: > This > >> guy is bonkers! > >> > Maybe so, but as a simple example, one question >
RE: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Dear HITS: Your coments are useful but they do not go far enough in that they must state that the investment of resources by a Supplier to reconfigure VistA to serve general non-VA enterprises will require statement of clear targets (Functions, data, behavior, technology) that both Suppliers and Acquirers (Customers!) clearly recognize. These clear targets must come from the using beneficiaries who are members of various healthcare professional specialties. These specialites are only partly oriented to both the need and the action steps; this has partly caused the present public lamentations about healthcare being asleep at the switch while the other part has been the Suppliers wanting to sell what they already have without any goals as to where it may be going (because of the lack of clear targets). The VA has partly incorporated some of the needed common conventions that will help clarify targets but few clearly understand both the conceptual content and the implementing technologic approach. The VistA disseminators must address both of these areas of deficiency and adopt an "Enterprise View, Life Cycle principles (including the Zachman Framework approach). The material is there and, you are right, we must not "Wait for Godot" but must make the effort and get the material effectively organized to potential Acquirers to understand what they must do and what others will do. I will say though that there is much in the hopper that has not been described and I believe that efforts are headed in the proper direction. The key is to probe how to inform the VistA community of how these steps are converging and what more can be done in both convergence and information dissemination. Several of us for years have said that the "Bottom of this iceberg is education/information, not technology". You know the WV organization Officers - work through them and much will happen. Arden W. Forrey PhD Dept of Restorative Dentistry University of Washington School of Dentistry 206-616-1875 Phone 206-543-7783 FAX On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, HITS wrote: Let me refer you to the Chaos Report (http://www.standishgroup.com/sample_research/chaos_1994_1.php) which tells us that the main reasons most IT projects fail (over-budget/late) is exactly that reason. And then, let me ask you to step back and take a different perspective. Look at this like a business - a humanitarian business - but a business non-the-less. If we are going to provide accurate health information (what VistA is actually all about), then we MUST have definitive parameters from which to work. Saying that it will cost more to change directions after we are almost done with development is exactly correct - and that is exactly the point. The fact that we have a vision - a desire to make healthcare more affordable, more accessible - does not mean we have to take an additional year or two to get SOMETHING out to the public. The beauty of VistA is that it is not a static program, but a living system, capable of being patched AFTER we have something out there that will benefit the public. Okay, back to the business aspect - we have a bad reputation. We have the greatest product going in the arena of health care. We have the capability of providing patient information around the globe at Internet speeds to virtually and and all systems running, and we are having a hard time selling it. Why? Because we have the reputation of taking untold amounts of time to 1: make a decision; and 2: act on that decision. Okay, I'm pontificating now, so I'll quit. Let me leave you with this - more than once a group of people have come up with awesome ideas/technology to benefit mankind and improve some aspect of life on this blue marble. And more than once, they have failed because they lapsed into esoteric diatribe instead of moving forward with practical applications. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gregory Woodhouse Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 10:16 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? I guess I owe you a better response than that. In the post mortem of virtually every project with which I've been involved, there have been complaints of "scope creep" or inadequate analysis. It seems as if we believe that, through a herculean effort, we can anticipate every eventually, every feature the user will need to be able to use the system productively, every possible risk that might hamper the project's success, every possible platform or personnel problem, and so forth. That's just not realistic. We can (and should) plan, but in practice, that plan simply will not account for everything. So what do we do? Well, there's the old 50% rule, which may be okay for estimating timelines, but what if you choose an architecture that makes it difficult to adapt to change? It is often sa
RE: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Also the actual programs do more than tell it to move it's legs. it also has body movement and other factors that help it keep it's balance. Thanks Marc Aylesworth C3I Associates AFRL/IFSE Joint Battlespace Infosphere Team 525 Brooks Rd Rome, NY 13441-4505 Tel:315.330.2422 Fax:315.330.7009 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Gray Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 3:21 PM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? I think the problem is with 2 legged robots. Jim - Original Message - From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > Well, my son loves robots, and we've been looking at > some very cool walking robots who have succeeded doing > just what you mentioned. > > kevin > > --- Gregory Woodhouse > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Tell that to the folks at MIT. Trying to build a >> robot capable of >> walking by simply programming into it *how* it >> should move its legs >> is all but a hopeless undertaking. >> >> === >> Gregory Woodhouse >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> "The most incomprehensible thing about >> the world is that it is at all comprehensible." >> --Albert Einstein (1879-1955) >> >> >> On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:44 AM, HITS wrote: >> >> > Whether you are talking about uncertainty or >> non-determinism as it >> > relates >> > to philosophy or computer science doesn't seem to >> really matter. What >> > matters is that you have an idea, a vision if you >> will, of where >> > you are >> > wanting to go; a firm grasp on where you are