RE: [ha-Safran]: Christmas and start of Hanukkah -- Is
Chanukah trivial? X-Original-To: Hasafran@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.0.16 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Spam-Score: 0.00 () [Tag at 5.00] X-CanItPRO-Stream: lists X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.146.216.132 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Donald Weinshank wrote: BUT BUT BUT the Rabbis did not include Maccabees in the canon. They certainly could have done so. The books of Daniel and Esther are from roughly the same period. Even though many modern critical scholars may consider Daniel and Esther to have been written close to the time of the Maccabees (2nd cent. B.C.E.), the rabbis considered those books to have been written closer to the periods they chronicle. I believe they give the cessation of prophecy to be in the time of Ezra (about the 5th cent. B.C.E.), and would not canonize anything after that period. The only way Maccabees could have made it in, would be for it to have been considered some sort of prophecy written four centuries before the events it describes, which the book itself does not claim. -Stanley Nachamie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages and opinions expressed on Hasafran are those of the individual author and are not necessarily endorsed by the AJL === Submissions for Ha-Safran, send to: Hasafran @ lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listproc @ lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 @ osu.edu Ha-Safran Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/hasafran%40lists.acs.ohio-state.edu/maillist.html AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org
RE: [ha-Safran]: Christmas and start of Hanukkah -- Is
Chanukah trivial? X-Original-To: hasafran@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.3.4 X-Spam-Score: 0.00 () [Tag at 5.00] X-CanItPRO-Stream: lists X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.146.216.12 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Avi Shoub again raises some issues with which I find myself in near-complete agreement. The Rabbis certainly considered the miracle of the oil to be the key element in Chanukah. THAT piece of the story is anything but trivial. That is what I think is meant by who did miracles for our ancestors in those days at this time (of the year). BUT BUT BUT the Rabbis did not include Maccabees in the canon. They certainly could have done so. The books of Daniel and Esther are from roughly the same period. Years ago, our Torah Study Group with Rabbi Morton Hoffman of Shaarey Zedek / East Lansing, Michigan decided well before Chanukah to study Maccabees, using the Oxford Apocrypha and the wonderful book by Elias Bickerman. After Shabbat morning services, during announcements, I stood up and said, I want to go on record as thanking the early Church Fathers for preserving Maccabees in the Greek. Without those two volumes, we would know nothing about this lovely holiday except for the gloss in the Talmud. However, after we had plowed through the books, I stood up and added, ...And I want to thank the Rabbis for not including the book in the canon because of its emphasis on internecine warfare. I stand by those statements. In short, Avi and I agree that there was a great miracle there but disagree on the extent to which the story of Chanukah serves as a model for Jewish living. Happy Chanukah. _ Dr. Don Weinshank Professor Emeritus Comp. Sci. Eng. 1520 Sherwood Ave., East Lansing MI 48823-1885 Ph. 517.337.1545 FAX 517.337.1665 http://www.cse.msu.edu/~weinshan Messages and opinions expressed on Hasafran are those of the individual author and are not necessarily endorsed by the Association of Jewish Libraries (AJL) === Submissions for Ha-Safran, send to: Hasafran @ lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listproc @ lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 @ osu.edu Ha-Safran Archives: Current: http://www.mail-archive.com/hasafran%40lists.acs.ohio-state.edu/maillist.html History: http://www.mail-archive.com/hasafran%40lists.acs.ohio-state.edu/history.html AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org
RE: [ha-Safran]: Christmas and start of Hanukkah