now; >> and a solid plan >> > on how to >> > get from point A to point B. Both uncertainty and >> non-determinism are >> > anathama to solid development (IMHO). Even the >> most cloudy of >> > visions can >> > be clarified by clear intermediate goals that take >> you toward the >> > cloud. >> > The closer you get to the cloud, the more the >> mists separate; >> > sometimes into >> > more than one cloud; sometimes not. >> > >> > Bottom line - plan the work; work the plan. >> > >> > -Original Message- >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > >> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Behalf Of >> > Gregory Woodhouse >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:05 AM >> > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net >> > Subject: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? >> > >> > >> > I wonder if my post last night emphasizing the >> difference between >> > uncertainty and non-determinism (and the >> similarities which I think >> > tend to go unnoticed) wasn't a might too >> philosophical. It reminds me >> > of a time a week or so ago when I was sitting in a >> cafe reading a >> > book about provability and a woman started a >> conversation with me (it >> > turned out that she was a philosophy student at UC >> Berkeley). >> > Immediately, I could see the look in her friend's >> face: "Oh no! Not >> > again!" Ever since then, I've been wondering if >> some formal training >> > in philosophy might, perhaps ironically, turn out >> to provide useful >> > background for parts of computer science, if not >> software >> > development. As strange as that sounds, I believe >> that thinking about >> > the nature of the task of developing software >> really can help to make >> > one a better programmer. I can hear it now: This >> guy is bonkers! >> > Maybe so, but as a simple example, one question we >> would do well to >> > ask ourselves a little more often is, What am I >> REALLY doing here? >> > Basic design questions, such as whether a variable >> pointer (or >> > multiple inheritance) is the right way to solve a >> given problem often >> > hinge on the answer to a question such as this. >> and theoretical as it >> > may seem early on, it doesn't take much time >> trying to support or >> > enhance the code you've written before it becomes >> clear that the >> > question was really a practical one, after all. >> > >> > === >> > Gregory Woodhouse >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > >> > "D
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
I think the problem is with 2 legged robots. Jim - Original Message - From: "Kevin Toppenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? Well, my son loves robots, and we've been looking at some very cool walking robots who have succeeded doing just what you mentioned. kevin --- Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Tell that to the folks at MIT. Trying to build a robot capable of walking by simply programming into it *how* it should move its legs is all but a hopeless undertaking. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955) On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:44 AM, HITS wrote: > Whether you are talking about uncertainty or non-determinism as it > relates > to philosophy or computer science doesn't seem to really matter. What > matters is that you have an idea, a vision if you will, of where > you are > wanting to go; a firm grasp on where you are now; and a solid plan > on how to > get from point A to point B. Both uncertainty and non-determinism are > anathama to solid development (IMHO). Even the most cloudy of > visions can > be clarified by clear intermediate goals that take you toward the > cloud. > The closer you get to the cloud, the more the mists separate; > sometimes into > more than one cloud; sometimes not. > > Bottom line - plan the work; work the plan. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of > Gregory Woodhouse > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:05 AM > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > Subject: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > > > I wonder if my post last night emphasizing the difference between > uncertainty and non-determinism (and the similarities which I think > tend to go unnoticed) wasn't a might too philosophical. It reminds me > of a time a week or so ago when I was sitting in a cafe reading a > book about provability and a woman started a conversation with me (it > turned out that she was a philosophy student at UC Berkeley). > Immediately, I could see the look in her friend's face: "Oh no! Not > again!" Ever since then, I've been wondering if some formal training > in philosophy might, perhaps ironically, turn out to provide useful > background for parts of computer science, if not software > development. As strange as that sounds, I believe that thinking about > the nature of the task of developing software really can help to make > one a better programmer. I can hear it now: This guy is bonkers! > Maybe so, but as a simple example, one question we would do well to > ask ourselves a little more often is, What am I REALLY doing here? > Basic design questions, such as whether a variable pointer (or > multiple inheritance) is the right way to solve a given problem often > hinge on the answer to a question such as this. and theoretical as it > may seem early on, it doesn't take much time trying to support or > enhance the code you've written before it becomes clear that the > question was really a practical one, after all. > > === > Gregory Woodhouse > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure > failure." > > --Kent Beck > > > > --- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar > happening > July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in > dual > core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event > hosted by HP, > AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > --- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar > happening > July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in > dual > core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event > hosted by HP, > AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing list > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar happening July 14 at 8
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Well, my son loves robots, and we've been looking at some very cool walking robots who have succeeded doing just what you mentioned. kevin --- Gregory Woodhouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tell that to the folks at MIT. Trying to build a > robot capable of > walking by simply programming into it *how* it > should move its legs > is all but a hopeless undertaking. > > === > Gregory Woodhouse > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "The most incomprehensible thing about > the world is that it is at all comprehensible." > --Albert Einstein (1879-1955) > > > On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:44 AM, HITS wrote: > > > Whether you are talking about uncertainty or > non-determinism as it > > relates > > to philosophy or computer science doesn't seem to > really matter. What > > matters is that you have an idea, a vision if you > will, of where > > you are > > wanting to go; a firm grasp on where you are now; > and a solid plan > > on how to > > get from point A to point B. Both uncertainty and > non-determinism are > > anathama to solid development (IMHO). Even the > most cloudy of > > visions can > > be clarified by clear intermediate goals that take > you toward the > > cloud. > > The closer you get to the cloud, the more the > mists separate; > > sometimes into > > more than one cloud; sometimes not. > > > > Bottom line - plan the work; work the plan. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of > > Gregory Woodhouse > > Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:05 AM > > To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > Subject: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? > > > > > > I wonder if my post last night emphasizing the > difference between > > uncertainty and non-determinism (and the > similarities which I think > > tend to go unnoticed) wasn't a might too > philosophical. It reminds me > > of a time a week or so ago when I was sitting in a > cafe reading a > > book about provability and a woman started a > conversation with me (it > > turned out that she was a philosophy student at UC > Berkeley). > > Immediately, I could see the look in her friend's > face: "Oh no! Not > > again!" Ever since then, I've been wondering if > some formal training > > in philosophy might, perhaps ironically, turn out > to provide useful > > background for parts of computer science, if not > software > > development. As strange as that sounds, I believe > that thinking about > > the nature of the task of developing software > really can help to make > > one a better programmer. I can hear it now: This > guy is bonkers! > > Maybe so, but as a simple example, one question we > would do well to > > ask ourselves a little more often is, What am I > REALLY doing here? > > Basic design questions, such as whether a variable > pointer (or > > multiple inheritance) is the right way to solve a > given problem often > > hinge on the answer to a question such as this. > and theoretical as it > > may seem early on, it doesn't take much time > trying to support or > > enhance the code you've written before it becomes > clear that the > > question was really a practical one, after all. > > > > === > > Gregory Woodhouse > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design > failure can ensure > > failure." > > > > --Kent Beck > > > > > > > > > --- > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More > With Dual!' webinar > > happening > > July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to > explore the latest in > > dual > > core and dual graphics technology at this free one > hour event > > hosted by HP, > > AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit > http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > > > > --- > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More > With Dual!' webinar > > happening > > July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to > explore the latest in > > dual > > core and dual graphics technology at this free one > hour event > > hosted by HP, > > AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit > http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar > > ___ > > Hardhats-members mailing list > > Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members > > > > > > --- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With > Dual!' webinar happening > July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to > explore the latest in dual > core and dual graphics technology at this free one > hour event hosted by HP, > AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit > http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar > ___ > Hardhats-members mailing
RE: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Let me refer you to the Chaos Report (http://www.standishgroup.com/sample_research/chaos_1994_1.php) which tells us that the main reasons most IT projects fail (over-budget/late) is exactly that reason. And then, let me ask you to step back and take a different perspective. Look at this like a business - a humanitarian business - but a business non-the-less. If we are going to provide accurate health information (what VistA is actually all about), then we MUST have definitive parameters from which to work. Saying that it will cost more to change directions after we are almost done with development is exactly correct - and that is exactly the point. The fact that we have a vision - a desire to make healthcare more affordable, more accessible - does not mean we have to take an additional year or two to get SOMETHING out to the public. The beauty of VistA is that it is not a static program, but a living system, capable of being patched AFTER we have something out there that will benefit the public. Okay, back to the business aspect - we have a bad reputation. We have the greatest product going in the arena of health care. We have the capability of providing patient information around the globe at Internet speeds to virtually and and all systems running, and we are having a hard time selling it. Why? Because we have the reputation of taking untold amounts of time to 1: make a decision; and 2: act on that decision. Okay, I'm pontificating now, so I'll quit. Let me leave you with this - more than once a group of people have come up with awesome ideas/technology to benefit mankind and improve some aspect of life on this blue marble. And more than once, they have failed because they lapsed into esoteric diatribe instead of moving forward with practical applications. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gregory Woodhouse Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 10:16 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? I guess I owe you a better response than that. In the post mortem of virtually every project with which I've been involved, there have been complaints of "scope creep" or inadequate analysis. It seems as if we believe that, through a herculean effort, we can anticipate every eventually, every feature the user will need to be able to use the system productively, every possible risk that might hamper the project's success, every possible platform or personnel problem, and so forth. That's just not realistic. We can (and should) plan, but in practice, that plan simply will not account for everything. So what do we do? Well, there's the old 50% rule, which may be okay for estimating timelines, but what if you choose an architecture that makes it difficult to adapt to change? It is often said that the further along the development cycle you are, the more expensive change is. (It costs more to make design changes than changes to requirements, more to modify code than to make design changes before coding starts, and so on.) There's a lot of truth to that, but could it simply be an artifact of the way we traditionally develop software? If we choose an implementation strategy where design is "locked in" once we start to code, then change will be more expensive than if we use an approach which is more flexible. That is not impossible, not even all that difficult, but it is something we have not traditionally done, given our "Just make it work" attitude (or maybe philosophy?) === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." -- Albert Einstein On Jul 13, 2005, at 9:08 AM, Gregory Woodhouse wrote: > Tell that to the folks at MIT. Trying to build a robot capable of > walking by simply programming into it *how* it should move its legs > is all but a hopeless undertaking. > > === > Gregory Woodhouse > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "The most incomprehensible thing about > the world is that it is at all comprehensible." > --Albert Einstein (1879-1955) > > > On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:44 AM, HITS wrote: > > >> Whether you are talking about uncertainty or non-determinism as it >> relates >> to philosophy or computer science doesn't seem to really matter. >> What >> matters is that you have an idea, a vision if you will, of where >> you are >> wanting to go; a firm grasp on where you are now; and a solid plan >> on how to >> get from point A to point B. Both uncertainty and non-determinism >> are >> anathama to solid development (IMHO). Even the most cloudy of >> visions can >> be clarified by clear intermediate goals that take you toward the >> cloud. >> The closer you get to the cloud, the more the mists separate; >> sometime
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
I guess I owe you a better response than that. In the post mortem of virtually every project with which I've been involved, there have been complaints of "scope creep" or inadequate analysis. It seems as if we believe that, through a herculean effort, we can anticipate every eventually, every feature the user will need to be able to use the system productively, every possible risk that might hamper the project's success, every possible platform or personnel problem, and so forth. That's just not realistic. We can (and should) plan, but in practice, that plan simply will not account for everything. So what do we do? Well, there's the old 50% rule, which may be okay for estimating timelines, but what if you choose an architecture that makes it difficult to adapt to change? It is often said that the further along the development cycle you are, the more expensive change is. (It costs more to make design changes than changes to requirements, more to modify code than to make design changes before coding starts, and so on.) There's a lot of truth to that, but could it simply be an artifact of the way we traditionally develop software? If we choose an implementation strategy where design is "locked in" once we start to code, then change will be more expensive than if we use an approach which is more flexible. That is not impossible, not even all that difficult, but it is something we have not traditionally done, given our "Just make it work" attitude (or maybe philosophy?) === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking." -- Albert Einstein On Jul 13, 2005, at 9:08 AM, Gregory Woodhouse wrote: Tell that to the folks at MIT. Trying to build a robot capable of walking by simply programming into it *how* it should move its legs is all but a hopeless undertaking. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955) On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:44 AM, HITS wrote: Whether you are talking about uncertainty or non-determinism as it relates to philosophy or computer science doesn't seem to really matter. What matters is that you have an idea, a vision if you will, of where you are wanting to go; a firm grasp on where you are now; and a solid plan on how to get from point A to point B. Both uncertainty and non-determinism are anathama to solid development (IMHO). Even the most cloudy of visions can be clarified by clear intermediate goals that take you toward the cloud. The closer you get to the cloud, the more the mists separate; sometimes into more than one cloud; sometimes not. Bottom line - plan the work; work the plan. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gregory Woodhouse Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:05 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? I wonder if my post last night emphasizing the difference between uncertainty and non-determinism (and the similarities which I think tend to go unnoticed) wasn't a might too philosophical. It reminds me of a time a week or so ago when I was sitting in a cafe reading a book about provability and a woman started a conversation with me (it turned out that she was a philosophy student at UC Berkeley). Immediately, I could see the look in her friend's face: "Oh no! Not again!" Ever since then, I've been wondering if some formal training in philosophy might, perhaps ironically, turn out to provide useful background for parts of computer science, if not software development. As strange as that sounds, I believe that thinking about the nature of the task of developing software really can help to make one a better programmer. I can hear it now: This guy is bonkers! Maybe so, but as a simple example, one question we would do well to ask ourselves a little more often is, What am I REALLY doing here? Basic design questions, such as whether a variable pointer (or multiple inheritance) is the right way to solve a given problem often hinge on the answer to a question such as this. and theoretical as it may seem early on, it doesn't take much time trying to support or enhance the code you've written before it becomes clear that the question was really a practical one, after all. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar happening July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in dual core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event hosted by HP, AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Har