This is the subsequent posting, for which I have not yet received a copy. The issue is a complex one because of the way the Hebrew calendar is adjusted so that certain holidays cannot occur on certain dates and many other factors. Andre Rapp pointed out that I had given the correct answer but to the wrong question about lighting candles, i.e., not the question she was asking. The are really two questions. 1. In what years would one light the first candle on Xmas, which is the situation this year. Kislev25, the first day of Chanukah, falls on Monday, Dec. 26. therefore, one lights the first candle on Sunday evening, Dec. 25. 2. In what years would one light the first candle on Xmas-eve, Dec. 24? Here, Kislev 25 would have to fall on Dec. 25 so that the first candle would be the previous evening. Here is the screen grab from Penner's JCAL http://www.lespenner.com/ for clarification. = See attached JPG. (Sorry - no attachments possible - Yossi) QUESTION 1: 25 KISLEV FALLS ON DEC. 26. Light the first candle on Dec. 25. Kislev 25 and matching dates; candle lit previous evening Kislev 25, 5766 Mon December 26 2005 Thu December 26 2024 Wed December 26 2035 Sat December 26 2054 Sat December 26 2111 Mon December 26 2157 Wed December 26 2187 QUESTION 2: 25 KISLEV FALLS ON DEC. 25. Light the first candle on Dec. 24. Sun December 25 2016 Sat December 25 2027 Mon December 25 2073 Mon December 25 2130 Thu December 25 2149 Sun December 25 2168 Sat December 25 2179 Earliest date for Kislev 25: Nov. 28 Thu November 28 2013 Sun November 28 2032 Fri November 28 2070 Mon November 28 2089 Mon November 28 2146 Mon December 28 2195 Latest date for Kislev 25: Dec. 28 Mon December 28 2195 As I wrote to a friend today, This is an astonishingly trivial holiday for which no Hebrew text is reliably known. Maccabees 1 2 are known only from Greek texts. The quote we find in the Siddur is a Talmudic gloss. Be that as it may, I want to wish everybody a happy Chanukah / Chanukkah / Hanukah / Hannukkah / Whatever. _ Dr. Don Weinshank Professor Emeritus Comp. Sci. Eng. 1520 Sherwood Ave., East Lansing MI 48823-1885 Ph. 517.337.1545 FAX 517.337.1665 http://www.cse.msu.edu/~weinshan Messages and opinions expressed on Hasafran are those of the individual author and are not necessarily endorsed by the AJL === Submissions for Ha-Safran, send to: Hasafran @ lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listproc @ lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 @ osu.edu Ha-Safran Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/hasafran%40lists.acs.ohio-state.edu/maillist.html AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org
[ha-Safran]: Christmas and start of Hanukkah
I referred the question to a friend of mine who knows a great deal about the Jewish calendar. His response is below. Marga * Marga Hirsch 175 Upland Terrace Bala Cynwyd, PA 19004 610.668.9485 __ I'm pretty sure that the only time this CAN happen is on the 1st or 9th year of the 19-year cycle of Jewish leap years, which are the two latest years of the cycle with respect to the civil calendar. (If you divide the Jewish year by 19, the remainder has to be 1 or 9.) 5766 is the 9th year of the current cycle. But the Hanukkah/Christmas thing doesn't happen each time there's a year 1 or a year 9, due both to civil leap years and to the occasional need to add or subtract one day from the Jewish year. So what do you mean by falling on Christmas? If you mean that the first candle is on the 25th, then that will next happen in 5785 (2024, year 9) and in 5796 (2035, year 1). But if you also count the first candle being lit on Christmas Eve, then that will next happen on the next year 1: 5777 (2016). Furthermore, in 5804 (2043, year 9), the first candle will be on December 26th! That might be the latest possible start date for Hanukkah, I'm not sure. Of course, all of the above is invalid if either the mashiach comes before then, or if a gigantic meteor comes before then and disrupts all the astronomical calculations that have been done for the future. Though in either of these cases, whether Hanukkah and Christmas coincide or not will be the last thing on our minds. Messages and opinions expressed on Hasafran are those of the individual author and are not necessarily endorsed by the AJL === Submissions for Ha-Safran, send to: Hasafran @ lists.acs.ohio-state.edu SUBscribing, SIGNOFF commands send to: Listproc @ lists.acs.ohio-state.edu Questions, problems, complaints, compliments;-) send to: galron.1 @ osu.edu Ha-Safran Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/hasafran%40lists.acs.ohio-state.edu/maillist.html AJL HomePage http://www.JewishLibraries.org