Re: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Tell that to the folks at MIT. Trying to build a robot capable of walking by simply programming into it *how* it should move its legs is all but a hopeless undertaking. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible." --Albert Einstein (1879-1955) On Jul 13, 2005, at 8:44 AM, HITS wrote: Whether you are talking about uncertainty or non-determinism as it relates to philosophy or computer science doesn't seem to really matter. What matters is that you have an idea, a vision if you will, of where you are wanting to go; a firm grasp on where you are now; and a solid plan on how to get from point A to point B. Both uncertainty and non-determinism are anathama to solid development (IMHO). Even the most cloudy of visions can be clarified by clear intermediate goals that take you toward the cloud. The closer you get to the cloud, the more the mists separate; sometimes into more than one cloud; sometimes not. Bottom line - plan the work; work the plan. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gregory Woodhouse Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:05 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? I wonder if my post last night emphasizing the difference between uncertainty and non-determinism (and the similarities which I think tend to go unnoticed) wasn't a might too philosophical. It reminds me of a time a week or so ago when I was sitting in a cafe reading a book about provability and a woman started a conversation with me (it turned out that she was a philosophy student at UC Berkeley). Immediately, I could see the look in her friend's face: "Oh no! Not again!" Ever since then, I've been wondering if some formal training in philosophy might, perhaps ironically, turn out to provide useful background for parts of computer science, if not software development. As strange as that sounds, I believe that thinking about the nature of the task of developing software really can help to make one a better programmer. I can hear it now: This guy is bonkers! Maybe so, but as a simple example, one question we would do well to ask ourselves a little more often is, What am I REALLY doing here? Basic design questions, such as whether a variable pointer (or multiple inheritance) is the right way to solve a given problem often hinge on the answer to a question such as this. and theoretical as it may seem early on, it doesn't take much time trying to support or enhance the code you've written before it becomes clear that the question was really a practical one, after all. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar happening July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in dual core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event hosted by HP, AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar happening July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in dual core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event hosted by HP, AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar happening July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in dual core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event hosted by HP, AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
RE: [Hardhats-members] philosophy???
Whether you are talking about uncertainty or non-determinism as it relates to philosophy or computer science doesn't seem to really matter. What matters is that you have an idea, a vision if you will, of where you are wanting to go; a firm grasp on where you are now; and a solid plan on how to get from point A to point B. Both uncertainty and non-determinism are anathama to solid development (IMHO). Even the most cloudy of visions can be clarified by clear intermediate goals that take you toward the cloud. The closer you get to the cloud, the more the mists separate; sometimes into more than one cloud; sometimes not. Bottom line - plan the work; work the plan. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gregory Woodhouse Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:05 AM To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Hardhats-members] philosophy??? I wonder if my post last night emphasizing the difference between uncertainty and non-determinism (and the similarities which I think tend to go unnoticed) wasn't a might too philosophical. It reminds me of a time a week or so ago when I was sitting in a cafe reading a book about provability and a woman started a conversation with me (it turned out that she was a philosophy student at UC Berkeley). Immediately, I could see the look in her friend's face: "Oh no! Not again!" Ever since then, I've been wondering if some formal training in philosophy might, perhaps ironically, turn out to provide useful background for parts of computer science, if not software development. As strange as that sounds, I believe that thinking about the nature of the task of developing software really can help to make one a better programmer. I can hear it now: This guy is bonkers! Maybe so, but as a simple example, one question we would do well to ask ourselves a little more often is, What am I REALLY doing here? Basic design questions, such as whether a variable pointer (or multiple inheritance) is the right way to solve a given problem often hinge on the answer to a question such as this. and theoretical as it may seem early on, it doesn't take much time trying to support or enhance the code you've written before it becomes clear that the question was really a practical one, after all. === Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure." --Kent Beck --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar happening July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in dual core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event hosted by HP, AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by the 'Do More With Dual!' webinar happening July 14 at 8am PDT/11am EDT. We invite you to explore the latest in dual core and dual graphics technology at this free one hour event hosted by HP, AMD, and NVIDIA. To register visit http://www.hp.com/go/dualwebinar ___ Hardhats-members mailing list Hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/hardhats-members
